TL_6SPD

He did have a GS400. That is much better than a TL any day.

SilverJ

I wouldn't consider RWD or FWD a "class" --- I think class of car I tend to think
Sports Luxury Sedans in the same price range. and if you consider the G35 in the BMW class I would say its the BMW 3 series if anything......I'll take the tl.

Aquineas

Then based on price, a loaded TL and a loaded Maxima are within a couple hundred dollars of each other, and therefore, are in the same class.

EZZ

A TL drives more like a Maxima then it does a G35. Ever drive a G...there is no substitute for RWD.

SilverJ

I shopped the G35 and yes I drove it. Didnt do anything for me...I would prefer having a FWD car in the snowy area I live in. I would definitely take AWD over FWD...but not RWD over FWD. Besides...the g35 exterior and interior espescially are not in the same class as the TL IMHO. In addition...the TL manual trans is much better than the max or the g35.
So lets see... looks, interior, better shifting I would take over RWD. When I say the max is not in the TL's class I am referring to its odd looks and cheesy interior. The leather seats are like vinyl. Eww...

EZZ

I completely agree in that the exterior and the interior of the G35 is no comparison to the TL. The TL blows it away in those respects. I test drove a BMW too and in comparison to the TL, the BMW's handling absolutely blew it away. The G35 was very very comparable to the BMW and just plain faster. G35 handling blew away the TL. Absolutely no comparison IMHO. Where I live, RWD > AWD. No need for AWD in so-cal.

boltjames

Acura is a luxury brand. Nissan is a pedestrian brand.

The Maxima is not in the same league as the Acura. Period, end of story. You're delusional if you think people are going "oooh....look at that Maxima....it's a luxury car" as you drive by. What they're saying is "nice car....better looking than my Camry, but not worth that much more."

What a joke.

BJ

Xpditor

Thanks for wanting to enlighten me. But it's unnecessary. I am very familiar with the specs. I had a 2004 Maxima SE for a couple of weeks and I have owned two Maximas.

I have already stated that I love them and the VQ35 Engine. But, after examining many cars, I wanted to step up into a fundamentally better car. I know some people catagorize cars based on their price. The "you get what you pay for" crowd who seems to have more money than time to compare. I'm not one of those.

I look at build quality, performance, style, materials, reliability, comfort, quiet, fun-to-drive and value. If a Kia fulfilled those requirements: fine. I'm not hung up on names and status games.

Having driven both a 2004 Maxima and my TL for about 1,000 mile each (more or less), I can say the TL is in a different class. I consider it a luxury car based on its qualities - not on its price and status. Every car and consumer magazine seems to agree with me for what that's worth. If you spent a day driving one, you couldn't come up with any other conclusion - unless you go solely by the price tag or country of origin.

If you want to talk about price (apparantly you do) a 2004 Maxima starts at $27,100. A Navi TL: $35,195. That's a $8,195 difference in base price. I fail to follow your statement that they are in the same price catagory. Here are some standard features of the TL that you don't get with the Maxima: leather, VSA,Sun roof, Navigation, Limited slip differential, upgraded radio, XM radio, DVD-Audio, Floor Mats, voice command, Xenon HID headlights, double wishbone suspension all around, (I could go on and on).

A lot of that stuff is optional on the Max. If you spec'd a Max and put every option available on it, you still wouldn't have all the features of a TL. You would add almost $8,000 to the base price but you would still be below the MSRP of a base TL with Navi ($35,195).

Now, you wanna tell me what standard features the Max has that the TL doesn't? The glass panel in the roof that runs front to back?

I love the Maxima's straight-line performance but it is ragged, rough, noisy, and you have to fight the torque steer. The TL has a little better numbers, but does it quietly and smoothly, with much less torque steer. I speak from personal experience, not theory or anecdotes told on the Internet. That's because the TL is a sporty LUXURY car. If you go on the major enthusiast magazine's websites, like Car and Driver, and look up Road Tests, check the Sedan-Luxury catagory and you will not only find the TL and RL there, you will find that the TL is very highly rated among that group. You will not find a Nissan Maxima in the sedan-luxury group.

I find it "interesting" that most of the posters who disparage the TL or say it's not a luxury car or not in the same class as a Lexus ES330 or a BMW 3 series, have something in common: they don't own a 2004 TL. Some don't even have an Acura of any kind. Others have older model TL's.

I'm not talking about the sqeaks and rattles complaints. You can find those on every owner's groups forums. That's where people go to vent. And, that's a useful function, IMO. That's what I do.

And to say a TL is not in the same "class" as a G35 sedan? Puleeeeze! They are direct competitors although I suspect that more TL's are being sold because people care what their cars look like. Given a choice of RWD or good looks and a beautiful interior, I chose the TL.

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Aquineas

First of all, Nissan's decision to include features as options vs. standard shouldn't really be an issue. What you're saying is that because the options aren't standard on the Maxima, that somehow the TL is classier. You yourself mention that it's possible to option the Maxima to very close to the TL, and end up with a very similar feature set. Lexus also does this with their ES; charges a set base price and then leaves many things optional. Does that mean the ES is a lesser vehicle than the TL also? The fact of the matter is, price wise and option wise, you'll spend more or less the same amount of money for either car for the same options.

Nitpicking here, but you asked...
Telescoping steering wheel
auto-dim headlights
RDS radio

I grant you the torque steer argument. But as far as the ragged, rough, noisy... I find the TL's constant downshifts for torque at low speed more annoying than the torquier VQ35. And I too speak from personal experience.

I do agree that Acura has always been perceived as a luxury car maker though, and Nissan is more pedestrian. Brand perception and dealer experience will be better with my TL. But I've got 9400 miles on my TL now (after a month and a half of ownership which included a trip up to Montana, down the Mountain States, to the Grand Canyon, and finally, back to Texas). At 9400 miles, the initial visual appeal of the admittedly gorgeous interior of the TL has faded a bit, and now the substance of living with the car every day are becoming apparent. Not nitpicking, and this will probably piss off the Acura worshippers on the site, but my TL is built no better than my Altima was. Is it more comfortable? Yes. Does it get more attention from others? Yes. Is it perceived as being more luxurious? Yes. Is it a better car? It's definitely better than the Altima, but I think if you stripped away the brandname perception, and you compared the TL with a Maxima, I'd call it about even.

Xpditor

EZZ: When you say "handling", are you speaking of actual performance in turns, stopping, etc? Or, are you speaking of the driving experience - the "feel" of the cars mentioned. If you are speaking of the subjective feel and driving experience, I agree with you that the RWD cars feel more like what I grew up on and what I am used to. I am more comfortable with that type of handling. That's based on my driving experiences for many years. I have a BMW also and love the way it feels.

But, measuring objective handling performance, the G35 sedan and TL sedan are almost identical (see Road and Track's Road Test Summary charts). The G35 is .1 (one-tenth) second faster in 0-60 mph but slower than the TL in 0-100 mph and 1/4 mile. The TL has better skid pad and slalom numbers than the G35 sedan. The BMW 330i has .01 (one-one hundreth of a g better skid pad number than the TL (almost identical) and the TL is faster than the BMW through the cones in the slalom.

That's hardly the basis for saying "Absolutely no comparison". I think it is great praise for a FWD luxo-sedan competing with a German icon of handling equipped with the optionally larger 3.0 engine and a sweet RWD Japanese sedan carrying great credentials and a superb 3.5 L engine. It's flattering to have the TL even competing with these great cars, let alone out-performing them in many respects.

My point is that you said "Absolutely no comparison". You may have liked the driving experience of the BMW and G35 better (I understand), but it is the TL who gets to the finish line first- especially if you throw in a few curves.

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stocks2k

I am not sure what TL you are driving, but my steering wheel tilts and telescopes.

Xpditor, that was a very well written and informed post. It is refreshing to see people act like adults every once in a while.

No reason to bash either car, but the TL is a step up from the Maxima IMO. The interior build quality and suspension tuning alone are worth the extra money, and it isn't much difference when you really option up the Maxima.

EZZ

Actually, I have R&T, C&D, and Motortrend and have the comparos. The TL never bests the G35 sedan in the slalom on the issues I have The G35 actually got 1.5 mph better through the slalom. The A-spec TL did much better and that beat the G35 sedan by a little (<0.5 mph) in the chart. However, the coupe destroyed both cars by over 2mph and that is much more comparable with the A-spec since both come with 18 inch wheels.
Slalom is also very dependent on the tires...the more aggressive tires help slalom numbers tremendously. In a more recent comparison between the TL and G35, C&D highly praised the handling of the G35 and it exhibited the best handling at the limits over its competitors (including the TL). They also commented that the G35 sedan had the LEAST aggressive tires of the bunch.

But lets not mag race...different times, different conditions. I've driven the cars and find that the G35 is a better handler...not just the feel but I bet if both were at the track, the TL would have to work much harder to keep up let alone surpass the G35. The TL plows into the corners like all FWD cars and the G35 has mild understeer then snap oversteer. However, if you know how to control a RWD car like the G35, you can take corners faster (or at least in my case).

FWD has limitations and advantages. The limitations are exhibited in at-the-limit cornering. If you think you can drive the TL faster around a track than a G35, then I so be it but I've had the same experience as most of the editors of those magazines and know that I could get much better times at button willow in my G35 coupe.

BTW, I'm not bashing the TL. I think it has characteristics that surpass the G35 in many respects and I feel is the better car. Just not the better handler.

Xpditor

You could say the same about Nissan v. Infinit, Toyota v. Lexus, etc. Is the I35 classier than the (last gen) Maxima? I think so. Yet, it's essentially the same car with more standard equipment. Is the ES classier than a Camry?

Other things the TL has that are less obvious are sound-proofing glass in the windshield, padded rear wheel wells for quieter ride, longer warantee period- all the things that set a luxury car apart from more pedestrian models.



I don't know what kind of TL you have, but my TL has a telescoping steering wheel. I guess RDS would be nice. I don't really use the broadcast radio much. I'm usually listening either to DVD-A or XM.

Auto-dimming headlights? I've never seen them on a Maxima and never even knew they were an option. I'm not sure I would have a use for that. I usually dim manually before those things kick in.

Thanks for making those points.

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vtechbrain

Sorry for Nissan fans, but aside from the first or second generation maxima (the one with independent suspension). All followups have been mediocre cars. Trying to compare it to the TL is quite frankly insulting. :fingerfawk:

Aquineas

C'mon bro, we can have an intelligent discussion without being sarcastic. "I don't know what kind of TL you have?" I have a TL, just like you, though mine happens to be a white diamond one where the paint on the bumper doesn't match the paint on the body.

I'm not trying to slam Acura or anyone else, but I'm of the belief that too many people, on any car board, tend to:

• Ignore the negatives so that it reinforces a decision they feel they made
• Be biased and participate in useless brand worship. Never fall in love with something that doesn't love you back. Here's a clue (not necessarily directed at you). The CEO of Honda doesn't participate on a board and defend you, Joe Schmo, to his buddies, saying how you're a better accountant, engineer, or whatever. They want your money, plain and simple. They are not altruistically pursuant of automotive perfection, despite what the ads say. If they were, then Honda would have fixed this transmission problem once and for all back in 2002 and we wouldn't still be crossing our fingers over it. They choose to cut corners where they can, and for the most part, will get away with whatever the heck they can.

My mistake; I meant auto-on-off headlights. I was confusing those with the auto-dimming rear view mirror (which the TL does have).

I honestly didn't know about telescoping steering wheel. I guess I just assumed it wasn't there because it's not where I expected it to be.

In any case, I agree that the TL is further up the luxury food chain as the Maxima, but I don't concede that the margin is as high as some of you make it out to be. And the TL, for all its strengths, has weaknesses too that we, in our desire to validate our purchasing decison, conveniently ignore. The TL is a great buy for the money, otherwise I wouldn't own one. But for $8000 more than the Accord, I'd expect it to be made better too, and frankly, it's not.

Aquineas

I call you on the interior build quality argument. The materials in the TL are better, and certainly look nicer. But I call bullshit on the quality. No way you can tell me that the build quality, which I interpret to mean the quality of how the car is assembled, is better. Not with the cacaphony of pops, squeaks, and noises that my TL makes. In fact, my TL at 9400 miles sounds worse than my Altima did at 30000+ miles.

NightRider

I agree with whoever posted that, that people are too protective of their brands sometimes. This is my first Honda and I have never really been attracted to Honda's until the TL. I like the S2000. Maxima vs TL? This is a hard debate. As similarly as the TL lives in the space between (fill in the blank) ____ (3&5 series, C&E class, ES&GS), the Maxima lives in the space between near lux and Altima. The Maxima is supposedly a direct competitor to the Accord, but Maxima seems sportier and attemptedly more upscale. It has 265HP which competes with our car, not the Accord. Although many think the interior on the G35 and Max is crappy, this is subjective and more of Nissan's interior layout than anything. Honda's interiors are just presented nicer. I honestly think as a TL lover that the Max is a little better than the Accord, but not quite TL material. Simply in between. The Maxima is NISSAN's (not Infiniti's) most luxurious and performing sedan. One thing about Nissan I definitely know is better, upscale division choicing as far as same development platforms go: Accord - FWD, Maxima - FWD, TL- FWD, G35 - RWD. I must admit that I feel more sure footed in a RWD car and they are definitely funner to drive. I love my TL though!

TL_6SPD

The G35 interior is better made than the TL including the leather that is used. So get your head out of your ass and stop thinking your TL is worlds better than any car made.

Also put together much better. But that might also be because its still made in japan and the TL is made here.

zeezz

TL_6SPD, i dont understand why you continue to rant your G35 superiority here.

the interior is a matter of personal preference, it's just that most people tend to agree that the G35's interior is lacking, and that's the consensus in car magazines and with enthusiasts alike.

i don't even know how you can begin to say that the G35 interior is better. G35 handles better, yes, G35 is a tad faster, most likely, but G35 interior is better? i don't really think so.

TL_6SPD

It might be lacking in a few areas of design. But not in quality. The way its put together is much better than the TL. The G35 doesn't have quality problems like the TL does.

If you read really well on what I said. Maybe you will actually understand what I meant to say. The TL has higher quality materials, but the way its put together is worse than a kia.

I had a CL-S for a while, and loved it. It was put together better than the TL ever was.

rets

I think the later build 04TLs having much better quality is the contrast to what you've addressed above. The following TLs should overcome this issue very soon. If you could test-drive and compare the late vin 04TL with the early vin one, you may find the difference... IMO.

Monte TLS,MAX

This debate will be ongoing with TL/TLS vs the Maxima and G35 like it has for years now do asearch you will see, there are going to be those diehard to the Max and G35 and those to the TL (nothings going to change there views). Nothing never gets accomplished in these debates but bashing, I like them all and I think the 5th gen Maximas interior layout was the last good looking/quality one from Nissan (materials for 04 are a little less quality). I think Aquineas means auto on/off head lights on the Max.

Xpditor

You drive a G35 Coupe yet you presume to tell me that my TL "plows into corners like all FWD cars and the G35 Coupe has mild understeer..."

If you you have driven a TL at those kinds of speeds into corners, I can give you more credibility. If you haven't, then you're just regurgitating old conventional wisdom. My TL does NOT plow into corners. I find, as the editors of Road and Track in the April '04 issue found that "In the slalom, the TL threads through the cones with the utmost agility, giving the car a bit of on-throttle oversteer character, thanks to its rear suspension geometry. Around the skidpad, the TL exhibits more of (a moderate) understeer." They even gave better ratings for the TL's brakes than that of a BMW 530i Sport Package tested in the same issue. BTW, the TL topped the BMW in all handling tests. So, if you believe the TL plows into corners, the BMW plows more. In fact, by my experience since I have both, neither does.

This conversation is deja vu for me. It's about the 3rd time around. The response that "it's because of the tires" or "yes, but the Z4 corners better" and "yes, but the 750il has more room in the back seat and a sunshade" usually follow.

Well, tires are part of the cars total package. Some feel that the tires are the worst part of the TL and that it does much better with a change to a different brand. And, again, I am just pleased as punch that good folks like you are even comparing TLs with excellent cars like the G35 Sport Coupe with a bigger engine and rear wheel drive. I don't think we'd even be having this conversation about Lexus ES330 or a Mitsubishi Galant or a Mazda Millenia or a VW Passat, etc.

If you have an open mind, consider my experience and that of R & T's testers and balance that with your preconceived notions and generalizations.

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Xpditor

I think so, too.

But, if I leave my headlights on, they shut off automatically and then come on the next time I get in the car. But they do it whether it's light or dark out. A hair splitting difference.

There are a TON of other features to the TL. I find new ones every day. It was an education just getting underneath it for some photos the other day. THere's great attention to detail and aerodynamics on the underside.

The coefficient of drag on the TL is .29. That's exactly the same as a 2004 Corvette Coupe. :P

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EZZ

You're right, I haven't driven the TL to the utmost ability so I would be a poor judge of its at limit characteristics. Test drives don't fully bring out the characteristics of the car but what I found was that the TL did behave like a FWD car. I can feel the difference and like I said before, it is one of the best FWD handling on the road (although not as good as the RSX, integra, smaller Hondas...). Just because a FWD plows into a corner does not mean it is slow. A FWD car has different cornering characteristics and a good driver can take advantage of both types of drivetrains. Just because the 530i is slower around the slalom doesn't mean it "plows" more than a TL. Like I said, it probably has more to do with the tuning of the suspension, horsepower of the car, and the tires.

rets

I do think this reply is very appropriate... No matter how good 04TL is, this vehicle is still FWD... :sqnteek:

But, as EZZ said above, we all agree the different driving technique could make FWD corner better than the ordinary RWD...

boltjames

For the life of me I do not understand why a $35,000 luxury car aimed at a 40 year old executive with three kids and a $300,000 mortgage needs to handle like a slot car or why it is somehow expected to.

The TL, FWD and all, does more than we expect it to, doesn't it? All this banter about "my RWD car is blah blah in the twisties" and "my modded intakes add blah blah to the horsepower" is pointless. Folks, you bought a luxury car. You bought a nicely appointed Accord. You didn't buy a 911 or an NSX. You G35 folks? You bought a stretched, heavy, awkward, and bloated Nissan Z. Both are pretty. Both are in the luxury class. Both are designed to tote the family around while making BMW drivers feel oblivious and Hyundai drivers feel jealous. Lowering them an inch, putting on badass tires, blah, blah, and blah doesn't change the fact that we're not driving sports cars. Did I miss the memo that describes how fun it is to go from 0-60 in 7 seconds between stop signs that are 200 yards apart in residential neighborhoods? Is there a secret thrill in beating a minivan out of the gate at daycare pickup? Are there style points earned by not having to make the brake lights illuminate in a sharp curve in the mall parking lot?

These cars are four-door family sedans. That's all they are. They're decendants of the 1962 Buick LeSabre, not the 1956 Chevrolet Corvette. Enough already.

Let's all go buy some groceries, get the dry cleaning, and pick up the Chinese food in style and be happy with that, okay?

BJ

ndabunka

He has bigger wheels than you do. Don't you feel inferior? No? As far as comparisons...We get it ALL the time with the 3-series BMW. Doesn't make sense there either (because ALL TL owners already know thet the TL is aimed directly at the 5-series, not it's punny little brother). but what the hey... Let the guy have some fun!

Xpditor

I wasn't intending to be sarcastic. There are many members of this forum that have TL's sold in Canada. They are equipped differently. I know some of the differences, but not all of them. I thought perhaps you might have had one of those. Sorry for the confusion.

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