Can we get to the bottom of this???
09-23-2010, 02:03 PM
#41
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5RyXqlojiE
09-24-2010, 01:52 PM
#48
I would add the difference between a TL 6MT and TLS 6MT from anywhere around 0-100 mph is marginal, that gap closes even more when the non S has any kind of mod. Not the case with the AT's or related to this thread specifically.
Now from higher speed scenarios or from a roll it's different but the 3.2L was geared a little bit more agressively down low as it could better handle the power through the drivetrain and the 3.5L had to tone that down because of the extra torque and I'm sure fuel economy had something to do with it.
As far as the topic of the thread, what seems to be the case (as far as I have observed and been a part of) with any really comparable or similarly rated VQ and J series is that the Nissan/Infiniti is usually better in AT and the Honda/Acura better in 6MT. Then again I am talking street and not necessarily track.
Now from higher speed scenarios or from a roll it's different but the 3.2L was geared a little bit more agressively down low as it could better handle the power through the drivetrain and the 3.5L had to tone that down because of the extra torque and I'm sure fuel economy had something to do with it.
As far as the topic of the thread, what seems to be the case (as far as I have observed and been a part of) with any really comparable or similarly rated VQ and J series is that the Nissan/Infiniti is usually better in AT and the Honda/Acura better in 6MT. Then again I am talking street and not necessarily track.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 09-24-2010 at 01:54 PM.
09-24-2010, 06:02 PM
#50
As far as the topic of the thread, what seems to be the case (as far as I have observed and been a part of) with any really comparable or similarly rated VQ and J series is that the Nissan/Infiniti is usually better in AT and the Honda/Acura better in 6MT.
09-24-2010, 06:37 PM
#51
04Tl
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Wow i felt the total opposite when i drove a 03 3.5l 6MT maxima it had way better low end and top end on my tl felt a little better but overall i believe the VQ engine has more potential.
09-26-2010, 06:53 AM
#52
Senior Moderator
i have a 06 tl wit aem intake i guess im pushing 285-290 HP and ive raced an altima se-r....smoked him from stop sign to stop sign and on the high way kept having to slow down....no body believes tl's are fast compared to se-r's...which is faster and whats better VQ's or VTECH???
09-26-2010, 09:35 PM
#53
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okay.. there's a lot of confusion on this thread it seems. First of all, an intake doesn't give anywhere even CLOSE to 10whp let alone 13-20..You will get about 10-12 CRANK Horsepower with a CAI and Spacer combined, maybe. Base 3G is 258Hp stock, minus drivetrain loss + possible gains from intake, you're looking at about 220-225WHP (Depending on your transmission) Now as far as 1/4 times: I have TL-S, with grippy summer tires, CAI and Spacer, in a 6-speed manual gearbox, and I have only ONCE broke the 14 second mark, coming in at 13.998, and I did that with a roll out and lightning quick reaction time.. Basically it was luck. Keep in mind that, that was with approx 250WHP. The base 3G, with a 6-speed puts out about 220WHP, with Auto I think its like 212WHP, not 100% sure though...Nonetheless even if the base TL was manual, there's no way he would break the 14 second mark with no mods. And regarding the SE-R, don't bother racing one stock on stock, even in a TL-S if you have auto, you will lose. A TL-S in a 6-speed will be right there with the SE-R, but never auto, and definitely not a base 3G. Automatic transmission kill's honda's performance by a lot more than people think (myself included until recently) whereas Nissan is less affected by it. I've seen plenty of SE-R go against TL-S. * SE-R Auto vs TL-S Auto, SE-R wins hands down. *SE-R Auto vs TS-S 6-speed, TL-S takes it. *SE-R 6 Speed vs TL-S 6 speed, are neck and neck. Again, that would depend on the drivers as well, but that was what I've personally seen happen. I personally raced a SE-R in a 6 speed and had my ass handed to me cause the prick said he was stock and later I found out he's got a sh** load of mods. He ran around 13.5.
Sidenote: I owned a 07 Maxima SE before my TL, and the VQ engine is a lot more torquier then our J-Series, especially on the low end. My 07 Maxima with CVT used to take base 3G TLs with no problem, if I could actually keep the wheel straight and fight all the torque steer with both hands LOL
Sidenote: I owned a 07 Maxima SE before my TL, and the VQ engine is a lot more torquier then our J-Series, especially on the low end. My 07 Maxima with CVT used to take base 3G TLs with no problem, if I could actually keep the wheel straight and fight all the torque steer with both hands LOL
09-27-2010, 12:25 AM
#54
Turd Polisher
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^ Transmissions make all the difference .. auto is horribly geared.
09-27-2010, 07:41 AM
#56
Suzuka Master
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okay.. there's a lot of confusion on this thread it seems. First of all, an intake doesn't give anywhere even CLOSE to 10whp let alone 13-20..You will get about 10-12 CRANK Horsepower with a CAI and Spacer combined, maybe. Base 3G is 258Hp stock, minus drivetrain loss + possible gains from intake, you're looking at about 220-225WHP (Depending on your transmission) Now as far as 1/4 times: I have TL-S, with grippy summer tires, CAI and Spacer, in a 6-speed manual gearbox, and I have only ONCE broke the 14 second mark, coming in at 13.998, and I did that with a roll out and lightning quick reaction time.. Basically it was luck. Keep in mind that, that was with approx 250WHP. The base 3G, with a 6-speed puts out about 220WHP, with Auto I think its like 212WHP, not 100% sure though...Nonetheless even if the base TL was manual, there's no way he would break the 14 second mark with no mods. And regarding the SE-R, don't bother racing one stock on stock, even in a TL-S if you have auto, you will lose. A TL-S in a 6-speed will be right there with the SE-R, but never auto, and definitely not a base 3G. Automatic transmission kill's honda's performance by a lot more than people think (myself included until recently) whereas Nissan is less affected by it. I've seen plenty of SE-R go against TL-S. * SE-R Auto vs TL-S Auto, SE-R wins hands down. *SE-R Auto vs TS-S 6-speed, TL-S takes it. *SE-R 6 Speed vs TL-S 6 speed, are neck and neck. Again, that would depend on the drivers as well, but that was what I've personally seen happen. I personally raced a SE-R in a 6 speed and had my ass handed to me cause the prick said he was stock and later I found out he's got a sh** load of mods. He ran around 13.5.
Sidenote: I owned a 07 Maxima SE before my TL, and the VQ engine is a lot more torquier then our J-Series, especially on the low end. My 07 Maxima with CVT used to take base 3G TLs with no problem, if I could actually keep the wheel straight and fight all the torque steer with both hands LOL
Sidenote: I owned a 07 Maxima SE before my TL, and the VQ engine is a lot more torquier then our J-Series, especially on the low end. My 07 Maxima with CVT used to take base 3G TLs with no problem, if I could actually keep the wheel straight and fight all the torque steer with both hands LOL
And your quick reaction time had nothing to do with your sub 14 run.
09-27-2010, 08:14 AM
#57
.... .... .... ... ....
okay.. there's a lot of confusion on this thread it seems. First of all, an intake doesn't give anywhere even CLOSE to 10whp let alone 13-20..You will get about 10-12 CRANK Horsepower with a CAI and Spacer combined, maybe. Base 3G is 258Hp stock, minus drivetrain loss + possible gains from intake, you're looking at about 220-225WHP (Depending on your transmission) Now as far as 1/4 times: I have TL-S, with grippy summer tires, CAI and Spacer, in a 6-speed manual gearbox, and I have only ONCE broke the 14 second mark, coming in at 13.998, and I did that with a roll out and lightning quick reaction time.. Basically it was luck. Keep in mind that, that was with approx 250WHP. The base 3G, with a 6-speed puts out about 220WHP, with Auto I think its like 212WHP, not 100% sure though...Nonetheless even if the base TL was manual, there's no way he would break the 14 second mark with no mods. And regarding the SE-R, don't bother racing one stock on stock, even in a TL-S if you have auto, you will lose. A TL-S in a 6-speed will be right there with the SE-R, but never auto, and definitely not a base 3G. Automatic transmission kill's honda's performance by a lot more than people think (myself included until recently) whereas Nissan is less affected by it. I've seen plenty of SE-R go against TL-S. * SE-R Auto vs TL-S Auto, SE-R wins hands down. *SE-R Auto vs TS-S 6-speed, TL-S takes it. *SE-R 6 Speed vs TL-S 6 speed, are neck and neck. Again, that would depend on the drivers as well, but that was what I've personally seen happen. I personally raced a SE-R in a 6 speed and had my ass handed to me cause the prick said he was stock and later I found out he's got a sh** load of mods. He ran around 13.5.
Sidenote: I owned a 07 Maxima SE before my TL, and the VQ engine is a lot more torquier then our J-Series, especially on the low end. My 07 Maxima with CVT used to take base 3G TLs with no problem, if I could actually keep the wheel straight and fight all the torque steer with both hands LOL
Sidenote: I owned a 07 Maxima SE before my TL, and the VQ engine is a lot more torquier then our J-Series, especially on the low end. My 07 Maxima with CVT used to take base 3G TLs with no problem, if I could actually keep the wheel straight and fight all the torque steer with both hands LOL
09-27-2010, 09:03 AM
#58
All motor
What about the Accord with CAI/Jpipe running a 14.04 with a blah 2.24 60'? Check the sig 
As for the Altima...both the SE-R and regular 3.5 Altima are veryyyy close in straightline speed. The advantage goes to the SE-R if it's stick because of the 6 speed. But both with the 5 speed auto are about the same. The 4spd in the Altimas though are terribly geared. 2nd gear goes to like 80 ahh!
As for the Altima...both the SE-R and regular 3.5 Altima are veryyyy close in straightline speed. The advantage goes to the SE-R if it's stick because of the 6 speed. But both with the 5 speed auto are about the same. The 4spd in the Altimas though are terribly geared. 2nd gear goes to like 80 ahh!
Last edited by Sonnick; 09-27-2010 at 09:12 AM.
09-27-2010, 04:02 PM
#59
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What about the Accord with CAI/Jpipe running a 14.04 with a blah 2.24 60'? Check the sig
As for the Altima...both the SE-R and regular 3.5 Altima are veryyyy close in straightline speed. The advantage goes to the SE-R if it's stick because of the 6 speed. But both with the 5 speed auto are about the same. The 4spd in the Altimas though are terribly geared. 2nd gear goes to like 80 ahh!
As for the Altima...both the SE-R and regular 3.5 Altima are veryyyy close in straightline speed. The advantage goes to the SE-R if it's stick because of the 6 speed. But both with the 5 speed auto are about the same. The 4spd in the Altimas though are terribly geared. 2nd gear goes to like 80 ahh!
09-27-2010, 06:03 PM
#61
Then you have the 6MT SE-R's that at times have not run any better than mid to high 14's and 95 mph so I don't think there is anything conclusive enough to say. They are pretty much in line as far as daily driving and even more so I think that's as to the bottom as it's gonna get.
09-28-2010, 08:39 AM
#62
All motor
That 4spd auto in that Alti is better than you think and many have put down times stock just as fast as the 5spd auto including me and a few of my buds (all of that torque low/mid helps it out alot). Where did you get 80mph from thats not true.......I have that same unit in my Max and its not 80..
I didn't know they ran similar times as the 5spd auto, that seems strange.
I do know the 5MT Altima's are really quick. F23a4 can attest to that
09-28-2010, 10:16 AM
#63
Burning Brakes
I can't speak for the Honda's, but the 4AT VQ35 Altima/Maximas are about .3 to .4 seconds and 3mph slower than their 5MT/6MT counterparts. With that said, there are lots of 4AT VQ Altima/Maximas deep into the low 14s and even 13s with just headers, reworked OEM airbox, catback (usually), reworked intake manifold (sometimes) and ECU flash. The biggest advantage of these cars is their weight. Headers make a lot of power too (~20whp) They're 250-300lbs lighter than the TL. The 4ATs are long-legged no doubt.
09-28-2010, 10:33 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
True
Story
Honda is focused on MPG whereas Nissan has always been focused on performance. From what I've read, the 5AT in the TL is long-legged, has ill-spaced gears, and a tight torque converter. The RWD/FWD 5ATs in the G/Z/Maxima/Altima are mostly geared for acceleration. The FWD 5ATs have a bit less gearing to reduce torque steer, but it's pretty aggressive. The Nissan 5ATs also come with fairly loose, small and efficent torque converters which help the car launch harder and feel more responsive. The downside is we typically see 10% to 15% lower mpgs compared to 5AT TLs.
In the 70% highway/30% driving in warm weather, with wider 18" rubber, and fairly sedate driving except for entrance ramps, I typically see 18=19mpg overall. In 100% highway, I'll see 26-29mpg. With the narrow OEM 17s, I typically pick up another 1 to 2 mpgs.
Story
Honda is focused on MPG whereas Nissan has always been focused on performance. From what I've read, the 5AT in the TL is long-legged, has ill-spaced gears, and a tight torque converter. The RWD/FWD 5ATs in the G/Z/Maxima/Altima are mostly geared for acceleration. The FWD 5ATs have a bit less gearing to reduce torque steer, but it's pretty aggressive. The Nissan 5ATs also come with fairly loose, small and efficent torque converters which help the car launch harder and feel more responsive. The downside is we typically see 10% to 15% lower mpgs compared to 5AT TLs.
In the 70% highway/30% driving in warm weather, with wider 18" rubber, and fairly sedate driving except for entrance ramps, I typically see 18=19mpg overall. In 100% highway, I'll see 26-29mpg. With the narrow OEM 17s, I typically pick up another 1 to 2 mpgs.
09-28-2010, 12:51 PM
#65
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Maybe it's 75? My cousin has the Altima with the 4spd and 2nd gear is REALLY long. In 1st gear it's not bad but once it hits 2nd it 'falls on its face' so to speak.
I didn't know they ran similar times as the 5spd auto, that seems strange.
I do know the 5MT Altima's are really quick. F23a4 can attest to that
I didn't know they ran similar times as the 5spd auto, that seems strange.
I do know the 5MT Altima's are really quick. F23a4 can attest to that
09-28-2010, 01:59 PM
#66
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That's not possible, he has other mods that he didn't disclose.. maybe to make it look like stock TL's are fast. I'm thinking at least intake, spacer, j-pipe, exhaust, possibly a stage II clutch which should put it in par with a TL-S. I ran against a 3G TL 6MT with those mods from a dig, I jumped ahead off the line (probably thanks to the LSD) he had some traction issues but other than that the run was neck and neck.
09-28-2010, 03:18 PM
#67
Again, the TLS is not all that faster than a TL 6MT under the whole traditional concept of 0-1320 ft or any other scenario from a dig but with a set distance. The base 6MT also has an LSD plus it's geared a little more agressively especially 1st-3rd which almost washes out the power advantage of the TLS under those scenarios.
The TLS 6MT's only consitent advantage is about .1 or .2 in ET and 1 or 2 mph in trap. It's just a limitation of FWD combined with law of deminishing returns when it comes to high powered FWD's. So under so many variable conditions and factors it's very possible for a base 6MT to run better than a TLS 6MT especially when not done by equal drivers and side by side. Honestly a base 6MT with summer tires vs a TLS 6MT with stocks is probably an equal race, to a point.
For daily driving, top end acceleration, general passing and pulling and even handling and braking, that's where the TLS displays much more distinction.
The TLS 6MT's only consitent advantage is about .1 or .2 in ET and 1 or 2 mph in trap. It's just a limitation of FWD combined with law of deminishing returns when it comes to high powered FWD's. So under so many variable conditions and factors it's very possible for a base 6MT to run better than a TLS 6MT especially when not done by equal drivers and side by side. Honestly a base 6MT with summer tires vs a TLS 6MT with stocks is probably an equal race, to a point.
For daily driving, top end acceleration, general passing and pulling and even handling and braking, that's where the TLS displays much more distinction.
09-28-2010, 03:25 PM
#68
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Again, the TLS is not all that faster than a TL 6MT under the whole traditional concept of 0-1320 ft or any other scenario from a dig but with a set distance. The base 6MT also has an LSD plus it's geared a little more agressively especially 1st-3rd which almost washes out the power advantage of the TLS under those scenarios.
The TLS 6MT's only consitent advantage is about .1 or .2 in ET and 1 or 2 mph in trap. It's just a limitation of FWD combined with law of deminishing returns when it comes to high powered FWD's. So under so many variable conditions and factors it's very possible for a base 6MT to run better than a TLS 6MT especially when not done by equal drivers and side by side. Honestly a base 6MT with summer tires vs a TLS 6MT with stocks is probably an equal race, to a point.
For daily driving, top end acceleration, general passing and pulling and even handling and braking, that's where the TLS displays much more distinction.
The TLS 6MT's only consitent advantage is about .1 or .2 in ET and 1 or 2 mph in trap. It's just a limitation of FWD combined with law of deminishing returns when it comes to high powered FWD's. So under so many variable conditions and factors it's very possible for a base 6MT to run better than a TLS 6MT especially when not done by equal drivers and side by side. Honestly a base 6MT with summer tires vs a TLS 6MT with stocks is probably an equal race, to a point.
For daily driving, top end acceleration, general passing and pulling and even handling and braking, that's where the TLS displays much more distinction.
09-28-2010, 04:18 PM
#70
That 4spd auto in that Alti is better than you think and many have put down times stock just as fast as the 5spd auto including me and a few of my buds (all of that torque low/mid helps it out alot). Where did you get 80mph from thats not true.......I have that same unit in my Max and its not 80..
. I still see average 1/4 mile times in favor of the 5spd auto.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duf1aUM6iRs
LMFAO 
09-29-2010, 11:01 AM
#73
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2nd gear in the Altima ends around 80MPH. In fact it was the same way in the 2002 Maxima SE i rented back in the day. You know I still disagree with you on the 4spd auto alti being as fast as the 5spd auto. I still see average 1/4 mile times in favor of the 5spd auto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duf1aUM6iRs
. I still see average 1/4 mile times in favor of the 5spd auto.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duf1aUM6iRs
09-29-2010, 12:07 PM
#74
All motor
That's not possible, he has other mods that he didn't disclose.. maybe to make it look like stock TL's are fast. I'm thinking at least intake, spacer, j-pipe, exhaust, possibly a stage II clutch which should put it in par with a TL-S. I ran against a 3G TL 6MT with those mods from a dig, I jumped ahead off the line (probably thanks to the LSD) he had some traction issues but other than that the run was neck and neck.
Hell I ran 14.0 with I/Jpipe in my Accord 6 speed with a hardly decent 2.24x 60'. I see no reason why a TL with CAI/UR Pulley (from what I've seen these were his mods at the time) to run a 13.9 @99.9. I trapped 100.82 on a 14.14 run with a similar launch and I/Jpipe, so the power is there.
The only problem I see with our J-powered cars getting down the 1/4 mile is the launch. I believe type-s09 had a 2.1x 60' which would add more validity to his time. The simple fact is these cars have potential if they can be launched correctly (sub 2.1 60'). When I ran it was near perfect conditions and on a sea level track, so I was probably running on -DA which of course helped. But even If I managed to muster a 2.14x 60', I would've seen 13.8x. Plus, with traps at 100mph, what is there to question? If we were trapping 96-97 and putting up 13.9s then there would be doubts unless there was a serious 1.8-1.9 60'. But with a 100mph trap, 13s is achievable with a good launch.
The TL-S 6MT stock puts down ~250whp and I believe around 230wtq. They also weigh about 3500lbs without driver. I dyno'd 255whp/209wtq. While the torque is less, I have less weigh to move around (3200lbs without driver), so mid 13s isn't out of the question when we see traps as high as 101.x-102 for the TL-S stock.
A fellow Accord 6MT owner on (you know which site) ran a 13.1 @107mph with 256whp/217wtq/ Now he is just about fully gutted weighing in @2800lbs WITH driver. But still.
Last edited by Sonnick; 09-29-2010 at 12:10 PM.
09-29-2010, 01:12 PM
#75
Not trying to brag or show off but just for info i ran against a 6mt tl from a stop light........I was on my way home at a light when he pulled up next to me and revved his engine i asked if it was 6 speed and he said yes......the light turned green and we took off i had s little trouble catching traction since ive had this car for about two months.....but i managed to pull one car lenght and no more up to 80 we had to shut down.....after talking he has had his car for 3 years and we were both stock.......just thought i would share my experience
Last edited by zain22150; 09-29-2010 at 01:25 PM.
09-30-2010, 12:02 PM
#76
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
09-30-2010, 12:37 PM
#77
Team Owner
True
Story
Honda is focused on MPG whereas Nissan has always been focused on performance. From what I've read, the 5AT in the TL is long-legged, has ill-spaced gears, and a tight torque converter. The RWD/FWD 5ATs in the G/Z/Maxima/Altima are mostly geared for acceleration. The FWD 5ATs have a bit less gearing to reduce torque steer, but it's pretty aggressive. The Nissan 5ATs also come with fairly loose, small and efficent torque converters which help the car launch harder and feel more responsive. The downside is we typically see 10% to 15% lower mpgs compared to 5AT TLs.
In the 70% highway/30% driving in warm weather, with wider 18" rubber, and fairly sedate driving except for entrance ramps, I typically see 18=19mpg overall. In 100% highway, I'll see 26-29mpg. With the narrow OEM 17s, I typically pick up another 1 to 2 mpgs.
Story
Honda is focused on MPG whereas Nissan has always been focused on performance. From what I've read, the 5AT in the TL is long-legged, has ill-spaced gears, and a tight torque converter. The RWD/FWD 5ATs in the G/Z/Maxima/Altima are mostly geared for acceleration. The FWD 5ATs have a bit less gearing to reduce torque steer, but it's pretty aggressive. The Nissan 5ATs also come with fairly loose, small and efficent torque converters which help the car launch harder and feel more responsive. The downside is we typically see 10% to 15% lower mpgs compared to 5AT TLs.
In the 70% highway/30% driving in warm weather, with wider 18" rubber, and fairly sedate driving except for entrance ramps, I typically see 18=19mpg overall. In 100% highway, I'll see 26-29mpg. With the narrow OEM 17s, I typically pick up another 1 to 2 mpgs.
True on the convertor and gearing especially after 3rd. Convertor stalls around 1,500rpm. Something in th 2,400 range would completely change the performance of the car.
Gearing is not that bad from 1-3 but 4th is a pretty decent jump from 3rd and it falls on it's face until rpms get up there.
Just for reference I raced a stock '07-'08 5at TL, both stock. We were neck and neck but I manually held 3rd to redline and pulled 1 carlength when he shifted to 4th and then held that length until we shut down. I've had people think I let off the gas when it hit fourth.
I've never understood the whole double OD stuff. Make it a close ratio 4 speed with a single OD. I would love to change the final drive ratio but it's already some crazy number, in the 5:1 range and I doubt anyone makes a set. If/when the trans goes out I will be looking at a different final drive.
09-30-2010, 02:16 PM
#78
All motor
09-30-2010, 02:39 PM
#79
True on the convertor and gearing especially after 3rd. Convertor stalls around 1,500rpm. Something in th 2,400 range would completely change the performance of the car.
Gearing is not that bad from 1-3 but 4th is a pretty decent jump from 3rd and it falls on it's face until rpms get up there.
Just for reference I raced a stock '07-'08 5at TL, both stock. We were neck and neck but I manually held 3rd to redline and pulled 1 carlength when he shifted to 4th and then held that length until we shut down. I've had people think I let off the gas when it hit fourth.
I've never understood the whole double OD stuff. Make it a close ratio 4 speed with a single OD. I would love to change the final drive ratio but it's already some crazy number, in the 5:1 range and I doubt anyone makes a set. If/when the trans goes out I will be looking at a different final drive.
Gearing is not that bad from 1-3 but 4th is a pretty decent jump from 3rd and it falls on it's face until rpms get up there.
Just for reference I raced a stock '07-'08 5at TL, both stock. We were neck and neck but I manually held 3rd to redline and pulled 1 carlength when he shifted to 4th and then held that length until we shut down. I've had people think I let off the gas when it hit fourth.
I've never understood the whole double OD stuff. Make it a close ratio 4 speed with a single OD. I would love to change the final drive ratio but it's already some crazy number, in the 5:1 range and I doubt anyone makes a set. If/when the trans goes out I will be looking at a different final drive.
10-25-2010, 01:42 PM
#80
Team Owner
What is interesting to me is that my accord v6 5AT fourth gear is 9% shorter than the TL 5AT. The TL would really benefit from that! When my tranny hits 4th after redlining 3rd im sitting right around 4900rpm right in VTEC so it doesn't hit the brick wall thank goodness!