PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

Yeesh, why do carmags even bother stating their opinions on anything?? they should just state the raw statistics of each car's performance and be done w/ it ... the mag would only be 12 pages, plus 13 or so for ads, and it'd be 1/4 the price, and people would stop *****in' out C&D.

Formula 350

When I test drove the 6MT, I turned of VSC to see how it would handle acceleration. I did feel torque steer, but the car was so dang fast that I had to concentrate on shifting before hitting the rev limiter. It was mild in my opinion. However, I did not try it while turning as I did not have any good twisties and there was traffic.

Maybe being used to some in other cars is the answer as pointed out by others. You stop noticing after awhile if it is not too bad.

Joe5.0

I think they really overblown the fwd/tq steer issue. It should be noted that the 6 speed TL probably tq-steers tons less than the Maxima/Altima/I35. If you guys really want to see what tq steer is like go drive a 5 speed Altima SE. That thing will pull the entire car into the next lane when you floor it if you dont know it's gonna happen.

I've yet to drive an 04 TL, so I will reserve my opinion on it till I can test drive one.

vandy786

They can continue to kiss RWD car manufacturer's a$$es. All I know is that I (as well as many others) will probably not buy a car just because it's RWD. There are other important factors involved in a car purchase. RWD proponents should be reminded that the difference between RWD and FWD is minimal compared to the difference between RWD and AWD (the ultimate setup).

Joe5.0

I am glad they kept the TL fwd. I live in Michigan, and even with the advances in traction control & stabilty control I still wouldnt want to drive a rwd sedan/coupe in the winter. I prefer the predictability of fwd in bad weather.

I have driven a couple awd cars and wasnt that mightily impressed. Sure they launched nice without any wheelspin and would do pretty well in bad weather, but they rob way too much hp for me to really want to buy one.

Donte99TL

I don’t know about you guys but when I am on the track I like front wheel drive cars. I like it how when the back end starts to get away from you all you have to do is just mash on the pedal to get the back end back on course. A lot of people rag on front wheel drive cars but for me I really enjoy it.

lakeman

Jon, I have been concerned about this also and my brief test did not show this trait. (I may have to test again myself.) The TL does put an incredible amount of power through the same wheels that you steer with. If you don't get the torque steer when you are accelerating straight and in mild corners, then it is likely you are breaking traction on the inside front tire. When this happens in a FWD car the front will slide or "jump" off line. A similar thing happens when you break traction on a RWD car, the car jumps and you have to correct. Because you are steering through the power wheels, it is more unnerving. Once you get use to this one can often power through the turn and it can be fun. My question to you is; are you just having to correct the car path or is the steering wheel actually being pulled hard in you hands when this happens? Also at what speeds did the problem show? Thanks

Peters

C/D? Torque steer? Who gives a hoot? There have been some very interesting posts on C/D’s review of the new TL, and in all seriousness, unless you’re smoking a cigarette and talking on your cell, or simply doing something irresponsible, torque steer is not going to affect you. C/D’s tests with RWD cars are on the track under good conditions - I don’t live in a bubble; I live in Toronto.

Donte’s post caught my eye and I think he’s raised an interesting perspective. Like most people in this forum, I’m an enthusiast, but certainly not a professional driver. I had the opportunity to race 5 different Porches one day at a sponsored event at a regional racetrack last year. Prior to going out on the track, the instructors put us out on skid pad, with two cars: a FWD Beetle and a RWD North American car. For those unfamiliar with the skid pad, it’s watered down, and you get out onto the oval and punch it until-the instructor pulls the hand break and puts you into a spin with the objective of learning to manage your way out of it. There were 10 of us in the class, all enthusiasts, none professional and all of us came away feeling far more confident in the Beetle than the RWD car. Even going around the oval, you have a better-connected sense to the wheels, the adhesion limits and the understeer actually becomes very manageable; I would even say desirable. Dante’s point about “mashing on the peddle” when you lose it is right on. You get so confident; you power your way through a loss of control. Most drivers could go faster in the FWD car and could correct out of a skid faster.

Sure a Porsche Boxter S is a wonderful car and driven on good track conditions, with excellent weather, an instructor by your side, and grass all around you – yep, it’s great. But who gives a hoot? Who drives on a track? Who drives in good weather all the time? When you get into skid, or have the opportunity to drag a Mercedes CLK430 Convertible in slightly wet and cold Toronto weather, like I did last night, and you smoke him because your TL is inferior because its FWD with good grip, I ask you - who gives a hoot?

JonDeutsch

It's really interesting, this car. The first time I test drove the 5AT, I felt it was too much sedan and not enough sport. Sure, it was quick, but it felt more like an ES330 than an A4. At the time, the 6MTs weren't out, and I was kinda bummed, because I really wanted this car to be sporty.

Then, a month or so later, I went back to test drive the 6MT. I was able to test drive in on backroads in a small town. I was enthralled, overall, with the performance and "connectedness" I had with the car. The steering seemed more accurate, the accelleration amazing, the shifting downright enjoyable. I did, however, come across two occurences of torque steer -- where the steering wheel jolted left and right from under my grip. I didn't feel like I was going to veer from the road, but it was unnerving. I didn't know what it was until the salesguy pointed it out to me. Hmmm, I thought. Kind of a bummer, but overall the experience was so joyful that I felt I could look past it, esp. if I believe that FWD would be safer for me in the rain, ice and snow.

With that experience, I anxiously awaited the C&D review. Really, I did. I was expecting them to ding it on the torque steer, but I also expected them to have as much fun as I did on the back roads. I was expected a qualified "oh wow" review. Of course, I don't have any experience driving RWD cars, so I don't have the same point of reference as C&D does.

Then the review came out, and I was bummed'n'stunned. They seemed to really focus on the problems that I experienced, and went beyond what I experienced with the understeer issue.

So, with that review in mind, I went to a new Acura dealer (the original one wouldn't let me test drive anymore ) to test drive both the 5AT and 6MT again.

Because it was a different dealer, I test drove the cars on different roads. These were more of the abandoned highway sort, so there were more straightaways and turn lanes than back roads.

I test drove the 6MT first, and, as usual, it just took off like a bat out of hell on the straight away. For the first time, I noticed the wheels stuttering on the pavement (similar to what C&D reported), trying to grab hold. The young salesguy asked me if that was torque steer. I said no.

So, we were off. I was at 70mph before I knew it and then slowed down. No braking issues that I can recall. I searched near and far for turns and curves to test out the "issues." I found precious few, but I did my best to accellerate into them and take them at challenging speeds.

This is where I noticed, not torque steer, but understeer. Using emphathy to get into the minds of the C&D folks, I was able to understand what understeer was all about. Understeer forces you to not turn as far as you want to turn, forcing you to slow down in order to take the turn sharper. I noticed, for the first time, much of this effect. I felt like I was fighting with the TL to turn sharp and fast. I feel that I can take better, more fun turns with my Integra. I can see how people would describe this effect as making the car feel "heavy." The steering certainly firms up and it becomes progressively harder to turn, the faster you go. In addition, there were several occurances of a 'studdering' feeling during these turns. It may have been the LSD, but I really don't know for sure. It didn't feel unsafe, but it definitely felt less than enjoyable... like something was interfering with my cornering fun.

All that said, I want to point out two caveats:

1. I was in a "C&D Frame of Mind" (credit: Billy Joel ).. and really looking for the faults. I wasn't surprised to find them, because C&D doesn't make things up.

2. I was pushing the car pretty good, I think. I didn't catch the speeds at which I was taking the turns, but if I were to guess, I would guess between 40-50mph. But sufficed to say that my Integra probably can't get as fast as the TL for which to take the turns. In other words, I wonder if my Integra was working at the same speed as the TL, would it have the same understeer? The speed differential is key here. If I was taking those turns at 50mph, that would be downright dangerous in a lesser car. Understeer should be my biggest worry! But, if it was 30mph, then the TL doesn't handle as well as it should in the curves. Unfortunately, I don't have that data to share. I hope someone who's better at testing cars can follow up to this thread with some better data.

Then I tested the 5AT, and there was less tire skipping off the line, but I couldn't tell if it was better or worse mannered on the turns because I don't feel as comfortable pushing an AT car. I don't know why. It's just how I'm wired. I did take the AT car into a parking lot to do donuts and I did notice a rather wide turning radius -- as compared to my Integra. I also noticed the understeer there as well, but it didn't seem unreasonable in this test.

So, in review:

1. In back roads, I experienced torque steer (1st car)
2. On turn lanes and open roads, I experienced tire skipping and understeer (to what degree, I don't know -- I don't have enough other car experience from which to judge) (2nd car)
3. The car is very fast... fast enough to compete with the best sport/lux sedans made. Excitingly fast. I can understand that C&D, knowing what they know about RWD handling characteristics, were lead to think of the TL as a car that is this close to being sports-sedan ecstasy on wheels.

I think #3 really brings to bare the conundrum that Acura has created: The new TL is so amazing on 8 out of the 10 pillars of sports sedan perfection, that the driving enthusiast is almost forced by passion to focus on the those missing pillars: understeer and torque steer.

On the flip-side, 8 out of 10 ain't bad. And that's just on sportiness! C&D and similar folks obviously don't care a whit about technology innovation (Bluetooth, DVD-Audio, 3D solar sensing, voice-activated control of the car, etc.) or long-term reliability (if they did, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes would never win a comparo).

So, there are a lot of "flip side" issues that escape C&D's focus. Interestingly, these creature comforts and real-world issues tend to get more play in the C&D comparos for some reason.

Further, I agree with the other poster about the TL's true competition. Is it the G35 (RWD)? Or is it the new Maxima (FWD)? Is it the 330i (smaller, but similar price) or the 525i (same size, larger price)? Is it the IS300 or the I35?

Truth is, it's probably none of these. And there inlies the Acura rub. They seem determined as a marketing organization to slot their offerings into the crevices that other manufacturers create with their line ups.

What I need to do is to go test drive a G35 and see exactly what I'm missing before I decide on buying the sendan that has performance trade-offs for realiability, snow & ice traction, luxurious creature comforts, and superior interior design.

Jon

lakeman

Thanks Jon for the excellent write-up. Based on your descriptions, I need to re-re-review the 6MT soon. (My Audi 5K turbo would cause similar responses very near the limit. I found that if I applied the power later in the turn, it was much better and more fun) I don't think it will change my mind on the car due to the other features I like so much, but I need to know. I have ordered HPT's for my car and that could make a difference, but I doubt I can find a 6MT with HPT to test.

EZZ

Great Post Jon,

Just wanted to add that you should try the new G35x (AWD) that just came out. Although there is NO 6-speed manual The RWD version is a blast to drive and I'm willing to bet that Infiniti is just as reliable as Acura. Maybe they'll improve on the interior for the 2005 model. I'm gonna wait a little to see if any weird problems pop up on the TL before making my decision. Problem is that I can get VPP pricing on the G35 which takes off $3 grand making it the better alternative in terms of price. Wish I knew an Acura employee

vitocorleone

At the Seattle auto show, the Infiniti rep said a fully loaded G35 AWD will cost around $38k. On a side note, have you looked to see how the AWD sucks down the gasoline? 17/24mpg. I'm sure the car would be fun, but, when it comes to mpg, it seems to nor really be any better than some SUVs!

partagas

OK, you guys need my 10 cents worth. My last 5 personal drivers were a '90 Taurus SHO stick FWD, an 95 Volvo T5 FWD, a '98 Lexus GS400 RWD and a '01 330i SP, stick. We also have a G35 in the family. No comparison, the 330i is the best handler. The GS400 RWD had the worst understeer; that thing handled like a plow mule. The Volvo had the worst torque steer but it was sure fun.

However, on virtually any trip, I would choose to drive the TL over any of these cars. A short run up to Yosemite with just the wife, the 330i. But the 330i is a small car with few amenities, great handling and ride but bum amenities and too small for a business car.

The G35 is out of the question. First, the cockpit is considerably smaller than the 330i; the door presses my leg as the cowl hits the other. The door presses my arm. The engine roars; after much driving, it is downright annoying. But, the killer is the unpredictable oversteer. It you try to slide a turn like you can in the 330i, snap, you're into the vsa or going backwards faster than you can react. There is no friendly drifting like the 330i or plowing like the TL or SHO or old T5.

The Lexus plows, guzzles gas and tire drums.

As far as a 200 mile plus jaunt goes, again, there is no comparison. The TL is run away better than the others. It's quieter than the others. It's more roomy, better stereo, better nav (very important to me) and the mpg is second only to the 330i.

I will learn to use the torque steer, but you can bet I'll be putting better sway bars on the thing as they become available. They are cheap and made an absolute rail car out of my 330i.

So, I agree with those of you who have trouble finding a comparison for the TL. I find the only comparables to be the 530 and the G35. The 540 and GS430 are so much more expensive but perform no better.

The 330i is in this little class by itself. It's the best dirver out there but too small and short on other goodies

Finally, that was Ron Kiino's review. C&D's early reviews of the CL-S panned it too but when they did a head to head between it and a 330 in the July 2002 issue, there was only a one point spread. Also, if you read the Edmunds 2002 Sport sedan comparo, the TL won. The 330i was second and the G35 was 4th or 5th.

So, yep, you're gonna get torque steer and understeer but it will still handle better than anything but a 330i and for a $300 set of sways, you can fix a bunch of it.

danno

Nicely Done!!!

lakeman

partagas, nice write-up. In addition to sway bars do you think better summer rubber would help? I can deal with some torque steer (I, too, have had several FWD cars) and predictable understeer (lots better than the G35 oversteer you noted) if it otherwise handles flat and composed at 7 to 8/10ths.

RJC RSX

My auto rsx (140lbs torque) will do that on a sharp turn (from a stop) if i'm not careful! It's kind of funny seeing how little torque is has

Habiib_Dahli

The TL never won 1st when the 3 series and the G35 where in the same comparo.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...9/page009.html


The TL-S won the 2001 Entry level luxury sedan comparo.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...8/page017.html

I'm going to predict though that the new TL will win at least 2 comparison test out of all the major publications.

partagas

I have ordered mine with the summer tires. I live in socal so traction is not an issue and I have ski vehicles. I will replace the stockers as soon as reasonalble with Michelin Pilot Sports unless I have a new favorite by then. The tires will help the handling by raising the limits, but not the balance or the torquesteer. They may push the understeer beyond your driving comfort zone but you'll still find it higher up. You can push it even higher with the sways.

Now, do I wish that I could get a 530i with 45 more hp, a 330i level sport package, without the screwed up robotic steering and a good nav and stereo for $35K, you betcha.

Peters

Paragas, I had the same perspecitve on the G35, particularly the cockpit. And the coupe is worse, I just couldn't get comfortable in the thing. Your right about the trip - it only takes one long one and you really appreciate the virtues of the TL.

partagas

I'm 6ft 190, not an unusual size. I'm really surprised that more writers don't note this driver's seat problem.

I suppose that I am unusual in my enthusiasm for corners. I really like the abilty to drift my 330i. The G35 is just plain scary. The TL won't drift unless you lift throttle, a little too unpredictable for me. So I will just raise the limits with the sway bars to a level where theywork as fast as I want to go and enyoy the room, power, comfort and goodies.

SilverCL225hp

I totally understand why you guys are angry about that review, I got the same feeling when I read about the comparison test that G35 fell behind 330i and 03 TL-S. But think about it deeply it is no big deal. Frankly, it is really different people's taste, somebody care more about handling, some care more about horsepower and torque, some concentrate on interior and quality. May be TL is a bit behind in the handling department, but 330i and G35 don't have TL's excellent interior also. TL provides more space than that little 3-series sedan. TL is not perfect, it can not beat other cars in EVERY category, no way.

TL-Rocket

Hey everyone,

When I test drove an '04 TL 6MT the whole experience was simply delicious for lack of a better term. Sure there was a little bit of torque steer, but I always felt in control...

Now Honda/Acura does a better job of controlling torque steer than most - besides what do you expect when coralling 270 horses out of a turn - there's going to be a little kick.

Any one have any stories of the first time they pushed a Porsche 911 hard out of a turn - how the back end came around to greet them. These are not set it and forget cars - some driver attention is required.

To hell with what ever C&D says, this is obviously a package they're not prepared to handle, nor a package they've ever seen before.... a faaaast powerful FWD with good handling manners, excellent 6 speed, good fuel economy, excellent interior and creature comforts at a good price. It only took me 10 minutes to catch on. It's gonna take them a couple of years... oh well.

JonDeutsch

I think we really need to start logging speeds at which we are happy or unhappy with the performance.

I may have been pushing the car too hard, and run up against the performance barrier. Too bad I didn't log my own MPH on the curves to report back the "edge" of performance for the TL.

Jon

gvahe

While waiting for my 04 TL/6 Speed/Nav (just got it 4 days ago ), I test drove the G35 Coupe and Sedan.

Although Im sure enthusiasts would disagree, I dont even think the G35 is in the same leauge as the TL.

Its loud inside, the clutch is PAINFUL to push down, and even the testers I drove were already rattling inside!

The TL is SOOOOOO MUCH more refined. The drive train on the TL is music to my ears. When you are cruising, its quiet. However, when prompted, you hear a nice sweet "Growl" from the engine.

Im VERY happy with my decision.

Rajman

Hey all,

I just wanted to point out that the car that was tested by C&D was not the best that the TL has to offer (At least I don't think).
The A-Spec package lowers the body of the car (and better sway bars??). Is it possible that maybe C&D might not have been as harsh if they had tested the A-Spec (probably still not as good as BMW)

However, this would reduce the "bang-for-your-buck" that the TL has famed itself on. Although if you think about it, it would still put in a similar price range as the BMW, but Acura would have all the new techie toys. So basically, as a consumer, it comes down to whether you want the extra-superb handling or the techie toys. Assuming the handling is decent, I'll take the toys!! (I have yet to test drive one!)

Anyway, just wanted to mention this random thought I had.

Enjoy

RajMan

Davediego

id just like to point you all to this C&D article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

here they love the CL-S 6 speed, and the 6 speed TL can only be an IMPROVEMENT upon it. pretty ****ing hipocritical if you ask me

ColdFusionTL

I was choosing between the 04TL and the G35 Coupe but decided to get the Coupe. Your comparing two very different cars. Of course its a little louder in the G. Its a sports car...the TL isn't. I know i'm very happy with my decision

samkws

basically the reviews are Bull****!!! lots of bias and yes...they tend to be loyal to a particular brand...BMX?? haha

i don't know y, but they always praise the Euros rather than the japs and domestics

go drive one on ur own and judge urself!!! u don't buy a car by just reading the review and not test driving one right?

vandy786

I wouldn't mind a G35 coupe if it had the interior of a TL, or at the very least the Honda Accord.

lakeman

TL-Rocket, you are spot on. I had a 1988 911 in the mid- 90's and that car got away from me 2 or 3 times just pulling out onto the road. One time it went completely sideways into the other lane and if someone had been there, you would not be reading anything from me now. I have, in earlier posts, compared the TL 6MT to my 911, and the reason why is that the TL has a very comparable power "feel" to the late 80's 911. The first thing I noticed about the TL 6MT was the rapid development of substantial power, very much like my 911. I soon learned to moderate my power in the 911, where and when I could apply it, and what speeds were right for what corners. By driving about 8/10ths (still faster than most cars) the car was a blast to drive and luckily I had no "end-swapping" during the last 4 years of my 5 years of ownership. I think the TL needs to be driven this way. Drive hard when you can use the power and then learn when and how much is appropriate in turns etc. I believe much of the fun of this new TL will be this learning process - how and when to use the power. Meanwhile, (and unlike the 911) I will really enjoy the "duality" of the car; the comfort, features, good ride etc.

chadr

First thing I would say to people not happy with stock performance is to get new tires. The stock tires are crap and seriously reduce performance of the car. I swapped to Pirelli PZero Nero M+S on mine and the car is MUCH more fun to drive. As a comparison I would say it increased the handling edge of the car by a good 20% or so over the stock tires. I am still in break in of the car but I have yet to see it behave even slightly badly.

I have noted some torque steer at times but honestly it seems to be less then with the stock tires. Perhaps this is because the adhesion limits of the new tires are much higher so the LSD isn't kicking in all the time in turns and such.

If you really want to know what this car can do you owe it to yourself to drive one that does not have the stock tires on it.

1SICKLEX

Which Wheel Drive is Best for You?

Car buying discussions many times leave buyers asking a multiple-choice question: Which is best … front-wheel drive; rear-wheel drive; four-wheel drive; or all-wheel drive?

In the simplest of terms, the difference between the various "drives" is characterized by which set of wheels — or which tires — receive power directly from the engine ... the front wheels or the rear wheels? But what about four-wheel and all wheel drive - how are they different?

To truly appreciate this engineering marvel, we must first better understand the mechanism that transfers the power from the engine to the wheels — it's called a differential. This is key in any discussion of the drivetrain because it is the differential that allows the wheels to rotate at different rates while turning. You may not realize it, but when you're making a turn, the wheels on the outside of the turn are moving faster than the inside wheels — they have farther to go! So, ultimately, the differential is allowing them to move at a "different" rate of speed. Any "slippage" or "drag" of the tires is automatically eliminated by the differential.

So, what benefits does one drive system have over another? In a very brief and highly simplified summary, we've outlined some key points with regard to this potentially confusing topic.

Rear-wheel drive
Rear-wheel drive engineering sends the power from the engine via the differential to the rear wheels. Years back, both cars and trucks were primarily built with rear-wheel drive. There was an engine up front, a transmission came down the middle and the differential/rear axle assembly was in the back. This usually limited the trunk or passenger floor space. Rear-wheel drive allows the rear tires and suspension to work more efficiently by dividing the workload between the driving wheels in the back and the steering wheels in the front. This creates better cornering and stopping power and a makes for a smoother ride. For these reasons, many of today's performance brands still use this technology.

Bottom line: Rear-wheel drive provides more "performance" driving attributes by "pushing" the vehicle into motion from the rear wheels.

Popular new rear-wheel drive vehicles
Mazda Miata MX-5 Ford Mustang
Inifiniti G35 BMW 3 Series
Lexus LS430 Jaguar XJ

Front-wheel drive
Front-wheel drive engineering sends the power from the engine via the differential to the front wheels. With the national emphasis on fuel economy and the auto industry's need to keep production costs low, most cars (especially models under $35,000) are now being built with front-wheel drive. Because the weight of the engine and differential are placed in the front of the vehicle, the front wheels gain better traction. While rear-wheel drive may cause some "spinning out" in bad weather situation, the benefits of front wheel drive are increased traction and safety for the average driver because the car is being "pulled" through the turn. There's also more interior room available since all the engine and drivetrain equipment is up front.

Bottom line: Front-wheel drive provides better gas mileage and traction by "pulling" the vehicle. It also provides more control for lighter vehicles in bad weather driving situations.

Popular new front-wheel drive vehicles
Honda Accord Toyota Camry
Volkswagen New Beetle Chevrolet Impala
Nissan Altima Honda Odyssey

1SICKLEX

http://www.corollaperformance.com/TechInfo/RWD.html

Really cool explanations with pics and graphics.

jmichaelp

Here's an Oct/2003 review:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

"So here's the all-new TL, and the formula changes slightly. Standard features are still a key element—there's more baked-in hedonism here than just about anywhere else in this class—but it's the visceral octane that gets our attention. More muscle, more hustle, and—oh, boy—a six-speed stick to stir it all up."

"You'd expect all of this to equate with across-the-board improvement in all performance categories, and based on a day of driving on Washington state byways, including a session at Bremerton Raceway, that expectation seems well-founded. With the manual gearbox—a gratifyingly precise device that encourages rowing—the TL seems fully capable of the 6.0-second 0-to-60 sprints Acura forecasts..."

"...there's no denying that the new TL interior, set off by tasteful splashes of aluminum trim, is handsome, indeed."

"...the TL's taut new skin is distinctly more aggressive: Its wider stance, bigger footprints, and more pronounced fender flares lend a sense of hunkered-down action readiness that goes with the upgraded performance capabilities."

"The downside? There's plenty to like here, but in the end, the front-drive TL is still competing with rear- and all-wheel-drive sports sedans such as the BMW 3-series and Infiniti G35. Although eager and athletic, the six-speed TL is still limited by its propulsion system."

"...there's the issue of price... the new car will start a little higher—about $33,500—than the Type-S. Considering the standard features, that's still an attractive deal. But the previous base was south of $30,000, which may make the new TL harder to perceive as a bargain, at least for some."

partagas

After the coupe post above, I must clarify that my gripe is with the G35 sedan. It purports to be what the TL is and does a poor job. But, the coupe is a different animal. It purports to be a sports car with a back seat and it does that quite well. The magazines say that the end swap is not an issue and you expect a tight cockpit and noise with a sports car. Now, how long will it take a few of the aftermarket guys to come out with some sways for the new TL? I don't want to be the guinea pig for the first ones out.

vtechbrain

l had my 6 speed for almost 3K now. Being a die hard lead foot I have driven it at 12/10ths. Yes, at the limit the car understeers (turanzas) but how many people are doing 90 degree turns at 65MPH? And although everybody touts cars that oversteer (RWD) I would rather have tire scrub rather than spin outs. BMW is the only company I've seen to have a car spin out and then flip over in a commercial (a 3 series station wagon)!!! They should have used it for a safety commercial since the driver was unharmed. One point glossed over in the article is that the LSD gives the car the ability to pull out of corners at breakneck speeds. It will cause some torque steer at the limit, but again, how many people are pulling out of that 90 degree corner in second while reving the engine at 5000 rpms???? Noooo its true!!!!! THE TL IS NOT AN NSX!!! NO **** SHERLOCK!!! A 530 is not an M5 either that's why the M costs 30K more!! The Tl is a luxurious, comfortable, 4 door sedan with serious power, good build quality, dashing good looks inside and out, exceptional value and very good (although not race car) handling. I dont think you can say all those things together in the same sentence about any car anywhere near its price range! And lest I forget (another bull in the article) There is no bimmer in the world that lists for 5000 dollars more with the same equipment level, try 10. If it's a 5 series try 15. Nuff said!!!!

partagas

Well, vtech is kind of a hard_ass, but what he says is true. At the limit, my 330i is going sideways, a little scary and the pull out of the corner is even more scary as it may wrap you around. Nothing compared to a G35 but still, it has its limits too. Not to mention its interior and price compromises.

vtechbrain

Little slip I just went to BMWUSA. com and configured a 330 to the same specs as my TL. It was only 8000 dollars more, obviously some of the goodies

bollywood21

I read the article last night and I was p*ssed off. One item I do agree upon:

FWD vs. AWD or RWD. I agree there is a definate advantage, when pushing the limits of the car and better feel of the car. Why do they have to repeat this theme throughout the entire article!!!
The editors from C&D doomed the TL before even seeing the car.
Propulsion FWD = Bad review.

Now for the C&D bashing:
What about the interior of the car? They only talk about this for two lines. The interior is fantastic, the only car in the same league is an E-class MB.
What about value? I can see the comparison of G35, but not a 330i. A better comparison is 530i. Just because the car costs $20k, its not worthy of a comparison????

The folks at C&D need to stop having the same goons with the same viewpoints conducting car reviews. How about, if they did a review in a major city, or out on the highway. Perhaps they can give some results of how fast the TL can get to 80mph, after going through EZ Pass toll booth!!!

I think they are taking a poor pespective on reviewing common cars on the road. If you are going to review the Ferrari's etc. do a comprehensive review on the track, otherwise just give us test results 0-60, 1/4 mile, slalom, 70-0 braking and spend more time on how the car feels, and appeals to the normal car enthusiast that is driving their automobile for work, transporting family around, and weekend trips for example.

It feels good to vent, but even better to see other folks feel the C&D article sucked.

1SICKLEX

Your forgetting other things. BMW includes 3/36 year service. BMW 3 series has aftermarket support the TL can only dream about (if your into modding your car). Prestige. Some people are willing to pay more money to own a BMW over an Acura. Clearly you have people buying 323s and 325s over TLs.

It's like people pay 25k for a TSX when the Accord is an even or better deal for 25k. But it's missing the badge.Tell Acura that. Look at the commercials and read the ads. They are selling the TL as a sports sedan. Just like the silly Altima commercials.