da_illist_onE

I was wondering how many of you guys leave your ac on during startup? I was told that it wouldn't put more strain/stress load on the engine during startup because the ac waits till the engine is running before actually kicking in. Is this true or is it better to leave the ac off when starting the car? Any help or insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

rets

I turn off AC before shutting off the engine.

I won't turn ON AC if the car is moving...

Only my preference. :o

JoganJani

I keep AC all the time. Have'nt had any problems.

yield2s

The A/C compressor doesn't engage until 3 second AFTER the engine starts. Check it out.

JetJock

It doesn't make any difference. Why sweat it??

FTM-1

You will not have a problem with the A/C being ON at start up. I use my A/C just about 100% of the time spring & summer & have had no problems with this on my 2000TL in the almost 5 yrs of ownership It can be in the full manual mode our the auto mode it doesn't matter your safe.

pettydw

I agree, the A/C is not on for a few seconds after start-up. You can feel the compressor kick in and the fan speeds up about the same time (in Auto mode).

Road Rage

I always cut off the air, and drive the last mile or so with it off. This helps reduce the formation of bacteria and mold in the system by letting the condensate dry/blow off, and by letting fresh air destroy some of the bad guys that can accumulate. It also reduces a major source of heat soak after shutdown, which can reduce oil degradation, the formation of deposits on the injector pintles, etc. Some of the highest heat seen by an engine occurs after hot shutdown, and having the air on only adds to the heat load. This is especially true in a modern car with FWD, where all the major systems are loaded in a confined area, with covers and insulation serving to further reduce the heat loss.

cullal

I keep my AC on all the time. 11,200 miles and counting .... No Issues...

yield2s

LOL.... thats like sayin "I havnt change my oil in 20k miles and no problems yet" This is more of an "in theory" question that may or maynot effect the car way down the road, I totally agree with Roadrage's theory.

SouthernBoy

I do exactly the same as Road Rage and for the same reasons.

da_illist_onE

Hey RR,

Spoken like a true s2ki.com board member. Nice to see you on these boards. You've provided invaluable oil and mantainence tips at s2ki.com and it's nice to know that you're also here spreading your vast knowledge about cars. :bigclap:

About the AC, I always did what you recommended with my S but when I asked the salesperson about the TL he said you shouldn't have a problem because it delays the AC from kicking in before startup so there's no extra load or stress put on the engine. Although, drying out the system so mold and mildue doesn't build up is always a good reason to continue to shutoff the AC before turning off the car. Thanks to everyone for all the help and insight provided.

6speedv6

Having the AC on during startup does not puts any stress on the engine. At that moment (first couple of seconds) the engine is actually being pushed by the starter. I don't remember if the fan of the AC system will start working as soon as the key is rotated to the II position (when all electrical systems start before the engine kick's in). If it does, you are asking more work from the battery. So all you would do is drain the battery sooner.

direk_04TL

yield2S gets the prize on this one. he's right. the AC compressor and fan dont start until after 3 seconds after the engine has actually started. so it doesnt really matter whether you have the AC on or not. just my $.02.

TLGator

This is interesting advice, and I thank you for posting it. But do you have a link to a reliable source to verify this stuff? Because frankly the part about the bacteria doesn't seem right to me. Air conditioners dehumidy air, while bacteria like moisture. Therefore, turning off the A/C allows the humidity of the air in the duct system to increase, and would seem to increase the risk of bacteria formation in the duct system. Yes, I know water condenses elsewhere in the car, but bacteria formation in those places is not a health concern, whereas bacteria, molds, fungi, and the like in the duct system might be a health concern.

Road Rage

L:inks? I do not need no stinking links - I am the source of info, not a hanger-on. But if you feel you need some advice from an "expert" you know absolutely nothing about, here is one:
http://www.is-it-a-lemon.com/auto-ex...nance/odor.htm


Feel better already, I hope? Most bacteria do not like high-oxygen environments, nor the sun. Keeping your air exchanger dry is obviously a good idea. BTW, a mixture of white vinegar in de-mineralized water: 1 part in 10 is an effective cleaner and germicide, fungicide, and bacteriacide. It is also a great window cleaner. With the windows open and the fan speed on high, spray the combination into the intake ducts at the bottom of the windshield - it will pull through enough of the elixir to greatly reduce those nasties. I dop the same thing with my home air exchanger, once every season.

If you need a link to that, I regret to inform you that you will just have to takje my word for it.

Credentials: Pre-med student, graduated with a degree in physics from Dartmouth, summa cum laude. 2 Masters/Eng'g, one in EE, the other in mechanical. Technical Editor for several car publications, have had articles published in Car Craft, BMW Roundel, Sound & Vision, The Audio Critic, and the Sensible Sound. Former Tech Editor at Audio Alternatives - my original research paper entitled "The Elusive Visitor" (published in AA, 1981) detailed the effects of high-voltage surges and spikes on Home Audio and computer gear, and spawned the entire "Voltage filtering/regulation" industry for audio. These are now accepted as required audio accessories. Member of the AES (Audio Eng Society) and the SAE (Societry of Automotive Engineers).

I do this not to blow my horn, but merely to point out that a Link does not a reliable source of info make. I believe that is best done by seeing the consistency and scholarship of posts. For example, I have found a few here who consistently post educated, well-written, and clear-thinking posts (like Aegir). Anyone can spout off bilge on the Internet.
Agreed? Cheers! The S2000 Forum (www.s2ki.com) has some of the most knowledgeable car owners to be found anywhere: xviper, ultimate lurker, gernby, modifry, and yes, ol' RR gets lucky now and then as well.

da_illist_onE

Wow what a comeback. Nice way of telling someone to off. You the man RR and that's why people like me respect the information you provided. With or without no stinking links.

6speedv6

I agree. BTY - I love your avatar. I love to hunt down anything N.

TLGator

What the fuck is the matter with you people? My original reply to Road Rage wasn't some insulting diatribe that required a "comeback" nor did I attack him personally. I thanked him for his post and politely discussed a point I was not completely in agreement with. Not exactly a diplomatic catastrophe.

I asked for a link to a RELIABLE SOURCE. This is hardly an unreasonable request, and by reliable I meant not just any random link but to something trustworthy, like a respected journal or news site. Regardless of whether you think such links are useful, my request did not justify an immature, defensive response. Sorry, bro, but you are NOT the "source of info" nor is anyone on this forum. We are all anonymous people and none of us is perfect.

Anyway, I only questioned the part of your post about the bacteria, and despite your defensive response you didn't really disagree with my comments. If your "credentials" to talk about bacteria are being a pre-med student, then I've got you beat by a hundred miles. You'll evidently have to wait a few years to learn this, but most experienced doctors tend to be a little humbler about claiming expertise in medical matters. There is much more to know than any one of us ever can know.

BJ is right. The problem with this forum is it seems to be divided into two groups - those who are a little older and can have mature discussions, and those who are still in high school mode. You may drive the same car as me, but that's where the similarities evidently end. You people need to grow up.

PbPedis

I didn't want to get involved with this thread, but oh, what the hell. Although I agree with RoadRage and also shut off the AC before I reach my destination, I found his response extremely pompous.

So we should take your advice as expert opinion although we don't know you, rather than some link on the internet, possibly from a more reliable source?

Sorry, but that's exactly what you did.

I, and I'm sure many others here, appreciate your posts as you are obviously very knowledgable in certain areas. But come on, get off your high horse.

mikekit

Do you also turn off recirculate during the last mile?

Road Rage

Of course. I hardly ever use re-circ. If I wanted to breathe foul air, I would get in a commercial jet.

You know me by the quality of my posts.

TL Gator: Apparently, my attempt at Internet humor was totally lost on you. But credentials do count. I did agree with most of what you wrote. But have you ever looked at the air exchanger in your home? The air exchanger and/or plenum in your car works on the same principle, and is subject to the same contamination. It can quickly become covered with mold and bacteria, even with the filter in front of it. This is compounded by those who leave the re-circ mode on, which means that the air exchanger is now in a dark, wet, enclosed space. As a bacterial expert, you should understand that that puts your internal air at risk of all sorts of gremlins. Since you claim to be more knowledgeable about bacterial intrusion in an auto air conditioning system, I don't see how you could have missed the tons of data that support my position, not yours. Hmmm. Who is being sophomoric?

BTW, there are any number of products designed to deal with this, but they are more expensive than my simple vinegar and water mixture:
Here are some links, since links we must have.
http://allergies.about.com/gi/dynami...oscope%2F4.htm
http://www.allpar.com/fix/acsmell.html
http://www.airsept.com/odor_id.html

TLGator

Road Rage - If I missed an attempt at humor on your part, it was because nothing you wrote was humorous. Moreover, I did NOT claim to be "a bacterial expert" - all I said was that if YOUR expertise was based on being a pre-med student, then I had you beat. Your posts make you come off like a pompous, self-important ass for whom even achieving "sophomoric" would be an upgrade.

To the point of the thread, your logic about "foul air" is flawed. The reason the recirculating air in a jet is "foul" is because 150 or so people are breathing it in and out, so contagious pathogens abound. Also, relative to the volume of the air in the jet, the openings to fresh air outside (the doors) are small, and are only open when the jet isn't moving. Hence, fresh air has a hard time getting into the jet.

None of this is true in a car. It's only you and your passengers, people you presumably have close contact with anyway, unless you like to go around picking up hackers and whores (now THAT'S Internet humor, clearly marked I might add). The window openings are very large relative to the volume of the interior, and you can open them when the car is moving. Moreover, the door openings are large, too, which means just by opening the door to get in or out of your car, you're introducing far more fresh air by percentage than in a jet.

All of which means that not using the recirc mode to avoid breathing "foul air" is just plain nonsense. Except, perhaps, that if you are on a long trip and have kept the "recirc" button on for several hours without opening the doors or windows, you should switch to "fresh" to get some fresh air in. If someone farts, that's another good time to turn off the "recirc" mode. But in general, "recirc" mode is far more efficient for cooling the car quickly and keeping it cool.

As for the "tons of data" you claim exists supporting bacterial "intrusion" in air conditioning, it turns out, Mr. Expert, that Legionella is one of the most common organisms in such environments, yet very rarely causes clinical disease, except in older men who smoke cigarettes and/or drink a lot of alcohol. Thirty years after the initial cases of so-called Legionaire's Disease (few clinicians use that term nowadays) we still don't have a good understanding of why pathogens in air conditioners don't usually cause disease. Asthmatics, infants, the immunocompromised, and older people have higher risk, but the rest of us - minimal risk. Oh, the data for that stuff? Try doing an OVID or MEDLINE search. You'll find plenty of it.

roadman

In the winter months it is best to leave accessories turned off, should your battery be low there is a better chance your car will start without having any additional draw. Turning off items prior to shutting down your engine will allow the battery to get extra juice if it needs it

Pug

Actually, commercial airliners bring in fresh air through the engines continuously throughout a flight. Airplane air isn't 100% fresh, but it's also not 100% re-circ either. Also, you're more likely to catch a bug on a plane from touching something in the lav, or sitting next to someone that sneezes on you, than just from the air.

Finally, I'm not a doctor (nor pre-med), but based on my admittedly limited understanding of this stuff - all of these measures to keep bacteria out of the a/c system will only kill the stuff that can't hurt you anyway.

Road Rage

You gotta get a sense of humor - the recirc question itself was humorous, so my response was hyperbolic. I know why jets have bad air, and it is to save the carriers money, since larger intakes would raise fuel consumption. I didn't equate them, intentionally.

The original "I don't need no stinkin' links" was a take-off (humorously intentioned) from "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre".

Anyway, we started this exchange discussing how to reduce mold and other crud in the a/c plenum, and got onto Legionnarie's disease - I agree with you that most of the stuff in the car is just irritating to the senses, but it can cause problems for those with allergies, bad immune systems, etc. I do not recall saying it was dangerous. I don't need a link because my knowledge of pathogens continued post college, and my work in R&D at a Fortune 8 company keeps me surrounded by epidemiologists, allergists, and all sorts of guys and gals much more knowledgeable than I on those topics. Your comments jibe with things I have learned from them, so all is good.

They come to me for IT Solutions, machine interfaces to the GC's and mass specs, ways to isolate the SEM's from vibration, etc. - that is where the EE and MechEng background helps - the car stuff is a spinoff from my experiences having raced, been a member of a famous pit crew at Lime Rock many years ago, and having 35 years of wrenching my own cars, and a small business (really a hobby) of working on select cars from a select clientele who have not found solutions elsewhere (sort of a car Oracle at Delphi). I also have de-bugged engine software for several Detroit mfrs, esp one in Bowling Green, KY, who shall go unnamed (It was Corvette).

Rets assures me you are a good guy, so I say bury the hatchet.

PUG: Most modern jets recirc about half the air - the pilots can get much more oxygen, which I suppose is better for us in the long run - if someone has to breathe opoor air, better us than the guys who fly the things. The fact is, the carriers save money, as recirc involves efficiencies in the design of the engine and other energy systems.
http://inspiredliving.com/airpurific...airquality.htm

zeezz

i appreciate the fact that this thread, coming close to a flame war, was able to stay civilized and has spurred a lot of useful information.

that is all.

PbPedis

Agreed, and kudos to RoadRage for that. I hope he didn't take my previous post as being malicious or inflammatory. I can tell from my brief time on this site that he is a very knowledgable guy with a lot of class.

Road Rage

Well, thanks, I did not mean to be a pompous ass, I can assure you. And if I hacked you off TL Gator, it is my bad. Let's move on...

Maybe I should change my Avatar name from Not a Blowhole to Not a P.A.?

BTW, about that Avatar. There is a graphic artist on the S2KI.com site, and he did some custom Avatars for people he thought were stand up guys, or signficant contributors to the site's knowledgebase - and the result is the Road Rage avatar you see here. It is a one-off. Funny thing is, you will never see me rage or use profanity in my posts - I may rage against ignorance, but am actually a pretty docile dude, for an ex-Marine. Semper Fi, babies!

TLGator

Not being an expert on the operation of jets, I'll take your word on that. However, that isn't what is often reported on respectable news sources like network TV news shows and the like. I'm not saying they can never report wrong information. But if you're right, then a lot of people like me are misinformed and have been led to believe that very little in-flight air is fresh. Maybe they have changed the way jets get fresh air in recent years because people complained?

Good point. The term "fomites" refers to objects that can harbor bugs transferred from one person to another. Door knobs, faucet handles, and anything else a lot of people are touching are all good examples. Nowadays it is believed that most common cold viruses are passed this way. Nevertheless, there are plenty of pathogens well known to pass through the air in respiratory droplets, and there's no question that being packed on a plane (or bus, or military transport, or whatever) with lots of other people increases your risk of acquiring an infection by that route.

Another good point. As I said before, the average immunocompetent person has almost nothing to worry about anyway. There are so many other ways to catch colds and flus, and it is very unlikely that most of us will ever get one of the "weird" pulmonary infections like a fungal infection or Legionella. Air conditioning systems harbor all those nasty players, but they almost never cause disease in healthy lungs.

Road Rage - it's all good. My apologies if I pissed you off also. I only ask that you bear in mind we're all anonymous here and have no reason except human instinct to trust what anyone else says. Oftentimes we do trust each other, especially after someone has been around here a while. But it's very common for people to ask other people for reliable links in Internet forums. It's just part of Internet life and it isn't meant to insult anyone. Thanks for your informative posts in this thread. I learned quite a bit.

da_illist_onE

I'm glad that this dicussion has come to a civilized and happy end. Now, time for group hug everybody!!! :ultraghey:

Road Rage

Yes, your avatar clearly demonstrates you are a man of Peace.

If we have the hug, I want you in front of me.

mxtt

You won't be able to eliminate bacteria or fungus by shutting down the AC.

Road Rage

Nice trick post - of course you cannot eliminate them - you cannot eliminate bacteria on your hands either - but you can signficantly reduce them in both applications.

If you are saying that you cannot do that either by my recommendation, then please back that up as the supporters of my position, and I, did. Or I will sick my new pal, TL Gator, on ya.

jpeart0

Alright guys..this might be a little off topic. This is really a questions on how to use my air/fan system in the 04TL. Is there anyway to use the fan/blower while the AC is turned off? It seems like I have to keep the AC on while using the fan. I have not figured out how to have forced air without the AC. Please no flames. Just haven't figured this one out.

Ron A

Push the little button that says A/C. This will take the air conditioning system out of Auto mode. Each push of the A/C button will change the display between "A/C On" and "A/C Off". When it is off, it will be in the manual mode, and you can change the fan speed, direct the air where you want it, change the temp, etc.

jpeart0

Thanks alot. Geez I feel foolish. Had the car for 2 months and play with the auto button all the time. Did not even get near the A/C button on the right. Of course here in Florida it is so hot and humid all the time that the AC is on constantly.

Thanks Again!

Road Rage

Yeah, I hate the A/C, only use it ont he worst days, as those ions mess up my brain, man!!!
As Ron (and the manual - worth reading) said, you can set your car up to do just about anything from startup. I set the blower speed, set the mode to push air on my face and feet, and the A/C is off.

BTW, the efficiency of the a/c is highest when you maintain higher fan speeds. The AUTO tries to run continuously, so it can be quieter, but it eats into tour MPG and performance. I like to think for myself - auto is used when my wife take the TL out (yeah, I let her now and then).

Intox1221

so air re-circ is bad? and the car drawing air from outside is good ?? i fee like an amateur... lol
which one is suggested ?

Ron A

It is suggested to use the one that is most appropriate at the time. Neither is bad or good if used effectively.

The auto a/c will use recirculate at first when the car is very hot to achieve the maximum cooling power, and will then change to outside air.

I use recirculate selectively, like when I'm behind an exhaust belcher, or in an area with a bad odor. Otherwise, it is circulate for me.