Brake Swap
09-11-2004, 07:09 PM
#41
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There is so much misinformation in this thread, I almost don't know where to begin. This is what I do for a living and because of my engineering background, I am constantly learning more about brake technology, such as by attending seminars on ABS and dynamic stability control system design and, most recently, a clinic on friction technology taught by the former president of Hawk Friction. I am a retailer for Brembo and StopTech brakes and I've owned and/or installed brake upgrades from Mov'it, Alcon, AP Racing, Baer Racing, TCE, Wilwood and UUC (SSBC). I am receiving constant feedback from many customers in the field. So I do have a good working knowledge of the similarities and differences between the major brakes systems and I work closely with several major manufacturers.
With that as background, let me start to point out some of the differences between the Rotora BBK and the Brembo kit.
The Rotora kit uses 330mmx23mm 1-piece rotors with straight vanes. These rotors are manufactured in China. The Brembo kit uses 328mmx28mm 2-piece rotors with curved vanes. Brembo rotors are manufactured in Italy and have much higher quality metallurgy. The thinner Rotora rotors pump far less air than their Brembo counterparts, since the air gap is much smaller between the Rotora friction plates and the straight vanes are no match for the Brembo curved vanes. So a Rotora brake kit will run hotter under all conditions than a Brembo kit. Hotter brakes mean faster pad and rotor wear.
The expensive float mechanism on the Brembo rotors allows unconstrained expansion of the iron rotors during heavy use. The Rotora rotors will distort (cone) under high temperatures, causing tapered pad wear, softer pedal feel and greatly increasing the stress on the rotors. This, in turn, can lead to cracking. Rotora saved a huge amount of money by going with a non-floating design. Brembo isn't simply charging extra for their fancy logo and well known brand name. There is expensive hardware being used. I've written up a how-to on changing Brembo rotors which includes some photos of the float hardware. That will make it easier to visualize how floating rotors work. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Brembo/Rotor_Replacement.htm
By drilling AND slotting, the folks at Rotora have only succeeded in weakening the rotors, trading off extra "bling" for less safety. Brembo rotors are offered drilled or slotted, but not both. Drilling and slotting offer the same advantages as each other - better initial "bite" and helping keep a fresh surface on the pads. Drilling offers a marginal improvement over slotting in terms of weight savings - approximately 1/4 of a pound per rotor. Drilling has the disadvantage of allowing rotors to crack sooner under race conditions than slotted. Nobody who knows what they are doing will drill AND slot their rotors. Most racers use slotted rotors in order to avoid the cracking problem. Most folks who drive only on the street or take their car to shows prefer the look of drilled.
Let me now address some specific comments from the preceding posts:
Really? This is news to me and I've installed and supported many Brembo kits. If you're referring to the squealing problems some folks have been experiencing with the OEM Brembo brakes, that is easily solved by proper bedding. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm.
If you have some specific knowledge of Brembo quality problems, please share them.
What do you know about Brembo's manufacturing processes? For that matter, what do you know about Rotora's? Your posts sound more like a Rotora marketing campaign than a technical discussion. Were you given a 30% discount on your kit by a "connection you cannot divulge" in exchange for shameless plugs on the message board?
I have seen them in person and I can say they are inferior. The floating vs non-floating is a huge difference. The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure. StopTech is the champion at caliper stiffness and Brembo is right behind them. I suspect, from examining a Rotora caliper, that they are more similar to Willwood (the "wet noodle" of calipers). And the Chinese-made rotors which are slotted and drilled give me pause. I would never use them on the track. There's a thread on one of the BMW boards about a Rotura kit owner who went through three sets of rotors due to cracking when he tried to track his car.
Smoke and mirrors on Brembo's part? I don't think so. Brembo brakes are used on real race cars. Rotora is a big sponsor of drifting which has virtually no requirements on braking! That's where you'll see plenty of smoke, if not mirrors.
Brembo doesn't care if their customers' rotors crack? You have GOT to be kidding me! If Brembo brakes were dropping like flies, you would hear about it on all the message boards. And just imagine the product liability. Where do you come up with this stuff?
As for rotors cracking, I have been reading about Rotora problems on various forums. Here's the only one I can find as I write this: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...64#post1780264 I find myself in the ironic position of defending Rotura because of the way the information was being presented. However, some additional threads provided clarification and detail. I'll hunt for them and provide links when I find them again.
With that as background, let me start to point out some of the differences between the Rotora BBK and the Brembo kit.
The Rotora kit uses 330mmx23mm 1-piece rotors with straight vanes. These rotors are manufactured in China. The Brembo kit uses 328mmx28mm 2-piece rotors with curved vanes. Brembo rotors are manufactured in Italy and have much higher quality metallurgy. The thinner Rotora rotors pump far less air than their Brembo counterparts, since the air gap is much smaller between the Rotora friction plates and the straight vanes are no match for the Brembo curved vanes. So a Rotora brake kit will run hotter under all conditions than a Brembo kit. Hotter brakes mean faster pad and rotor wear.
The expensive float mechanism on the Brembo rotors allows unconstrained expansion of the iron rotors during heavy use. The Rotora rotors will distort (cone) under high temperatures, causing tapered pad wear, softer pedal feel and greatly increasing the stress on the rotors. This, in turn, can lead to cracking. Rotora saved a huge amount of money by going with a non-floating design. Brembo isn't simply charging extra for their fancy logo and well known brand name. There is expensive hardware being used. I've written up a how-to on changing Brembo rotors which includes some photos of the float hardware. That will make it easier to visualize how floating rotors work. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Brembo/Rotor_Replacement.htm
By drilling AND slotting, the folks at Rotora have only succeeded in weakening the rotors, trading off extra "bling" for less safety. Brembo rotors are offered drilled or slotted, but not both. Drilling and slotting offer the same advantages as each other - better initial "bite" and helping keep a fresh surface on the pads. Drilling offers a marginal improvement over slotting in terms of weight savings - approximately 1/4 of a pound per rotor. Drilling has the disadvantage of allowing rotors to crack sooner under race conditions than slotted. Nobody who knows what they are doing will drill AND slot their rotors. Most racers use slotted rotors in order to avoid the cracking problem. Most folks who drive only on the street or take their car to shows prefer the look of drilled.
Let me now address some specific comments from the preceding posts:
Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Honestly Brembo kinda sucks arse and there are always problomes with it.
If you have some specific knowledge of Brembo quality problems, please share them.
Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
I will say that brembo has come along way in their manufacturing processes but in no way are they better than any other major brand name company for the money they charge. They charge it because they can and sell their "name" for hundreds if not thousands more which in my book is disgusting just because they "can". Also, Rotora DOES manufacture their own ceramic brakes. If you have an unlimited bankroll and it makes you sleep better at night buying the psychological aspect of the big brembo, then they played you like they play everyone else who is willing to spend their money on them and they are HAPPY to take it. I will give credit to them for their engineering and development but give me a break their systems are not that great worthy of the money they ask.
Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
if you saw the rotora kit in person you cannot possibly say that is a lesser quality than the brembo. The rotora kit does use a 1 piece rotor which is the SAME size as the brembo kit even if it is 2 piece. It has to fit the exact same specs on the car for mounting inorder to insure proper alignment and the rotors cannot be bigger or thinker unless the calipers or pads are smaller to compensate or it will interfere with mounting the wheels and so fourth. The rotora rotors are MASSIVE. If you saw the rotora calipers, they will blow you away and are in no way smaller than the brembos. I think i'll stick with my awesome setup and save the extra grand which is just smoke and mirrors on brembo's part. Ever hear of brand name drugs and their generic or store band counterparts? The price is VASTLY different for the SAME chemical formulation and ingredients and what you are paying out the nose for is the brand name's marketing and recognition. Some people who do not think logically think it's a better product just because it's a brand name and that ios exactly what the company is hoping for. It means NOTHING. Same goes here so I don't feel like paying $ 1000 of my money to help Brembo advertise.
Smoke and mirrors on Brembo's part? I don't think so. Brembo brakes are used on real race cars. Rotora is a big sponsor of drifting which has virtually no requirements on braking! That's where you'll see plenty of smoke, if not mirrors.
Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
the brembos that are all cross drilled as opposed to cross drilled and slotted are MUCH more prone to cracking and warping as opposed to half the amount of cross drills on the rotoras + the addition of slots which make for a much stronger rotor that is far less prone to cracking. Tell me why a $ 2500 set of brembo's is like this..oh wait, maybe because they actually don;t care if it does crack ( or even warranty it for that matter) because they know that they same suckers will just go ahead and replace it because they have an unlimited bankroll.
As for rotors cracking, I have been reading about Rotora problems on various forums. Here's the only one I can find as I write this: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...64#post1780264 I find myself in the ironic position of defending Rotura because of the way the information was being presented. However, some additional threads provided clarification and detail. I'll hunt for them and provide links when I find them again.
09-11-2004, 07:59 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by DZeckhausen
There is so much misinformation in this thread, I almost don't know where to begin. This is what I do for a living and because of my engineering background, I am constantly learning more about brake technology, such as by attending seminars on ABS and dynamic stability control system design and, most recently, a clinic on friction technology taught by the former president of Hawk Friction. I am a retailer for Brembo and StopTech brakes and I've owned and/or installed brake upgrades from Mov'it, Alcon, AP Racing, Baer Racing, TCE, Wilwood and UUC (SSBC). I am receiving constant feedback from many customers in the field. So I do have a good working knowledge of the similarities and differences between the major brakes systems and I work closely with several major manufacturers.
With that as background, let me start to point out some of the differences between the Rotora BBK and the Brembo kit.
The Rotora kit uses 330mmx23mm 1-piece rotors with straight vanes. These rotors are manufactured in China. The Brembo kit uses 328mmx28mm 2-piece rotors with curved vanes. Brembo rotors are manufactured in Italy and have much higher quality metallurgy. The thinner Rotora rotors pump far less air than their Brembo counterparts, since the air gap is much smaller between the Rotora friction plates and the straight vanes are no match for the Brembo curved vanes. So a Rotora brake kit will run hotter under all conditions than a Brembo kit. Hotter brakes mean faster pad and rotor wear.
The expensive float mechanism on the Brembo rotors allows unconstrained expansion of the iron rotors during heavy use. The Rotora rotors will distort (cone) under high temperatures, causing tapered pad wear, softer pedal feel and greatly increasing the stress on the rotors. This, in turn, can lead to cracking. Rotora saved a huge amount of money by going with a non-floating design. Brembo isn't simply charging extra for their fancy logo and well known brand name. There is expensive hardware being used. I've written up a how-to on changing Brembo rotors which includes some photos of the float hardware. That will make it easier to visualize how floating rotors work. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Brembo/Rotor_Replacement.htm
By drilling AND slotting, the folks at Rotora have only succeeded in weakening the rotors, trading off extra "bling" for less safety. Brembo rotors are offered drilled or slotted, but not both. Drilling and slotting offer the same advantages as each other - better initial "bite" and helping keep a fresh surface on the pads. Drilling offers a marginal improvement over slotting in terms of weight savings - approximately 1/4 of a pound per rotor. Drilling has the disadvantage of allowing rotors to crack sooner under race conditions than slotted. Nobody who knows what they are doing will drill AND slot their rotors. Most racers use slotted rotors in order to avoid the cracking problem. Most folks who drive only on the street or take their car to shows prefer the look of drilled.
Let me now address some specific comments from the preceding posts:
Really? This is news to me and I've installed and supported many Brembo kits. If you're referring to the squealing problems some folks have been experiencing with the OEM Brembo brakes, that is easily solved by proper bedding. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm.
If you have some specific knowledge of Brembo quality problems, please share them.
What do you know about Brembo's manufacturing processes? For that matter, what do you know about Rotora's? Your posts sound more like a Rotora marketing campaign than a technical discussion. Were you given a 30% discount on your kit by a "connection you cannot divulge" in exchange for shameless plugs on the message board?
I have seen them in person and I can say they are inferior. The floating vs non-floating is a huge difference. The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure. StopTech is the champion at caliper stiffness and Brembo is right behind them. I suspect, from examining a Rotora caliper, that they are more similar to Willwood (the "wet noodle" of calipers). And the Chinese-made rotors which are slotted and drilled give me pause. I would never use them on the track. There's a thread on one of the BMW boards about a Rotura kit owner who went through three sets of rotors due to cracking when he tried to track his car.
Smoke and mirrors on Brembo's part? I don't think so. Brembo brakes are used on real race cars. Rotora is a big sponsor of drifting which has virtually no requirements on braking! That's where you'll see plenty of smoke, if not mirrors.
Brembo doesn't care if their customers' rotors crack? You have GOT to be kidding me! If Brembo brakes were dropping like flies, you would hear about it on all the message boards. And just imagine the product liability. Where do you come up with this stuff?
As for rotors cracking, I have been reading about Rotora problems on various forums. Here's the only one I can find as I write this: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...64#post1780264 I find myself in the ironic position of defending Rotura because of the way the information was being presented. However, some additional threads provided clarification and detail. I'll hunt for them and provide links when I find them again.
With that as background, let me start to point out some of the differences between the Rotora BBK and the Brembo kit.
The Rotora kit uses 330mmx23mm 1-piece rotors with straight vanes. These rotors are manufactured in China. The Brembo kit uses 328mmx28mm 2-piece rotors with curved vanes. Brembo rotors are manufactured in Italy and have much higher quality metallurgy. The thinner Rotora rotors pump far less air than their Brembo counterparts, since the air gap is much smaller between the Rotora friction plates and the straight vanes are no match for the Brembo curved vanes. So a Rotora brake kit will run hotter under all conditions than a Brembo kit. Hotter brakes mean faster pad and rotor wear.
The expensive float mechanism on the Brembo rotors allows unconstrained expansion of the iron rotors during heavy use. The Rotora rotors will distort (cone) under high temperatures, causing tapered pad wear, softer pedal feel and greatly increasing the stress on the rotors. This, in turn, can lead to cracking. Rotora saved a huge amount of money by going with a non-floating design. Brembo isn't simply charging extra for their fancy logo and well known brand name. There is expensive hardware being used. I've written up a how-to on changing Brembo rotors which includes some photos of the float hardware. That will make it easier to visualize how floating rotors work. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Brembo/Rotor_Replacement.htm
By drilling AND slotting, the folks at Rotora have only succeeded in weakening the rotors, trading off extra "bling" for less safety. Brembo rotors are offered drilled or slotted, but not both. Drilling and slotting offer the same advantages as each other - better initial "bite" and helping keep a fresh surface on the pads. Drilling offers a marginal improvement over slotting in terms of weight savings - approximately 1/4 of a pound per rotor. Drilling has the disadvantage of allowing rotors to crack sooner under race conditions than slotted. Nobody who knows what they are doing will drill AND slot their rotors. Most racers use slotted rotors in order to avoid the cracking problem. Most folks who drive only on the street or take their car to shows prefer the look of drilled.
Let me now address some specific comments from the preceding posts:
Really? This is news to me and I've installed and supported many Brembo kits. If you're referring to the squealing problems some folks have been experiencing with the OEM Brembo brakes, that is easily solved by proper bedding. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm.
If you have some specific knowledge of Brembo quality problems, please share them.
What do you know about Brembo's manufacturing processes? For that matter, what do you know about Rotora's? Your posts sound more like a Rotora marketing campaign than a technical discussion. Were you given a 30% discount on your kit by a "connection you cannot divulge" in exchange for shameless plugs on the message board?
I have seen them in person and I can say they are inferior. The floating vs non-floating is a huge difference. The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure. StopTech is the champion at caliper stiffness and Brembo is right behind them. I suspect, from examining a Rotora caliper, that they are more similar to Willwood (the "wet noodle" of calipers). And the Chinese-made rotors which are slotted and drilled give me pause. I would never use them on the track. There's a thread on one of the BMW boards about a Rotura kit owner who went through three sets of rotors due to cracking when he tried to track his car.
Smoke and mirrors on Brembo's part? I don't think so. Brembo brakes are used on real race cars. Rotora is a big sponsor of drifting which has virtually no requirements on braking! That's where you'll see plenty of smoke, if not mirrors.
Brembo doesn't care if their customers' rotors crack? You have GOT to be kidding me! If Brembo brakes were dropping like flies, you would hear about it on all the message boards. And just imagine the product liability. Where do you come up with this stuff?
As for rotors cracking, I have been reading about Rotora problems on various forums. Here's the only one I can find as I write this: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...64#post1780264 I find myself in the ironic position of defending Rotura because of the way the information was being presented. However, some additional threads provided clarification and detail. I'll hunt for them and provide links when I find them again.
09-11-2004, 08:26 PM
#43
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if anything, i would agree with every thing DZeckhausen has to say. His answer compares to everything i have every read and learned thru all of my enginneering courses, and first hand knowledge i have aquired. i never directly compared the two manufactures as i didnt know enough about rotoras products, and with out studying the technical specs i wouldnt make that judgement.
either way, what anyone should do before they buy, is to research it themselves... your footing the bill, get what you pay for. if it were me the added cost of the brembos would be prohibitive, but if i were upgrading i would find a way to get the money
either way, what anyone should do before they buy, is to research it themselves... your footing the bill, get what you pay for. if it were me the added cost of the brembos would be prohibitive, but if i were upgrading i would find a way to get the money
09-12-2004, 12:21 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by DZeckhausen
There is so much misinformation in this thread, I almost don't know where to begin. This is what I do for a living and because of my engineering background, I am constantly learning more about brake technology, such as by attending seminars on ABS and dynamic stability control system design and, most recently, a clinic on friction technology taught by the former president of Hawk Friction. I am a retailer for Brembo and StopTech brakes and I've owned and/or installed brake upgrades from Mov'it, Alcon, AP Racing, Baer Racing, TCE, Wilwood and UUC (SSBC). I am receiving constant feedback from many customers in the field. So I do have a good working knowledge of the similarities and differences between the major brakes systems and I work closely with several major manufacturers.
With that as background, let me start to point out some of the differences between the Rotora BBK and the Brembo kit.
The Rotora kit uses 330mmx23mm 1-piece rotors with straight vanes. These rotors are manufactured in China. The Brembo kit uses 328mmx28mm 2-piece rotors with curved vanes. Brembo rotors are manufactured in Italy and have much higher quality metallurgy. The thinner Rotora rotors pump far less air than their Brembo counterparts, since the air gap is much smaller between the Rotora friction plates and the straight vanes are no match for the Brembo curved vanes. So a Rotora brake kit will run hotter under all conditions than a Brembo kit. Hotter brakes mean faster pad and rotor wear.
The expensive float mechanism on the Brembo rotors allows unconstrained expansion of the iron rotors during heavy use. The Rotora rotors will distort (cone) under high temperatures, causing tapered pad wear, softer pedal feel and greatly increasing the stress on the rotors. This, in turn, can lead to cracking. Rotora saved a huge amount of money by going with a non-floating design. Brembo isn't simply charging extra for their fancy logo and well known brand name. There is expensive hardware being used. I've written up a how-to on changing Brembo rotors which includes some photos of the float hardware. That will make it easier to visualize how floating rotors work. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Brembo/Rotor_Replacement.htm
By drilling AND slotting, the folks at Rotora have only succeeded in weakening the rotors, trading off extra "bling" for less safety. Brembo rotors are offered drilled or slotted, but not both. Drilling and slotting offer the same advantages as each other - better initial "bite" and helping keep a fresh surface on the pads. Drilling offers a marginal improvement over slotting in terms of weight savings - approximately 1/4 of a pound per rotor. Drilling has the disadvantage of allowing rotors to crack sooner under race conditions than slotted. Nobody who knows what they are doing will drill AND slot their rotors. Most racers use slotted rotors in order to avoid the cracking problem. Most folks who drive only on the street or take their car to shows prefer the look of drilled.
Let me now address some specific comments from the preceding posts:
Really? This is news to me and I've installed and supported many Brembo kits. If you're referring to the squealing problems some folks have been experiencing with the OEM Brembo brakes, that is easily solved by proper bedding. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm.
If you have some specific knowledge of Brembo quality problems, please share them.
What do you know about Brembo's manufacturing processes? For that matter, what do you know about Rotora's? Your posts sound more like a Rotora marketing campaign than a technical discussion. Were you given a 30% discount on your kit by a "connection you cannot divulge" in exchange for shameless plugs on the message board?
I have seen them in person and I can say they are inferior. The floating vs non-floating is a huge difference. The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure. StopTech is the champion at caliper stiffness and Brembo is right behind them. I suspect, from examining a Rotora caliper, that they are more similar to Willwood (the "wet noodle" of calipers). And the Chinese-made rotors which are slotted and drilled give me pause. I would never use them on the track. There's a thread on one of the BMW boards about a Rotura kit owner who went through three sets of rotors due to cracking when he tried to track his car.
Smoke and mirrors on Brembo's part? I don't think so. Brembo brakes are used on real race cars. Rotora is a big sponsor of drifting which has virtually no requirements on braking! That's where you'll see plenty of smoke, if not mirrors.
Brembo doesn't care if their customers' rotors crack? You have GOT to be kidding me! If Brembo brakes were dropping like flies, you would hear about it on all the message boards. And just imagine the product liability. Where do you come up with this stuff?
As for rotors cracking, I have been reading about Rotora problems on various forums. Here's the only one I can find as I write this: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...64#post1780264 I find myself in the ironic position of defending Rotura because of the way the information was being presented. However, some additional threads provided clarification and detail. I'll hunt for them and provide links when I find them again.
With that as background, let me start to point out some of the differences between the Rotora BBK and the Brembo kit.
The Rotora kit uses 330mmx23mm 1-piece rotors with straight vanes. These rotors are manufactured in China. The Brembo kit uses 328mmx28mm 2-piece rotors with curved vanes. Brembo rotors are manufactured in Italy and have much higher quality metallurgy. The thinner Rotora rotors pump far less air than their Brembo counterparts, since the air gap is much smaller between the Rotora friction plates and the straight vanes are no match for the Brembo curved vanes. So a Rotora brake kit will run hotter under all conditions than a Brembo kit. Hotter brakes mean faster pad and rotor wear.
The expensive float mechanism on the Brembo rotors allows unconstrained expansion of the iron rotors during heavy use. The Rotora rotors will distort (cone) under high temperatures, causing tapered pad wear, softer pedal feel and greatly increasing the stress on the rotors. This, in turn, can lead to cracking. Rotora saved a huge amount of money by going with a non-floating design. Brembo isn't simply charging extra for their fancy logo and well known brand name. There is expensive hardware being used. I've written up a how-to on changing Brembo rotors which includes some photos of the float hardware. That will make it easier to visualize how floating rotors work. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Brembo/Rotor_Replacement.htm
By drilling AND slotting, the folks at Rotora have only succeeded in weakening the rotors, trading off extra "bling" for less safety. Brembo rotors are offered drilled or slotted, but not both. Drilling and slotting offer the same advantages as each other - better initial "bite" and helping keep a fresh surface on the pads. Drilling offers a marginal improvement over slotting in terms of weight savings - approximately 1/4 of a pound per rotor. Drilling has the disadvantage of allowing rotors to crack sooner under race conditions than slotted. Nobody who knows what they are doing will drill AND slot their rotors. Most racers use slotted rotors in order to avoid the cracking problem. Most folks who drive only on the street or take their car to shows prefer the look of drilled.
Let me now address some specific comments from the preceding posts:
Really? This is news to me and I've installed and supported many Brembo kits. If you're referring to the squealing problems some folks have been experiencing with the OEM Brembo brakes, that is easily solved by proper bedding. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm.
If you have some specific knowledge of Brembo quality problems, please share them.
What do you know about Brembo's manufacturing processes? For that matter, what do you know about Rotora's? Your posts sound more like a Rotora marketing campaign than a technical discussion. Were you given a 30% discount on your kit by a "connection you cannot divulge" in exchange for shameless plugs on the message board?
I have seen them in person and I can say they are inferior. The floating vs non-floating is a huge difference. The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure. StopTech is the champion at caliper stiffness and Brembo is right behind them. I suspect, from examining a Rotora caliper, that they are more similar to Willwood (the "wet noodle" of calipers). And the Chinese-made rotors which are slotted and drilled give me pause. I would never use them on the track. There's a thread on one of the BMW boards about a Rotura kit owner who went through three sets of rotors due to cracking when he tried to track his car.
Smoke and mirrors on Brembo's part? I don't think so. Brembo brakes are used on real race cars. Rotora is a big sponsor of drifting which has virtually no requirements on braking! That's where you'll see plenty of smoke, if not mirrors.
Brembo doesn't care if their customers' rotors crack? You have GOT to be kidding me! If Brembo brakes were dropping like flies, you would hear about it on all the message boards. And just imagine the product liability. Where do you come up with this stuff?
As for rotors cracking, I have been reading about Rotora problems on various forums. Here's the only one I can find as I write this: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...64#post1780264 I find myself in the ironic position of defending Rotura because of the way the information was being presented. However, some additional threads provided clarification and detail. I'll hunt for them and provide links when I find them again.
Btw, I have a 5AT so I have shit brakes according to all of you anyways. I don't give a flying F one way or another, I'm not racing. My brakes are great and I don't have either.
09-12-2004, 07:31 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by ColStripe
I'm sure as myself appreciate your detailed explainations DZeckhausen, but alot of your explainations are very marketing oriented.
Btw, I have a 5AT so I have shit brakes according to all of you anyways. I don't give a flying F one way or another, I'm not racing. My brakes are great and I don't have either.
Btw, I have a 5AT so I have shit brakes according to all of you anyways. I don't give a flying F one way or another, I'm not racing. My brakes are great and I don't have either.
Sounds like DZeckhausen is a TROLL who works for Brembo. Look at his join date and posts! Oh and YES, the brakes on our 5at are just great as well, even before I decided to go for the rotora upgrade. They also stopped on a dime!
09-12-2004, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Thank you for noticing that! Sounds like DZeckhausen is a TROLL who works for Brembo. Look at his join date and posts! Oh and YES, the brakes on our 5at are just great as well, even before I decided to go for the rotora upgrade. They also stopped on a dime!
Sounds like DZeckhausen is a TROLL who works for Brembo. Look at his join date and posts! Oh and YES, the brakes on our 5at are just great as well, even before I decided to go for the rotora upgrade. They also stopped on a dime!
09-12-2004, 11:06 AM
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Um, loser!
Originally Posted by caball88
dude what is your problem against this guy? he gave one of the most detailed explanations behind the differences of brakes between the brembos and the rotoras. the evidence is clear and the price difference is obvious. the rotoras are much cheaper than the brembos but you get what you pay for. if i had a 5AT and wanted to upgrade my brakes i would look for something else other than the rotoras.
"The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure"
He has No F_kin Idea what he is talking about. Like he pulled that shit out of his ass!. Thats' the most REDICULOUS, idotic and plain old stupid thing I have ever heard . That's just one of the retarded things he said in his post. Another one is about the "floating rotors" Floating rotors means that they float on the hub and can be removed and replaced easily and cheaply. Whatever rotor you buy, it still floats on the car axle the same as it does on my Honda civic and many other japanese and american cars. It has nothing to do with the way a rotor is made whatsoever but rather a design aspect of the car and brakes used today in general. His entire post is a total " political marketing scheme" like he is running for president or something and we all know what all politicians are! Full of $hit. Like I said he is a stupid troll who is probably a competitor and if you are naieve enough to believe him with no substantiated proof yourself, then you are a fool too. Sure, i can make up whatever I want to and say i'm the president of the united states, but until you PROVE what you say, talk is cheap. Money talks and bull$hit walks.
09-12-2004, 11:41 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
well dude, then you my friend are as ignorant as him because if he can make a comment like
"The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure"
He has No F_kin Idea what he is talking about. Like he pulled that shit out of his ass!. Thats' the most REDICULOUS, idotic and plain old stupid thing I have ever heard . That's just one of the retarded things he said in his post. Another one is about the "floating rotors" Floating rotors means that they float on the hub and can be removed and replaced easily and cheaply. Whatever rotor you buy, it still floats on the car axle the same as it does on my Honda civic and many other japanese and american cars. It has nothing to do with the way a rotor is made whatsoever but rather a design aspect of the car and brakes used today in general. His entire post is a total " political marketing scheme" like he is running for president or something and we all know what all politicians are! Full of $hit. Like I said he is a stupid troll who is probably a competitor and if you are naieve enough to believe him with no substantiated proof yourself, then you are a fool too. Sure, i can make up whatever I want to and say i'm the president of the united states, but until you PROVE what you say, talk is cheap. Money talks and bull$hit walks.
"The calipers are smaller and thinner, thus not as stiff as the Brembo. Stiff calipers translate into better pedal feel and more efficiency for a given hydraulic pressure"
He has No F_kin Idea what he is talking about. Like he pulled that shit out of his ass!. Thats' the most REDICULOUS, idotic and plain old stupid thing I have ever heard . That's just one of the retarded things he said in his post. Another one is about the "floating rotors" Floating rotors means that they float on the hub and can be removed and replaced easily and cheaply. Whatever rotor you buy, it still floats on the car axle the same as it does on my Honda civic and many other japanese and american cars. It has nothing to do with the way a rotor is made whatsoever but rather a design aspect of the car and brakes used today in general. His entire post is a total " political marketing scheme" like he is running for president or something and we all know what all politicians are! Full of $hit. Like I said he is a stupid troll who is probably a competitor and if you are naieve enough to believe him with no substantiated proof yourself, then you are a fool too. Sure, i can make up whatever I want to and say i'm the president of the united states, but until you PROVE what you say, talk is cheap. Money talks and bull$hit walks.
Floating Rotors
09-12-2004, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ColStripe
Btw, I have a 5AT so I have shit brakes according to all of you anyways. I don't give a flying F one way or another, I'm not racing. My brakes are great and I don't have either.
For someone who only drives on the street, tire selection is vastly more important than brake selection in terms of minimizing stopping distance. Lose the all-season tires and install a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3 or Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires.
Of course, if you are looking for an aesthetic upgrade, then your decision is based on a different set of criteria. Those criteria may shift to caliper color, wheel fitment, and price. For street driving conditions, your individual choices may well lead you down the path to a set of Rotora brakes.
The purpose of my post was to address the misinformation that was presented claiming the Rotora brakes were interchangable with the more expensive Brembo brakes. There are significant differences in the design and materials between these two products.
09-12-2004, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
He has No F_kin Idea what he is talking about. Like he pulled that shit out of his ass!. Thats' the most REDICULOUS, idotic and plain old stupid thing I have ever heard . Money talks and bull$hit walks.
The money talks comment is sooooo true. In this instance if you HAD the money your ride would be wearing Brembos, but since you don't you have opted to go with CHINESE braking technology from Rotara!! hope they don't give out on you!
Good luck!
09-12-2004, 01:55 PM
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Let me chime in.
1. Brembo does make some of the top brakes. Brembo is also known as the premier brake company. Their premium brake kits are top notch and IMO worth the dough.
2. Brembo is going the "Bose" route with slapping Brembo on some brakes and letting Nissan and Acura advertise them as such. Well these kits are not spectacular in any shape or form. If you read any magazine review, the brakes have NEVER shined, which is sad considering they are supposed to be "Brembos". The 350X track model for instance with it's Brembos are not so TRACK. YES, they are better than any OEM unit. The Brembos on the 6speed TL are better than the auto brakes. PERIOD.
3. Unless you slot and cross drill the rotors YOURSELF, they are not prone to cracking. Brake companies do tons of research on where to drill to ensure they are fine.
4. Brake upgrades are not about stopping in quicker distances. It is rare for this to happen. It is about FADE. For those that go to the track, even heavy stop and go trafffic, bigger brakes do resist fade, the feeling when you press your brake pedal and you have to push harder to make the car stop. Brake upgrades let you drive for hours and the 50th stop will feel like the 1st. OEM units cannot provide that. OEM Brembo kits do improve this, YES.
5. Stoptechs, IMO are the best, clearly not as well known as Brembo but offer basically the same features for less. Rotora ARE a big brake company but as stated, still smaller and heavier than Brembos top kits.
6. The differecen between 1 piece and 2 piece are the HAT. The part that attaches to the rotor and attaches to the wheels. 1 piece means heaver since it's cut from the same metal as the brakes. 2-piece is lighter since it's bolted on the brake, not heavy metal.
7. The BEST 1st step upgrade is better pads. OEM pads are built for life and quiet.
For some GREAT reading on the benefits of BBK (Big brake Kit) read this
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
1. Brembo does make some of the top brakes. Brembo is also known as the premier brake company. Their premium brake kits are top notch and IMO worth the dough.
2. Brembo is going the "Bose" route with slapping Brembo on some brakes and letting Nissan and Acura advertise them as such. Well these kits are not spectacular in any shape or form. If you read any magazine review, the brakes have NEVER shined, which is sad considering they are supposed to be "Brembos". The 350X track model for instance with it's Brembos are not so TRACK. YES, they are better than any OEM unit. The Brembos on the 6speed TL are better than the auto brakes. PERIOD.
3. Unless you slot and cross drill the rotors YOURSELF, they are not prone to cracking. Brake companies do tons of research on where to drill to ensure they are fine.
4. Brake upgrades are not about stopping in quicker distances. It is rare for this to happen. It is about FADE. For those that go to the track, even heavy stop and go trafffic, bigger brakes do resist fade, the feeling when you press your brake pedal and you have to push harder to make the car stop. Brake upgrades let you drive for hours and the 50th stop will feel like the 1st. OEM units cannot provide that. OEM Brembo kits do improve this, YES.
5. Stoptechs, IMO are the best, clearly not as well known as Brembo but offer basically the same features for less. Rotora ARE a big brake company but as stated, still smaller and heavier than Brembos top kits.
6. The differecen between 1 piece and 2 piece are the HAT. The part that attaches to the rotor and attaches to the wheels. 1 piece means heaver since it's cut from the same metal as the brakes. 2-piece is lighter since it's bolted on the brake, not heavy metal.
7. The BEST 1st step upgrade is better pads. OEM pads are built for life and quiet.
For some GREAT reading on the benefits of BBK (Big brake Kit) read this
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
09-12-2004, 02:12 PM
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[IMG]Here are some pics of different brands of some of our members Lexus models. We do not agree at all Brembo is the best. One of the best, clearly.[/IMG]
AP Racing - 6 Piston - 13.5" Slotted & Cross Drilled Rotors
Supra TT upgrade but with drilled and slotted rotors and red paint
After what 12 years, the first brakes to beat the Supra TT in stopping distance was the $440,000 Porsche GT. These brakes are heavy, compared to a true BBK kit.
Brembo Grand Turismo 355 mm plus Volk Racing GTC Face 1
StopTech 4-Piston 14" Brake SLOTTED only
StopTech 4-Piston 14" Brake Drilled only
Rotora 13" setup...
Stop Tech 4 corner big brake upgrade FRONT and REAR!
355 MM (14") Brembo GTs
AP Racing - 6 Piston - 13.5" Slotted & Cross Drilled Rotors
Supra TT upgrade but with drilled and slotted rotors and red paintAfter what 12 years, the first brakes to beat the Supra TT in stopping distance was the $440,000 Porsche GT.
These brakes are heavy, compared to a true BBK kit.Brembo Grand Turismo 355 mm plus Volk Racing GTC Face 1
StopTech 4-Piston 14" Brake SLOTTED only StopTech 4-Piston 14" Brake Drilled only
Rotora 13" setup... 355 MM (14") Brembo GTs
09-12-2004, 02:13 PM
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More reading on comparing stock to OEM Brembo to a true upgrade BBK
Mike 
Originally Posted by IS Pilot
Introduction
I had the opportunity to spend some time at StopTech in Torrance, California this December. After a day at the test track and 3 days at the shop, I have a much better understanding and appreciation for the engineering and testing that goes into making their big brake kits work so well.
StopTech's Balanced Brake System Philosophy
StopTech places tremendous emphasis on the concept of a balanced brake system. While they have several patents related to rotor cooling and caliper stiffness, what sets StopTech apart from other big brake companies is their dedication to preserving the factory balance. As the chart below indicates, a brake kit with too much rear bias not only results in longer stopping distances, but is unstable without the assistance of electronic stabilization control or ABS. I can relate to this with my road race car which has an adjustable proportioning valve. The handling gets pretty scary when I've got too much hydraulic pressure going to the rear brakes.
Stopping distance vs. front/rear brake bias (Audi S4 data)
If the brakes are too front biased, the front brakes tend to lock up prematurely and the stopping distances become longer, both with and without ABS. StopTech controls the bias of their kits by retaining the stock master cylinder and juggling caliper piston and rotor sizes to recreate the factory brake torque balance.
The Audi S4 kit was used to generate the numbers for the chart above. StopTech makes 3 different kits for that car, all of which are better balanced than even the factory brakes. You can see that an Audi S4 kit using the Brembo F50 caliper and a 355mm diameter rotor would be front biased due to the larger piston sizes used in that caliper. The same caliper on a 332mm rotor isn't quite as bad and produces the counterintuitive result of shorter stopping distances than the same kit with bigger rotors! A Porsche "Big Red" conversion that uses adapter brackets to attach Porsche 993TT front and rear calipers and rotors to the Audi S4 is rear biased and not only has a longer stopping distance, but it might even be somewhat unstable during hard stops if ABS is disabled.
By careful selection of caliper piston sizes and exhaustive track testing (as you'll see below), StopTech has the potential to yield the shortest stopping distances of any aftermarket brake kit, combined with safe and stable handling.
Track Testing the Nissan 350Z
I flew out to California from New Jersey late Tuesday night, December 10th, arriving around midnight. I was picked up at my hotel the next day at 6:30 AM by Ilja, the StopTech test driver, and we drove for over an hour to a former military airstrip in Camarillo that StopTech had rented for the day. Two Nissan 350Z sports cars, a silver Performance model and a copper Track model were waiting for us. A third car would arrive late in the afternoon for the 355mm front and 4-wheel brake kit testing.
The Nissan 350Z test cars
Test Area Set-Up
The first order of business was to set up the test area. Matt Weiss spent nearly an hour with a gas powered leaf blower, cleaning off the braking zone. Other folks laid out cones to mark the braking zones and skid pad area. A radar gun was set up on a tripod and a cover fitted to prevent aircraft radar reflections from interfering with our test data. The radar was interfaced to a laptop running custom software that calculated and plotted stopping distances and produced tables with all sorts of information.
Steve setting up the radar gun and laptop
The support van was filled with tools and different sized calipers to be tried on the various cars. There were three different kits to be tested this day, including a 332mm front, 355mm front, and a 4-wheel kit. In addition, we needed to test the stock brakes on the Performance and the Track models in order to have something to compare against. All the tests (except the 4-wheel brake upgrade) were to be conducted using the same tire make and model in the same size and on the same size wheels. We had a long day ahead of us!
The van loaded with tools and brakes
Steve Ruiz suspected that the factory Brembo brakes had never been properly broken in, so he used that as an opportunity to spend some quality time with me (zooming to 100 mph, then standing on the brakes - over and over again) while casually explaining all the tests we would be running and how the data would be collected. Frankly, I think he was just trying to see how many g's I could take before throwing up. Fortunately, I don't get motion sick, but I now have an appreciation for what my customers go through when I take them along to break in their new brakes.
Steve was correct about the factory brakes not being bedded in. They went into green fade and then, after cooling off, felt much stronger than when we first tried them out. Now we could run a fair comparison test.
350Z Track Model with Brembo brakes
Nissan 350Z Track Model Brakes
Our first goal was to fully characterize the factory brakes. So we started our testing with the Nissan 350Z "track model." Ilja would drive to the end of the runway and then turn around and head straight for the radar station at about 64 mph. When he reached the last of three cones, he would apply the brakes fully, allowing ABS to activate. The laptop started collecting data before the stop was initiated and kept on collecting data after the car was stopped. Steve used the mouse to "lasso" the data on the graph from 60mph to 0mph and discard the rest. This left us with a plotted graph that showed how the car performed during the 60mph to 0 portion of the stop. It's pretty much a straight line. This technique is more accurate than relying on the driver to try to go exactly 60 mph and then stomp the brakes. It also eliminates the differences between runs where the driver may hit the brakes more quickly on one run than another. Many magazines test brakes this way, although some use the less accurate and less repeatable method of relying on the driver to gauge when he's going 60 mph. It's important, when comparing tests to know how the data was collected.
We ran the car through ten back-to-back stops from 60 mph. Each time the car stopped, we quickly measured and recorded the front and rear rotor temperatures and then sent the car around for another pass. After five or six passes, the rotor temperatures stabilized. The front rotors reached 565 °F and the rear rotors reached 370 °F. We did a total of 10 stops from 60mph and the temperatures varied by about +/- 10 °F, but it was clear that we could keep this up all day and they wouldn't get any hotter. The average stopping distance was 117.3 feet.
Measuring rotor temperatures after an 80 mph stop
Next, we ran through six stops from 80 mph, collecting the same data. The front rotors stabilized at 590 °F and the rear at 400 °F. Average stopping distance was 208.7 feet. And finally, we did four stops from 100 mph. It was somewhat disconcerting to see the car heading straight for us at that speed, but there wasn't a hint of fade from the Brembo brakes on the 350Z Track model. The final rotor temperatures were 721 °F in front and 477 °F in the rear and the stopping distances averaged 328.3 feet.
Stopping the 350Z Track Model from 100 mph
The next phase of the test is to determine how the brakes interact with ABS and the stability control system. We ran a test called a Modified J-Turn Test, which is used by engineers who design ABS systems. A skid pad is laid out with cones and very carefully measured calibration points are marked with dots of paint. Then, the car is driven around the skid pad to find the maximum speed it can navigate the constant radius turn. The 350Z managed to reach 46.5 mph.
Locking up the brakes in the Modified J-Turn Test
Next, the driver makes a run at the skid pad at 46.5mph. Partway through the turn, he locks up the brakes and the car comes to a stop. A tape measure is then laid out between the calibrated dots nearest where the car stopped. Then, a measurement is taken from each wheel to that tape with the measurement taken along the line of sight from the wheel to a calibrated reference point. The distance from wheel to tape is recorded as is the distances from the dots and this is all entered into a laptop. Car wheelbase and track is also entered. The laptop does some crunching of numbers and comes up with the "departure angle" of the car from the intended direction. If it is outside of a narrow range, the brake system needs to be rebalanced with either larger or smaller pistons in the front or rear calipers.
Preparing to measure points for Departure Angle calculation
Of course, the factory Brembo system on the 350Z Track model passed the J-Turn test, as was expected. The results did show the brakes to be somewhat front biased.
The final test for the Track Model was to disable the ABS system and conduct a high speed stop to see if the front or rear brakes locked up prematurely. This test was completed without incident.
Nissan 350Z Performance Model Brakes
Now it was time to test the 350Z Performance Model, which comes from Nissan with the more typical, single-piston, floating calipers and much smaller rotors. We were all very interested to see how the two factory cars would compare. After ten stops from 60mph, the front rotor temperature stabilized at around 700 °F, 135 degrees higher than the track model. The rear rotor temperatures reached 478 °F, which was 108 degrees higher. The average stopping distance was 118.0 feet, which was less than one foot longer than the Track model. Very interesting. We figured the difference would become more significant at higher speeds, so we pressed on.
Stopping the 350Z Performance Model from 80 mph
After six stops from 80mph, and then four stops from 100 mph, the front rotors reach 804 °F and the stopping distances began to increase as fade set in. I began to wonder which way to dive if the car couldn't stop, but figured the test driver would expect us to stay still and would swerve around us. I kicked myself for not asking about this before we started! Stopping distances from 80mph and 100mph averaged 210.5 and 333.6 feet respectively. That's within 5 feet at 100 mph and within 2 feet from 80 mph of the 350Z Track Model's performance. The Brembo brakes didn't seem to make a significant difference on stopping performance until the cars started doing repeated 100mph stops, at which point the increased thermal capacity of the bigger rotors kept brake fade at bay, while the Performance model with smaller brakes began to experience fade.
The J-Turn test and the ABS-disabled test went without incident.
The fraternal twins cooling down after the initial brake tests
Now the real work was about to begin. It was time to test the StopTech 332mm and 355mm front brake kits But first the cars needed to cool down a bit.
Preparing for the brake installations
While the cars cooled, we pulled out the ramps, tools, and brake kits to prepare for some field installations. I took this opportunity to wolf down some chicken drumsticks that Ilja had in his cooler. My jet-lagged stomach was telling me it was time for lunch, even though it was still mid morning.
The pit crew goes to work on the 350Z Track model
Since the silver car was still too hot to work on, we decided to take a closer look at the Brembo brakes on the 350Z Track model.
A close-up of the Track model's factory Brembo set-up
We pulled the wheels off and took some measurements. The 350Z Track model comes with front rotors that are 324mm x 30mm and rear rotors that are 322mm x 22mm. So, despite the hype, the rotors on that car aren't as massive as I had expected. Even the smaller of the two StopTech front brake kits we were about to test was significantly larger at 332mm x 32mm.
Even more shocking is the price of replacement Brembo rotors for the 350Z track model. Front rotors (p/n 40206-CD000) are $519 each and rear rotors (p/n 43206-CD000) are $494 each from the local Nissan parts counter. In comparison, the non-Track Nissan 350Z rotors are $111 each for both front and rear.
Now it's the Silver 350Z Performance model's turn. Stock brakes shown
StopTech 332mm Front Big Brake Kit
After we put the 350Z Track model back together, it was time to install the first brake kit on the silver 350Z Performance model. I rolled up my sleeves to help and did most of the installation on one side while someone else worked on the other.
While removing parts, I measured the rotors. The front rotor was only 296mm x 24mm and the rear was 292mm x 16mm. That is a skinny rear rotor! I don't think the Performance model will stand up to any serious track use.
[img]http://www.zeckhausen.com/images/brake_testing/Brake_Swap5.JPG[img/]
Mat finishes the installation while I munch on chicken drumsticks
After the StopTech 332mm front kit was installed and the brakes bled, Ilja took it out to the end of the runway and did a series of stops to bed in the new pads and rotors. After it was broken in, he cruised back and forth to let the brakes cool down. Then it was time to start with the measured brake testing again.
Measuring Rotor Temperature after 100mph Stop
As before, we did twenty stops, the first ten from 60mph, followed by six stops from 80mph and then four stops from 100mph. The difference was noticeable even at 60mph. The stops were several feet shorter than the stock brakes and the rotor temperature was 155 degrees cooler after just 10 stops. From 100mph, the car stopped 4.3 feet sooner. Interestingly, the stock rear brakes were nearly 100 degrees hotter than they were during the first test with the stock front brakes. This makes sense because the stock brakes are front biased and the rear brakes weren't really doing their fair share of braking. With both StopTech front kits, the bias was shifted slightly back and the rear brakes did more work, thus they ran hotter. That's why the stopping distances went down measurably when the StopTech brakes were installed.
Next, it was time to go back to the skid pad for the modified J-turn test. The results of that test showed the car to be within acceptable limits. The ABS-disabled test was also successful, so the kit was deemed to be market ready. Often, the results of the J-Turn test will mean that they have to go back to the van and install a different set of calipers with slightly larger or smaller pistons. Thankfully this one was good to go on the first try. Even so, it took several hours to test.
StopTech 355mm Front Big Brake Kit
Now it was time to test the StopTech 355mm kit. The third test car had arrived with the StopTech 355mm front brakes already installed. This car also had Toyo Proxes tires and a modified suspension, so a direct comparison to the other cars is not really possible. We ran through the full set of 20 stops again and found the massive front rotors to be 268 degrees cooler than the stock rotors after the first ten stops from 60mph and the stopping distances were slightly better than the smaller StopTech kit. The slight improvement was probably due to the tires, since the balance was engineered to be the same as the smaller kit. The J-Turn tests and ABS tests were again aced on the first try.
That was two kits down and one more to go.
Cutting away the backing plate to make room for the 355mm x 32mm rear rotor
StopTech 4-Wheel Big Brake Kit Kit
The final brake kit to be tested was the 4-wheel big brake kit with 355mm rotors at all four corners. Given the undersized stock rear rotors on the 350Z, this is the kit that will need to be used by anyone who plans to seriously race this car.
Up on the jacks went the third test car again. The rear brakes were installed and the front calipers switched to ones with bigger caliper pistons. The tiny 292mm x 16mm stock rotors were replaced with the much larger StopTech 355mm x 32mm rotors, requiring that the old backing plates be cut away to make room. Tin snips made short work of the backing plate trimming and the rear kit was installed. Next, the front calipers were replaced with ones that were sized to work with the StopTech rear kit They utilized larger caliper pistons. We had several sets to try and the plan had been to run through them in sequence to zero in on the optimum pair. But we were out of time, so the decision was made to gamble on the caliper with the smallest pistons in order to shift more braking to the rear.
Smoke rising from the front brakes (hard to see in photo)
By the time we finished installing the rear brakes, it was getting dark. We would have to conduct the braking tests with flashlights. We maneuvered all the vehicles so they illuminated the braking zone and the radar gun and made the first run from 60mph.
That first run was the best one that had been made all day. I don't have the data from that run, but I recall it was around 111 feet from 60mph. We thought we had another winner. Then things started to go downhill quickly.
Lots of smoke rising from the rear brakes
As we made a few more runs, the stopping distances increased as did the rear rotor temperatures. It was obvious that we had picked the wrong set of calipers for the front. Unfortunately, we were out of time, so we aborted the braking runs and moved over to the skid pad to conduct the J-Turn test. That test confirmed that we were too rear biased, as did the ABS test. Out of time and out of daylight, we decided to pack it in at 8:00 PM and continue the 4-wheel kit testing another day. We were exhausted after such a grueling day, but there was still work to do, picking up cones, putting away tools, and cleaning up the test area.
We stopped for dinner on the way back to the hotel and had a chance to talk about the day's testing. A tremendous amount of data had been collected and we hadn't really had a chance to absorb and process it all. I was starting to gain a deeper appreciation for the amount of work required to prepare a StopTech brake kit for market.
I had the opportunity to spend some time at StopTech in Torrance, California this December. After a day at the test track and 3 days at the shop, I have a much better understanding and appreciation for the engineering and testing that goes into making their big brake kits work so well.
StopTech's Balanced Brake System Philosophy
StopTech places tremendous emphasis on the concept of a balanced brake system. While they have several patents related to rotor cooling and caliper stiffness, what sets StopTech apart from other big brake companies is their dedication to preserving the factory balance. As the chart below indicates, a brake kit with too much rear bias not only results in longer stopping distances, but is unstable without the assistance of electronic stabilization control or ABS. I can relate to this with my road race car which has an adjustable proportioning valve. The handling gets pretty scary when I've got too much hydraulic pressure going to the rear brakes.
Stopping distance vs. front/rear brake bias (Audi S4 data)
If the brakes are too front biased, the front brakes tend to lock up prematurely and the stopping distances become longer, both with and without ABS. StopTech controls the bias of their kits by retaining the stock master cylinder and juggling caliper piston and rotor sizes to recreate the factory brake torque balance.
The Audi S4 kit was used to generate the numbers for the chart above. StopTech makes 3 different kits for that car, all of which are better balanced than even the factory brakes. You can see that an Audi S4 kit using the Brembo F50 caliper and a 355mm diameter rotor would be front biased due to the larger piston sizes used in that caliper. The same caliper on a 332mm rotor isn't quite as bad and produces the counterintuitive result of shorter stopping distances than the same kit with bigger rotors! A Porsche "Big Red" conversion that uses adapter brackets to attach Porsche 993TT front and rear calipers and rotors to the Audi S4 is rear biased and not only has a longer stopping distance, but it might even be somewhat unstable during hard stops if ABS is disabled.
By careful selection of caliper piston sizes and exhaustive track testing (as you'll see below), StopTech has the potential to yield the shortest stopping distances of any aftermarket brake kit, combined with safe and stable handling.
Track Testing the Nissan 350Z
I flew out to California from New Jersey late Tuesday night, December 10th, arriving around midnight. I was picked up at my hotel the next day at 6:30 AM by Ilja, the StopTech test driver, and we drove for over an hour to a former military airstrip in Camarillo that StopTech had rented for the day. Two Nissan 350Z sports cars, a silver Performance model and a copper Track model were waiting for us. A third car would arrive late in the afternoon for the 355mm front and 4-wheel brake kit testing.
The Nissan 350Z test cars
Test Area Set-Up
The first order of business was to set up the test area. Matt Weiss spent nearly an hour with a gas powered leaf blower, cleaning off the braking zone. Other folks laid out cones to mark the braking zones and skid pad area. A radar gun was set up on a tripod and a cover fitted to prevent aircraft radar reflections from interfering with our test data. The radar was interfaced to a laptop running custom software that calculated and plotted stopping distances and produced tables with all sorts of information.
Steve setting up the radar gun and laptop
The support van was filled with tools and different sized calipers to be tried on the various cars. There were three different kits to be tested this day, including a 332mm front, 355mm front, and a 4-wheel kit. In addition, we needed to test the stock brakes on the Performance and the Track models in order to have something to compare against. All the tests (except the 4-wheel brake upgrade) were to be conducted using the same tire make and model in the same size and on the same size wheels. We had a long day ahead of us!
The van loaded with tools and brakes
Steve Ruiz suspected that the factory Brembo brakes had never been properly broken in, so he used that as an opportunity to spend some quality time with me (zooming to 100 mph, then standing on the brakes - over and over again) while casually explaining all the tests we would be running and how the data would be collected. Frankly, I think he was just trying to see how many g's I could take before throwing up. Fortunately, I don't get motion sick, but I now have an appreciation for what my customers go through when I take them along to break in their new brakes.
Steve was correct about the factory brakes not being bedded in. They went into green fade and then, after cooling off, felt much stronger than when we first tried them out. Now we could run a fair comparison test.
350Z Track Model with Brembo brakes
Nissan 350Z Track Model Brakes
Our first goal was to fully characterize the factory brakes. So we started our testing with the Nissan 350Z "track model." Ilja would drive to the end of the runway and then turn around and head straight for the radar station at about 64 mph. When he reached the last of three cones, he would apply the brakes fully, allowing ABS to activate. The laptop started collecting data before the stop was initiated and kept on collecting data after the car was stopped. Steve used the mouse to "lasso" the data on the graph from 60mph to 0mph and discard the rest. This left us with a plotted graph that showed how the car performed during the 60mph to 0 portion of the stop. It's pretty much a straight line. This technique is more accurate than relying on the driver to try to go exactly 60 mph and then stomp the brakes. It also eliminates the differences between runs where the driver may hit the brakes more quickly on one run than another. Many magazines test brakes this way, although some use the less accurate and less repeatable method of relying on the driver to gauge when he's going 60 mph. It's important, when comparing tests to know how the data was collected.
We ran the car through ten back-to-back stops from 60 mph. Each time the car stopped, we quickly measured and recorded the front and rear rotor temperatures and then sent the car around for another pass. After five or six passes, the rotor temperatures stabilized. The front rotors reached 565 °F and the rear rotors reached 370 °F. We did a total of 10 stops from 60mph and the temperatures varied by about +/- 10 °F, but it was clear that we could keep this up all day and they wouldn't get any hotter. The average stopping distance was 117.3 feet.
Measuring rotor temperatures after an 80 mph stop
Next, we ran through six stops from 80 mph, collecting the same data. The front rotors stabilized at 590 °F and the rear at 400 °F. Average stopping distance was 208.7 feet. And finally, we did four stops from 100 mph. It was somewhat disconcerting to see the car heading straight for us at that speed, but there wasn't a hint of fade from the Brembo brakes on the 350Z Track model. The final rotor temperatures were 721 °F in front and 477 °F in the rear and the stopping distances averaged 328.3 feet.
Stopping the 350Z Track Model from 100 mph
The next phase of the test is to determine how the brakes interact with ABS and the stability control system. We ran a test called a Modified J-Turn Test, which is used by engineers who design ABS systems. A skid pad is laid out with cones and very carefully measured calibration points are marked with dots of paint. Then, the car is driven around the skid pad to find the maximum speed it can navigate the constant radius turn. The 350Z managed to reach 46.5 mph.
Locking up the brakes in the Modified J-Turn Test
Next, the driver makes a run at the skid pad at 46.5mph. Partway through the turn, he locks up the brakes and the car comes to a stop. A tape measure is then laid out between the calibrated dots nearest where the car stopped. Then, a measurement is taken from each wheel to that tape with the measurement taken along the line of sight from the wheel to a calibrated reference point. The distance from wheel to tape is recorded as is the distances from the dots and this is all entered into a laptop. Car wheelbase and track is also entered. The laptop does some crunching of numbers and comes up with the "departure angle" of the car from the intended direction. If it is outside of a narrow range, the brake system needs to be rebalanced with either larger or smaller pistons in the front or rear calipers.
Preparing to measure points for Departure Angle calculation
Of course, the factory Brembo system on the 350Z Track model passed the J-Turn test, as was expected. The results did show the brakes to be somewhat front biased.
The final test for the Track Model was to disable the ABS system and conduct a high speed stop to see if the front or rear brakes locked up prematurely. This test was completed without incident.
Nissan 350Z Performance Model Brakes
Now it was time to test the 350Z Performance Model, which comes from Nissan with the more typical, single-piston, floating calipers and much smaller rotors. We were all very interested to see how the two factory cars would compare. After ten stops from 60mph, the front rotor temperature stabilized at around 700 °F, 135 degrees higher than the track model. The rear rotor temperatures reached 478 °F, which was 108 degrees higher. The average stopping distance was 118.0 feet, which was less than one foot longer than the Track model. Very interesting. We figured the difference would become more significant at higher speeds, so we pressed on.
Stopping the 350Z Performance Model from 80 mph
After six stops from 80mph, and then four stops from 100 mph, the front rotors reach 804 °F and the stopping distances began to increase as fade set in. I began to wonder which way to dive if the car couldn't stop, but figured the test driver would expect us to stay still and would swerve around us. I kicked myself for not asking about this before we started! Stopping distances from 80mph and 100mph averaged 210.5 and 333.6 feet respectively. That's within 5 feet at 100 mph and within 2 feet from 80 mph of the 350Z Track Model's performance. The Brembo brakes didn't seem to make a significant difference on stopping performance until the cars started doing repeated 100mph stops, at which point the increased thermal capacity of the bigger rotors kept brake fade at bay, while the Performance model with smaller brakes began to experience fade.
The J-Turn test and the ABS-disabled test went without incident.
The fraternal twins cooling down after the initial brake tests
Now the real work was about to begin. It was time to test the StopTech 332mm and 355mm front brake kits But first the cars needed to cool down a bit.
Preparing for the brake installations
While the cars cooled, we pulled out the ramps, tools, and brake kits to prepare for some field installations. I took this opportunity to wolf down some chicken drumsticks that Ilja had in his cooler. My jet-lagged stomach was telling me it was time for lunch, even though it was still mid morning.
The pit crew goes to work on the 350Z Track model
Since the silver car was still too hot to work on, we decided to take a closer look at the Brembo brakes on the 350Z Track model.
A close-up of the Track model's factory Brembo set-up
We pulled the wheels off and took some measurements. The 350Z Track model comes with front rotors that are 324mm x 30mm and rear rotors that are 322mm x 22mm. So, despite the hype, the rotors on that car aren't as massive as I had expected. Even the smaller of the two StopTech front brake kits we were about to test was significantly larger at 332mm x 32mm.
Even more shocking is the price of replacement Brembo rotors for the 350Z track model. Front rotors (p/n 40206-CD000) are $519 each and rear rotors (p/n 43206-CD000) are $494 each from the local Nissan parts counter. In comparison, the non-Track Nissan 350Z rotors are $111 each for both front and rear.
Now it's the Silver 350Z Performance model's turn. Stock brakes shown
StopTech 332mm Front Big Brake Kit
After we put the 350Z Track model back together, it was time to install the first brake kit on the silver 350Z Performance model. I rolled up my sleeves to help and did most of the installation on one side while someone else worked on the other.
While removing parts, I measured the rotors. The front rotor was only 296mm x 24mm and the rear was 292mm x 16mm. That is a skinny rear rotor! I don't think the Performance model will stand up to any serious track use.
[img]http://www.zeckhausen.com/images/brake_testing/Brake_Swap5.JPG[img/]
Mat finishes the installation while I munch on chicken drumsticks
After the StopTech 332mm front kit was installed and the brakes bled, Ilja took it out to the end of the runway and did a series of stops to bed in the new pads and rotors. After it was broken in, he cruised back and forth to let the brakes cool down. Then it was time to start with the measured brake testing again.
Measuring Rotor Temperature after 100mph Stop
As before, we did twenty stops, the first ten from 60mph, followed by six stops from 80mph and then four stops from 100mph. The difference was noticeable even at 60mph. The stops were several feet shorter than the stock brakes and the rotor temperature was 155 degrees cooler after just 10 stops. From 100mph, the car stopped 4.3 feet sooner. Interestingly, the stock rear brakes were nearly 100 degrees hotter than they were during the first test with the stock front brakes. This makes sense because the stock brakes are front biased and the rear brakes weren't really doing their fair share of braking. With both StopTech front kits, the bias was shifted slightly back and the rear brakes did more work, thus they ran hotter. That's why the stopping distances went down measurably when the StopTech brakes were installed.
Next, it was time to go back to the skid pad for the modified J-turn test. The results of that test showed the car to be within acceptable limits. The ABS-disabled test was also successful, so the kit was deemed to be market ready. Often, the results of the J-Turn test will mean that they have to go back to the van and install a different set of calipers with slightly larger or smaller pistons. Thankfully this one was good to go on the first try. Even so, it took several hours to test.
StopTech 355mm Front Big Brake Kit
Now it was time to test the StopTech 355mm kit. The third test car had arrived with the StopTech 355mm front brakes already installed. This car also had Toyo Proxes tires and a modified suspension, so a direct comparison to the other cars is not really possible. We ran through the full set of 20 stops again and found the massive front rotors to be 268 degrees cooler than the stock rotors after the first ten stops from 60mph and the stopping distances were slightly better than the smaller StopTech kit. The slight improvement was probably due to the tires, since the balance was engineered to be the same as the smaller kit. The J-Turn tests and ABS tests were again aced on the first try.
That was two kits down and one more to go.
Cutting away the backing plate to make room for the 355mm x 32mm rear rotor
StopTech 4-Wheel Big Brake Kit Kit
The final brake kit to be tested was the 4-wheel big brake kit with 355mm rotors at all four corners. Given the undersized stock rear rotors on the 350Z, this is the kit that will need to be used by anyone who plans to seriously race this car.
Up on the jacks went the third test car again. The rear brakes were installed and the front calipers switched to ones with bigger caliper pistons. The tiny 292mm x 16mm stock rotors were replaced with the much larger StopTech 355mm x 32mm rotors, requiring that the old backing plates be cut away to make room. Tin snips made short work of the backing plate trimming and the rear kit was installed. Next, the front calipers were replaced with ones that were sized to work with the StopTech rear kit They utilized larger caliper pistons. We had several sets to try and the plan had been to run through them in sequence to zero in on the optimum pair. But we were out of time, so the decision was made to gamble on the caliper with the smallest pistons in order to shift more braking to the rear.
Smoke rising from the front brakes (hard to see in photo)
By the time we finished installing the rear brakes, it was getting dark. We would have to conduct the braking tests with flashlights. We maneuvered all the vehicles so they illuminated the braking zone and the radar gun and made the first run from 60mph.
That first run was the best one that had been made all day. I don't have the data from that run, but I recall it was around 111 feet from 60mph. We thought we had another winner. Then things started to go downhill quickly.
Lots of smoke rising from the rear brakes
As we made a few more runs, the stopping distances increased as did the rear rotor temperatures. It was obvious that we had picked the wrong set of calipers for the front. Unfortunately, we were out of time, so we aborted the braking runs and moved over to the skid pad to conduct the J-Turn test. That test confirmed that we were too rear biased, as did the ABS test. Out of time and out of daylight, we decided to pack it in at 8:00 PM and continue the 4-wheel kit testing another day. We were exhausted after such a grueling day, but there was still work to do, picking up cones, putting away tools, and cleaning up the test area.
We stopped for dinner on the way back to the hotel and had a chance to talk about the day's testing. A tremendous amount of data had been collected and we hadn't really had a chance to absorb and process it all. I was starting to gain a deeper appreciation for the amount of work required to prepare a StopTech brake kit for market.
09-12-2004, 03:10 PM
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Nice Try But
Originally Posted by Nodoze2004
Almost as RIDICULOUS as your spelling!
The money talks comment is sooooo true. In this instance if you HAD the money your ride would be wearing Brembos, but since you don't you have opted to go with CHINESE braking technology from Rotara!! hope they don't give out on you!
Good luck!
The money talks comment is sooooo true. In this instance if you HAD the money your ride would be wearing Brembos, but since you don't you have opted to go with CHINESE braking technology from Rotara!! hope they don't give out on you!
Good luck!
Maybe you even bought them on e-bay and spent more than retail like half of non-educated e-bayers do who do not do their research before buying something. I would say you remove the remark about Chinese people or the connotation that Chinese products are inferior in any way because you are profiling them and it is unsubstantiated. Not only that but may I remind you that 95% of everything we buy in the united states is made in another country and not the U.S so that remark is completely unsupported. I don't know where you get your information that the rotora kit is made in China anyhow. Do you own them to see where they are made? Are you a spy that brembo sends out to other manufacturing plants to see what technology people are working on and then steals them? Just an FYI that produts made in America are not so great in my opinion and lets not start the " American labor" crap or get into Nationalism and supporting our country because it won't fly with me. Why don't you buy me a set of brembos and I'll see for myself if you are so sure that they are better than the Rotorasa or any other brand for that matter and i'll tellyou if they are! Brembo =mediocre performance for the price paid and NOT outstanding like their precious name implies. Amazing how marketing will brainwash people into brand recognition. I know maybe you are on the TRACK all day and see the cars with the big brembo sponsor logo on them so it is burned in your brain. Kind of like pavlovs dog and the ringing bell. Woof Woof..good dog
09-12-2004, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
If I had the oney I would be driving a Maybach but none of us here probably do. I'm really sorry that you spent nearly double the money on your brembo kit and they don't perform like you expected so now you have buyers remorse and want my Rotoras! How sad! Maybe you even bought them on e-bay and spent more than retail like half of non-educated e-bayers do who do not do their research before buying something. I would say you remove the remark about Chinese people or the connotation that Chinese products are inferior in any way because you are profiling them and it is unsubstantiated. Not only that but may I remind you that 95% of everything we buy in the united states is made in another country and not the U.S so that remark is completely unsupported. I don't know where you get your information that the rotora kit is made in China anyhow. Do you own them to see where they are made? Are you a spy that brembo sends out to other manufacturing plants to see what technology people are working on and then steals them? Just an FYI that produts made in America are not so great in my opinion and lets not start the " American labor" crap or get into Nationalism and supporting our country because it won't fly with me. Why don't you buy me a set of brembos and I'll see for myself if you are so sure that they are better than the Rotorasa or any other brand for that matter and i'll tellyou if they are! Brembo =mediocre performance for the price paid and NOT outstanding like their precious name implies. Amazing how marketing will brainwash people into brand recognition. I know maybe you are on the TRACK all day and see the cars with the big brembo sponsor logo on them so it is burned in your brain. Kind of like pavlovs dog and the ringing bell. Woof Woof..good dog
Maybe you even bought them on e-bay and spent more than retail like half of non-educated e-bayers do who do not do their research before buying something. I would say you remove the remark about Chinese people or the connotation that Chinese products are inferior in any way because you are profiling them and it is unsubstantiated. Not only that but may I remind you that 95% of everything we buy in the united states is made in another country and not the U.S so that remark is completely unsupported. I don't know where you get your information that the rotora kit is made in China anyhow. Do you own them to see where they are made? Are you a spy that brembo sends out to other manufacturing plants to see what technology people are working on and then steals them? Just an FYI that produts made in America are not so great in my opinion and lets not start the " American labor" crap or get into Nationalism and supporting our country because it won't fly with me. Why don't you buy me a set of brembos and I'll see for myself if you are so sure that they are better than the Rotorasa or any other brand for that matter and i'll tellyou if they are! Brembo =mediocre performance for the price paid and NOT outstanding like their precious name implies. Amazing how marketing will brainwash people into brand recognition. I know maybe you are on the TRACK all day and see the cars with the big brembo sponsor logo on them so it is burned in your brain. Kind of like pavlovs dog and the ringing bell. Woof Woof..good dog
09-12-2004, 04:12 PM
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not necessarily
Originally Posted by caball88
you still have not a valid argument and just still just bashing brembos for not living up to their price tag. If the rotora's are made in china then their is a serious quality issue to keep in mind. i would like to stay away from stereotyping "Made in China" products, but its very eveident why manufacturers contract their products out to china to make. its cheaper. labor is cheaper and that in turn leads usually to quality being cheaper. everyone understands that you can't get something for nothing. when you try to lower cost you have to start to cut things here and there to bring manufacturing costs of a product down. the fact that 1-piece is cheaper than 2 piece rotor helps to reduce cost. making the product cheaper but inferior in design to a 2 piece floating rotor. i would assume that this cascades to the other parts of the kit like the caliper as well. if you look at all the big brake kits out there and how they are priced most of them are about the same price with brembos being the most expensive. are you buying some of their market hype? probably but they do offer a great product with no cost cutting areas where the performance will be compromised. while the rotoras do compromise a superior rotor design to reduce cost. i would advise others that were looking for a big brake kit to look at other kits other than the rotora. Stoptech makes great kits and the prices are reasonable as well.
09-12-2004, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Just because a product is made in another country does NOT mean that there is a serious quality issue to be concerned about. That would be the farthset thing frot he truth. The truth is that the manufacturer has exacting specs that the products must be made to and are rejected if they do not meet them after inspection and testing. They have american people who are planted at these locations who oversee the quality and workmanship. This goes for 99% of the products bought in the U.S that are made in another country. Being built in the U.S means nothing but supporting americam labor.. Yes, the labor is cheaper outside of the U.S, but that does not mean that the workminship is inferior whatsoever. Other countries have different standards of labor and money does not drive their economy to the degree that it does here in the U.S. On that note, I completely disagree with your statement that because they are made in China ( which there is no evidence of) that they are inferior. The product was designed and engineered in the U.S. The fact that the brembo kit has a 2 piece rotor where the hat is bolted to the rotor is about a .5% perforemance gain due to less weight and rototional mass, nothing more. If you saw the rotora kit in person, you will eat your hat that a company could produse such a quality kit for $ 1000 less. It does not mean that they cut corners, it just means that they have less operating costs and pass that on to customers. In fact, americam products cut corners on their produts by building them here instead of out of the country. The next time you see a Chevy cavailer amd a honda civic on the road, think about how much of a piece of shit the cavalier is and how many important corners they cut such as " SAFETY and RELIABILITY" wehen building their product here and have to charge the same price as the Honda cvic which far exceeds the cavalier in those areas as well as build quality. why is this the case? It's simple. Honda can afford to put more money into research, development and design of their car because pricy, American, inferior labor is not being used to build them like the cavalier is built. That right there is where it counts the most in what a consumer is getting for their money. In fact, i would never buy an american car again in my life because of this cost cutting technique. They fool the americans into thinking they have a better built car beaucse it was made by american workers and propagate the whole american pride crap. I'll take a foreign car anyday which is far superior in just about every aspect for the same price as an american car. In fact, they can;t GIVE american cars away without putting some ridiculous rebate on them to sell them or do something to attract buyers. Did yu ever see a honda , with a rebate? I think not because they sell them like hotcakes and don't need to tout their quality and reliability
09-12-2004, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by caball88
ummm i never said american built cars had better quality. but you are comparing japanese build quality with chinese. there is a difference, if the rotoras were made in japan i would consider them to be pretty decent quality, but they are not they are made in china. would you buy a car that was made in china? i certainly wouldn't just like you wouldn't buy a car that was made in the US(btw the TL is made in the US in ohio).
The same statement I made applies to a car made in another country outside the U.S as opposed to being built in the U.S. I'm not comparing Japanese and Chinese products directly though the same control issues apply in any country. The fact that the TL is ASSEMBLED int he U.S has been seen in the fit and finish of the car and the numerous complaints we all have. That was a bad choice on part of Acura of America to do that because it puts their name in jeopardy. The TL is an amazing and beautiful car for the price but they did cut some corners on the car by building in the U.S
09-12-2004, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
The same statement I made applies to a car made in another country outside the U.S as opposed to being built in the U.S. I'm not comparing Japanese and Chinese products directly though the same control issues apply in any country. The fact that the TL is ASSEMBLED int he U.S has been seen in the fit and finish of the car and the numerous complaints we all have. That was a bad choice on part of Acura of America to do that because it puts their name in jeopardy. The TL is an amazing and beautiful car for the price but they did cut some corners on the car by building in the U.S
09-12-2004, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by caball88
so in turn rotora has cut some corners by making their brakes in china the same way acura has by making the TL in the US. this logic would apply no?
09-12-2004, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by caball88
so in turn rotora has cut some corners by making their brakes in china the same way acura has by making the TL in the US. this logic would apply no?
09-12-2004, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Acura has beileve it or not cut corners on the car by building it in the U.S and in the long term will suffer because of it. Americans do not have the same value or feeling of satisfaction or accomplishment that other countries do because all americans care about is the mighty dollar and how quick they can get home. Do a little reading on how the quality of life and level of satisfaction amongst foreign countries far exceeds ours because they value thisg differently and have pride in their workmanship. They have a different mentality tha U.S workers and that is why U.S corporation are spending millions of dollars to try to change that in their U.S workers. We have always been playing "catch up" with other nations
09-12-2004, 05:14 PM
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No!
Originally Posted by caball88
you have not aswered my question, the rotoras have cut corners by manufacturing the brakes in china? i agree completely with you on the work ethics issue but that is a whole another topic.
09-12-2004, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Dude, get a grip you obvioulsy have NO CLUE what you are talkin about and I will leave it at that.
They are the same quality caliper and rotor as brembo so obviously you should go back to engineering 101 if you think you can tell by merely looking at something. Do you have X-ray vision. Maybe I should send you some cryptonite to STFU already. This issue was closed 4 posts above. Why don't you buy me a set of your " precious brembo"s if you re such a know it all and want to prove me wrong. Until then, stop misleading people and no matter what you say, Rotoras will ALWAYS be on top to me price VS performance
I would appreciate it if you would engage in an adult discussion and refrain from telling me to STFU or telling me I should go back to engineering 101. I earned my Masters degree at Duke University back in 1986 and really don't feel like going back to school after all these years!
You wouldn't behave this way in a face to face conversation and the forum should be no different. I'll try to avoid getting caught up in a pissing contest and stick to a technical discussion, although it's tough when you hurl insults at me. If you really believe the Rotora brakes are better, the Brembo brakes are inferior, and you are an expert int his field, then you shouldn't be afraid to engage in a lively debate on the technical merits. Let's just keep the personal stuff out of it, shall we?
09-12-2004, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DZeckhausen
Somehow I doubt you will "leave it at that!" I didn't use X-ray vision to come to my conclusions about Rotora quality. I looked at the dimensions and the construction. The calipers are lighter and slightly thinner than the Brembo calipers. That's one reason why the Rotora kit clears more wheels than Brembo's Gran Turismo kit. I also know a bit about the foundary in Tiawan (Hung Fu)where the Rotora calipers are manufactured. They supplied raw caliper castings to another brake manufacturer for a couple of years and that company struggled with quality issues, such as voids in the castings, and finally dumped them for a better foundary (Sanyco) with better QA and more modern processes and most importantly QS9000 certification. Rotura (Hung Fu) still uses gravity casting while the new calipers from Brembo and all the calipers from StopTech are squeeze forged, which yields stiffer, more consistant castings with the ability to create finer details and a smoother finish.
I would appreciate it if you would engage in an adult discussion and refrain from telling me to STFU or telling me I should go back to engineering 101. I earned my Masters degree at Duke University back in 1986 and really don't feel like going back to school after all these years!
You wouldn't behave this way in a face to face conversation and the forum should be no different. I'll try to avoid getting caught up in a pissing contest and stick to a technical discussion, although it's tough when you hurl insults at me. If you really believe the Rotora brakes are better, the Brembo brakes are inferior, and you are an expert int his field, then you shouldn't be afraid to engage in a lively debate on the technical merits. Let's just keep the personal stuff out of it, shall we?
I didn't use X-ray vision to come to my conclusions about Rotora quality. I looked at the dimensions and the construction. The calipers are lighter and slightly thinner than the Brembo calipers. That's one reason why the Rotora kit clears more wheels than Brembo's Gran Turismo kit. I also know a bit about the foundary in Tiawan (Hung Fu)where the Rotora calipers are manufactured. They supplied raw caliper castings to another brake manufacturer for a couple of years and that company struggled with quality issues, such as voids in the castings, and finally dumped them for a better foundary (Sanyco) with better QA and more modern processes and most importantly QS9000 certification. Rotura (Hung Fu) still uses gravity casting while the new calipers from Brembo and all the calipers from StopTech are squeeze forged, which yields stiffer, more consistant castings with the ability to create finer details and a smoother finish.I would appreciate it if you would engage in an adult discussion and refrain from telling me to STFU or telling me I should go back to engineering 101. I earned my Masters degree at Duke University back in 1986 and really don't feel like going back to school after all these years!
You wouldn't behave this way in a face to face conversation and the forum should be no different. I'll try to avoid getting caught up in a pissing contest and stick to a technical discussion, although it's tough when you hurl insults at me. If you really believe the Rotora brakes are better, the Brembo brakes are inferior, and you are an expert int his field, then you shouldn't be afraid to engage in a lively debate on the technical merits. Let's just keep the personal stuff out of it, shall we?
09-12-2004, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Thank you for noticing that! Sounds like DZeckhausen is a TROLL who works for Brembo. Look at his join date and posts! Oh and YES, the brakes on our 5at are just great as well, even before I decided to go for the rotora upgrade. They also stopped on a dime!
Sounds like DZeckhausen is a TROLL who works for Brembo. Look at his join date and posts! Oh and YES, the brakes on our 5at are just great as well, even before I decided to go for the rotora upgrade. They also stopped on a dime!The reason I joined the fray here is that one of my customers sent me an email with a link to the thread and suggested you could use my help. I don't have a hidden agenda. I'm not suggesting anyone buy anything from me. I'm just here to correct misinformation and to educate. A Troll is someone who makes outrageous posts or attacks people on the board simply to get them riled up and cause trouble. A Troll does not try to educate people. A Troll is also anonymous. My name is David Zeckhausen and I own Zeckhausen Racing in Maplewood, New Jersey. I am not a Troll.
Now, if you would focus on the points I raise, rather than attacking me personally and attempting to deflect the discussion, everyone here will be far better off. This is not presidential politics. Take a deep breath and relax.
09-12-2004, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DZeckhausen
That' s the first time I've ever been accused of being a TROLL who works for Brembo! LOL!! I'm usually jumping into threads on other boards defending StopTech against unfair attacks by Brembo owners which are full of the same sort of misinformation that New2004AcuraTLman is posting about Rotora vs Brembo. I'm sure Brembo has been pissed at me on more than one occasion.
The reason I joined the fray here is that one of my customers sent me an email with a link to the thread and suggested you could use my help. I don't have a hidden agenda. I'm not suggesting anyone buy anything from me. I'm just here to correct misinformation and to educate. A Troll is someone who makes outrageous posts or attacks people on the board simply to get them riled up and cause trouble. A Troll does not try to educate people. A Troll is also anonymous. My name is David Zeckhausen and I own Zeckhausen Racing in Maplewood, New Jersey. I am not a Troll.
Now, if you would focus on the points I raise, rather than attacking me personally and attempting to deflect the discussion, everyone here will be far better off. This is not presidential politics. Take a deep breath and relax.
The reason I joined the fray here is that one of my customers sent me an email with a link to the thread and suggested you could use my help. I don't have a hidden agenda. I'm not suggesting anyone buy anything from me. I'm just here to correct misinformation and to educate. A Troll is someone who makes outrageous posts or attacks people on the board simply to get them riled up and cause trouble. A Troll does not try to educate people. A Troll is also anonymous. My name is David Zeckhausen and I own Zeckhausen Racing in Maplewood, New Jersey. I am not a Troll.
Now, if you would focus on the points I raise, rather than attacking me personally and attempting to deflect the discussion, everyone here will be far better off. This is not presidential politics. Take a deep breath and relax.
09-12-2004, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
Bravo! Bravo! What a well orchestrated performance! I've seen people graduate from harvard and are as dumb as a box of rocks. It's all about real worls situations not "paper" certifcations. Seems strangely odd to me that your ONLY post on this forum is to proclaim and debate that BREMBO is the king of the universe. Take your soliciting elsewhere. You must be one of these people who have bits searching through the internet to seek otu and find any thing with the word Brembo in it so you can debate with the person with artificail facts that have no substinance or proof just so that you can keep your job at Brembo. NIce try lurker. I have and will be happy to continue to support my feelings rotora and have aboslutely othing to hide or gain by it, unlike some others.
It's clear I'm wasting my time trying to hold an adult discussion with you. You keep posting that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that you know it all. Yet you didn't even think the Rotora kits were manufactured in China. I posted the NAME of the foundry where the calipers are made in Taiwan. If that doesn't convince you I know something about the company, I don't know what will.
You keep claiming that I have something to hide. I have posted my full name, the name of my business, and what I do there. I have never misrepresented myself. The hysteria you have been exhibiting surrounding this "discussion" is simply out of proportion with the topics raised by me and others. I fail to understand why this is a fight rather than a sharing of information.
From now in, I will focus on the technical issues raised in earlier posts and simply ignore your diatribes and name calling. Or at least, I'll try.
09-12-2004, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
More reading on comparing stock to OEM Brembo to a true upgrade BBK
http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm
09-12-2004, 07:36 PM
#73
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I am pretty sure I remember SportCompactCar & the project RX-7 having stoptech brakes on them. The commented on how light and good they were and then came back to say they just kept looking rotors due to cracking at the x-drilled holes. They went to AP brakes and never looked back.
09-12-2004, 08:03 PM
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I am done with this conversation. Anyone who wishes to take my word that the rotora kit will absolutely impress and orders it will be very happy that they did and saved themselves a grand. Anyone who does not, good luck to you and I hope you are happy with what you order. If the extra G doesn't' mean anything to you and you like spending money for no reason other than to support Brembo advertising , the american economy, and your personal feeling that it is more expensive for a reason, then kudos to you. I'd rather take the money and use it for something else more fruitful. Oh and if money is no object and you like inferioe products with quality and reliability issues, then spend 7 grand more a similiarly equipped BWW 330XI and don't complain you were ripped off
09-12-2004, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
I am done with this conversation. Anyone who wishes to take my word that the rotora kit will absolutely impress and orders it will be very happy that they did and saved themselves a grand. Anyone who does not, good luck to you and I hope you are happy with what you order. If the extra G doesn't' mean anything to you and you like spending money for no reason other than to support Brembo advertising , the american economy, and your personal feeling that it is more expensive for a reason, then kudos to you. I'd rather take the money and use it for something else more fruitful. Oh and if money is no object and you like inferioe products with quality and reliability issues, then spend 7 grand more a similiarly equipped BWW 330XI and don't complain you were ripped off
09-12-2004, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by caball88
of course you are done dude you just got owned by a person who appears well educated and is informing you of the differences between products and has backed his claims up with evidence. you on the other hand have just blantantly called him names in a effort to win a debate. the man was trying to have an adult conversation with you and your refusal to accept the facts has put you in this position. and where do you get the idea that he is pedalling his brembos here? its only an assumption you are making. i am happy that you like the rotoras and feel that they are worth the money. but its threads like this that bring about meaningful conversations that shed light on topics that will help out other forum members. there are certainly other members out there that are interested in brake upgrades and to get different comparisons of products by educated individuals is very helpful. i think your attitude towards Zeckhausen is very negative and there is really no need for name calling.
I'm done dealing with an ignoramis who wouldn't see a baseball coming at him until it hit him in the face. He has proclaimed nothing but hearsay and if you are gullible enough to believe unsubstantiated claims and information from this so called "expert" then you my friend are just as much a an ignoramis as him. Do you work for him too? lolGo buy your precious brembos and praise them till your blue in the face and empty in the wallet after they crack. Still won't change my mind. Half the world is made up of idiots who believe anything they see or hear just like a dumb cow, until they get slaughtered because they are too stupid to know better. I'm not calling people names, just pointing out stupid statements made that have no substinance other than pure opinion. Oh and I still don't have those white papers proving me wrong. Have a nice night cause I can't have a conversation with people who think they know it all with no proof of anything. Might as well be talking to a wall! Oh and being well educated has nothing to do with being an expert on any particular field. I'm well educated on flying a plane. Does it make me an expert NO!
09-12-2004, 09:39 PM
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DZeckhausen,
Thank you for joining and contributing some of your knowledge and experience to this thread. I appreciate the posts and have learned from them. I think it is safe to assume that many of the members here have the same sentiments.
Thank you for joining and contributing some of your knowledge and experience to this thread. I appreciate the posts and have learned from them. I think it is safe to assume that many of the members here have the same sentiments.
09-12-2004, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by New2004AcuraTLman
He has No F_kin Idea what he is talking about. Like he pulled that shit out of his ass!. Thats' the most REDICULOUS, idotic and plain old stupid thing I have ever heard . That's just one of the retarded things he said in his post. Another one is about the "floating rotors" Floating rotors means that they float on the hub and can be removed and replaced easily and cheaply. Whatever rotor you buy, it still floats on the car axle the same as it does on my Honda civic and many other japanese and american cars. It has nothing to do with the way a rotor is made whatsoever but rather a design aspect of the car and brakes used today in general. His entire post is a total " political marketing scheme" like he is running for president or something and we all know what all politicians are! Full of $hit. Like I said he is a stupid troll who is probably a competitor and if you are naieve enough to believe him with no substantiated proof yourself, then you are a fool too. Sure, i can make up whatever I want to and say i'm the president of the united states, but until you PROVE what you say, talk is cheap. Money talks and bull$hit walks.
Greg - if you feel I misrepresented your position, please feel free to clarify.
Here's how it really works. All metals expand when heated. The diameter of brake discs can increase as much as 2mm at elevated braking temperatures. When the disc is radially restrained from growing (as in all one-piece discs or solidly bolted 2-piece assemblies) the friction plates are forced into a cone shape as temperature increases, adversely effecting both temperature and pressure distribution within the pads and the feel of the pedal. It also increases stress along the rotors and this, in turn, promotes cracking. Let me stress that these effects are usually not significant under normal street driving, but are noticable during racing, open track events, and driving schools.
StopTech and Brembo discs are mounted on separate aluminum hats. The fastening hardware is designed to allow unconstrained radial growth and minimal axial float resulting in a mechanically stable system.
The series of photos above show the system used by StopTech. Brembo's floating system , shown below, is slightly different and uses anti-rattle springs originally designed for the McLaren.
Brembo floating rotor and hat
McLaren anti-rattle floating hardware used by Brembo
Not all floating systems are designed this way. In Europe, the BMW M5 and M3 come equipped with a floating rotor system that looks like this:
Although the design is totally different than the Brembo or StopTech solutions, the effect on performance is the same. The iron rotor can expand unconstrained when heated. The disadvantage of this mass produced system is that the entire assembly must be replaced when the rotors are worn, whereas the Brembo and StopTech solutions require replacement of the iron friction ring only.
The bottom line is that a brake kit with floating rotors is more expensive to manufacture and has performance benefits that are not present on a brake kit without floating rotors. That is one of the reasons the Rotora kit is available at a lower price point than StopTech and Brembo.
09-12-2004, 11:52 PM
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nice information DZeckhausen, i appreciate the information and comparison between the big brake systems. it is clear that New2004AcuraTLman is sticking to his guns that the rotora is "just as good". i am sure other forum members will find this thread informative when they siff through the unwanted remarks.