I canceled my subscription to C & D years ago. They are full of crap.

 

No they're not.

Rather, they're aware of the ultimate shortcomings of powerful, front wheel drive cars that are tuned to achieve a good COMPROMISE between ride and handling.

 

i like the TL b/c it looks like a sports sedan has power like a sports sedan and feels close to a sports sedan. with very good snow grip, and everything else is better then BMW and Infinity. so whats your pick? duah the TL

 

I think a good set of shocks (i.e. Koni "yellows") would go a long way toward improving the TL's overall handling traits...I'll be fitting a set of those immediately if I buy a TL and Konis is offering the shocks by then.

I expect the car's grip in the snow to be excellent with front drive, the LSD and the snow tires that I'd fit it with. That's a major advantage that the TL has over the 325i and the rear drive version of the G35.

 

I'm sorry but, I just CANT feel bad for Honda/Acura getting a 'less than spectacular review' in ANY auto mag, seeing as they've been getting top billing for the past 18 years or so.

Welcome to the real world.

 

The contradiction between this test and their previous one is hard to miss. How does the G35 that placed fourth (behind the old TL-S) now vault all the way to #1 without any significant improvement other than an AWD, which by the way, was not tested? Seems somewhat whimsical to me. I guess those of us waiting to see if the new TL could wrest the #1 spot from perennial front-runner BMW were disappointed. But by Infiniti? Gimme a break! With that interior designed by Rubbermaid and control placement an exercise in dashboard anarchy???

I have driven the G and, even though acceleration was great, handling wasn't noticeably better than the TL. Don't get me started on the brakes, they are another matter. They assume every stop is a panic stop. They have a mind of their own. Oh well, gives the dealers more reason to charge a premium. Now it considers it self a pseudo-Bimmer.

Maybe C&D is frustrated by Honda's stubborn desire to make the TL a FWD. In fact they said so. But not everybody cares to have a RWD. During the snowfalls I see so many Bimmers floundering around trying to get a grip while FWDs sail past them.

Overall, none of the cars tested matched the TL as a total package. But the TL will never place first in these tests. Why? Because, after the addition of a RWD, then it would be too perfect. Ever heard of a perfect guy placing first? Everybody likes the rogue element. Kind of like the difference between Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman. You see, Rodman gets Carmen Elektra but who does Jordan get? Name the magazine cover graced by Karla Knafel. These writers will just crown a new king of the entry level luxury segment. Maybe Audi, now that the G has placed first, twice. Or after a redesign, then the 3-series once more. But not Acura.

We should wait for Consumer Reports. You know MT, Automobile, R&T will come up with a different order even with these same cars. C&D sucks!!!!!!!!

 

>>We should wait for Consumer Reports.

Consumer Reports already did this comparo and the TL won.
And that was against the 330i, not 325!

 

The TL is a front wheel drive car, which my definition introduces MANY handling issues as one approaches the limits of adhesion.

That's inarguable.

MANY of the TL's chassis issues could be effectively addressed via the installation of a GOOD set of dampers (like Konis, once they introduce them for this car.)

Nevertheless, front drive remains a serious compromise in a PERFORMANCE car. And the TL is marketed partically as such.

 

CONSUMER REPORTS is more interested in how well the car hauls groceries than how it behaves in a decreasing radius turn @ 9/10ths under hard braking....

 

I don't think that Acura has the suspension completely baked on the TL, and I think C&D was spot on in their criticism of it in the comparison. There's a stretch of interstate near me (I-88 eastbound between Rt. 59 and Naperville Rd. for those of you around Chicago) that has an awful, undulating concrete surface.

My previous cars swallowed the undulations pretty well. The TL will pogo along with them (at ~60 mph), which leads me to believe that something isn't quite right between the spring rates and damping.

One of the surveys that I received from Acura asked a few questions around preference for a "firm ride". I think they're barking up the wrong tree. I want superior handling (not the best in the world, just superior) coupled with an ability to swallow road imperfections. My previous car ('98 SVT Contour) had a better balance between handling and ride than the TL does, and it never was set to oscillating by the road like the TL chassis can be.

Mike
'04 TL ABP/Q 5AT w. Mich PS A/S

 

I agree with everything you said.

Acura would at least offer a factory handling option. Instead they charge $5,200 for the A-spec parts and want another ~ $1K for installation. That's laughable. Who wants to buy a brand new, ~$34K car and have the springs, shocks wheels and tires replaced - BY THE DEALERSHIP - prior to delivery?

 

i dont care what C/D has to say i still would choose my baby(TL) over any other sports sedan

 

Watching this thread has been quite interesting. I think that blufox sums it up quite succinctly here. Why get so upset about how different car magazines or individuals rank your car? Not just the TL, but any car?! And I'm not singling out the TL. You see threads like this on ANY forum, particularly when CarX doesn't win MonthX's comparison.

I understand and appreciate loyalty, but frankly you spent a certain amount of money on a car--hopefully after doing all the required research to ensure the car most closely meets YOUR NEEDS AND WANTS--and you chose what you chose. You certainly COULD'VE bought a G35 or a 3-series or a whatever in the $30-35K range--and for many probably cars in the next few price ranges up--but you chose a TL. Someone else chose a G35 because their balance of needs/wants is a little different, someone else a 3-series for the their own reasons, and yet someone else a WRX STi for their own reasons.

At the risk of sounding like I'm saying, "Can't we all just get along?", people are getting WAY too upset about something that LITERALLY doesn't matter. Enjoy your car...whatever you chose and for which reasons you chose it.

 

Well spoken and on the mark. Nice post.

 

vtechbrain and anyone else who said it.... THANK YOU! finally someone realizes the sham of comparing the tl to the 3 series. the tl and 5 series are almost exactly the same dimensionally with the 5 having a 6 inch longer wheel base. and yes acura has admitted the 530 is the target for the tl. I love the look of the 5 but the tl kills it on value and reliability in my mind and the 5 series interior is unforgivably cheap. add in the fact that its 22k more for a similarly equipped 530 and its rightly considered to be a steal in the tl's favor. unless you have to have rwd and a propeller on your hood. and more to the point if you read the review [and the previous c+d review of the tl] you can easily see the bias for rwd and manual transmission. OTHERWISE they are saying the tl is a terrific car for the 90% of the time you arent driving it in the twisties or on rough pavement. I dont like manual transmissions being a lazy city boy [speaking of myself only, not all city boys] and a quiet comfortable blazing quick 4 door sedan that doesnt regularly break? hit my gotta have it factor pretty damned hard to the point that I bought one over an e320. which it killed in a head to head test drive by the way.

 

That's a biased opinion.

Those who are TRULY into corners, clipping apexes correctly, throttle induced oversteer, etc aren't willing to live with the compromises of front wheel drive in a (true) performance car.

I like the TL a lot; a good set of shocks would address some (though certainly not all) of the problems.

 

I like the guy that said Honda can't decide between sports and luxury. He hit the nail on the head and so did Acura. That's why these things are selling like hotcakes and they are back-ordered big time. One of the most appealing aspects about the TL is that it is just that- a luxury, sports sedan. You get the best of both worlds for a great price and Honda reliability to boot. What more could you ask for (besides RWD)?????

 

Selling like hotcakes?

My local Acura dealership (in Newport, RI) has been loaded to the gills with them since the car was introduced.

The car is more luxury than "sport," regardless of how Acura chooses to market it.

 

What exactly do you drive, anyway? If you do have an '04 TL than maybe you should trade it in for one of the RWD vehicles you seem to like so much. I am in favor of differing opinions as well as anyone else in this forum, but if you dislike this car so much, then why did you buy it? (or maybe you don't own one at all!).

As for the glut of TL's at your Newport, RI dealership, I hardly think that you can make this comment based on a single dealer's inventory. Have you been reading the papers lately? The TL is selling extremely well nationally, and has broken Acura Sales records.

Also. you should check the consumer ratings at automotive websites outside of this one. I think you will find that you have the minority opinion.

Just my 2-cents worth.

Greg S
2004 TL, Redondo Red/Parchment

 

The bottom line is this: car magazines are comparing the TL to the 3 series and similar models using "price points" as an excuse, when in actuality BMW, Mercedes, etc. are working to ensure that comparisons are NEVER made to 528/530/E320/A6. It's disgusting and dishonest, because consumers are clearly cross-shopping those models. Most of the BMW to Acura converts who post on our boards were driving 5-series Bimmers, including one who traded in a 540!

As I said before, don't expect any honest comparisons from the magazines...it's not in their mission statement.

 

I stand corrected. After going back and reading all of hardriven1e's posts, it's clear that you don't own a TL! That explains quite a lot!

Greg S.

 

Wow, that's a pretty cynical view. I most certainly shop a "price point" when I go out looking for a car. I have a general (pretty narrow range) that I'm willing to spend, and I find a car that fits my needs in that price range. That's the same way I (and a lot of other people) shop for other major purchases as well.

C&D is pretty consistent in how they choose vehicles for their comparos: similar class of vehicle within a pretty narrow price range. I don't smell a conspiracy in that; it seems to be a simple nod to many (most?) people's buying habits.

Mike

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I bought my TL because I liked the styling, but more than that, I was wanting to spend about 30 to 35k and it offered the most bang for the buck on features, power, and Honda reputation for reliability. Anyone who says that they aren't shopping price points is either full of S%$^ or looking at much more expensive cars than Acura TL's or BMW 330I's.

 

I own a 1999 LS1 Z28 equipped with the 1LE handling package. The car is also fitted with headers, a "cat back" exhaust system, B&M shifter, Recaro driver's seat, etc.

I also just leased a brand new Accord EX/V6/Leather sedan (and called the TIRE RACK this AM to address the skinny OEM rubber).

The TL is a very nice car. I simply think that it's suspension calibrations are wrong for a "performance sedan" and I don't think it's worth ~ $8K more than the Accord I just leased.

 

Thanks for your objective feedback. I respect your opinion, although I don't agree with your point of view.

There is more to the TL than just the suspension or FWD. It's the TOTAL PACKAGE, despite the minor nits, that makes this car an incredible value.

As for the Accord I, unlike you, feel that the $8K price differential for the TL is well worth the investment. The Accord is a great car, but I wouldn't even consider it. It is simply too plain and mainstream for my taste.

Also, as you may have guessed, I don't completely agree with C&D's assessment. Yes, what they noted is probably true. But again, I think they have a responsibility to all their readers to give a fair, balanced, and consistent evaluation. Furthermore, when a car like the TL has the best scores in 2 out of 3 categories, and is then surpassed by the BMW 325I (a car that doesn't even come close to the TL, except of course for the fact that it IS a Bimmer, and has RWD) makes me even more suspect of their objectivity.

Their problem is that once they get onto something (like not having RWD, or the torque steer issue that, IMHO, is totally overblown), their objectivity is compromised. Not to mention that if you go back to prior issues, they have a differing opinion on cars that have been reviewed more than once in various comparisisons. The G35 is a perfect example.

And my favorite nit with C&D is the fact that both the TSX and the Accord are among C&D's 10 Best for 2004, but not the TL. Go figure!

Greg S
2004 TL, Redondo Red/Parchment, Non-Navi
Michelin Pilot A/S Sport Tires
Gold Kit
Deck Lid Spolier
Mud Guards
Wheel Locks
Body Side Molding
Trunk Tray

 

Start driving that TL as though it's a TRUE performance car. Then do the same with a 3 series equipped with the handling package (or, for that matter, my 1LE Z28) and you'll understand what Car and Driver is talking about.

The cost difference to Honda between a TL and an Accord EX/V6/leather is probably $2k - max. That equates to a $6K difference in pure profit, which is HUGE for cars in that price range.

The story would change a little if the Acura's suspension were properly sorted. Thing is, it's not. It's under-damped, marginally under-sprung, uffers from terminal understeer near/@ the limit and it can't be balanced/steered with the throttle. (Partially) addressing those issues requires the purchaser fork over an ADDITIONAL ~ $6,500 to the Acura dealer so that he can "fix" what the factory seemingly can't do.

That's unsat.

Both the TSX and the Accord are better cars for the money/in their segments than the TL. So there's no "mystery" about C&D's failure to include the TL in C&D's 10 best.

 

How can you make these statements when you don't even own a TL? I have had mine for about 3-months now, and I am more convinced than ever I made the right choice. At the time I was shopping, I test drove the G35, BMW 3 and 5 Series, and the Sabb 9-3, and for my money there was no better choice.

Yes, the Bimmer was awesome, but to even come close to the equipment level and power of the TL you would have to spend an extra $5000 (minimum) for a 3-Series and significantly more for a 5-Series. As for the 325I, there are too many negatives - i.e. primarily the lack of power and cramped interior - for me to consider this a superior alternative.

A comparably equipped G35, although a very nice car was also significantly more money than the TL. As for the G35 interior, it looked and felt cheap (something that C&D noted in early reviews, but now seems to have forgotten).

I have driven my TL in all types of conditions, including driving it as a "performance car", and frankly I don't think the FWD makes that much difference. There is no question that RWD offers more stability, but there are far more important factors to consider when buying a car other than performance. As for it being under-damped, and under-sprung, I couldn't disagree more.

And lastly, with regard to C&D's 10 Best - the TSX, to my knowledge is marketed as a "sport/performance sedan, similar to the TL. Having read their 10 Best review, I cannot find anything they said about the TSX that doesn't apply to the TL

Let's just agree to disagree, and call it a day.

Greg S

 

How many REAL performance cars have you driven @/near the limit in your lifetime?

The TL I drove felt like a wet marshmallow compared to my 1LE Z28.

In stock form, the TL is a lot closer to an Accord EX/V6 fitted with a plus 1 tire upgrade (stock rims with 225/55-16 rubber) than it is to a TRUE performance car.

Acura began offering the dealer installed A-Spec package (including springs, shocks, wheels and rubber) the moment the car hit the dealerships.

Why do you suppose they bothered to do that?

The fact of the matter is that the 6 speed TL SHOULD come with the A-spec package (minus the silly bodywork, which does nothing but add cost and weight). The same package should be optional on automatic cars (along with the Brembo brakes, which can only be had in the 6 speed).

 

Ownership of the car doesn't validate an opinion. We all buy for our own reasons-Styling (I really dig the TL's!), Power, Performance, # of Doors, Size, Features, Gadgets etc...

The reason for car mags (whether paper or e-mags or message boards/forums like this one) is to discuss/review cars-Not all of us can carry on a back to back testing of comparably equipped cars such as the one in the C&D article.

I've steered clear of any FWD car due to my own previous experiences with a powerful FWD (Mitsubishi 3000GT). Even in a tiny Civic with no electronic stuff, FWD shows it bad manners under hard braking, at the limit acceleration or cornering. I've had the fortune of having a lot of time to test quite a few cars. I've tried the LS430, GS300, IS300, BMW 330I & various Audis in addition to the TL & TSX.

In test driving the TL during rainy conditions-which was ideal for my purposes...getting the car to it's limit without getting totally irresponsible speeds on public roads. The limitations of FWD are readilly apparent for what I wanted in my new car. I'm looking for a sport sedan and fun to drive and performance are high on my list of priorities. Pushing the car hard on the onramp-the steering wheel kicked back in my hand (even with all of the electronic systems in place and Limited slip differential). This feeling is very disconcerting if you're trying to keep control of the car with one hand on the steering wheel and the other on the stick shift. Pushing a car into a corner in the rain (or at the limits of adhesion during emergency situations) was less than confidence inspiring. Having a majority of the weight on the front tires while its trying to steer AND propel the car is asking an awful lot. There are some laws of physics that you just can't overcome using a computer. I'm in northern California and so, I don't have to deal with snow on my daily commute. Bottom line-FWD is not the platform for me.

Don't flame me...hours ago, I was talking serious with the salesman at my local Acura dealer-went their with my checkbook and pink slip. I like the car...ALOT. It is A LOT of bang for the buck. Killer sound system, a great list of standard features, great 0-60 times, killer voice system, bluetooth, etc. etc. etc.

Price wise-6MT, Navi, HPT and A-Spec, MSRP (which he was unwilling to move from) was just shy of $43k. They wanted $6900 for the A-Spec installed!!! This put it right with the BMW 330I with the performance package-235 Hp, suspension tweaks, body molding etc. $43k.

The BMW spoke to me. The near 50/50 weight distribution, excellent...and I mean excellent feedback from the steering wheel. The performance of the 330I 0-60 is identical to the TL (5.9 vs 5.8). Couldn't find any 1/4 mile time for the Perf Pkg 330I.

Without considering ANYTHING ELSE, the BMW wins based on seat of the pants driving impressions. I've HATED BMW's and only test drove the BMW at my friends insistent urging. I'm glad I did.

Yes, I know, the TL is supposed to be targeting the 5 series size wise, but, price wise, I can't justify the comparison. If it were my $55k for a comparably equipped 530, I certainly wouldn't be looking at the 30-35K price range. I'd cross shop the GS 430's and the E series.

And, no, I haven't bought any car yet. Just my thoughts. I'm still searching for THAT car at THAT price.

Johnny

 

The G35 Infiniti is supposedly pretty decent dynamically, though I personally don't care for the styling.

The entire A-spec thing is nuts. It should be a factory/RPO option that retails for ~ $1,800. $43K...Man...And virtually none of that would be worth a thing a resale.

I suspect the automatic tranny might mask some of the unpleasant torque steer issues you spoke of. Of course, that doesn't help if you want a 6 manual. And the automatic version of the TL comes with smaller front and rear anti-roll bars and isn't available with the performance rubber. So additional body roll and less grip would replace reduced torque steer.

On another note: I've owned/been driving performance cars for most of my life. I just leased an Accord EX/V6 sedan as a commuter/winter car. The car is astonishly refined, very well appointed and pretty damn fast...(It is under-tired, but that's being addressed tomorrow.) Technically, it's not a "sport sedan." It's pretty easy to think otherwise once you drive one. Triple digit cruising is effortless and serene.

 

If you run your Accord @ the track, let us know how you do. My wife and I were @ the Honda dealership this past weekend looking at the new AV6 EX sedan. Nice car all around with some bland styling. Granted, its not a sports sedan by any means. But, that doesnt mean it cant be made measurably sportier with some mods.

 

I don't plan on taking the Accord to "the track."

Everything's relative; my 1LE/LS1 Z28 would eat your G35 on "the track."

The main "handling" issue with the Accord is the fact that it's grossly under-tired (205/60-16). 225/55-16s are going on tomorrow.

"Bland" is a plus for fast driving because it's less noticed. Bright colors ,wings/fins, etc are counterproductive to the mission of speed.

 

Uhh....I have a Maxima, not G35. If I wanted LS1 type track numbers, I'd get an SVT Cobra. (sorry! if I go domestic, I'd go Ford. )

 

Which SVT Cobra?

Only the '03/'04 will run with a 1LE on a road racing circuit...

The Maxima (including the SE) is too softly sprung for performance driving....

 

2003/4:


The thing is SICK stock and only SICKER modded!!!! The car epitomizes BALLS!!!

As far as the Maxima being softly sprung, that's what mods are for.

 

Too bad you don't actually own a Cobra...

And a Z06 'Vette will hand the Cobra its a** on a road racing circuit...Ditto for the upcoming C6 Corvette...

I like the Cobra for what it is...Anyone who buys an '04 will have an "old car" in a matter of months when the all new '05 hits the streets.

 

Guys, if you love the toyotas, nissans or bimmers or other "lesser" cars, go make your own web site! This site is for us that know better!!!!!

 

 

A 1LE will not eat a G35 on a track unless it has alot of straights.

I had a fbody and well aware how they handle.

 

Let's see: I own a fully paid for 2000 Nissan Quest SE, my 2002 Maxima SE will be paid off by next June (04) so, it looks like I'm in the market for something else to add to the garage.

Guess what, the SVT Cobra while now an "old" model will be cheaper to 'procure' (than the Z06) AND still be a large can of whoopass. (Not to mention a collector's item.)


SORRY for the digression guys----Back to the TL vs C/D discussion.