Anyone finding that upshifting in the 6MT is not quite as performance oriented as it ought to be. I mean, when upshifting, it seems to take too much time for the revs to drop naturally to the optimal point to match revs of the higher gear for a smooth shift. Why does it take so long for the revs to drop? I mean, I know iwe are talking seconds here, but still. I find this especially true when shifting from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. Any thoughts on this? Is this a tuning issue or a software issue? Myabe it is just what Honda wants. The alternative is to "bang the shifts" or let the clutch take up the slack...neither of which are good for the tranny.

 

if you want the revs to drop quicker give the gas a little tap and it will drop into place quickly. if you get it down right you can shift and release the clutch in conjunction with depressing the gas in one smooth motion. this is for normal driving. when you are aiming towards acceleration you can just rev it to 6K and then shift. at those rpms it won't matter as much to wait for the rpms to drop down to where they are suppose to be.

 

I know exactly what your talking about, I notice that when the A/C compressor is on the engine drags right down quick. I've always just atributeded this to a real efficient engine with very little internal drag.

 

I haven't noticed this yet, because my TL is just one day old. But the reason manufacturers do this is to burn off any excess fuel which may puddle in the intake runners so as to keep the EPA-Nazis happy.

 

I also own a 6MT and along the upshifts, the clutch catches very high meaning that the more the clutch is being depressed the clutch is catching the gear. I had a hard time adjusting to this because I let go of the clutch too fast. So, don't keep revving while dropping the clutch, but drop the clutch to the catching point then punch the gas. This might sound weird but once you know where the clutch completely catches the gears, you can adjust the accelerator to shift the gears smoothly and better during quick acceleration.

 

This is the way the ECU is programmed. Read about the drive by wire system, it holds the RPM's up between shifts, and I don't particularly like it, but that's the way Acura designed it.

 

So what do you do? Is there a fix? I mean it is kind of annoying to have to wait for that sweet spot, especially from 1st to 2nd.

 

I don't understand the concern over rev-matching upshifts. The shifts are buttery smooth when I want them to be and quick and crisp when I want them to be. I don't give either case a second thought. I'm pretty happy.

 

Yes, the tranny is really smooth when you want it to be. What I am saying is that for buttery smooth "I can't even feel it" up-shifts, you need to wait for the rpms to drop before engaging the next gear up (ie., matching engine and wheel speeds), otherwise you have to "bang" the shift and let the synchros do the work to slow down the engine which results in the car bucking, or you can hold the clutch at the friction point and let the clutch take up the slack while the engine slows down to match wheel speed (thought you can kiss you clutch goodbye if you do this). So all I'm saying is that it seems to take longer than it should for the revs to drop the 1,000-2,000 rpms necessary for a buttery smooth up-shift.

 

Sounds like you need to get used to the car more. I don't wait for anything and all of my shifts are perfect. (except for the occasional slip, but that's me, not the car) Maybe you should try shifting at another point or something.

 

How? On an upshift, if you engage the clutch before the rpms drop to a point close to the wheel speed then the synchros have to slow the engine down; if you engage the clutch on a upshift at a rpm that is slower than the speed of the wheels, then the synchros have to speed up the engine.... either way the car is thrown off balance. So if you don't wait for the rpms to drop you must be slipping the clutch alot to have a smooth feeling shift.

 

Maybe your shifting too high in the RPM range for the desired accelleration. I think you mentioned you're very experianced w/ manuals, so do realize that the auto form of your car under normal acceleration would upshift at about 2500-3000 rpm.

 

I recently test drove a 6sp and notice the very same thing. Coming off a stop light accelerating with the a/c on it seemed to really be taxing the engine to go. Really distressed me to feel/see that. :'(

 

you will notice this with any engine that gets most its hp and tq high in the band. Due realize that the A/C compressor takes ALOT of power to turn, luckily under WOT the compressor shuts off. for example On the 101 here in so cal there's a 4mile 6% grade near my home. When decending the grade in 5th gear w/ a/c off the car will gain speed rapidly.w/ a/c on it will hold/loose speed.

 

I'm not slipping the clutch. Maybe I am just used to the car and shift at the correct point or "sweet spot" and use the throttle correctly. I really don't think about it at all while it's happening. I'll pay more attention now though. I do drive the car everyday, all day. As a consultant, I do alot of local travel, so I probably drive more than the average person. If I'm driving the car real hard, then yes I'll notice a little jerk sometimes, but otherwise I drive rather gently. I'll also feel something when the A/C is on, which might be what you guys are talking about.

I wasn't trying to say that anyone doesn't know how to drive, if that's the way it sounded.

 

My 95 Teg GS-R does a little bit. My 90 Teg automatic isn't affected by compressor at all and my NSX isn't either. ALL of those cars make most of their power at high RPM.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you are saying by any means but just saying that I was really amazed that I could tell that big of a difference in the TL.
I wonder if the same holds true for the automatic in the car or something just more noticeable with the manual.

 

ya after seeing your name i felt kinda stupid for telling you about honda engines... but I'm sure the compressor is bigger on a TL and thus pulls much more of that precious low end torque.

 

Probably right. That is a bummer too. :'(

 

Any problems with transmissions are directly correlated to Honda's design and research and development team (redundant?). It is sad that Honda/Acura has some of the best engines in the world but some of the worst transmissions. I'm not sure if any other car loses as much power from crank to wheels as Honda's do, especially automatics.

 

I'm not sure what you're basing this on. The chassis dyno's I've seen show about a 15% loss for the 6MT and 20% loss for the 5AT - about what I would expect to see.

 

your 20% is low on the 5spd, i think 24%-25% is more accurate, but I agree that even that probably isnt much above industry standard in same type of powertrane.

 

My NSX doesn't have an extraordinary amount of drivetrain loss.

 

25% is a little too much loss for a 5AT tov dyno'ed a 5AT and it clocked in at 212 at the wheels. which comes out to about 21% loss at the drive train. so Aegir is pretty accurate when he says about 20% for 5AT and 15% for 6MT. the 6MT dyno'ed in at 222 which is about a 18% loss but it was a new car with very little mileage on it and probably would have dyno'ed in higher with some more break in.

 

I think as more dynos come in the % will be closer to the dozens i've seen from TypeS's(TL&CL) but really it's only 3-4% differance.

 

Ok maybe I was overreacting, I just didn't think there would be that much of a loss...on any car

 

Great pics baby

 

Kind of off topic, but you need to post more G-string pics yield

 

I agree the RPMS do go down relatively slowly, as others have pointed out its probably the throtle by wire setting. It does not interfere with shifting one bit. The clutch engagement is wonderful and the action of the tranny is terrific. I just take it as a characteristic of the system which is of no importance.

 

Ya I tell you what, another Havascrew weekend is coming up so grab your lotion. you'll have more pics.

 

If you think driving a Honda stick sucks with the increased idle hold feature, it was worse without it (early '90's). Honda's have small flywheels (compared to domestics) and the cycling of the A/C was more than enough to throw your shift timing way off. The fast idle hold smooths over all this and it improves emissions (probably the real reason it is there).

 

It definitely does not suck. I think that Honda went just a bit overboard on the RPM hold for emissions purposes which I think slightly compromises performance. But overall, I think the tranny is great once you learn its quirks, just like any other car. Its sounds like the tranny is much better than older Honda 6MTs. As far as the A/C, I find that when the shifting feel is difference when the A/C is on and when it is off. With the A/C off, shifts are quicker and smoother.