Toasterthedog

Hey all. I just picked up my NBP/Ebony 6MT w/ Navi last night, needless to say there is still a huge smile on my face.

I actually woke up this morning around 5:30 am just to log around 60 miles or so w/o any traffic.

My question: I have driven plenty of MT cars, but I am having a little trouble getting used to shifting this bad boy. 1st gear is extremley short and I seem to jerk into 2nd gear. All the gears from about 3 to 6 are perfect, but 1 to 2 and 2 to 3, seem to be tuff to figure out. I'm not trying to accelerate hard ATM ( only 70 miles ) and want to break in somewhat before I get nutty. Is there any special tricks? the clutch just seems somewhat spongy. I know I will adjust with time, but I havent driven a manual in almost 5 years, and this car is much quiter than pervious ride. Can hardly hear the RPMS

Sorry to ramble..might be tuff to explain, but like I said any tricks to make the take off smoother would help. TIA

Adobeman

Same basic thing with me. I've driven MT cars for over 20 years and I find 1 to 2 and a bit less so 2 to 3 being a bit tougher to get smooth. Read this this post and you may get some insight if you are trying to shift quickly. I think it is what I am still trying to adjust to. You'll see what I describe (post#9) as the "bungee" feeling.

I find that slowing down my shifts has helped. Also, I find with first either get out of it right away once the car is rolling or wait until you top it out. The middle is sort of a no mans land.

I think your "spongy" is my "bungee" (oh man that's bad )

Legend2TL

Southernboy wrote excellent thread on smooth shifting, it's worth readin and may help you with the TL 6MT shifting.

6MT shifting thread

I have been driving shift cars for 25+ years and the clutch in the TL is definitely the most difficult to get used to. I'm up to 6K miles and I've gotten better at getting smoother shifts but it's still not as good as I can do in other MT Honda/Acura's.

ZQQM

Yes, it does take a little time to get used to it. Also, I think everything "settles in" a little ( clutch,fly wheel, T/O bearing, linkage, etc....) once you get some miles on the car.

The gearbox is very enjoyable once you get the technique down.

I have noticed lately in stop and go traffic with the a/c on that its hard to keep it smooth, u know the traffic, 1st/2nd/stop/1st/stop/1/2/stop and repeat for 20 minutes.... With the a/c off the car is very flexible and not hard to drive smoothly in stop and go traffic.

Ga_Tech_TL

haha yeah i had the same problem. it was worse for me bc the TL is my first manual car. I thought it was all just practice. Well, in time u will get used to it. U just gotta know how much or when to release the clutch.

Toasterthedog

Thanks 4 the replies, I'm glad it's not just me...LOL. My friends were ribbin me a bit.

Anyhow, it's slowly getting better as I get used to the feel. Man, I really love this car though.

BTW, I had said 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd...I meant to say difficulty w/ N to 1 and 1 to 2, after that it's butter. But it really is just developing a feel for the tranny, etc.

Thanks again.

Yakuza70

Hey Toasterdog, we have the same NBP/ebony 6MT! This is my third manual car ('91 Toyota Corolla, '02 Nissan Maxima) and it does take time to get used to. Give it time and just go out and practice. I stalled my new TL twice the first day when I drove it from a start (N-1st). The clutch engagement was the toughest to get used to but boy is the shifter a thing of beauty, especially compared to my '02 Maxima's very poor shifter.

ndx2

Your left leg must be getting a quite a workout everday in the Chicago traffic (especially in & around downtown)!

I, too, have noticed that it takes more work to shift smoothly with the A/C on. I was in Denver last week and the combination of the A/C working hard (110~ degrees) and constant uphill/downhill took the fun out of driving an MT here and there.

JetJock

I've had several MT cars in the past and I've also had trouble shifting this car smoothly. I purchased my car ("04Anthracite TL 6mt) last April, and I'm just now getting smooth with shifting. It's tough, but the car is so excellent otherwise I still love it. I can't give you any tips, just keep driving and eventually you'll get it right. Good luck and enjoy your TL...it's one AWESOME car that I wouldn't trade on anything else under $50K.

SouthernBoy

To Toasterthedog et al;

The problem with the clutch assembly in the TL is.. there really is no problem at all. What it is.. is a combination of things which taken together, require the driver to operate this car a bit differently than those in the past he may have driven.

The clutch pedal has a relatively short travel to it, with the clutch take-up (the point at which clutch engagement first begins to its full engagement) even shorter. This coupled with the fact that most of the manual (3GL) TL's I've experienced have their pedals adjusted to start engagement within the first 1 1/2 inches of travel (off of the floor). Now throw in a quite engine where sounds can and do definitely help the driver shift, and you have the startoff and the 1-2 shift causing some heartache in the early stages of ownership.

Shorter clutch travel with short take-ups are actually favored for serious driving. This is what you want when doing the toe-and-heel, or when having to do some serious and quick shifting.

My suggestion is to use your tach when first getting used to the car and then wean yourself off of its use in normal driving conditions. With me, I drive my Ford Ranger pickup to work most days of the week and then when I get in the TL, I have to pay attention because these two vehicles are like night and day in their shifting differences.

Good luck. You'll soon come to love your TL and be so glad you bought the manual.

s2ktaxi

I've had over 15 manual transmission'ed Hondas and Acuras over the last 17 years and the TL is probably the hardest to shift smoothly using the same technique as other Hondas. The only other Acura that comes close is the pre-97 NSX that also had a dual disc clutch.
The trick is to be more sensitive to the clutch pedal and let it out more slowly. giving it a bit more gas also helps.

GoBig

Switch out your tranny fluid to GM Syncromesh (Friction Modified). I did and my car shifts much more smoothly then before.

JackSprat01

The factory fill is like Vasoline and GMS FM is like KY LIQUID!

SouthernBoy

Hey JackSprat01;

I've had three quarts of GM-SFM sitting in my garage for over a month. I just can't seem to find the time to do the job (working weekends too much on this project from Hell).

Think I'm putting my tranny in any danger at 15500 miles with the original factory fill?

Hugh9269

I have had the same smoothness issues as well, quite different than my RSX Type S and most other manuals that I have owned. Gets better with miles and practice. nice links as well!

JackSprat01

yes! At 3k mine had so much metal in it that it looked like brass mercury. Road Rage helped me change mine out (OK, he basically did the whole damn thing while I passed him tools) and even he was amazed at the amount of metal in it. Yours should be metal sludge by now, but then some people leave shit in there like that for 200k. You'll be fine, just get it out ASAP. I REALLY wish I took a pic of that fluid, but didn't have my camera. Take a pic of your fluid when you change out yours so I can compare if you don't mind.

Check out this thread for a refresher. Not only that, the sweet slickness of that GMSFM will make even that N VA traffic a little easier!

Papaman677

Just give it time. For the first few weeks of having my 6MT i was shifting like someone just learning to drive stick. I went from a 99 Integra LS to the TL and it took me a while to get use to it. I'm okay with it now, sometimes when I'm tired or not paying attention I'll have a few bad shifts. I still shift like garbage with the A/C on. It kills the power on the car and drops the RPM's faster then with it off so I end up shifting like shit........or at least that's what I think

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

OH CRAP! I've been driving for 25k miles almost with that shit in my tranny!! I hope no real damage is done!!

JackSprat01

Yo Luda, get that shit outta there. The damage would be incremental, not all at once...like rain washing out a gravel driveway. It doesn't happen overnight, but years later, it's history. Imagine using the same bucket of water to wash your car every day and never rinsing. The water just gets dirtier and dirtier and thus more harmful.

willz822

This is why I changed mine out at my second oil change. 7000 miles so far and the shifting is buttery smooth.

HEK

move the seat as far back as you can and try shifting (of course not during driving)..and it worked for me...smooth as medicated cotton...

ChuckDu

I too swapped out the tranny fluid with the GM Synchromesh FM fluid (at 5,000 miles) and love the shifting action now. (As an obscure cycling analogy, it was like changing from Shimano to Campagnolo shifters.)

However, as expected, the clutch engagement was not affected by the change in tranny fluid. The TL clutch engagement is rather abrupt and takes time to get used to at first. It also takes a bit of concentration to compensate when changing between different manual transmission cars... the difference between the clutches on my CRV and TL is like night and day.

Xpditor

My daily driver is a 5MT Jeep Wrangler. So... I'm used to a rock-crusher MT.

When I test drove the 6MT TL, I noticed the quick engagement but adjusted to it w/i a few blocks.

However.... the tranny made a small grinding feel (more than noise) on every 1-2 shift. The salesman said that something must be wrong with it.

In any event, I had been undecided between 6MT and 5AT. I drove the 5AT and found it amazingly quick. Based on those test drives, I opted for the 5AT.

Is that 1-2 grinding a common thing?

JackSprat01

Haell no, never! But like any MT if you didn't engage the clutch fully, that could happen. Although, if you have a jeep I'm sure it wasn't difficult for you to push the TL clutch all the way in.

Xpditor

I didn't think it was normal... but then I thought, "Why is a new car doing this? And why are they demonstrating a $35,000 car that is doing this?"

I tried to dismiss this as being caused by over enthusiastic people driving the demo. It only had like 150 miles on it.

But... I AM an over enthusiastic driver! Are they that fragile?

It wasn't operator error. I have been driving MTs for a long time. I can go up and down the gears in my Jeep without the clutch and without grinding. I've been living with it for five years and know it intimately. It's like a woman. Scratch that. It's like a bitch. Whether it's my bitch or vice-versa, I'm not always sure.

This thread gave me an opportunity to ask that question that has been haunting me. Thanks.

Macruz19

When I was making a decesion between the TSX and the TL, the TSX was very easy to drive like my RSX-S. When I drove the TL the 2nd time I stalled. Very tricky. Why is the TSX easier to drive than the TL 6-speed?

karaze

Not sure if you know this, but one obvious difference between the TSX and TL are the engines. TSX 4cyl., TL V6. Since the TSX is pretty much the old Integra it probably inherited some of the same easy shifting qualities.

My problem and huge annoyance is from N to 1st. I keep thinking there's something wrong with the idle RPMs or something, or the intake system isn't getting enough air quick enough. But if all the other 6MT dudes are having the same problem, I won't stress over it too much.

tejesh83

Toasterthedog:

Any updates? Any tips of your own you can now share?

I picked up my 6sp TL about 3 weeks ago. This is my first MT car, and I had very limited experience with stick shift prior to it. I read just about every MT related post on this forum and searched google for numerous tutorials. I can get from point A to B, but getting there without stalling or jerky shifts is a completely different story. Although, it is improving slowly with experience.

I would appreciate any help you can provide.

Some questions I have regarding smooth shifting:

1. When moving from a stop into 1st, how much should you rev the engine (hill vs flat)? Do you pulse the gas? Should the clutch be released slowly or as fast as possible? About how long should it take from clutch in to clutch fully out and rolling smoothly in 1st?

2. At what RPMs should you shift from 1st to 2nd? Again, should the clutch be released slowly or as fast as possible? Finally, should you also add gas while releasing the clutch? About how long should it take to shift into 2nd? Sometimes I worry I'm pushing the shifter into 2nd too fast and possible damaging the syncros, or that I'm moving too slow to get a smooth shift.

3. When accelerating uphill, are there any tips for smooth shifting? Right now, I just rev a bit higher than usual in that gear to allow for the deceleration when the clutch is disengaged during shifts.

4. To prevent the car from rolling backwards on small slopes, I've started holding the clutch right it where it starts grabbing. This gives me time to move my right foot over to the gas pedal without the car rolling backwards much if at all. Is this proper technique? For steeper hills, I use the parking/emer brake.

Thanks for all the help. And sorry for all the newbie MT questions. I still have more, but I hope with some more practice, I'll learn on my own.

SouthernBoy

To tejesh83;

1. Use as little throttle as possible while still being able to keep the engine from stalling or lugging, and get the clutch out as quickly as possible without bucking or lurching. Do not pulse the clutch.. this is a bad habit and once learned hard to unlearn.

2. Depends upon the accelerative needs, load condtions (in car and if on a hill), and speed to which you are trying to reach. The clutch should be released as throttle is applied in such a fashion that the engagement is totally seemless. Shifting in to second or any gear.. very little time.. not more than a few seconds. You should fully disengage the clutch and shift into the next higher gear in such a manner that the shift is smooth and not unduly forced.

3. Your revving higher than normal because of ascending a hill is correct.

4. Under no circumstances should you hold a car on a hill with the clutch partially engaged. This is VERY bad and will significantly shorten the life of the clutch assembly. This best medicine for this is practice.


Here is an edited collection of postings I did on another website. Please excuse the redundancy in this text. I hope if helps you out.

=============================================


Note: As it says, this is a collage of various postings I have made over the past one and a half years on the altimas.net website. So you are likely to see redundancy as well as a few other items of disarray. But enjoy and I hope you learn something.




PROPER MANUAL TRANSMISSION DRIVING TECHNIQUES

What follows is a collection of writings which I have posted at various times on this website in an effort to help answer some questions regarding the proper manner in which a manual transmission should be operated. While there are certainly many ways to drive a car with a manual transmission, there is really only one correct way. I was most fortunate to have learned these techniques while I was still in my teenage years. In so doing, I was able to avoid developing entrenched habits before they became really bad habits and difficult to correct. It is my hope that this helps you learn what I have learned and perfected over the years. If you do, you will reap the rewards, both financial and in the knowledge that you have mastered a technique that few do in their lifetimes. Have fun!

Under normal driving situations (not racing), when you start out from a standing start, you do so with the lowest possible RPMs, get the clutch out to full engagement as soon as you can while adding throttle. If you do this correctly, the transition will be smooth and seamless, and the wear on your clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, and flywheel will be minimized.

If properly designed (sufficient size and clamping pressure, etc.), and properly installed with no defects (correct torque, non-faulty equipment, alignment, etc.), then the next, and most important, factor to the life of the clutch assembly is the operator.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY A CLUTCH CANNOT LAST THE LIFE OF THE ENGINE UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

When I speak of engine life here, I am referring to life before a serious teardown or part replacement such as a timing chain (200,000+ miles) or headwork. If you cannot get at least 100,000 miles out of a clutch, you are doing something terribly wrong. Obviously, racing and other extreme conditions such as towing constitute a whole different approach and, as such, do not come under this.


Don'ts:

Do not use any more engine speed (RPMs) than absolutely necessary to get the car rolling in first gear.
Do not hold the car on a hill with the clutch.

Do not wait for a traffic light to turn green with the transmission in gear and the clutch depressed.

Do not rest your foot on the clutch while driving.


Do not ride the clutch in any gear (obviously you will to a small degree in first to start off).

Do not down shift by just removing your foot from the gas, moving the shifter into a lower gear, then releasing the clutch slowly.


Do's

Start off smoothly and with low engine speed, and shift in such a manner that if you had a passenger on board, they would not even notice the shifts.

Hold the car on hills with the brakes.. that's what brakes are for. NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated by doing this is incredible.

While waiting for a light to change or while sitting in heavy traffic, put the transmission in neutral and get your foot completely off of the clutch petal. Leaving it in gear for extended periods heats up and shortens the life of the release bearing. The normal condition of a clutch is fully engaged so it stands to reason that's where it should be most of the time.

Resting your foot on the clutch petal while driving engages the release bearing.. see above.

Avoid riding the clutch as much as is humanly possible. You will extend its life significantly.

If you do not know how to properly downshift, DON’T. Use the brakes (should do this anyway), and avoid downshifting any more than necessary. Improper downshifting is analogous to riding the clutch because that is what you are actually doing. Learn how to properly downshift first and save yourself the frustration of premature clutch failure.

Clutches are wear items, heavily affected by heat caused by friction. In a front wheel drive car, they are costly to replace, so unless you like shelling out a lot of money periodically for the replacement of these components, learn the correct way. Learn it until it becomes second nature like breathing.



I spent some time teaching a lady with whom I worked 10 years ago these techniques when she purchased a new '92 Honda Accord LX. When I last spoke with her, she had well over 140,000 miles on the original clutch with no signs of slippage. So I'm not jerking anyone's chain here. Learn to operate a manual transmission correctly and you will reap the rewards by saving a lot of money. Plus you will be one of the few who know how to do this right.

I don't mean to set myself up here as some kind of guru because I am not. But I have been driving vehicles with manual transmissions for over 40 years. I have spent the time to perfect the process into an art form because when done correctly, that’s what it is. When I sold my '88 Mustang LX 302CID, it was 6 years old and had 77,000 miles on it. When the buyer drove it, he asked me when I replaced the clutch because to him, it felt very positive. I told him that I had never replaced it and that it was the original unit. I added that it wouldn't make any sense to replace a clutch after only 77,000 miles since that is not very much wear. He had a little bit of a hard time believing this, but he did buy the car. Three months later, he called me up to let me know how much he liked the car and to tell me had had not wrapped it around a tree. He again asked about the clutch and I again told him that it was the original clutch.

I used to own a 1966 Chevelle SS396/360HP. I was the original owner of the car. For a period of about 2 years, I was street racing the car frequently on the weekends. At 83,000 miles when I sold it, it would still break traction in all four gears and the clutch had no slippage. It was tight and strong. Now granted, American cars have traditionally had stronger clutches than Japanese cars. This is changing because the Japanese are putting larger and stronger (torque) engines in their cars.



Downshifting

Ah yes, downshifting. If I had to name just one facet of manual transmission errors-of-operation, this would probably be it.

To understand how to operate a manual transmission, you have to know how the clutch assembly and transmission work, and I am going to take the assumption that most do on this forum. I will only clarify synchronizers. They serve to match the speed of the gears in the transmission as the shifter is moved to a given gear. Now for downshifting.

Let's say you are in fourth gear and you are approaching a stop sign, so you decide to downshift from fourth gear into third. What most people do is just remove their foot from the throttle, depress the clutch while moving the shifter from fourth to third, then start releasing the clutch slowly until they achieve full engagement. If you do this, what you are actually doing is riding the clutch in third gear. After all, the engine has returned to idle (or close to it), you get into third, then just ease the clutch out which pulls the engine from idle up to the RPM's at which it will operate at whatever speed you are traveling in third gear. Here is the correct way to do this in steps that I will break down in a moment.

Raise your foot off of the throttle.

Depress the clutch.

Start the shifter up into third.

As you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out a bit (doesn't have to be all the way) while at the same time blipping the throttle to increase engine speed BEYOND that which it will operate in the chosen lower gear.

Depress the clutch again.

Engage the chosen lower gear.

Let the clutch out while adding throttle.

As the engine RPM's decrease they will be met by the engaging clutch and opening throttle.

This should be a simple, smooth, fluid motion and you will know you've done it right if there is no jerking as the clutch comes out in the last step. Now for some details.

As you move into the neutral gate with your foot off of the throttle, the engine RPM's will be returning to idle. This is the point at which you want to blip the throttle a bit while at the same time engaging the clutch some. You want to get the engine turning faster than it will when you are in the lower gear you have chosen. The reason is that you want to spin the gears up to a speed that equals that at which they will be operating when you finally release the clutch in your downshift. If you do this right, there is no clutch slippage because the engine and the gears in the transmission will be spinning at the same or nearly the same RPM's. No slippage means you will get into gear with full engagement of the clutch sooner and with virtually no wear. To best understand this, you really need to know how a clutch assembly and transmission work together to deliver power from the engine to the drive wheels.

This takes a lot of practice, but if you get it down, you will be heads and shoulders above just about anyone else who drives a car with a manual transmission. You will begin to notice the mistakes other are making when they drive. Learn from their mistakes and it will both save you money and make you a far better driver.

So it's in with the clutch, start the shifter into the chosen lower gear, while passing through the neutral gate, blip the throttle and at the same time engage the clutch a bit to spin up the gears, then back in with the clutch as you get into the chosen gear, then finally release the clutch in one smooth operation.

Here's another little tip. Say you are waiting at a light for the green and your transmission is in neutral like it should be with your foot completely off of the clutch petal. When the light turns green, instead of just depressing the clutch and pushing the shifter up into first, pull the shifter partially into a higher gear first, such as second or third. The gears in those selections are not spinning as fast as the gears in first. By starting the shifter into a higher gear before you go to into first gear, you will cause less wear on the synchronizers and they will last far longer because they do not have to stop gears which are spinning at a higher speed. For cars which do not have synchronized reverse, definitely do this and you will not experience the grinding affect when shifting into reverse.

Say you are driving normally, shifting up through the gears to the one in which you wish to be for cruising. As you disengage the clutch and move the shifter to the next higher gear, you might notice a slight resistance just before you finish the shift. What you feel is the synchronizer for that gear forcing the drive gear(s) from the input shaft and the gears selected to "mesh". That is to say, their speeds are forced to equalize so that as they engage, there is no grinding and no damage to the gear teeth. That said, we can move to double clutching.

Double clutching was a technique that came about when earlier manual transmissions did not have synchronizers. If you did not double clutch, you would experience some serious gear grinding when shifting.

If you did not have synchronizers in your transmission, you would have had two choices when shifting gears: (1) put up with some really serious grinding and damage/breakage to gear teeth, or (2) manually match the speed of the gears in each selected shift so that you would eliminate the problems just mentioned in #1.

Suppose you are traveling in second gear, the engine is turning at 2500 RPM, and you are getting ready to shift to third. At the road speed you are going, let's say that once in third, your engine would be turning at 1800 RPM. When you remove your foot from the gas, the engine is going to loose RPMs quickly and by the time you get into third, the engine might only be turning 1200 RPM. Without synchronizers, you would need to raise the engine back up to 1800 RPM in order for the gears to mesh. By blipping the throttle and at the same time letting the clutch out some when you are passing through the neutral gate, you will both increase engine RPM and increase gear speed. As the engine RPMs fall back off, they will reach a point at which you will be able to complete the shift.

Since for years, manual transmissions have been fully synchronized, there is no need whatsoever to double clutch when upshifting and I definitely recommend against this practice.

Now downshifting is much like this, only in reverse. In other words, you are going from a higher gear to a lower gear so if your engine was turning at 2500 RPM and you wanted to shift to second, You would want to blip the throttle enough to raise engine speed to perhaps around 3200 - 3500 RPM.

When you are upshifting, the RPMs fall off and most people find it pretty easy to adjust to this and to add throttle at the right time so that when the clutch comes back out, they have the proper RPM's for the gear selection/road speed.

However, most people downshift by (1) removing their foot from the throttle, (2) moving the shifter into the next lower (or chosen) gear, then (3) slowly releasing the clutch while adding little or no throttle. This is NOT the proper manner in which to downshift. What you are doing in effect, is riding the clutch in reverse. In other words, you probably wouldn't dare attempt to start your car off in third gear because you would have to add a lot of throttle and really slip the clutch to get the car moving. When you downshift like the example I just gave, you are doing something similar to starting off in a higher gear, though it does take more energy to get a car moving from a dead start. Now if you double clutch during the downshift, you are spinning up the gears and the transition to the next gear will be quite smooth.


Junkyard asked a question about the concept of “passing through the neutral gate”. You don’t stop or stay in neutral. You are just passing through, so to speak. In your second question, you said I had mentioned to put the car in neutral when downshifting. Not exactly. Try this with the engine off.

Put the car in fourth. Depress the clutch and shift to third and let the clutch out. Now do the same thing, only this time as you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out some or a good deal and blip the throttle, then clutch back in, get into third, clutch comes out for the final time. That is the movement you want.

Incidentally, blipping the throttle is just a little stab at the petal, enough to raise RPMs to the desired level. You do not want to be on the throttle long because you will be in the process of shifting. Yes, this does take a lot of practice and may not come easily for many, but it is the best way, in fact the only proper way, to downshift because it very significantly reduces clutch and synchronizer wear (especially clutch), and once you get the hang of it, you will be able to do it quite fast.

The bottom line to all of this folks is to match engine speed to wheel speed in a given gear, and to do it in such a manner as to eliminate undue trauma to your drive train. I do this all of the time and have been downshifting like this since my late teens. I actually learned it from a magazine article (as I can best recall). If you know how a manual transmission and clutch assembly operate, all of the components and how they perform together, you will understand the beauty of the process.

Oh the grinding noise Junkyard hears when he starts letting up the clutch too quickly is most likely due to not having fully engaged the gear teeth and they separate (pop out of gear). That or he actually begins engaging the gear teeth before the clutch is fully depress so there is still some flywheel/disk/pressure plate contact.


One of the things I noticed right off the bat on my SE was that the clutch began to engage much too close to the floor for me (a contributor to the problem Junkyard has had). It was starting to engage about 1 inch from the floor, so I adjusted it out to 2 inches and it is fine. If you do this, just make sure you have the required toeplay, otherwise you will prematurely wear out your release bearing.

The purpose of letting the clutch out some as you pass through the neutral gate is to spin the gears up in preparation for the speed at which they must be at for the lower gear selection. This will allow you to get into that gear very easily. When you depress the clutch, you disengage the crankshaft from the transmission. The gears in the transmission will begin to slow down. By letting out the clutch some (or completely) in the neutral gate, you once again, MOMENTARILY, engage the full drive train and get the gears spinning. Only this time since you have blipped the throttle, they'll be spinning faster. As they slow down from the higher speed, your clutch will be coming out for the final time with the transmission in gear and the mesh will be smooth.

Try it both ways. Do it first the way you do it and notice that you have to add a little bit of force to get the shifter into gear. That's because the synchronizers are doing their job of gear speed meshing. Now try it the way I outlined and if you do it right, you will have virtually no resistance as you slip the shifter into your chosen gear.

Instead of going right into first as the light starts to go green, try starting the shifter into second gear.. don't have to go all the way into gear, though it won't hurt. This slows the gears down just as though you had gone on into first, but it's much easier on the synchronizers. And you won't get the "crunch" you mentioned when you have to move quickly.


To prevent rollback; practice, practice, practice, practice.

One way to do this is to find a nice little hill someplace where you won't be a bother to anyone. Take along some masking tape and mark off two sections with the tape a foot apart. Your goal is to keep the car from coasting back more than 1 foot.. of course you do not use the clutch to hold the car.. use the brakes. As you learn to do this, find another hill a little steeper. And so on, and so on.

psteng19

Why is this guy double clutching in this age where it is not necessary?

I understand rev-matching to save clutch wear, but AFAIK, double clutching to save the synchros is not necessary.

The only time I double clutch is when I try to downshift into first and it the tranny won't let me because of first gear lockout.

SouthernBoy

To psteng19;

Wrong.

Yes, you do not have to double clutch. However, if you do, not only will you extend the life of the synchros, but you'll do a better job of rev-matching. The day and age has nothing to do with it.

But it's your choice and your car.. do as you see fit. I'll do as I will with mine.

BTW, if you're trying to get into first and the tranny won't let you, it could also be due to the fact that the synchros are really working their butts off trying to mesh gear speeds for the dog teeth to insert.

tejesh83

SouthernBoy:

Thanks for the info. I have that excerpt bookmarked from a previous post. It's been very useful.

I should clarify my question 4 regarding starting on a small slope. While stopped on the hill, I'm usually in neutral with my right foot on the brake. But when I'm ready to start off into first, I press the clutch in, shift into 1st, start releasing the clutch to wear it starts grabbing, and then move my right foot off the brake onto the gas before releasing the clutch any further. This way during the split second my right foot comes off the brake and onto the gas pedal, the car won't rollback much if at all. With practice, I'll hopefully get my timing and coordination just right to make it one quick fluid motion, but for now I do it in stages.

Also regarding question 1, how much to rev when shifting into 1st and how quick to release the clutch. Can anyone provide some real world numbers for the TL? I just want to make sure I'm not over revving or slipping the clutch too long. I usually try to stay between 1100-1500RPM depending on the slope, and then I just slowly release the clutch while keeping the gas steady. But I still haven't got it quite smooth yet, and I can the feel the point where I just fully released the clutch pedal.

Commo

I just got my NBP /Ebony NAV 6 Spd Man yesterday and I'm having the same kind of issues as well. Today I did alot better in shifting into 1st but its still not smooth like I'd like it to be. Bad thing about this whole thing is that my girlfriend who drives a 5 speed Hyundai Excel thinks that it's me and not the car. She swears it's easy but she'll never know because I won't ever let her drive it after a comment like that.

tejesh83

Commo:

Nice ride. We have twins !

From this posts and others, I've read it takes some time to get used to (even for the experienced MT drivers).

psteng19

Please tell me which part of my post was 'wrong'.

I stated double clutching is unnecessary but will save your synchros - true or false?

Rev-matching will save the clutch - true or false?

ericajackhannahjamie?

Rev-Matching is a positive thing to do

@cUr@-TL

i didnt read the whole thread so maybe it has already been mentionned but...

if you're not under "spirited" driving, why not shift from 1st to 3rd without going through 2nd... you'll save a shift, and it will/should be smoother...

make sure you dont shift into third at 10mph though

SouthernBoy

To your question, "Please tell me which part of my post was 'wrong'", it is this;

"Why is this guy double clutching in this age where it is not necessary?

I understand rev-matching to save clutch wear, but AFAIK, double clutching to save the synchros is not necessary."

Technically, you're right that double clutching is not necessary. But it ccetainly will serve to prolong the life of things a bit.

Your present statement, "I stated double clutching is unnecessary but will save your synchros - true or false?" is true but you didn't say that it will save your synchros. But that's fine.

And finally you ask, "Rev-matching will save the clutch - true or false?". Absolutely it will.


You see.. you and I are not at all far apart on this. In fact, it appears we are quite close in our views on the topic.

Enjoy!

psteng19

Understood, just that you started your reply with "Wrong" which left me confused, wondering where I was wrong.

And my original post did say "I understand rev-matching to save clutch wear, but AFAIK, double clutching to save the synchros is not necessary"

SouthernBoy

Oops.