Check your factory installed plugs!!!!
11-09-2011, 02:36 PM
#41
11-10-2011, 07:29 AM
#42
Safety Car
Originally Posted by Anonymous
.but i torque like a gorilla so that should do it.
Spark plugs threads in aluminum cylinder heads (like the TL) will strip *very* easy when over tightened. And, I am not talking about macho-man strength either. Even girl-like strength could strip the threads.
I would not dare to attempt tightening the spark plugs without a proper (quality) torque wrench. And, I have experience turning wrenches a lot and I would not attempting it without the torque wrench. I suppose that is where my experience pays-off with knowing what *not* to do.
*Every time* that I do an oil change and/or ATF change, I use a torque wrench too. Anytime a person tightens a fastener into aluminum it is very wise to use the torque wrench. Even then, I drop the spec'ed torque value to 15% less than stated... this is how careful I am with aluminum. I know who the boss is..... and it ain't me.
Closing thought = stripped plug thread = $$$$
11-10-2011, 07:52 AM
#43
^^^very good advice.
i still remember when i did my valve cover gasket on my 97 accord...i BARELY torqued and snapped a bolt. what a mission looking for a replacement at the junkyard (before I realized that the dealership was easier for this stuff).
Anyway...i for these really small tq specs...you're better off getting an inch/pound torque wrench I would think because i used my big one and it would not "click" at 16 without making me feel like the bolt was going to snap.
the way i do it is I hand tighten...then i support the ratched and use one finger on the end and pull it until it's certain it's not going anywhere but not enough to snap anything. Not as scientific as inacurrate, but I'm sure that's no shock.
i still remember when i did my valve cover gasket on my 97 accord...i BARELY torqued and snapped a bolt. what a mission looking for a replacement at the junkyard (before I realized that the dealership was easier for this stuff).
Anyway...i for these really small tq specs...you're better off getting an inch/pound torque wrench I would think because i used my big one and it would not "click" at 16 without making me feel like the bolt was going to snap.
the way i do it is I hand tighten...then i support the ratched and use one finger on the end and pull it until it's certain it's not going anywhere but not enough to snap anything. Not as scientific as inacurrate, but I'm sure that's no shock.
11-11-2011, 01:03 AM
#44
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You can probably save it with helicoil by someone that knows what they're doing. Should run about $200 parts and labor plus new plugs and the coil pack if damaged. If they want to replace the entire head, get a second opinion. This is a somewhat common occurance in the Ford modulars.
The only weird thing now is the orange engine "light" is now on (the one to the right of the green "headlamps on" indicator). Any ideas as to why?
11-11-2011, 08:46 AM
#46
Instructor
Just so that the less experienced person is aware.....
Spark plugs threads in aluminum cylinder heads (like the TL) will strip *very* easy when over tightened. And, I am not talking about macho-man strength either. Even girl-like strength could strip the threads.
I would not dare to attempt tightening the spark plugs without a proper (quality) torque wrench. And, I have experience turning wrenches a lot and I would not attempting it without the torque wrench. I suppose that is where my experience pays-off with knowing what *not* to do.
*Every time* that I do an oil change and/or ATF change, I use a torque wrench too. Anytime a person tightens a fastener into aluminum it is very wise to use the torque wrench. Even then, I drop the spec'ed torque value to 15% less than stated... this is how careful I am with aluminum. I know who the boss is..... and it ain't me.
Closing thought = stripped plug thread = $$$$
Spark plugs threads in aluminum cylinder heads (like the TL) will strip *very* easy when over tightened. And, I am not talking about macho-man strength either. Even girl-like strength could strip the threads.
I would not dare to attempt tightening the spark plugs without a proper (quality) torque wrench. And, I have experience turning wrenches a lot and I would not attempting it without the torque wrench. I suppose that is where my experience pays-off with knowing what *not* to do.
*Every time* that I do an oil change and/or ATF change, I use a torque wrench too. Anytime a person tightens a fastener into aluminum it is very wise to use the torque wrench. Even then, I drop the spec'ed torque value to 15% less than stated... this is how careful I am with aluminum. I know who the boss is..... and it ain't me.
Closing thought = stripped plug thread = $$$$
11-11-2011, 12:38 PM
#48
I don't understand the whole helicoil process you guys are using. How can you possibly drill, tap, and install a coil without filling the cylinder and rings with abrasive metal shavings? This will destroy the cylinder walls!!!
I feel bad for anybody that buys one of these cars later on down the road.
I would think the proper way to do this repair would be to remove the cylinder head.
I feel bad for anybody that buys one of these cars later on down the road.
I would think the proper way to do this repair would be to remove the cylinder head.
11-11-2011, 01:38 PM
#49
A great many will put the piston at top dead center, load the drill/tap with heavy grease, go slowly and keep the debris from accumulating on the tool by cleaning and regreasing often. When all's done, blow out the clyinder and good to go, hopefully.
Thought I'd add, don't know why anyone would reduce the torque 15% just to be cautious. It may not be a problem when we're speaking of 16-20 ft/lbs, but when we're into the 80/90 lb range, reducing the torque 12/14 lbs is not the best idea. This is why there is a torque rating, so one can safely install the parts and not be worried about over or under tightening. Go by the book.
Thought I'd add, don't know why anyone would reduce the torque 15% just to be cautious. It may not be a problem when we're speaking of 16-20 ft/lbs, but when we're into the 80/90 lb range, reducing the torque 12/14 lbs is not the best idea. This is why there is a torque rating, so one can safely install the parts and not be worried about over or under tightening. Go by the book.
Last edited by Turbonut; 11-11-2011 at 01:46 PM.
11-11-2011, 03:55 PM
#51
Safety Car
With the spark plugs, I would not reduce the value in light of the issue of them loosening.
11-11-2011, 04:22 PM
#52
Team Owner
One thing to think about, detonation loosens spark plugs....
Many times the threads are damaged not from over torquing but from the plugs loosening and fire cutting the threads or ripping out the last few threads as the plug blows out of the head.
A little aluminum usually won't hurt in the combustion chamber. It's not something you want to do if you can avoid it but I've never seen it cause issues with cylinder wall scoring. Now the odds of blowing anything out of a cylinder with compressed air are slim. I keep a ton of lube on the drill bit and a ton of lube on the tap. You can keep all or most of the filings out of the combustion chamber if you take your time and use a thick lube or grease. I've had the heads off of an engine that had the spark plug hole helicoiled and no issues were found.
Many times the threads are damaged not from over torquing but from the plugs loosening and fire cutting the threads or ripping out the last few threads as the plug blows out of the head.
A little aluminum usually won't hurt in the combustion chamber. It's not something you want to do if you can avoid it but I've never seen it cause issues with cylinder wall scoring. Now the odds of blowing anything out of a cylinder with compressed air are slim. I keep a ton of lube on the drill bit and a ton of lube on the tap. You can keep all or most of the filings out of the combustion chamber if you take your time and use a thick lube or grease. I've had the heads off of an engine that had the spark plug hole helicoiled and no issues were found.
11-11-2011, 09:03 PM
#54
Team Owner
Cylinder walls will have a light coating of oil, you're more likely to get aluminum shavings stuck on the cylinders or down in the ring land area by blowing air in there than by doing nothing or by trying to stop the shavings from getting in there in the first place. Sure, air goes in and air goes out but it's not likely to pick up any shavings and blow them out the hole. I would take my chances firing it up and vaporizing the little shavings and/or blowing them out the exhaust.
11-12-2011, 05:26 AM
#55
Cylinder walls will have a light coating of oil, you're more likely to get aluminum shavings stuck on the cylinders or down in the ring land area by blowing air in there than by doing nothing or by trying to stop the shavings from getting in there in the first place. Sure, air goes in and air goes out but it's not likely to pick up any shavings and blow them out the hole. I would take my chances firing it up and vaporizing the little shavings and/or blowing them out the exhaust.
After access is gained by removing the ignition coils and fuel rail and sometimes the intake, use either a starter trigger or turn the crank with a ratchet until the valves are closed. Drilling is done with your air ratchet and the drilling tool included in the kit. It is recommended by Calvan to use a fiberoptic bore scope to insure metal shavings are all removed from the cylinder. The debris is removed by using a blower with a small diameter rubber hose.
I've done it for years, and with the above documentation, I would certainly assume it to be a viable option.
Last edited by Turbonut; 11-12-2011 at 05:31 AM.
11-12-2011, 02:11 PM
#56
8th Gear
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Any, all is good now. Thanks for the reply.
11-12-2011, 06:48 PM
#57
Today I bought a full set of plugs for my 07' TLS with 70,000 miles. After work I drove down to a honda shop where my friend works at as a mechanic, I let the car cool off for 90 minutes & he then pulled it into his bay. He immediately tells me (even before lifting the hood) that a spark plug is loose & thats what the ticking noise is!
So after removing the plastic stuff he starts to remove 3 plugs in the front adjacent from radiator, the one in the middle was very loose! Enough it could be turned by hand, then upon getting it out it the plug had a dark color, carbon/oil covered. The shaft leading down to the plug was oily. The remaining 5 plugs were tight & normal condition. He said that if the plug had backed all the way out I would have ruined the head! These were installed by the factory & he showed me a tech bulletin in the service area issued by honda to check plug tightness on several models at 60,000 miles. He also said the same tech letter was issued for acura vehicles. Apparantly it has something to do with the factory installation & the plugs can loosen up. He has personally seen it happen & in a few instances damaged heads/engines.
My question is this: WHY DIDN'T MY ACURA DEALER CHECK THIS?!!! I'm freakin' annoyed & going to complain. This is NOT acceptable to me. THEY are the mechanics, THEY should know this. My advice: CHECK YOUR FACTORY INSTALLED PLUGS IMMEDIATELY. AS a side note the car is running alot better now & I picked up 2 mpg city.
So after removing the plastic stuff he starts to remove 3 plugs in the front adjacent from radiator, the one in the middle was very loose! Enough it could be turned by hand, then upon getting it out it the plug had a dark color, carbon/oil covered. The shaft leading down to the plug was oily. The remaining 5 plugs were tight & normal condition. He said that if the plug had backed all the way out I would have ruined the head! These were installed by the factory & he showed me a tech bulletin in the service area issued by honda to check plug tightness on several models at 60,000 miles. He also said the same tech letter was issued for acura vehicles. Apparantly it has something to do with the factory installation & the plugs can loosen up. He has personally seen it happen & in a few instances damaged heads/engines.
My question is this: WHY DIDN'T MY ACURA DEALER CHECK THIS?!!! I'm freakin' annoyed & going to complain. This is NOT acceptable to me. THEY are the mechanics, THEY should know this. My advice: CHECK YOUR FACTORY INSTALLED PLUGS IMMEDIATELY. AS a side note the car is running alot better now & I picked up 2 mpg city.
11-13-2011, 01:54 AM
#58
Race Director
11-13-2011, 10:51 PM
#61
13203!
i had the same issue when i had a friend/honda master-tech do the t-belt, plugs, etc. on my car. same plug loose, same ticking noise. car had 101k on it when i had the belt done. all is well now, glad he caught it in time.
11-30-2011, 06:13 PM
#63
Loose plug
Today I bought a full set of plugs for my 07' TLS with 70,000 miles. After work I drove down to a honda shop where my friend works at as a mechanic, I let the car cool off for 90 minutes & he then pulled it into his bay. He immediately tells me (even before lifting the hood) that a spark plug is loose & thats what the ticking noise is!
So after removing the plastic stuff he starts to remove 3 plugs in the front adjacent from radiator, the one in the middle was very loose! Enough it could be turned by hand, then upon getting it out it the plug had a dark color, carbon/oil covered. The shaft leading down to the plug was oily. The remaining 5 plugs were tight & normal condition. He said that if the plug had backed all the way out I would have ruined the head! These were installed by the factory & he showed me a tech bulletin in the service area issued by honda to check plug tightness on several models at 60,000 miles. He also said the same tech letter was issued for acura vehicles. Apparantly it has something to do with the factory installation & the plugs can loosen up. He has personally seen it happen & in a few instances damaged heads/engines.
My question is this: WHY DIDN'T MY ACURA DEALER CHECK THIS?!!! I'm freakin' annoyed & going to complain. This is NOT acceptable to me. THEY are the mechanics, THEY should know this. My advice: CHECK YOUR FACTORY INSTALLED PLUGS IMMEDIATELY. AS a side note the car is running alot better now & I picked up 2 mpg city.
So after removing the plastic stuff he starts to remove 3 plugs in the front adjacent from radiator, the one in the middle was very loose! Enough it could be turned by hand, then upon getting it out it the plug had a dark color, carbon/oil covered. The shaft leading down to the plug was oily. The remaining 5 plugs were tight & normal condition. He said that if the plug had backed all the way out I would have ruined the head! These were installed by the factory & he showed me a tech bulletin in the service area issued by honda to check plug tightness on several models at 60,000 miles. He also said the same tech letter was issued for acura vehicles. Apparantly it has something to do with the factory installation & the plugs can loosen up. He has personally seen it happen & in a few instances damaged heads/engines.
My question is this: WHY DIDN'T MY ACURA DEALER CHECK THIS?!!! I'm freakin' annoyed & going to complain. This is NOT acceptable to me. THEY are the mechanics, THEY should know this. My advice: CHECK YOUR FACTORY INSTALLED PLUGS IMMEDIATELY. AS a side note the car is running alot better now & I picked up 2 mpg city.
Bill C.
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