knavinusa

I'm thinking of switching to something other than the Z1 fluid just so I know that my transmission is better protected. I know some of you will tell me I'm voiding my warranty, etc. but I'd just like to know who else has tried using something other than the stock fluid with no problems, or have even experienced better shift quality by switching fluids.

phatbastard

I had a talk with the service manager at Gillman Acura in Houston about the third gear issue. He told me he recommended the GM fluid for a cheap fix AND WILL NOT VOID THE WARRANTY. So i do not think no matter what fluid U use it should not void warranty

avs007

When you say GM fluid, I assume you are talking about GM Synchromesh fluid? (Which would be for the 6MT, not the automatic, that the original poster is talking about?)

GM's ATF fluid is Dexron-VI, which may be good/better than Z1, it doesn't say anything about meeting Honda's specs. However, there are ATFs out there that do claim to meet Honda's specs. Such as Castrol's "Import Vehicle ATF", or whatever it's called. As well as AMSOIL ATF I believe. If you use another company's ATF that claims that it meets or exceeds Honda's specs, than Honda CANNOT void your warranty and would not have a legal leg to stand on to do such a thing.

phatbastard

Oh sorry, yea don't use GM Synchromesh fluid. I just used that as an example of it will not void the warranty by not using honda's fluid. Are at least thats what my service manager told me.

knavinusa

Have any of you guys tried using that Amsoil ATD stuff? Just kinda curious because it seems only i hate cars has tried it (hence the topic name) and reported better performance i.e. faster shifting. Otherwise, i'll just stick to the regular syn ATF that Amsoil makes.

tc_terencec

Alex i found you

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

There is a great deal of flexibility within the Magnuson-Moss warranty act.
First, Acura could make you prove that the fluid you say you installed is that specific fluid as anyone could have empty containers or a receipt. Also a little far fetched, but perfectly legal, Acura could make you prove that the fluid installed did meet or exceed their criteria. Could be time consuming and costly.

bhelsdon

Just my 2 cents. Acura has been very good about helping people out who's trannys have died. Given the the potential for the tranny in an Acura to have problems I would stick to only the OE fluids. Why give them ANY opportunity to back out of helping you if your tranny should have a problem.

Atrain

The key to survival of any automatic transmission is it must operate within it's adiabatic efficiency range and be built properly. Since we have to assume #2 to be accurate, let's look at #1.

Heat is the number 1 killer of automatic transmission. Most automatics run adiabatic around 160-180 degrees F. For every 10 degrees above adiabatic you start to deteriorate the ATF and it breaks down.

There are two main ingredients to ATF, they are Calcium and ash. Ash is just a byproduct but the calcium aids in the static coefficient of friction. Once you over heat the parts the fluid breaks down and calcium is crystallized into what we refer to as "glazing over". Shortly after the friction material and plates can no longer store calcium in their tiny pores and you start to slip. This generates heat and lots of it. Eventually you can fail parts and be left with a nice repair bill.

I've seen failed transmission where the shop changes them out and weeks later the customer has a repeat failure. Why? Well most cars have a transmission cooler in the radiator of the car. This is separate from the engine coolant but it's still connected to the radiator. So whatever temp the radiator is, you can bet the fluid is absorbing that as well.

But what causes the repeat failure? You grenade the transmission and send debris (tiny...tiny particles trapped in the fluid leaving the transmission) to the tranny cooler. Even if they flush the radiator cooler you will be hard pressed to remove all the spunker and spooge. So you install a fresh/rebuilt transmission and guess what happens when you start the engine? The engine turns the transmission pump and the fluid in the radiator (which is contaminated) heads back to the new parts. Not all the particles are filter by the factory filter.

So how can you keep the transmission alive longer? The first step is to install an aftermarket transmission cooler. Use a good plate type cooler from Hayden or B&M. Do not use a fin and tube type cooler as they are not as efficient.

The key is to determine what the temperature is that the transmission is running and then what adiabatic is.

You need to know...not guess.

A-Train

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

ps. I love amsoil

I hate cars

Good to have you back! Nice post. You are so right with the radiator style cooler. Even with a flush you can't get all of the debris out. In my early mechanic years as an 18 year old we replaced the cooler or entire radiator when a hard part failure occured.

The synthetic will take the heat better, won't oxidize as quickly, will flow better when cold, and typically will not shear since many do not use VIIs.

I run the ATD because it seemed to match the Z1's additive pack a little closer. That may or may not be a good thing. Does the Z1 have a special add pack to try and compensate for the crappy base fluid or is it something the friction materials in a Honda trans need....

This is a very robust fluid made to replace the Allison Transynd fluid for busses and heavy equipment. It's slightly thicker than Z1 at operating temp but very close.

I agree the cooler is a very good thing. I've run the cooler for half the car's life and the ATD for most of the car's 70,000. Recently when I had it at the dealer for repairs, they installed Z1 even though I left a gallon of ATD in the back seat for them to use. I forgot how mushy the shifts were on Z1. Can't wait to get the time to swap it out again. It's no wonder these things wear out with the sloppy stock shifts.

knavinusa

Would you say Amsoil ATF still makes the shifts feel crisper than the Z1? I'm having a hard time finding stores that sell Amsoil ATD here.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

fyi order it online...after shipping it'll be the same price as local shop's markup

knavinusa

gotcha i'll order some of that ATD stuff online.

since i gotta get rid of the Z1 fluid, how much new fluid would I actually need for the 3x3 drain and refill? it's listed as 3.1 qts under "change" but 7.9 qts total. when they refill the fluid, they're only filling 3.1 qts, correct?

special-ed

+1....all I ever used. 110k on the odometer and no issues knock on wood.

Majofo

IHC,

Do you still perform a 3x3 with ATD? How much additional fluid are you adding with your Ext. Cooler?

knavinusa

IIRC the cooler doesn't require you to add any more fluid than normal - it simply cools the fluid before it returns to the transmission and does not hold additional fluid.

I hate cars

Keep in mind that although I've had great results with the ATD, Amsoil does not recommend it for use in Hondas. I think I'm the first to actually try it.

knavinusa

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm willing to take chances, but in your opinion, would the fact that the fluid is slightly thicker at temperature than the Z1 be a significant problem? Also, would your transmission cooler have changed the characteristics of the fluid in someway that may have allowed for you to run ATD for this long, or is the cooler unlikely to be a factor?

BTW, I'd still like to know how much fluid I would actually need for a 3x3, regardless of whether I decide to stick with the regular ATF or ATD.

avs007

A simple oil analysis would show that.

That would be Amsoil's problem not mine. If Acura can show that the fluid does NOT meet their specs, then you would have grounds to sue Amsoil for misrepresentation + damages. Besides, I doubt Honda would do this. If they did, then I would ask Honda to prove that Z1 meets their own specifications. There were many times I've seen companies whose products don't meet their own published specs

AcuraVic

Was that on an Automatic TL ?

YeuEmMaiMai

personally I wounldn't use anything other than honda atf........

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

I believe it would take more than a simple oil analysis to determine the brand of fluid that was installed.

It would be your problem if you were the owner and Acura declined repairs under warranty.

I find it amazing that someone would entertain using an aftermarket product that isn’t even recommended as a replacement for the Z1.
Maybe it’s just me!

I'll drink to that!

avs007

If an oil analysis shows the oil to be "too similar" to the Honda Z1 fluid to differentiate if it was Amsoil or not, then how is Acura supposed to argue that Z1 is better than Amsoil?

No it wouldn't. It would be ILLEGAL for Honda to deny warranty coverage simply because you used a non-Honda part. They would have to PROVE that the tranny fluid you used was a direct cause of the failure. That means HONDA would have prove that Amsoil did not meet Honda Specs, NOT the owner. At which point, if Honda was successful, then they would be giving you ammo to sue Amsoil.

If Amsoil claims they meet Honda's specs, then on paper you are satisfying Honda's warranty requirements. If Honda feels Amsoil does not meet specs (when on paper Amsoil claims they do), that is between Honda and Amsoil, not you the owner.

Using your logic, when you register you car, the DMV would be in their legal right to deny you your license plate tabs until the OWNER proves his car meets crash standards. That's ridiculous.

YeuEmMaiMai

just so you know, honda inspects every trans that fails to determine the cause of the failure, it would not be that hard for them to test the fluid...........

its' pretty well known that honda uses a very thin fluid that has excellent cold weather properties.....

a gas chromatigraph can easily tell the difference between honda and non honda atf and even if it has been mixed and what it was mixed with......not rocket science you know.

We have our own fluids lab here and it can easily tell the difference between our product and something that is off the shelf.....

knavinusa

It IS a "recommendation" after all

Certainly, I'm trying to find as much information as I can first before doing this because it isn't a Honda approved fluid, but at the same time, if someone can convince me ATD on its own can cause transmission failure, then I'll stick to Amsoil ATF. I don't consider "Z1 is an OEM fluid so it must be the best" as a sufficient argument.

avs007

Just to throw more gas into the fire... The manual says it's ok to use Dexron-III as a temporary alternative if Z1 is not available, but says to replace it to Z1 as soon as possible... What's the definition of "as soon as possible"? If damage is possible by using non Z1, why would Honda even say you can use Dexron-III even temporarily? Nissan for example, explicitly says to NEVER use dexron-III, even temporarily, becuase it says Transmission damage may result if non Nissan Matic-J or equivalent fluid is used.

BEAR-AvHistory

I don't understand the point of using Amsoil etc. What is wrong with the Z1 stuff.

I hate cars

I honestly think the decision is purely shift quality. Z1 is more highly friction modified. It shifts harder with Dextron-III.

I hate cars

It oxidizes very quickly. It's *ok* if you change it very often. The base oil is crap.

I hate cars

It's not that thin and it's not synthetic. A synthetic like ATD even though it has a thicker viscosity at operating temp, it still flows better when cold.

Even if Honda proves that it's not the specified fluid, it's up to them to prove the fluid caused the failure.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

i've been feeling my shifts being harder in the last week. i recently stopped driving the car alot cuz of the weather but when i do it feels different. i got alittle worried and started asking people i know they all said amsoil but looking at all the threads about what ATF to use and why to use one and not to use the other. its difficult to make a decision. this would be my first ATF change since i've had the car and i'm at 15K with it. that car has 70K and ran perfectly. i've read everywhere that yes it does oxidize quickly compared to amsoil. you say honda ATF is ok if you change often? what is often for honda atf? and say you use amsoil, when would you change that? drain refill or 3X3 each time? Thanks.

I hate cars

You will initially need to top it off. The cooler and lines hold half a quart or so. Once you top it off, the 3x3 drain and fill will be exactly the same as stock.

knavinusa

So, I'll need about 9 quarts total + a little more to top off the original ATF? Also, can I top it off with whatever fluid I like since all of it would be drained afterwards anyway? I just need to know because I'm planning to get the 2.5 gal bottle online and I don't want to end up with less than I need.

And about my original question, replacing Z1 with ATD shouldn't cause any problems, correct? I know you're the only one that's used it, i hate cars, but I imagine if it were actually damaging your transmission, you wouldn't be able to run 40k+ miles on it anyway.

avs007

You wouldn't exactly be "draining all of it". Each time you drain, you drain like a 1/3 or whatever of the capacity, becuase the rest will be tied up in the torque converter, lines, etc. So then when you fill it again, you are diluting it some more, then when you drain it again, you only take 1/3 out, etc...

knavinusa

Oh, I'm aware of that. By draining "all of it" I meant I'd be draining all of the fluid that would be coming out of the car. In any case, the kind of fluid that I'd be topping it off with would be irrelevant, wouldn't it? i.e. it'd be okay if I topped it off with the fluid that I'm planning to put in, then I do the 3x3 before finally filling it with the final 3 qts.

avs007

Yeah yeah that should be cool. I thought you were asking if it was ok to top if off with like Dexron-III that you had sitting around, becuase you were going to drain it anyways

knavinusa

Hmm, I just realized though - wouldn't I actually need 3 gallons? 3x3 = 9 qts for the refill/drain, then 3 more for the final fill.

Total of 12 qts = 3 gallons?

I prefer my metric system

QuickRick

Guys,

After suffering through the last generation's tranny troubles, even changing my Honda Z1 fluid early, I wanted better.

My friend bought my old 02 TL-S with the dealer replaced transmission and I decided that I wanted to help both his car and my 06 TL. I learned that Acuras have a small sump capacity. Once the transmission gets over heated it is crisis time for parts.

I suppose a cooler is an answer but I decided to use a synthetic ATF instead. My search lead me to Amsoil Universal synthetic ATF which has twice the oxidation life at high temperatures than standard oils. I was pleased that IT IS rated to be installed in Honda cars needing Z1 fluid. I can rest assure that the ATF is best compatible fluid for my old TL-S and newer TL.

You can check out the universal ATF at: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx

I have no interest in this company other than to say that you do have legally acceptable choices besides Z1. If you can find a product which can withstand heat twice as well, why wouldn't you?

QuickRick

QuickRick

p.s. The car shifts the exact same way as it did before, so the coefficient of friction must be similar to Z1. It will mix just fine with Z1 and after the 3Qts.x3 changes I hope that I'm set.


QR