vincethe1

yea....i was raining tonight so i was drivin around for like an hour spinnin wheels and testin my vsa...or lack there of actually cuz i had it turned off...

but at the end...i decided to test it with the vsa turned on to see what it does...and that's when i crashed. I threw it into a turn and the stupid computer decided that insteda of lettin my car rotate thought it would be safer to try correcting my skid and keep me going straight in a civilized manner.... ofcourse i wasn't going too fast because i was testing how my vsa worked...but it seriously plowed me straight into a tree.... i hopped over a curb, and stopped into a small tree, but b4 that i knocked down a few wooden poles....i threw it into reverse trying to pull out, only to realize my engine had shut off....so i cranked it back into life and pulled out.

when i got out to see the damage...i was expecting more than i found, i didn't see anything at all at 1st...but when i got home and pulled out a light, it was still perfectly fine except i saw that i had cracked my bumper ...i looked under the car, and to see the wheels that hit the curb...but since i ran straight into the curb my tires ran over it instead of actually hitting it...so the suspension is in place and it's fine, drives normally, alignment isn't off...so that's good.

looked further into the undercarriage however and saw that i had slightly scraped my exhaust pipes into the concrete....but nothing major...just scratched & roughed up...so the car is fine and i realized i have a strong front end..but what sucks is that now my bumper is cracked and i'm eventually gonna need to get a new 1.

anybody thinkin of puttin a body kit on their TL and could sell me their NBP front bumper?? lol

Bearcat94

Probably.





Doubtful. I don't think VSA works like that. And it's can't "bail you out" of every situation.


Regardless, sounds like you're OK and minimal damage. Be careful out there.


Oh yeah, almost forgot:

phee

iTrader: (5)

wow, be prepared for the flames, i found it funny and im glad you took it in good humor. as long as yoru fine, i would have to say that you were testing your tires more than your vsa, but thats just my op.. funny story none the less and i give you mad props for owning up to your.....um..lack of better judgement.

oh yea.. better hope your insurance agent doesnt find this.

post the pics here
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170599

lusid

I would have never posted this. ....

ib18c1

iTrader: (6)

lol...u said lol in ur title...
but yeah, ive always turned my VSA off while canyon running, with it on, it's just like applying the brakes while turning, steering wont budge!

glad your ok....now that you have tested it...hopefully u wont do it again

vincethe1

lol, don't worry it's nothing worth even calling an accident, and i'm not calling my insurance for it since there's a $500 deducible and it would be useless...there's no accident report, no nothing.

the reason i posted this is just to state my experience with the vsa, to tell you guys what to be careful of....yes it was my mistake, but i was doing turns like that with the vsa off at higher speed and it was completely fine, because i can feel the limits of the car it was no problem...yes my tires suck, are way past worn out, and are not even made for the rain, but with that said, i've been pullin e-brakes around tunrns for atleast a 1/2 an hour b4 that, and i turned the vsa back on (default normal setting), and all i did i threw the wheel into a turn goin about 15....from there the vsa detected a skid...started blinking, and instead of letting the car roll through without breaks, it started applying brakes to clam the situation down...that was my downfall...because when you apply breaks in a turn in the rain like that, even at low speed the car will start oversteering excessivly...that's why you are NEVER supposed to use breaks in a turn..it's a racing law...you break b4 the turn, take the turn, and accelerate out of it.

my mistake is that i didn't expect the vsa to do that even though i know that that's it's job...it's a very good system if you know how to drive with it on, but because i always drive with it off i was used to controlling my own car and the vsa gave me input i wasn't expecting....it was stupid of me.

but with that siad, vsa could mess a good driver up...lets say you go into a slide with it off...you use corrective steering/turn into the skid and you correct the slide yourself...now imagine you are used to doing all that by urself and you got the hand of it....now you try that with vsa on, you put the car into the same skid, only now the car senses it and begins trying to correct it/help you out...it obviously can't correct your steering because it has no control over that...so it tries another method...it applys breaks to the corresponding wheel and with the breaking power of the corresponding wheels, it somewhat straightens your car up.

it is a very good system and it would help a lot of people out if they unintentionally start sliding because they have slipped on ice/oil, ect..but when you are intentionally trying to do a skid, it really intervenes with the driver and the car starts doing things that the driver does not naturally expect...i'm sure that vsa pulled that number on me since i was taking the exact corner at higher speed no problem b4, but by me undersestimating what vsa does, it's my fault for not accomidating for the vsa...

vincethe1

as for the car, it is perfectly fine, drives perfectly fine, all you can see from looking closely is a long crack in the bumper...but mabe a body shop cud glue it together and it'll be perfectly fine...i've heard of body shops repairing bumpers...not even the paint on it is chipped.

and obviously i'm completely fine....i mean if the car is fine, 99% of the time the driver will be too.

so no worries....it's just something stupid i did and that's how you learn from your mistakes...

vincethe1

yea man i always drive with it off too, and i wasn't used with it interfering with my driving input...ahah

but it's all good i'll just keep clicking it off when i start my car as i always have

vincethe1

so to anybody out there just be warned, vsa kind of fixes oversteer and slides, but causes understeer, espesially in bad weather conditions.

vincethe1

VSA is a very good system for the average driver (moms, grandmas, ppl that drive conservatively) but it's not for everyone....that's specifically why honda put a big old VSA OFF swich right there, because it's not for everybody...it's especially not for spitited driving

VAS is ment to fix driver errors, not driver intentional driving inputs. Even professional drivers that race ferarris around a track turn that stuff off, because although it's very cleaver stuff and can make a poor driver actually perform reasonably well..it's not for ppl who know what they're doing

VSA will help an average driver drive safer, break better, accelerate better, avoid accidents better, ect...

i tired the acceleration test, and with vsa off in the rain with my bad tires, i did a 10.7 second 0-60 with a bit of wheelspin (on purpose to test regular bad weather acceleration from a regualr driver)...then i tested it, floored, with the VSA ON, now that limited power emensly, because more power would equal wheelspin, but that shaved over a second, as expected...it did it in 9.5 seconds....but if you know what you're doing you can do that with the VSA off too.

this is why abs was invented too, it don't stop you faster but it lets you steer, which is exactly why they put it into production because they knew the average driver would NOT let go of the break in an emergency situation so abs is a lot safer to the average driver, but as for racer car drivers go, they manage with no abs just fine.

a driver can get used to any system, but the problem is that it takes practice, and a sudden change changes everything...

that's how Ayrton Senna died, one of, if not the greatest F1 drivers of all time died because they changed F1 rules and regulations to remove some active driver aids in F1 races....when they tweaked the cars with the new regulations, Ayron Senna was not used to that and didn't expect the drastic change, so he understeered into a wall at 130MPH and died...i'm sure that with advanced systems drivers can actually be better most times...but the vsa in the TL is neither as advanced as F1, neather as performance tuned...so it could help you out, or mess you up bad...which in my case is what happend...not blaiming it though, it was my fault for underestimating it's actions.

CL Platano

Are you related to Bush?

Malayalee King

iTrader: (1)

LOL that is funny

vincethe1

lol, why related to bush.....i'm sorry but i'm bad with politics...

vincethe1

P.S. i don't think pics are necessary since there is really not much to see besides a crack..that's not easy to see.

but i'll see if i can post some up tomorrow in the daylight, mabe that'll help seeing it a little bit better.

as for the Wrecked TL thread...i don't think i fit in there just yet lol

mabe i overexadurated a little with the title ahhahah

lavo

+1

ballinfizzle89

iTrader: (6)

+2

vincethe1

why because it incriminates me? lol

i posted this to share my experience on the road...i'm not gonna claim it on the insureance as i previously stated since i have a $500 deductible and that's far under that so it would be useless.

i didn't get a ticket for it because no cop was there....the car is totally fine...i have no porblem posting my story here of how i cracked my bumper, it's eductational and humorous...shit happens, this was almost nothing, thank god, but it taught me that the car does not handle the same with vsa on and now i know...imagine if i had done that at higher speed and hit the tree harder...so it's a lesson.

i went slow while testing with the vsa cuz usually i go through that corner with 25 not 15, and because i didn't know what the car cud do with vsa on, i understeered even with 15mph because the computers went crazy and the car started kicking abs all over the place, without me ever applying the breaks (i did at the end when i saw that i had passed the point of no return and that i was gonna eat it...so i straightend out the wheels to run over the curb instead of hitting it with my wheels turned and fucking up everything, and i slammed on the breaks to slow down the force of impact....and at the end the force of impct was so small it only put a crack across my bumper, so that's that, nothing big, but a lesson i have learned.

all i thought when it happend is "that's not gone well" lmao

MR1

Because the more you say here the less bright you sound IMHO. Kind of an expensive bumper car don't you think?

Test such as yours are usually done somewhere that there is no chance of hitting anything or doing damage.

vincethe1

agreed, but it wud't of happend, it just understeerd so excessively and unexpectily...but it's still my fault, yes. Then again, i've owned the car for 1.5 years, and previous cars...and that's the 1st time something like that's happend to me.

so now i know.

visuelz

Didn't Ayrton Senna die because his steering column snapped?

vincethe1

never heard that 1 b4, i've heard a rumor that he slipped on an oil spot but they said that wasn't it, plus when he crashed his wheels were fully turned left, so the steering column wudn't be it.

Bearcat94

http://www.google.com/search?hl=xx-e...on+Cause+Death

FTW

vincethe1

i've heard many rumors about that, some even said that it's cuz of the close realtion he had with honda that mclearen left from honda and went to mercedes...some blamed the honda engine...i doubt that was it.

then again, it says the steering column was "modified", not that it failed, so mabe he was used to a different steering ratio...as they state that his car would not have left the track if it wasn't for the steering column...

mabe it was suspension settings, mabe the car jumped up and lost traction...

elkayem

You want my NBP Type-S bumper?
It's abit damaged tho. lol

vincethe1

lol, 1st i don't think it'll fit, 2nd if it's damaged too there's no point haha

thing is though now that i think about it, there's no point of replacing it since i bet it can be easily repaired.....just glue the crack back together, polish it with filler and repaint it i guess.

Legend2TL

Ayrton Senna died when his Williams/Renault FW16 steering coloumn broke while taking a ~160MPH turn at Imola (his impact speed at the wall was ~130MPH). The day before the race Ayrton expressed his displeasure of the cockpit setup to Adrian Newey (Williams Chief Designer) and Patrick Head (Technical Director and Team co-owner). The instrument cluster view and steering wheel angle were not comfortable for Ayrton.

The day before the race the steering shaft was lengthened with new section of tubing and rewelded at the far end (near the rack and pinion unit). Immediately after the accident the long steering shaft is sitting on top of the chassis as shown in many pictures taken. The main basis of the manslaughter trail was this field retrofiting of the stering column/shaft modification.

Some others have claimed that the floorpan bottoming out (for maximum downforce at the fast Italian track) with the chosen rideheight was a factor but from camera footage it appears that there is no front wheel angle to indicate a understeer condition. From what I've read Williams never turned or released the onboard telemetry of the accident to the Italian officials. The rideheight theory is also very speculative since Damon Hill's car used the same ride height and torsion bars but some other suspension settings were different to suit his driving style.

JetJock

Quote:
"but with that siad, vsa could mess a good driver up"


You are NOT a good driver dude. No matter what you think, you're the reason Insurance Rates are so high for young male drivers. Stop playing race car driver in your TL before you hurt yourself or kill someone. Grow up!!

vincethe1

mabe i got the story a little off but the point is the same, he was one of the best drivers to date, and got messed up because he was not used to new tweaks....just as i suddenly turned vsa on and the car did what i did not expect it to do. It's the sudden change that suprises you.

JetJock

Your stupidity continues to baffle me. If you want to be a race car driver, that's GREAT....Take Driving Lessons from a Pro.

Do it on a track, not on the highway where you can hurt yourself....or someone else.

vincethe1

yea yea wise man, well i'm sick of people like you bitchin their asses off, i was in a completly empty parking lot one night at 2am, a woman saw me all the way from the street, and came to bitch at me...wtf was i doin that affected anyone? if i want to waste my tires/gas/money....then be it, she thinks she gonna fix the world with her narrow minded opinion......so i just told her to mind her own business and moved along.

i have never caused an accident in my 5 years of driving, nor have a record of anything so my insurance is prettly low....well no insurance is low but if i wanna drive my TL, i can afford it.

how is pullin the e-brake on some turns and sliding around at 15-20mph gonna injure or kill anyone? I obviously do it with noone around, part of the reason is because i don't want to scare anybody or anything, the other part is becase there is always the danger of a cop around, so no car is in sight when i do that stuff, then the speed is so low that even if you hit something the car is gonna get the damage, not the person.

you know who kills people on the road? people not paying attention and don't know how to drive....it's people that get drunk/high and drive, run red lights, pull out infront of vehicles too close becasuse their judgement is impared, not knowing what to do to correct a skid in bad weather conditions so they fly out into oncomming traffic....that's what causes fatal car crashes.....not a kid sliding around a 90 degree turn at 10mph looking around for cops...

then again i never actually stated being a good driver, how can i when i just told you i hit a tree, the image goes down the drain, but i don't care cuz i know what i'm capable of and one mess up in the past 1000s of times i've went out in the rain is a mistake that i actually learned something from.

my whole point was that something like vsa could interfere and cause even a very good driver to mess up if they are not used to it and basically forget it's there. It just changes everything.

vincethe1

never mentioned a single thing about a highway in any of my posts.

Evader

I admire the fact that you're willing to come forward and admit your mistake, however you have to admit your stupidity too. Blaming this incident on the VSA is ridiculous, yes our cars act differently with VSA on than when it's off. That being said you should know how to drive a car and if you want to fell the experience of what she can really do take her to the track, not in a public lot. As far as your comment above, you were obviously not in an empty lot if obviously someone easily saw you acting like an idiot in the lot. Sorry for the flame but I think you should save your stupidness for the track. Nothing personal bro, just my on your situation.

Drive Safe

vincethe1

yea, the parking lot thing was at another time and nothing happend there...and i did admit my mistake for not getting used to the vsa first...but what it did in a short story is that i started taking the turn (remeber it was very wet, and my tires are very worn out), and it started kilidng a little, so the vsa saw that as a potential threat and started to apply breaks to correct me....now we all know a tire has only so much traction, it can use it to steer, break, or accelerate....at the moment the tire was using all it's traction to steer, when the breaks were applyed by the vsa the tire started using a good amount of the traction to brake, and so the traction used for the steering greatly decreased...and that's what caused the understeer, simple physics...that's why in racing, the rules are to always brake before the turn, and let the car freely glide through it, if it was rwd then you could add some power too because that's the back wheels and the front are still using their traction to steer...my mistake and downfall is that i didn't apply the breaks, but kind of ignored the fact that the vsa would.

floor a fwd through a corner, it'll start understeering, break, the same will happen. simple physics, a tire cannot suddenly get a burst of traction, it has to balance what it has.

as i said, VSA is a good system, but there is a reason honda put a big VSA OFF shitch right there.

btw no problem bro, everyone's got an opinon, and i don't take anything personal from someone i don't know anyways....no point of that.

phee

iTrader: (5)

but i have a feeling this is gunna get locked before they flam any further, i was praying for my shit to get locked when all these guys bashed me about my understeer. i guess everyone has to learn the hard way.

geezer31

The devices that slow and stop cars are called brakes, not breaks. Bad breaks are what you get when you play games with your car in the rain.

FiveLiterCheater

I usually just leave VSA on unless i'm in the mood to do some spirited driving. I'm pretty sure it saved my ass a couple times though...

Bearcat94

This is just not true. You cannot try to make your mistake "OK" by claiming it happens to the best too.

IT NEVER HAPPENED that way for Senna. His steering column BROKE mid-turn - that's not a "tweak" he was unaccomstomed to - that is a mechanical FAILURE.

You can see it happen on the video used as evidence at trial. You can watch the steering wheel FALL more than 2 inches just before going off course. There's is telemetry as well. It clearly show 2.5 - 3.5 Lateral G's, then, suddenly, the Lateral G's go to near 0.

The FACT is you were driving too fast for conditions (wet with worn tires) and lost it. You got lucky.

Legend2TL

This is all so true, the "new" steering coloumn/shaft weld broke in mid-turn (according to the Italian proscutors who used former racing engineers as their expert testimony). The FW16 had no techno gadgets in the handling and braking systems, as the FW14 and FW15 did (active suspension, traction control, ABS, stability control?). It had nothing to do with the change in regulations or elimination of the electronics aids of the 1993 and earlier F1 cars.

The crash the day before Senna's accident that took the life of Roland Ratzenburger was also similar to Senna's in that a piece of front aerodynamic wing broke off right before a turn. He also crashed at a high angle into the wall at high speed.

Both accidents illustrate the extreme light and sometimes fragile nature of racing machines.

vincethe1

again, mabe i misunderstood but all i read from what you posted is a modified steering column, and i didnt see anywhere written that it had snapped/failed.

vincethe1

ok, here's the pics so you can all see exactly what happend.

as you can see from the 1st pic, if i had gone in that turn WAY too fast to understeer THAT much, i would of been going so fast i would of crashed into the house...that looks like atleast 45mph to me....but instead i was going 15, and turned the steering fast, and the vsa plowd me straight on, it didn't really even try turning...as you can see it turned a very little bit, i've done this turn faster at about 25mph and i can take it no problem....not when messing around with vsa however.