Article that will be of interest to many
08-24-2006, 04:18 PM
#81
Originally Posted by mr.motoring
Tire pressure monitoring all came about because of the fiasco surrounding the tread separation on Firestone tires equipped on the mid nineties Ford Explorers. Because those particular tires were not tolerant of even slightly below spec air pressure levels when compared to other tires, the tires overheated and the tread separated.
Even though these isolated incidents were blamed on just Firestone as a manufacturer defect, enough ignorant critics and scared car owners caused so much of an uproar over safety concerns that now, not only do you find TPMS standard on just about every truck and SUV, but even cars.
I would assume that had Firestone never released that particular faulty model tire (Wilderness AT ?), the general public would not even know what tire tread separation is, and TPMS would not be so prevalent as it is today. On the cars that would have it, instead of it being currently marketed as a 'safety' feature, it would have probably been on the window sticker under the category 'convenience ammenities'.
But we all know how popular those Explorers were, and a lot of those vehicles meant a lot of problems and a lot of publicity. Now those drivers aren't to blame, Firestone (and even Ford) took the heat. But these days, your tire would have to be obscenely low on air to cause it to fail. And I mean easily spottable visually with a casual glance. Read the owner's manual. It states before each and every drive, the driver should check the fluids, adjust the mirrors, and check the tires. Granted, no one ever does this every day. However, one should not rely solely on electronics for a diagnosis.
Even though these isolated incidents were blamed on just Firestone as a manufacturer defect, enough ignorant critics and scared car owners caused so much of an uproar over safety concerns that now, not only do you find TPMS standard on just about every truck and SUV, but even cars.
I would assume that had Firestone never released that particular faulty model tire (Wilderness AT ?), the general public would not even know what tire tread separation is, and TPMS would not be so prevalent as it is today. On the cars that would have it, instead of it being currently marketed as a 'safety' feature, it would have probably been on the window sticker under the category 'convenience ammenities'.
But we all know how popular those Explorers were, and a lot of those vehicles meant a lot of problems and a lot of publicity. Now those drivers aren't to blame, Firestone (and even Ford) took the heat. But these days, your tire would have to be obscenely low on air to cause it to fail. And I mean easily spottable visually with a casual glance. Read the owner's manual. It states before each and every drive, the driver should check the fluids, adjust the mirrors, and check the tires. Granted, no one ever does this every day. However, one should not rely solely on electronics for a diagnosis.
08-24-2006, 04:54 PM
#82
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Man, where do we draw the line?
Following your logic, nothing is safe and we need others to look after us to make sure we stay safe in all aspects of life. At one point, we would hand over the power to govern ourselves to another entity (such as the government, hence the name) who will then have complete control over what we do and what we think.
Coincidentally, I happened to watch V for Vendetta earlier today. Have you seen it yet?
To refute your specific example, why stop at tire pressure monitoring? Why don't we limit the speed in our cars to the exact speed limit on that road? What about other things that can go wrong? Tire pressure isn't the only thing that could go wrong and cause a car to wreck. How about wheel studs? Brakes? Suspension? Axles? Potholes? Animals? Should we put sensors on all of these things? And should the government be able to monitor you via these sensors? If you answered yes, then why? Humans for the last 100 years have done fine with automobiles without the technology we have today. We're doing fine now without the technology we'll have in another 100 years. Ultimately, the safety of the car depends on the skills of the driver, which is what we should be focusing on.
We're trying to patch up the consequences of the problems, when we should be working on the cause of the problems -- the driver. A properly-taught driver would know to perform regular maintenance on the vehicle, and how to control a car. Virtually all of the technology today is just a mere replacement for the lack of skills and knowledge of a driver. Vehicle Stability Assist, Traction Control, Tire Pressure Monitoring System, etc, etc. -- a good driver would not need these things.
Following your logic, nothing is safe and we need others to look after us to make sure we stay safe in all aspects of life. At one point, we would hand over the power to govern ourselves to another entity (such as the government, hence the name) who will then have complete control over what we do and what we think.
Coincidentally, I happened to watch V for Vendetta earlier today. Have you seen it yet?
To refute your specific example, why stop at tire pressure monitoring? Why don't we limit the speed in our cars to the exact speed limit on that road? What about other things that can go wrong? Tire pressure isn't the only thing that could go wrong and cause a car to wreck. How about wheel studs? Brakes? Suspension? Axles? Potholes? Animals? Should we put sensors on all of these things? And should the government be able to monitor you via these sensors? If you answered yes, then why? Humans for the last 100 years have done fine with automobiles without the technology we have today. We're doing fine now without the technology we'll have in another 100 years. Ultimately, the safety of the car depends on the skills of the driver, which is what we should be focusing on.
We're trying to patch up the consequences of the problems, when we should be working on the cause of the problems -- the driver. A properly-taught driver would know to perform regular maintenance on the vehicle, and how to control a car. Virtually all of the technology today is just a mere replacement for the lack of skills and knowledge of a driver. Vehicle Stability Assist, Traction Control, Tire Pressure Monitoring System, etc, etc. -- a good driver would not need these things.
100 years of technical evolution in the automotive industry... that is completely unwarranted? Umm, no. Do you buckle your seatbelt ONLY because it's the law now, or do you do it becasue you hope to live when the streetracers clip you on the highway?
and humans are not machines. Driver skill, regardless of training, will vary based on all those human factors I noted earlier. Reflexes, perception, ability to apply training, etc are all factors. Overlay factors beyond human control like weather and unpredictable road conditions and no two drivers will handle a driving challenge the same way.... Not only that, drivers upgrade thier cars every couple of years, so there's little chance to "become 1" with the car... and I'm taking suggestions on who will pay for my and everyone elses tactical driver training that you insist everyone should have.
I will concede, europeans have much more stringent driving requirements/testing to get licensed, and higher speed limits and such. They also have thier fair share accidents, and remember, they're DoT is MUCH more restrictive on what is allowed to be on the road, and thier culture is to drive as technically advanced a car as possible. The Germands invented ABS and ESP 9electronic stability control) according to Dr. Z.
And why not stop there, let the governemtn control it all? Umm... many have. It's called public transportation. Get on the train baby. Perhaps a quick study of future of commuting will look like is in order. Since you like to to quote movies... Perhaps you should watch Minority Report again.
Those cars operated on magentic tracks through automation, kinda like a big conveyer, i.e no drive feedback.
Nerds who study traffic are convinced they can all but eliminate traffic if it's automated in this mannerby eliminating the human factors I discussed above. No granny's slamming on brakes or driving to slow, or teenagers street racing/wrecking and causing backups.
This has been an interesting arguement, but all discussion seem to culminate in the following:
- EDR data is about as private as walking down the street. Vehicle technology evolution and the use of vehicle metric data will not result in government controlling my mind. It will result in safer vehicles that will continue to possibly evolve into a giant mass transit system that's governed by a set of "laws". Driving won't be fun anymore, but commuting will be safe, effecient, and well, boring... and won't require anyone to be "highly skilled drivers" . Again, mankind will have sacrificed the privacy and freedoms of the modern automobile in order to facilitate the modern convenience of reading/working/screwing while commuting... all of which is a far cry from the big government doing, whatever civil liberties wierdos are worried about them doing.
08-24-2006, 05:37 PM
#83
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
And the best part it of all is that the same tire, Wilderness AT, was OEM on several other vehicle of different brands and models. The Ford Explorer was the only model that popped tires and rolled over. To me, the Firestone fiasco was not a tire-related issue, but something inherently wrong with the suspension design of the Ford Explorer.
As for the TPMS debate...... The reason it is now mandatory (or soon will be for all cars) isn't solely due to "stupid/lazy people", though that is an unavoidable variable.. It became mandatory due to the fact it has proven to save lives, or it's presence "should" help prevent loss of life/injury by identifying the cause - a low tire etc..
Big picture..... - Just because someone isn't/doesn't monitor their tire pressure daily doesn't imply their stupid, nor would their "monitoring" identify-prevent EVERY "variable" that would cause a low or deflating tire and resulting accident..
EDR's..... The fact that the device is on the car and "that" type of data is available etc.. isn't the real issue.. What most worry about, me included, would be the who, what, when, and how the data is used. That is the legislature we all need to be cognizant and then passionate about..
I can only hope that the individual who ignores their TPMS warning resulting in a fatal crash involving others is prosecuted to the max extent of the law due to data provided by their vehicles EDR......
08-24-2006, 06:04 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Most of those systems wouldn't be necessary if the driver knew how to properly control a vehicle. Who pays for the unnecessary technology? 
I welcome all of these technologies and gladly pay for them in my vehicles... even tire pressure monitors
08-25-2006, 10:10 AM
#85
Racer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Adamo0926
SpecialFX....I like how you present your case....clear and concise. You state a very good case.
The point is there is really not a right or wrong here. There are valid points on both sides. It irrelevant because the EDRs are there already. But still interesting.
Arguing against safety devices seams counterproductive. As advances are made that could help keep drivers safer why would one not want them to be available? There are some features our cars have that others do not, and vice versa. Macufacturers choose what they build into their cars and we are free to choose what car to buy. The system works great. My car is an '04 and does not have TPMS. I don't know how well it works. I'd probably still check my tires manually. TPMS would be a backup. Some people never check their tires. More than once I've seen cars go down the road missing a tire, sparks flying everywhere!!
Pure adrenaline, you seem to be a bit angry sometimes. I hope that's not the case. This discussion isn't personal, it's philosophical. As for some of the points you bring up:
No, I absolutely do not think we should hand over all control to the govenment. I'm not even sure where that came from.
No, I haven't seen "V for Vendetta" yet, but I plan to.
Driver training in this country is pathetic. Most people have no idea how to handle a car. They turn 16, they're handed a set of keys and off they go. My wife and kids need to be protected from them.
Obviously it is not practical to have sensors for every part that can fail. At the same time there are things that can be monitored easily ansd cheaply and add a level of safety for the users. When cars went 25 mph it wasn't a big deal. Now you have 500hp cars capable of nearly 200mph with the top down. It's a totally different world from 100 years ago.
Welfare?! Where the heck did that come from? But for the record anyone who cannot work for physical or mental reasons needs to be taken care of. Those that are just lazy do not.
Sorry if this is hard to follow. I was too lazy to keep going back to quote other posts.
But we're far away from the starting point of this thread.
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