I wonder if there really is much difference in "loss" from an automatic. My tranny is more like a transfer case than it is a transmission in a V8. Have you seen how big a v8 transmission is compared to these front wheel drive 6 bangers? Oh my. haha So i'm not really buying the loss theory.. I'd like to race someone and see. haha

 

In terms of 6MT vs. 5AT for the TL specifically, when it comes down to a flat out race the 6MT will win every time, everything else equal.

No need to race, it has already been proven.

Try getting a 5AT Base TL down to 5.7s 0-60. That's what motortrend did with the A-Spec 6MT BASE TL. A TL-S 5AT might be able to get in that range. 6MT TL-S beats the Base 6MT by a few tenths of a second.

Eventually, if given a long enough road, the 5AT will beat the 6MT due to the longer 5th gear.

 

If you dyno an AT and MT TL side by side, the MT will pull higher horsepower numbers by definition because it has fewer moving pieces. The automatic generates more friction and thus loss of power. Of course they have the same horsepower at the crank (258) because they are identical engines, intakes, heads, cams, etc. The automatic will lose a solid 20 whp to the manual on a dyno though every time for the aforementioned reason.

This has been dyno'd and proven so many times on this forum.

It's not a question of how fast the car can shift. The automatic trans cars of today that you are thinking of that can shift faster than a human could do in a manual are pretty much all going to be dual-clutch autos. The 3g TL auto is a slushbox and is not a performance auto trans. From a roll you will always get downshift delay, and even if you sport-mode shift it, it'll be sloppy. The stall converter is always going to hinder that car. I've owned and driven both and it is night and day difference. Not even close.

Gearing also plays a huge part in it. The manual TL is close-ratio and the AT has a much higher spread with only 5 gears. As a result, 4th gear pulls wayyyy harder on a MT than in an AT, however, as noted given a long enough stretch of road, the AT would theoretically have a higher top speed.

 

no sir! love it!!!

 

Well, my auto will break the tires free at a stand still.. so, off the line, I dont see an advantage and I can do a powerstall if I want to get a little rev going as well. Haha and you have to watch those definitions because real world isn't also such a clear cut defined theory. Anywho, opinions. Would still be fun to race if there was a legal place. And I also don't really trust other peoples cars to be like mine on a dyno. The difference between and auto and a manual in the same type car is going to be close. Like as close as my car running better than someone else's TL. So how your car runs and how big your speaker box matters a lot when you are talking about a FRAcTION of a sec over a hard quarter mile.

I'll take the AUTO in a TL.

 

One more thing then ilk.unsubscribing cuz I don't want emails all day. My biggest complaint may seem petty, but because not being free while driving and having to fiddle with shifting, there is a HUGE delay on having to get on it immediately and getting a response. Driving in traffic or getting my break or some asshole that wants to pass you and is already got some momentum on you, you can't do anything except say WAIT I wasn't ReADY!. I have to press in the clutch lever, then move this shifter handle, then release the clutch before I'm ready to go. And by that time the emergency already came and went! So slow response in traffic and can't race quickly unless your staged in 2nd gear and driving 50. Then you're ready. Manual = handicap.

 

^This is all anybody needs to understand about the 5AT vs 6MT. Here is a comparison in graph form. Notice the 6MT's (blue) 5th gear is shorter than the 5ATs' (red) 4th gear. Gearing is DIRECTLY related to the rate of acceleration (G's)...provided your tires & clutch aren't slipping. You can bet passengers don't take notice or even care how long a shift takes. All they feel is the lateral acceleration of the seat mashing them forward.

http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...ission+1+%26+2

BTW Chad: If your not ready to jam on it when the time comes, that's your own fail for not paying close enough attention to what's going on around you.

 

The bottom line @ full throttle & no tire slip:

12% greater acceleration in 1st
19% greater acceleration in 2nd
25% greater acceleration in 3rd
39% greater acceleration in 4th
9% greater acceleration in 5th (vs AT's 4th)
67% greater acceleration in 5th
19% greater acceleration in 6th (vs AT's 5th)

And this doesn't even take into account the mild power loss from being an automatic.

 

IDK why you would regret getting the 6 speed. I searched for months for a decent 6 speed TL.

I don't mind automatics, especially the newer ones with manual shifting, I just prefer manuals.

When I'm driving a manual I feel like I'm really driving the car. When I drive an automatic I feel like the car is driving me.

Plus, in a manual I tend to stay focused and concentrate a lot more on driving, whereas in an automatic, in an automatic it's way easier to sort of tune out and get distracted.

 

lol chad thinks his auto is as fast as the 6mt.
i will pull bus lengths on you, sir.

 

I think Chad should get one of those self-driving google cars when they come out. Then he can do all the multi-tasking he wants.

 

my favorite part is about how the manual has a bigger delay when maneuvering in traffic because it requires you to push in the clutch and move the shifter.

Nevermind the fact that if you mash the gas pedal in the 5AT it will lag for 2 seconds before dropping to a low enough gear that will actually give you power to accelerate, IF it even drops a gear at all.

I used to get so pissed at my 5AT when I'd mash the pedal and I would watch the car desperately try to make power at 2700 rpms because it was too stupid to drop a gear.

 

Learn to drive a manual well and all the "issues" you mentioned will no longer be a problem. It's very likely that you'll actually drive better with a manual, since it forces you to be more coordinated, concentrate more and it doesn't allow you to fiddle with stuff while driving.

 

I always lose off the line cause i don't like banging it but soon as clutch is engaged im gone. vroom vroom bitches

 

case in point.
this happened to me last weekend


Torn tranny mount....

 

Ew that's gruesome. Is it from hard launches?

 

Heres the story:
my insurance is bullshit.
if you gentlemen recall, i ran into a curb. insurance bullshitting around for 4 months. I finally got it to a shop i trust. my friend who worked on it said "the first shop found a mount that was worn but didnt replace it, because it wasnt due to the accident"

Yes, to answer your question...having it already torn and my repeated hard launches, it ripped fully on Sunday of last week.

I'M NOT GOING THROUGH INSURANCE, and just fixing this out of pocket.
I bought the lower transmission mount and is currently being shipped.

as of now, the car is on jack stands.
When it happened on Sunday, I thought it was the LSD.
with that torn mount, the tranny MOVES and shifts its weight considerably causing the car to FEEL VERY WEIRD.

I did jack up the car to test the LSD.
spun one wheel one way, while the other wheel spun the opposite direction.
this test confirmed that my LSD is working correctly.

 

damn, justn...

 

I love my 6MT and am glad I bought it. However, it is funny. I have owned a lot of manual cars through the years, including an old Chevy truck with 3 on the tree. My last car was a Saab 9-5 with 5MT. The car magazines all said the Saab linkage was very rubbery, but I thought it was just fine, and loved driving it. The car mags also all say the Acura gearbox is one of the best out there, but I find the clutch is a little difficult to get used to, and the shifting is a little notchy. It may just need to be broken in. As far as the clutch, the engagement point is kind of high, which is weird for me as I drove a Saab with a very low engagement point for years. The hill brake feature is great, but I am not used to it yet, and don't rely on it, so I kind of rush my foot to the gas pedal on hills, even though it isn't necessary.

 

unless you're talking about the 4G (i dont know much about them) there is no hill holding feature in the 3G.

 

94eg!, Justn, and others already explained this but the 6MT will pull on the 5AT. Aside from the dynos and drivetrain loss, the 5AT is also at a weight disadvantage to the 6MT.

If that's still not enough, then check out this thread/clips of a stock 6MT squaring off with an almost fully bolted + tuned 5AT

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/07-tl-s-5at-modded-vs-stock-07-tl-s-6mt-847204/

/


Edit: Sorry about the mount, Justin. Time to switch insurance companies maybe??

 

I never regret my 6spd. However somedays I can get perfect smooth shifts and other days i am a little jerky. It gets frustrating sometimes when I have passengers because I see there heads jerking a little. I wish it was a little more smooth but I still really enjoy it.

 

I run full Redline type-F in my type-s and heads be jerkin all over the place, even on smooth acceleration.

 

lool thats also my pet peeve, seeing peoples' heads bob between shifts.

i've asked them about it and they honestly have no idea they're doing it. It's all in your head, no pun intended.

 

Um, no.

 

Lol, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. Whenever people ride with me they look like this when I shift:

 

The gen3 TL manual is quicker AND faster than is the gen3 automatic. Lots of reasons for this, but the primary reasons are fall into two categories.

The final drive ratios for each gear in the manual are lower than are those of the automatic in gears 1 through 5. This equates to greater torque multiplication with the manual than the automatic.

A manual transmission, once the clutch is fully engaged, locks the engine's crankshaft to the drive wheels 100% of the time. The gen3 automatic cannot do this. Drive an automatic along a level stretch of road at, say, 40 MPH. Now tip into the throttle a bit and you'll notice engine speed suddenly increases. This is slippage purposely designed to take place. This cannot happen with a manual.

Lastly, the word fast. Many folks confuse this word with "quick" but they are not the same since they convey two completely different concepts. Quick relates to acceleration where fast relates to speed. The manual wins in both cases.

As I said, I have one of each and I can tell you that my '04 manual is noticeably quicker than my '05 automatic. Not only that but with a locked drive train, throttle response is significantly better.

 

You've actually got this backwards. The higher the number, the shorter the gear. At 3.285, The 6MT has a WAY longer final drive than the 5AT at 4.428. Therefore we can deduce the final drive has nothing to do with it. It's the insanely short driving gear ratios of the 6MT that make quicker in each gear.

If you stuck the 5AT's 4.4 final drive into the 6MT, you would have a gear box with a top-speed of 155mph, instead of 209mph.

I already explained the exact torque percentages per gear a few posts back.

 

No I didn't get it backwards. Believe me, I am fully aware that a 4.428 "rear end" (differential gear in FWD vehicles) is lower than a 3.285. But you'll note that I didn't say "rear end" or differential gear. I said final drive ratios which means the gear ratios times the differential gear. Here are these ratios for those interested (all rounded to nearest one-hundredth);

1st gear: 12.93 for manual, 11.34 for auto
2nd gear: 8.16 for manual, 6.87 for auto
3rd gear: 5.59 for manual, 4.52 for auto
4th gear: 4.11 for manual, 2.97 for auto
5th gear: 3.22 for manual, 2.13 for auto

As you can see, the manual has shorter gears from one to five than the automatic.

 

I understand your dilemma, I drove both and finnaly I was like ok wait I'm getting a luxury car why would I want to bother shifting gears and shit so I opted for the automatic, way more practical

 

I regret NOTHING!!

Although I would say it would be nice to not have to deal with 3rd gear pop and grind without having to do the juice or take it in for service, but its a good trade off to settle on if I had to choose between that and an automatic. If my 6speed were an automatic, I'd feel like I'm driving a Camry or something boring.

 

The term "final drive" only refers to the gear ratio of the ring & pinion driving the diff (exact same term as "rear end"). In this case it's 4.428 (AT) or 3.285 (MT).

 

I've owned all manual transmission cars:
-86 hyundai excel
-90 honda accord
-95 integra
-04 TL

I think the TL clutch is fairly easy to learn out of all four. I think it shifts smoother than these as well as a shorter throw. Compared to other psuedo sports lux sedans I have no point of reference.

G35 clutches are harder...engagement is harder as well..tight feeling
350z clutches are the generally the same as g35s..tight feeling
neon srt4 clutches and engagement were easier... sorta loose..not so firm
scion xB...feels like driving a bus...smooth..easy..little feedback
Jetta 1.8T&wolfsberg...fairly smooth overall..easy to get used to..great feedback

Others on the board that have driven 3series BMWs, is300s, audi passats, or similar can chime in on a comparison.

I never regret having a 6speed. I just wish my other had one more gear to shift into.


If you want it to be more of a family car that everyone can use swapping is the best answer.

 

That is true. However I said "final drive ratios" not final drive ratio. The plural of the word ratio implies different ratios which can only be obtained by changing gears. The final drive is a fixed ratio as you pointed out and if used in that context, you're absolutely correct.

Come on... you have to know that I know what I'm talking about with this.

 

I'm in the same boat, I'm slow off the line till I get full engagement.

 

^you guys need to practice shifting more properly. you must learn to become one with the car lol.......they have feelings you know

 

I have a 5AT so I may be a little bit out of place here.....but doesn't engagement already get hindered by the slave cylinder valve? I thought the purpose of the valve was for just that - to make for a smoother engagement/shift by slowing it down.

 

^correct

what will help if you havent removed the SCV is short shifter, ss clutch line, and new bushings

the only problem i have is that my clutch slips right at 6k (well its more of a hit or miss........mostly miss -_-)

do i regret it hell no.........i want to be in charge of my car not the other way around

if you dont like then go with auto because its all about preference and what type of driving style one has on a daily bases

 

I will admit it, I do need to get better with this clutch.
It's my first MT car, so I'm learning. I've driven MT here and there, but not on a daily basis till now.

 

Oh yeah... I forgot who was who for a minute.