Another win for the TL

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Old May 31, 2005 | 09:39 AM
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Another win for the TL

I am posting the actualy text of the article since the image my father sent isn't scanned in very well. Scan of Article.

Consumer Reports toughens car rating system
10 models, including 2 from Honda and 3 from Toyota, make it into top-tier group

By Matt Nauman

SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS

Tuesday, May 31, 2005

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Consumer Reports has changed its car-rating system, and now it wants to change how some people view it, too.

"A lot of people think we're white-coated toaster testers," said David Champion, the ex-Land Rover and Nissan engineer who has been senior director of the magazine's Auto Test Center in Connecticut since 1997.

Some characterize Consumer Reports and the check mark that comes with its recommended rating as the single most important influence on American car buyers. Others see the nonprofit organization as a dispassionate number-cruncher that takes the emotion out of driving cars.

"We love cars," Champion said during a recent visit to San Jose.

About 6 million people subscribe to Consumer Reports, either the printed or the Web version. Besides the monthly magazine -- the April auto issue remains the best-seller -- the organization does specialty publications and sells personalized buying guides.

Its seven automotive engineers head a staff of 20 who put vehicles through dozens of tests at its 327-acre auto-test facility. It includes a track, a skid pad, an area for wet and dry braking tests and a section of rough road.

Consumer Reports doesn't take advertising, doesn't allow its name to be used in ads and buys everything it tests. In 2004, it spent nearly $2 million on new cars. Vehicles are driven 6,000 to 8,000 miles and subjected to 45 tests, including fuel economy, emergency handling and towing.

Those tests result in a score that ranges from poor to excellent. Then annual surveys from about 250,000 subscribers are used to compile reliability ratings. Once government and insurance-industry crash tests are factored in, the magazine figures out which vehicles to recommend.

To get a check mark -- 81 of 222 models in 2005 are recommended -- a vehicle must perform well in the magazine's tests, be of at least average reliability according to owners and perform at least adequately on crash tests.

This year, however, after the April issue reached subscribers but before it hit newsstands, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety released some new crash-test results. Consequently, Consumer Reports stripped its recommended rating from seven vehicles -- six from Asian makers as well as Ford's Focus.

That predicament prompted Consumer Reports to change its ratings a bit.

Starting with the June issue that's now on sale, the magazine will offer a two-tier rating system. The first-tier group matches the previous standard: vehicles that are good in the magazine's tests, have good reliability ratings and that "provide good overall crash protection," if they have been tested. Pickups and sport-utility vehicles must come with stability control or not tip in the government's rollover test to get a first-tier recommendation.

The first-tier rating seeks a balance, so that a vehicle that hasn't been fully crash tested or one that does poorly in a single test might not be eliminated. As a result, the seven vehicles that lost their check mark have gotten it back as first-tier recommendations.

The top-tier rating, which will be identified with a check mark within a circle, must do all of the above as well as providing "very good or excellent crash protection" in frontal-offset and side-impact crash tests conducted by the insurance institute.

Ten vehicles -- Acura TL, Honda Accord, Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Lexus ES 330, Saab 9-5, Subaru Forester, Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla and the Toyota RAV4 -- are the first to get the more-stringent top-tier recommendation.

That list should grow, Champion said. He thinks automakers will design their vehicles to achieve the highest rating. The result will be safer cars.

Champion offered a few other tidbits:

* Headlights. Consumer Reports has begun testing headlights as new technologies emerge, and vast differences are being seen.

Of 91 tested vehicles, the 2005 Lexus GX470, the 2003 Toyota 4Runner, the 2003 BMW 745Li, the 2004 Toyota Sienna and 2004 Dodge Durango had the best headlights. Those on the 2005 Volvo V50, 2003 Lincoln LS, 2004 BMW X5, 2004 Acura TSX and the 2003 Subaru Baja were worst. Bulb type wasn't that important.

* Reliability. Automakers try to standardize quality, but they make cars and trucks in different plants on different continents using different suppliers. The results are that quality varies. Champion showed a chart that ranked the best and worst car for each automaker. Lexus, Toyota, Subaru, Honda and Acura topped that chart, as each brand's worst-quality model still was pretty good.

Some brands with the longest lines, indicating the biggest differences in best and worst quality, were Hyundai (Sonata good, Tiburon bad), Chevrolet (Colorado good, Astro bad), Nissan (Maxima good, Quest bad), Volvo (S60 good, XC90 bad) and Lincoln (Town Car good, Navigator bad).

* Fuel economy. Consumer Reports measures its own mileage and is a leading source for those who want the EPA to change its ways. Earlier this year, AAA called the government's fuel-economy ratings "bogus." Critics say the government's mileage tests, which are done in a laboratory, don't reflect real-world driving conditions.

The 10 most efficient models that the magazine has tested are the Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, Toyota Echo, Honda Civic Hybrid, Scion xB, Scion xA, Toyota MR2, Mini Cooper, Mazda3 and Scion xB. All had manual transmissions except for the Prius, the Civic Hybrid and the Scion xB.

Consumer Reports' new top-tier autos

Acura TL
Honda Accord
Honda CR-V
Hyundai Santa Fe
Lexus ES 330
Saab 9-5
Subaru Forester
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota RAV4
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Old May 31, 2005 | 09:51 AM
  #2  
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actually 3 from honda

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Old May 31, 2005 | 09:52 AM
  #3  
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Not shocking. The TL scored the highest rating ever by consumer reports in its class I believe.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by EZZ
Not shocking. The TL scored the highest rating ever by consumer reports in its class I believe.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 11:26 AM
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Whooo Hoooo!
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Old May 31, 2005 | 11:34 AM
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I love it when I can justify my buying decision after the fact.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Brewmaster


I love it when I can justify my buying decision after the fact.
Yes, isn't it comforting.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 11:51 AM
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Good article, Thanks!
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Old May 31, 2005 | 11:58 AM
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Interesting read! I thought the lamps in the tsx were the same as those in the tl... or maybe they just look the same.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 12:34 PM
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Looks like Toyota is more than doing their part.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 01:08 PM
  #11  
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How does the TSX have bad headlights?! In my TSX loaners I thought the HID projectors did great!
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Old May 31, 2005 | 02:04 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by 03CoupeV6
How does the TSX have bad headlights?! In my TSX loaners I thought the HID projectors did great!

Yeah...i'm calling bullshit....



the lights on my TSX are great...
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Old May 31, 2005 | 02:54 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Savio
Yeah...i'm calling bullshit....



the lights on my TSX are great...
Truely weird. HID is HID, how can they be better or worse. I know some are different temperatures, but still.. check this review:

"Other standard items on the well-equipped TSX are xenon high-intensity discharge (HID) headlights for low-beam driving (bi-xenon lights are a $700 option on the 325i) and a power moonroof (which is part of a $1,600 option package on many Mercedes C-Class sedans.)"

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jo...=11555&src=GBT
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Old May 31, 2005 | 05:16 PM
  #14  
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Nice article and good for TL. Thanks for the article Jtow.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 05:39 PM
  #15  
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I bet CR was reporting "worst" headlights in terms of the ones most likely to blind oncoming drivers.. the TSX's stiffly sprung suspension can cause the projectors to "flash" drivers. That just dawned on me - they're probably not rating them in terms of sheer illumination.
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Old May 31, 2005 | 06:14 PM
  #16  
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Calm yourselves, in spite of their best efforts CR isn't always right.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 12:16 AM
  #17  
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TSX / TL headlights suppositions

I'm sure CR's review is not all bull. Judging from the vehicles they looked at, I'd guess that auto-levelling headlights are some of the best.

Cutoff and dispersion from the housings, reflectors and lenses may be a shortcomming on TL/TSX lamps. TLs have a sharp low beam cutoff which is very bad for me. Can't speak for the TSX. The TL and TSX both use the same part number D2S bulb and I would assume the same transformers but I'm not sure about the projector lens. Does the TSX also use a mechanical flap for the high beams like the TL ?

Was the TL reviewed before headlight testing was introduced ? If so then maybe the TL headlights are just as bad as the TSXs.

Flame suit on
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 06:37 AM
  #18  
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Consumer Reports' new top-tier autos

Consumer Reports' new top-tier autos

Acura TL
Honda Accord
Honda CR-V
Hyundai Santa Fe
Lexus ES 330
Saab 9-5
Subaru Forester
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota RAV4

What does it actually mean? The best cars available? Weird. I'd pick MB S500 or BMW 750 over any/all of these cars in a heartbeat.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 08:28 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by triggle
I'm sure CR's review is not all bull. Judging from the vehicles they looked at, I'd guess that auto-levelling headlights are some of the best.

Cutoff and dispersion from the housings, reflectors and lenses may be a shortcomming on TL/TSX lamps. TLs have a sharp low beam cutoff which is very bad for me. Can't speak for the TSX. The TL and TSX both use the same part number D2S bulb and I would assume the same transformers but I'm not sure about the projector lens. Does the TSX also use a mechanical flap for the high beams like the TL ?

Was the TL reviewed before headlight testing was introduced ? If so then maybe the TL headlights are just as bad as the TSXs.

Flame suit on

The TL and TSX both have DS2 bulbs w/ projectors; the TL is bixenon and the TSX is just for the low beam. I think they are both made by Stanley ( not sure though). Only the TL has the solenoid to control the high beam output.

In terms of output, I believe the TL lights are slightly better, but i am not sure about the glare factor.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 08:50 AM
  #20  
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Honda Best picks by CR
TL
Passport
Accord
Odyssey
Ridgline

Pretty much the entire line up!
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 09:07 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by SergeyM
Consumer Reports' new top-tier autos

Acura TL
Honda Accord
Honda CR-V
Hyundai Santa Fe
Lexus ES 330
Saab 9-5
Subaru Forester
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota RAV4

What does it actually mean? The best cars available? Weird. I'd pick MB S500 or BMW 750 over any/all of these cars in a heartbeat.
and you'd be buying it because of its name, not its quality.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 10:02 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Steel
and you'd be buying it because of its name, not its quality.
Actually, he'd probably be buying it because the Japanese don't really offer a car in that class. The closest is the LS430 and its not really "sporty" but ultra luxurious. German > Japanese over $80k.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 01:10 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by EZZ
Actually, he'd probably be buying it because the Japanese don't really offer a car in that class. The closest is the LS430 and its not really "sporty" but ultra luxurious. German > Japanese over $80k.
No he'd be buying it just to make a smart ass comment about the cars on the list.


It's a no brainer that if you're spending more than 60k you dont go jap. (IMO)
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 02:38 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by 03CoupeV6
I bet CR was reporting "worst" headlights in terms of the ones most likely to blind oncoming drivers.. the TSX's stiffly sprung suspension can cause the projectors to "flash" drivers. That just dawned on me - they're probably not rating them in terms of sheer illumination.
TSX's are nice but when I drive around at night I would notice bright headlights blinding me and after looking at the oncomming car it would be a TSX.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 10:52 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by 03CoupeV6
How does the TSX have bad headlights?! In my TSX loaners I thought the HID projectors did great!

I think they also refer to the "cut off" that the HID's often make. The "cut off" line is drastic between no light and light. Regular halogen's defuse over a greater area. Consumer Reports does mention this as a negative for the TL too. Perhaps there's a difference in HID as well.
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Old Jun 1, 2005 | 10:59 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jtow
I am posting the actualy text of the article since the image my father sent isn't scanned in very well. Scan of Article.

Consumer Reports toughens car rating system
10 models, including 2 from Honda and 3 from Toyota, make it into top-tier group

By Matt Nauman

SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS

Tuesday, May 31, 2005

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Consumer Reports has changed its car-rating system, and now it wants to change how some people view it, too.

"A lot of people think we're white-coated toaster testers," said David Champion, the ex-Land Rover and Nissan engineer who has been senior director of the magazine's Auto Test Center in Connecticut since 1997.

Some characterize Consumer Reports and the check mark that comes with its recommended rating as the single most important influence on American car buyers. Others see the nonprofit organization as a dispassionate number-cruncher that takes the emotion out of driving cars.

"We love cars," Champion said during a recent visit to San Jose.

About 6 million people subscribe to Consumer Reports, either the printed or the Web version. Besides the monthly magazine -- the April auto issue remains the best-seller -- the organization does specialty publications and sells personalized buying guides.

Its seven automotive engineers head a staff of 20 who put vehicles through dozens of tests at its 327-acre auto-test facility. It includes a track, a skid pad, an area for wet and dry braking tests and a section of rough road.

Consumer Reports doesn't take advertising, doesn't allow its name to be used in ads and buys everything it tests. In 2004, it spent nearly $2 million on new cars. Vehicles are driven 6,000 to 8,000 miles and subjected to 45 tests, including fuel economy, emergency handling and towing.

Those tests result in a score that ranges from poor to excellent. Then annual surveys from about 250,000 subscribers are used to compile reliability ratings. Once government and insurance-industry crash tests are factored in, the magazine figures out which vehicles to recommend.

To get a check mark -- 81 of 222 models in 2005 are recommended -- a vehicle must perform well in the magazine's tests, be of at least average reliability according to owners and perform at least adequately on crash tests.

This year, however, after the April issue reached subscribers but before it hit newsstands, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety released some new crash-test results. Consequently, Consumer Reports stripped its recommended rating from seven vehicles -- six from Asian makers as well as Ford's Focus.

That predicament prompted Consumer Reports to change its ratings a bit.

Starting with the June issue that's now on sale, the magazine will offer a two-tier rating system. The first-tier group matches the previous standard: vehicles that are good in the magazine's tests, have good reliability ratings and that "provide good overall crash protection," if they have been tested. Pickups and sport-utility vehicles must come with stability control or not tip in the government's rollover test to get a first-tier recommendation.

The first-tier rating seeks a balance, so that a vehicle that hasn't been fully crash tested or one that does poorly in a single test might not be eliminated. As a result, the seven vehicles that lost their check mark have gotten it back as first-tier recommendations.

The top-tier rating, which will be identified with a check mark within a circle, must do all of the above as well as providing "very good or excellent crash protection" in frontal-offset and side-impact crash tests conducted by the insurance institute.

Ten vehicles -- Acura TL, Honda Accord, Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Lexus ES 330, Saab 9-5, Subaru Forester, Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla and the Toyota RAV4 -- are the first to get the more-stringent top-tier recommendation.

That list should grow, Champion said. He thinks automakers will design their vehicles to achieve the highest rating. The result will be safer cars.

Champion offered a few other tidbits:

* Headlights. Consumer Reports has begun testing headlights as new technologies emerge, and vast differences are being seen.

Of 91 tested vehicles, the 2005 Lexus GX470, the 2003 Toyota 4Runner, the 2003 BMW 745Li, the 2004 Toyota Sienna and 2004 Dodge Durango had the best headlights. Those on the 2005 Volvo V50, 2003 Lincoln LS, 2004 BMW X5, 2004 Acura TSX and the 2003 Subaru Baja were worst. Bulb type wasn't that important.

* Reliability. Automakers try to standardize quality, but they make cars and trucks in different plants on different continents using different suppliers. The results are that quality varies. Champion showed a chart that ranked the best and worst car for each automaker. Lexus, Toyota, Subaru, Honda and Acura topped that chart, as each brand's worst-quality model still was pretty good.

Some brands with the longest lines, indicating the biggest differences in best and worst quality, were Hyundai (Sonata good, Tiburon bad), Chevrolet (Colorado good, Astro bad), Nissan (Maxima good, Quest bad), Volvo (S60 good, XC90 bad) and Lincoln (Town Car good, Navigator bad).

* Fuel economy. Consumer Reports measures its own mileage and is a leading source for those who want the EPA to change its ways. Earlier this year, AAA called the government's fuel-economy ratings "bogus." Critics say the government's mileage tests, which are done in a laboratory, don't reflect real-world driving conditions.

The 10 most efficient models that the magazine has tested are the Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, Toyota Echo, Honda Civic Hybrid, Scion xB, Scion xA, Toyota MR2, Mini Cooper, Mazda3 and Scion xB. All had manual transmissions except for the Prius, the Civic Hybrid and the Scion xB.

Consumer Reports' new top-tier autos

Acura TL
Honda Accord
Honda CR-V
Hyundai Santa Fe
Lexus ES 330
Saab 9-5
Subaru Forester
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota RAV4
Yay!!!!
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Old Jun 3, 2005 | 06:23 PM
  #27  
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.... too bad the TL in CR has dropped in reliability from an above average to a average
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Old Jun 4, 2005 | 08:24 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by SergeyM
Consumer Reports' new top-tier autos

Acura TL
Honda Accord
Honda CR-V
Hyundai Santa Fe
Lexus ES 330
Saab 9-5
Subaru Forester
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota RAV4

What does it actually mean? The best cars available? Weird. I'd pick MB S500 or BMW 750 over any/all of these cars in a heartbeat.
Per the article, these cars earned top-tier status based upon CR's road testing coupled w/consumer reliabilty reports AND the newly released crash protection studies. MB an BMW may not have received excellent crash protection studies to place in "top-tier".
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Old Jun 4, 2005 | 02:04 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jdone
Calm yourselves, in spite of their best efforts CR isn't always right.
they are more acurate and less biased than others, good enough for me.
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Old Jun 5, 2005 | 11:27 PM
  #30  
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How does the 04 BMW X5 have bad headlights? I have a 04 X5 with HID and i think that are one of the best headlights. They are far more brighter, better cutoff, and auto leveling to reduce the Strobe effect. I have never got high beamed at when driving that, but in the TL people are always flashing thier lights at me.
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Old Jun 5, 2005 | 11:59 PM
  #31  
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The IIHS just released crash ratings and the TL got high marks.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8107009/
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Old Dec 20, 2005 | 02:24 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by MotionEffects
How does the 04 BMW X5 have bad headlights? I have a 04 X5 with HID and i think that are one of the best headlights. They are far more brighter, better cutoff, and auto leveling to reduce the Strobe effect. I have never got high beamed at when driving that, but in the TL people are always flashing thier lights at me.
Thye flash me too when I have the driving/fog lamps on. That is because they see four lights lit up next to each other and it appears to be four headlights=high beams.

I take evil joy and then showing them what the high beams REALLY look like. Bwahahahahaha
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Old Dec 20, 2005 | 03:11 PM
  #33  
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no fog lights for me (CDN). I jacked up low beam instead.
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Old Dec 20, 2005 | 09:15 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Actuary
no fog lights for me (CDN). I jacked up low beam instead.

You mean you don't have dual HID beams?
What are those inside lights??

The Canadian TLs have different lights?

I didn't know that.
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Old Dec 20, 2005 | 09:29 PM
  #35  
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Its seven automotive engineers head a staff of 20 who put vehicles through dozens of tests at its 327-acre auto-test facility. It includes a track, a skid pad, an area for wet and dry braking tests and a section of rough road.
Hmmm.... so cars like BMW, MB, Nissan, couldn't penetrate the top ten? I can appreciate all the other factors, but the Accord? (used to own one) The Forester? I dunno, Consumer reports always seemed to take a utilitarian view of the cars they tested. Just doesn't sound right.
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Old Dec 21, 2005 | 06:39 AM
  #36  
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You cannot just use consumer reports you have to look at the longevity of the car. When you look at JD power you see that the quality of the brand has slipped to somewhere in the neighborhood of 13th overall. Now some may say that is still very good but buick, caddy, toyota, infiniti, lexus, etc., are all better. That means of the premium japanese and american brands, acura is the lowest of the group. Still better than BMW...

That and wards doesn't have a single honda engine this year. Last year the 3.5 made it but this year its no longer on the list. The VQ has been there each year wards has published the list. Actually mazda, nissan, and toyota are all mentioned.

And, I am not saying the TL is not a good car, it is just that design, features, and performance are delivered for a price. That has nothing to do with quality however. brakes, rattles, etc...
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Old Dec 21, 2005 | 08:38 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Xpditor
You mean you don't have dual HID beams?
What are those inside lights??

The Canadian TLs have different lights?
They have Dual HID beams, but have DRL instead of fog lights on the inside.
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Old Dec 21, 2005 | 09:59 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by mickey3c
You cannot just use consumer reports you have to look at the longevity of the car....

That and wards doesn't have a single honda engine this year. Last year the 3.5 made it but this year its no longer on the list. The VQ has been there each year wards has published the list. Actually mazda, nissan, and toyota are all mentioned.

And, I am not saying the TL is not a good car, it is just that design, features, and performance are delivered for a price. That has nothing to do with quality however. brakes, rattles, etc...
Consumer reports get input from thousands of their subscribes, so YES they CAN effectively judge the longetivity of the car. For example, if you look at the "transmission" category for 2nd gen TL's you'll see a full black circle which reflects the transmission problems that 2nd gen owners have been having. This definetely shows that they are at least competetent in judging a cars reliability.

And just because there a no honda engines in wards list for this year, does it mean that honda's engines are built to a price? Gimme a break, look at previous years' winners, and you'll see many honda engines including the F22C, J32, J35, etc. dominated the lists. In fact, someone posted a thread here a few days ago about the Honda S2000 (AP1) having the highes piston speeds of any engine in the world. Just because there are no new winners this year, it doesn't mean that Honda's all of a sudden building cars to a price point. In fact, I'm surprised the K series engine in the new Si isn't on that list - 197hp, 8000rpm with 22/31 city/hwy mpg to boot. Oh wait, that car was nominated "Car of the Year" by Motortrend
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Old Dec 21, 2005 | 01:00 PM
  #39  
mickey3c's Avatar
Three Wheelin'
 
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by vishnus11
Consumer reports get input from thousands of their subscribes, so YES they CAN effectively judge the longetivity of the car. For example, if you look at the "transmission" category for 2nd gen TL's you'll see a full black circle which reflects the transmission problems that 2nd gen owners have been having. This definetely shows that they are at least competetent in judging a cars reliability.

And just because there a no honda engines in wards list for this year, does it mean that honda's engines are built to a price? Gimme a break, look at previous years' winners, and you'll see many honda engines including the F22C, J32, J35, etc. dominated the lists. In fact, someone posted a thread here a few days ago about the Honda S2000 (AP1) having the highes piston speeds of any engine in the world. Just because there are no new winners this year, it doesn't mean that Honda's all of a sudden building cars to a price point. In fact, I'm surprised the K series engine in the new Si isn't on that list - 197hp, 8000rpm with 22/31 city/hwy mpg to boot. Oh wait, that car was nominated "Car of the Year" by Motortrend

reread what I said... 13th position is 13th position based on several years worth of issues. We shall see how the 3g holds up next year.

I know people love to be patted on the back by some car mag that they made a good decisions in their purchase but long term result (not extended test drives) are what make a brand good. At 17 I guess you will learn that over time.

Honda does build cars to a price point. Hence the global platform no S type offered, etc... They all build to price... that's business.

So was it bias that the 3.0 and 3.5 VQ has been there every year?

car of the year lol yeah the thinderbird was years ago and does anyone recall the maintenance nightmare it was!!!

I know the mags always seem to say the BMW 330 is the ultimate regardless of the headaches of owning one. I can say that it seems to be the same here... I have heard the issues people have been having and have experienced them myself. I may be a tougher person to please in some respects. But hell I do not care about a mag award or nominations when vibrations are in the car and the quality has dropped considerably.
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Old Dec 21, 2005 | 01:25 PM
  #40  
vishnus11's Avatar
Three Wheelin'
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by mickey3c
At 17 I guess you will learn that over time....

Honda does build cars to a price point. Hence the global platform no S type offered, etc... They all build to price... that's business.

So was it bias that the 3.0 and 3.5 VQ has been there every year?

car of the year lol yeah the thinderbird was years ago and does anyone recall the maintenance nightmare it was!!!

I know the mags always seem to say the BMW 330 is the ultimate regardless of the headaches of owning one. I can say that it seems to be the same here... I have heard the issues people have been having and have experienced them myself. I may be a tougher person to please in some respects. But hell I do not care about a mag award or nominations when vibrations are in the car and the quality has dropped considerably.
Please don't try to school me on what I have to learn over time when you don't even have the balls to state your age on a public forum...

And I don't believe I ever stated that having the VQ family on the Ward's "Best Engines" list was a bias - don't know where you're getting that from. All I said was that just because Honda doesn't have an engine on this year's list, it doesn't mean that their cars are lower quality offerings, which is what you seemed to be implying.

lol - nice how you picked the thunderbird to showcase the "car of the year" award. Ever heard of a 300C, Prius, or G35 - 05. 04, and 03 Motortrend "Car of the year" award recipitents and their all performing well and sellin great
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