Papaman677

OK here's the update on my experience. As I stated before, (thread titled blew my valves) my trans kicked me out of 4th gear when i was shifting from 3rd. I ended up putting it into 2nd instad of 4th and over revved my engine. Went to the dealer said it's not covered under warranty. They wanted $800 to tear down the engine to tell me what was wrong with it. Said screw that took the car back. Called up Acura customer care. They said they would open a case for me. I explained that if the car shifted correctly I would not be in the situation I am in now! They called up the dealer and they stated that I over revved. Acura customer care said they side with the dealer and they're doing nothing. I kept arguing and the guy on the phone sat in silence. I told him that this would be the last acura I purchase. I'm REALLY PISSED OFF!!!! I've been having trouble shifting into 3rd gear since a few thousand miles on my car. The first time they couldn't replicate the problem, the next time they found someting. So back in March I had my 3rd gear syncro and shift fork replaced. Whatever the hell that is? (phys ed teacher not a mechanic) The car was shifting fine and would pop out of 4th now here and there, then it stopped. Now as the weather cooled it started happening in 3rd and 4th gear. (I sure as shit know I'm not the only one with a 6MT who has had trouble with the shifts) I was pulling out from a rest area on the garden state parkway which dumps you into the left lane. I was on the gas, went to shift from 3rd to 4th, grinded poped out and i went to dump it back into 4th and instead it hit 2nd and kablooey. Now, my car is running, I am driving it. My check engine light is on and flashes sometimes. It idles rough but I have no loss of power or noise when driving. YOu can hear ticking from the engine at idle. Anyway, went a little off in a tangent......sorry I'm getting agrivated all over again writing this. I was dead set on selling my 05 and getting the TL-S but screw Acura. I thought this was supposed to be an upscale car company. As much as I like Acura I've been shit on and I"m pissed. ACURA CAN GO SCREW THEMSELVES!!!! Some may read this and say it's your fault. It may be my fault because I was driving, but if my trans shifted properly this would hav never happened. Now my plan is to sell my TL and get something different. I absolutely love my car but I don't think it'll ever run the same. I'm so pissed I really don't want it anymore. Until Acura takes care of their customers better I'm going someplace else. So if anyone has a major problem, beware, Acura is going to try to screw you. Can you tell I'm pissed off??

Papaman677

Oh yeah, I do plan on fixing my car before I sell it, just refuse to take it to the dealer. I'm sure it'll cost me less going to a mechanic

broly

It's user error though man, why are you venting at Acura?

If you sold someone a car and then they did something to wreck the car(key word is THEY) why should you be responsible for fixing something that they didn't do?

Thats why I'm confused as to why you're mad.

stever627

hey, i had the same problem with my car in addition to 3 failed clutches. they covered the bent valves under warranty.

same symptoms...they told me it was ok to drive until I could drop off a week later. engine light on only sometimes (usually not at highway speed) and then it would go off when i slowed or came to stop. eventually it stayed on permanently and then the car stalled and wouldn't start again. turns out that that cylinder 6 along with it's valves, the rod in cylinder 6 and the whole head of that side of the engine (i'm no mechanic either, just what they told me). on top of all of that because it was running poorly, it somehow melted both catalytic converters...either way it was all covered under warranty...then when my clutch went the 3rd time shortly thereafter is when acura really screwed me...

needless to say, i'm driving a beemer 325xi right now and will never buy another honda product bc of the lack of care i was shown by acura corporate

ps...sorry for the poor grammar, i typed this real quick because i am sick of telling my story!!!!

stever627

drtoth - don't try to be dr phil on us

i completely understand why he is mad. if he didn't have the problem with the gears popping out, he wouldn't be in this predicament. there is obviously a problem with some of these transmissions too. it's ridiculous for them to charge as much as they do for a car and then not come through on a known issue.

i loved and miss my TL dearly, but by the looks of this thread, Ac just lost 2 customers for life and the fallout from all the people I told about my horrible experience is much more far reaching than that. acura definitely lost more than just a few sales over just giving me a few grand to cover some problems. poor business decision in my mind. i certainly would have been first in line for a tl-s but will never purchase another out of principle.

pimpin-tl

Ummm, the car can not shift itself into 2nd no matter what. So it is still your fault. Just admit it.

stever627

he admitted fault, that he actually put it in the wrong gear...but if the car was functioning properly he wouldn't have the problem.

i can't think of a time i ever put it in the wrong gear while going sequentially from 1>2>3>4>5>6 but going from N>any gear is not as easy.

pimpin-tl

Right he did admit it. But he can't blame ACURA for causing him to blow the engine because HE put it in the wrong gear.

The car popping out of gear does not cause it to go into a wrong gear. I use to have a Sentra SE-R 1991 Classic that had the known 5th gear pop-out problem. I never mis-shifted that car. I just put it back in 5th.

Now I could say my 99 TA had a bad problem with syncros and it was hard to get it into 4th. But I hit 2nd instead. Yea its Pontiacs fault because of the syncros didn't help me put it into the right gear. lol. NO. It is your fault. Take the blame and pay the dues.

And going from N to 4th is VERY easy. Pull straight down. You actually have to pull to the left and down to hit 2nd. That is not easy.

fast-tl

We're dealing with TWO problems:

1) Car pops out of 4th gear...Acura fault? Possibly.
2) Driver couldn't go to 3rd, so shifted to 2nd , bending valves, instead of neutral or 5th...Acura fault? Impossible.

How could you POSSIBLY be mad at Acura for reason two? There is ZERO cause and effect here. Popping out of 4th was not the cause of the bent valve. Improperly downshifting WAS. Even if your tranny was fine, you could've shifted from 4th to 2nd and screwed the car, so it's false to say if the tranny was "fixed" this never would've happened.

trancemission

I concur...

simont53

Me too

neuronbob

3+

fast-tl

Fast-TL FTW Yay!

subinf

makes sense

fast-tl

WHAT? See that little label on top of the shifter? It reads the same whether you're upshifting or downshifting. If yours doesn't you're driving the wrooooong transmission.

nuresh

my first and last acura

sixsixfour

I can feel your pain. There is nothing more frustrating than having a broken car.

That said, I believe that it isnt Acura's responsibility to fix the engine because of the effect of you mis-shifting a gear and destroying the engine. Maybe the whole shifter popping out of gear may be covered under warranty, but definitely the engine blowing because of the mis-shift isnt a warrantable issue.

Case in point: a friend of mine with an Evo MR did the exact same thing once. He was playing around and revving the life out of his Evo. unfortunately, during a "spirited" drive, he mis-shifted from a high gear at more than 70 mph to 2nd gear.

Thankfully though (and this is where the similarity between his case and yours ends really) he didnt blow the engine, despite his claims that he had seen the tach rev past 9K on the Evo and triggered all sorts of noises and lights.

You see, the way the clutch/pressure plate is designed in the Evo (and Im suprised why Acura hasnt adopted this on their 6MT) makes it snap off each other completely to save the engine from revving with the actual road speed of the tires and transmission. a ring gear of some sort that connects the crankshaft to the xfer case/transmission broke its physical connection, thereby saving the engine from overrevving damage. below are pics that I took with the mechanic at MMC :



picture of gear break-off :



the force sheared off part of the casing of the lower engine assembly:





pic of ring that connects with the clutch:




the mechanics said that, had this been not in place, the engine would have revved the rods through the oil pan and bent all sorts of shiny things inside. amounting to what would have been a catastrophic engine failure, the whole mess would not have been covered under warranty under normal conditions. since the Evo had certain batches that had a shifter-related issue (gear not sliding into the right slot on some cars) the transmission-related damage was fixed under warranty. having connections do pay off since i got my buddy a new clutch which was normally not included under warranty fixes. but had the engine blew (as in your case) it would have been nearly impossible to prove that it should be fixed under warranty because, despite the fact that the gears sometimes do not go to their intended places, it will never shift itself into a lower gear by itself.


good luck.

stever627

First thing I want to say is that I completely agree that if something is your fault, that someone else should not have to pay for it and that you should not be mad when they don't. It would be like me taking my laptop and slamming the lid shut and expecting the manufacturer to replace the shattered LCD under warranty because they didn't have adequate protection for the screen. However, if there is a direct link between a defect with product that causes another part of the product to fail, then by all means the manufacturer should pay for it.

So now we have a couple of arguments here. Yes, I concur with you that the OP bending his valves was a result of his actions. I also agree that it's false logic to say "if the tranny was "fixed" this never would've happened", however, I don't agree that the problem tranny did not increase the likelihood of the misshift occuring. In this particular situation, if the driver wasn't forced to make a quick second attempt to get the car in gear to get out of harm's way, he wouldn't have missed his shift.


We have the following pieces:

A - problem tranny - car pops out of gear
B - misshift
C - proper shift
D - bent valves
E - no problems

In your argument, you assert that A is not equal to D, however B equals D. Yes, you are correct in that A does not directly cause D. The OP's argument is that A resulted in B which then resulted in D. It is a chain of events and he is completely justified in having some sort of anger towards Acura. He brought the car to them for A on more than one occasion and they could not fix the problem correctly.

This is not to say that if the dealer fixed A, then B wouldn't have happened at another time under spirited driving, quick shifting, etc, but in this particular case, had A not existed, B would not have happened, driver would execute C and therefore driver would have E.

I don't exactly remember my logic class from college, but its something along the lines of slippery slope (I think).

IMO the OP certainly has a valid cause/effect argument.

CobraGuy

I'm gonna tell you what...you take this to arbitration and you will win. The tranny has a known history of problems on your car. It popped out of 4th gear...that is NOT normal. In your haste to get it back in gear on a busy freeway, you accidently shoved it in 2nd. That is not Honda's fault...but it is a direct cause of the tranny problem. Honda should step up to the plate and fix this. If not, demand arbitration.

deke

Now thats a cool piece of steel. A fuseable link in that place will save a lot of motors.

stever627

actually this may be the third time he's taken it in for the same thing ----- lemon law!

Legend2TL

Also agree this makes sense.

To the guy who went through 3 clutches, he should read SouthernBoy's writeup on proper manual transmission operation/techniques. Anyone who burns up 3 clutches needs help to learn to shift/clutch properly. I could believe one clutch being defective, but not 3 and the the design is not the issue as many in this forum have pasted by many more miles.

I know a couple folks who will never buy a Honda/Acura again because of 5AT problems in their 2G TL's. However they have a right to be since there was a design/manufacturing issues which resulted in catastrophic failures in the gearbox.

Now in this thread both these owners with the 3 clutches and bent valves was the result of inproper operation resulted in damage to the drivetrain. Kinda like blaming the tree for totally the car after the car left the road.

chill_dog

I read your original thread, and now this one. I have never driven a manual in my life, but there is something I'm wondering...you were in 3rd and it wouldn't let you shift into 4th; why would you attempt to force it? What happens most times when you attempt to force something? It breaks. Seems to me the logical thing to do would've been to keep it in 3rd (the car goes fast enough in 3rd to merge onto and drive on an interstate, although it will be revving high). Once you're moving down the road, try for 4th again...if it still doesn't shift, go straight to the dealer.

Legend2TL

Wow, gotta proof-read my posts before clicking the submit button.

stever627

legend2tl - you are totally wrong here. There was no improper operation on my part. I have owned several sticks shift cars, motorcycles, quads, etc. I know how to drive a manual. And FTR, I have read southern boy's posts about shifting properly. If you want to read through my threads, you will see the whole story.

Clutch 1 was replaced under warranty, because Acura found a defect. Clutch 2 was also replaced under warranty when it was determined that clutch assembly was improperly replaced, thus causing premature wear. Clutch number 3 was blamed on me and I had to pay out of pocket. I am still convinced that there is something wrong with the car. As much as I hate to say it, hopefully, the next guy has some problems too, that way Acura can see it wasn't my fault. Although with my luck, they got it right after replacing it the 3rd time and I sold it after only driving 100 miles on the 3rd clutch. They all happened within the same interval and all 3 failed within 21k miles (previously logged over 175k miles on other clutches with no failures). Right after failure 2, is when my valves bent and were also replaced under warranty. Acura thought it was due to clutch slippage and then catching, thus sending the RPMs through the roof and bending the valve and rod and damaging the head.

So before you start pointing fingers, get the facts straight. If you hadn't noticed, there is a known issue with the tranny on the 3Gs too.

If you read the whole thread, you would see that the OP admitted it was his fault, and that we both agree you can't blame someone for your actions. However, if you follow logically down the cause/effect chain, you'd see the argument, but I guess it's like blaming momma for raisin a fool.

subinf

Sure you can do that 'but-for' chain, but you have to end it somewhere. How likely was it that Acura could have expected this to happen? How many other people with a 3rd gear problem have put it into 2nd instead of 4th and bent their valves? If Acura had reason to know this would happen he has a stronger case. Only using the causal chain to make your conclusion is not looking at the entire picture.

stever627

Yes, you do have to end it somewhere and I think carrying it out just one level isn't taking it too far. I think that the issue is that he tried to have the problem fixed on separate occasions and it wasn't. If he never took it in for service on the popping issue, I wouldn't be taking his side. Acura's failure to repair was a direct cause of the gear popping out AGAIN and thus a direct cause of the OP hastily misshifting when trying to get out of harm's way.

Legend2TL

I do know how MT and clutches work, and have replaced handful of clutches and rebuilt two manual transmission in my lifetime. Can you explain/specify what the defect was on the first clutch? What was done improperly on the second clutch during reassembly?

Also what known issue is there on the 3G TL 6MT?

FWIW, my mother who is not the a good manual driver manages to get 160K miles on her Civic, and I used to drive with her and cringe when I saw her technique. She thought she was good at driving a manual, but I knew otherwise so I thought she'd get 100K miles out of her clutch. So don't take it personally when I saw you need help driving a manual. Three clutches in 20K miles indicates there are problems somewhere.

subinf

Should they have known though. That is the point that makes the difference. If they could have figured that failing to fix the problem would cause people to shift into the wrong gear and blow bend the valves, then they should take care of it. It is probably time for the OP to invoke the arbitration clause and hope for the best.

stever627

the popping is the known issue. Many people have hard parts of the trans replaced in an attempt to fix it and Acura's released a new MT fluid. They may not have formally admitted a known issue, but in the case of the new fluid - "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it".

I was never told what the problem was on the first clutch. It was originally blamed on me around 5k miles (maybe 7k, I forget). I was going to have to pay for that. I was then called later the next day and the service manager stated "We have found a defect in your clutch assembly and we sincerely apologize on behalf of acura". I then picked up the car and went about my way.

The second clutch failure was due to the fact that they only replaced the friction disc (?) the first time. They did not replace the flywheel, which was damaged during the first failure or the throwout bearing. As it was explained to me, the damaged flywheel caused marring and contributed to the second friction disc burning up much sooner. I drove off the lot and within 2 miles I was back on the phone with the service manager as the clutch didn't feel right. They then replaced the slave and master clutch cylinders. The car seemed to drive fine, but after about 7k more highway miles, it just tacked out on the highway and wouldn't accelerate...I pulled over for the tow and the ass raping that ensued...

So yes, I do know how to drive stick and have managed quite a good sum of miles on other vehicles. IIRC Southernboy even agreed that something was defective and said it's damn near impossible for the worse driver to burn up 3 clutches in 21k miles...

And sorry for the momma comment, lol

Papaman677

Okay, some say that it should have been easy to just slip the car back into 4th gear and that I don't know how to drive etc. etc. If anyone is from NJ, I was pulling out of the rest stop on the Garden State Parkway at I think it's exit 98 area. That puts you right into the left lane. Anyone driving on the parkway knows that everyone is far from doing 65MPH. With cars coming up my ass when the gear grinded and jumped out I just wasn't accelerating, obviously because it threw me into neutral. With cars coming up behind me I just tried shifting as fast as I could to get the car into gear, except it was the wrong gear. There was the chance of getting rear ended by a car at highway speeds. Gear popping out causing an accident........Acura's fault if it happened? I don't know. I do know how to drive stick, have driven many cars daily (90 300ZX, 93 Vette both my fathers......I was alot younger then) 99 Integra.

stever627

no they shouldn't have known, but it was the defect in the car that caused the problem.

it would be like me punching someone in the face, and them falling over, hitting their head and dying. I'd be tried for murder (and found guilty) but did I know that me punching said asshole would kill him? No, he indirectly died from my punch

Punch -> fall -> hit head -> die -> murder (my fault)
Gear pop -> misshift -> bent valve -> acura pays

Legend2TL

In terms of the poping out of gear, that is not a Acura gearbox issue but a driver operation. The extreme vast majority of the time when a manual transmission with a synchronizer pops out of gear it was because the gear/ synchornizer was not fully engaged. In simple terms you never pushed or pulled on the gear selector enough. If you have enough load on the gears and are forcing the lever you can bend the shift forks. So this is not a gearbox issue. Using the GM sychromise fluid will make the syncro's engage easier but it is still possibly with any manual gearbox to have it pop out of gear. I've had it happen to me in Toyota's, BMW's, Honda's, and Acura's. My fault shifting lazy and not paying attention, not the gearbox's fault.

I know of one person who has had his 6MT 3G TL gearbox rebuilt, but the reason the dealership guesses is for that the car was abused while it was loaner. Several synchros's and shift forks were replaced, the dealership was high apologetic. Still their fault as they should have inspected the car more thoroughly.

pmptx

If you are revving high a 3>5 is ok also.

Manuals are very forgiving qnd give you 3G folks a lot of options we of the 2G 5AT don't have

bluenoser

Papaman said "I was on the gas, went to shift from 3rd to 4th, grinded poped out and i went to dump it back into 4th and instead it hit 2nd and kablooey."

This is very telling, as this tells me you never had 4th properly engaged. It didn't pop out of 4th, it was never in 4th. The grinding noise you heard was the engagement dogs not engaging. How does that happen? Providing your syncros were ok (if they were bad it would grind every time you engaged 4th) it happens when you don't have the clutch properly disengaged when you're trying to change gears and the gear speeds don't match...pure driver error #1...slamming it into 2nd gear...pure driver error #2. At this point you have Acura errors= 0, driver errors = 2. Result = engine parts touch that weren't designed to.
BTW Acura knows this as does everyone with sufficient mechanical knowkedge.

Papaman677

Actually the shifter grinded and jumped out of gear when I released the clutch (I should have explained that in previous posts.) as it has happened before in the past. This is why I have had my car in before for this problem. My clutch was fully engaged. I was having a problem where when I was shifting it would go into gear and then if I didn't push the shifter in more it woulld jump out. You had to force it in to where it almost felt like it clicked in or notched in. Sometimes it would happen sometimes it would not.

subinf

You are looking at two different things. Using your murder example, for whatever that is worth, you caused everything with no superceeding action of the victim.

In the case of the misshift, the driver caused the bent valves, not Acura. There is a difference.

Acura can foresee that problems with the transmission might arise - stuck gears, grinding, eventual transmission failure. They should be responsible for that. I dont think they can reasonably foresee that someone will incorrectly shift due to their gear problem and bend their valves.

Legend2TL

FWIW, I've never replaced a flywheel or had it resurfaced when I've replaced 5 clutches. All of those clutches had worn down to the point of slipping due to wear. Typically I clean off the flywheel with brake cleaner and inspect it for unacceptable wear. I do recall the clutch lining rivets had started to grind into the flywheel one one flywheel but not to the point where it had to be replaced.

I have replaced pressure plates but typically the majority of the time flywheels are NOT replaced for clutch replacement. Unless there was extreme gouging in the flywheel there is not reason to replace it. So I'm not sure what amount of damage had been done to the flywheel, because any flywheel damage is very visible when the clutch disk is removed.

On going through 3 clutches in 21K miles, knowing how a clutch works and what can ruin it I could very easily destroy 3 clutches in that amount of miles.

bluenoser

Again, if there was a grinding noise you weren't 4th gear. The grinding comes from the engagement dogs spinning at a different speed than the engagement slots in the gear you're trying to mesh with. This also coincides with a harsh kick back in the shift lever. If you had engaged 4th gear it popped out you don't get grinding, because the gears were already spinning the same speed. What you get sounds like a bang, if the gear is under load.

My best guess is you released the clutch as the dogs were engaging, meaning you hadn't completed the shift into 4th. The grindinding and resulting kick back put it in neutral, the rest is history.

stever627

yes, you could ruin a clutch intentionally. i'm sure i could too. but this was normal driving, no burnouts, no clutch dumping, no double clutching, nothing fancy schmancy and no showing off. under normal driving conditions (which my conditions were) it's not possible to burn a clutch out that quickly. something else is wrong with that vehicle...