BEAR-AvHistory

"minimal side impact" = $13,500+ repair bill. Interesting thought

Since a few of us here who have posted, the bodyshop & the insureance company don't agree with you why should anyone else value your analsys?

evantec

Looking at the pix -- it's impressive how intact the car was, considering that it was T'boned. There's plenty of damage, but the passenger compartment looks better than I would expect from a Sequoia running into it, especially since the Toyota was a truck (with a higher bumper, more mass, etc) than a car.

Back when I was looking at the TL, I was also considering the Nissan Maxima, but the TL had better scores for safety. And when someone goes into you, that's not the time to say, "gee I shoulda gotten the car with better safety features".

Good luck with the $$ side of it, there's probably still a hit to be taken. But if you got injured and needed OT or PT to repair a limb, there's a cost to that too, not just $$.

P.S. Too bad the folks who aren't looking are often driving trucks -- you never hear about them in a Miata or a Mini Cooper. Then again, if someone's in a roadster, they're aware of their surroundings because that's part of the experience. And if someone's up and insulated from the road, they forget where they are and they start chatting...

DaveW68

The dollar amount of the repair is not a big deal here. The most important thing is that the car can be returned to pre-accident condition. The dollar amount is high due to needing to replace both doors, airbags, maybe part of the dash, front fender, B-pillar, and possibly the A-pillar. Although the A-pillar looks like it could be repaired instead of replaced. I see absolutely no damage to that car that would entail it needing to be stretched back.

Here is a photo of a TL that was T-boned at 35 mph by a Chevy S-10. Notice the huge difference in the damages to this particular car as opposed to the one Mrpick claims to have been hit at 50 mph. Now this car would have to be stretched if the insurance company insisted on repairs.

BEAR-AvHistory

You keep saying this dispite the fact the guy getting a 8hour labor charge to fix the floor you say is undamaged.

You also don't say what your expertise is to make a claim from a photo that after $13,500 worth of patching up it will be just as good as new.

alltrac

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Maybe DaveW68 would like to call Sterling Autobody (904)260-9556 and tell them there is no floor pan damage and ask them why they are charging the insurance company for it?
Oh and the vin labels that you don't give a rats arse about is one of the items on the checklist see number 2 on the top picture. mrpickem TL has no chance of being a CPO car so his case is made for diminished value.

DaveW68 why don't you read up on how Toyota checks their CPO cars. I would like to think that Acura being a luxury brand has at least the same standard.

EXPLANATION OF FRAME / UNIBODY DAMAGE
One of the basic principles of the TCUV Process is that only the "best of the best" used Toyotas should be certified. Any indications that there is/was frame or unibody damage, or any sign of structural repairs will automatically exclude the vehicle from the TCUV process. Following are indicators of frame/unibody damage which makes vehicle ineligible for certification:

Structural components can be defined as the major load-bearing and/or passenger-protecting structural components in the vehicle.

The following unibody components are defined as structural:

Front radiator supports (core support), both upper and lower
Front and rear side members (frame rails)
Front and rear wheel house/strut tower assemblies (front fender aprons)
A, B, C pillar assemblies
Inner and outer rocker panel assemblies
Floor pan, floor stiffener, floor tunnel
Trunk floor assembly
Front and rear suspension cross members
Door intrusion beams
Bumper reinforcement bars
While the outer panels (sheet metal door skins), rear quarter panels, and the rear body panel are welded to the structure and do play a part in vehicle structural integrity and crash protection, they are considered primarily cosmetic and are classified as nonstructural. Structural damage, therefore is any frame/unibody damage affecting the designed performance of these components. Kinks, bends, cracks or tears, improper welding, heating or incorrect stress relieving during repair will alter the performance of a structural component. Minor scratches, small dents, smooth bends, or any damage that does not vary key dimensional reference points or standard body marks by more than 2 mm would not generally be considered a structural defect.

Please note that damage which causes misalignment of just 2mm will not be visible in most cases. Accurate dimensional measuring and wheel alignment inspection may be required to identify the type of minor misalignment. Bending damage causing dimensional changes greater than 2mm can usually be repaired through straightening and stress relieving and, if performed correctly, will be generally not cause any loss of performance, strength, safety, or durability.

Previous Repairs
In general, previous structural repairs, especially poor quality repairs, are best identified from under the vehicle. This is the best place to start an inspection. Be through and methodical. In some cases it may be necessary to remove the lower plastic engine covers to view the front side members and lower radiator support. Any of the items shown below should trigger a more through investigation:

Inspect all weld flange areas for sighs of rust or separation. Check for the presence of high weld nuggets. Original factory resistance spot welds are normally concave or flat in appearance. They are usually replaced during repairs by a process known as MIG/GMAW plug-welding, which may leave a slightly higher nugget than the surrounding metal. They are normally ground flat in highly visible areas, but may be left untreated on the lower section of the vehicle by some technicians. Undercoating and seam sealers will not always cover poor-quality welds.
Pay particular attention to the down-standing rocker panel pinch weld flange, especially the inner flange where it joins the floor pan. Look for signs of clamping (teeth marks left by pulling or anchoring clamps). Most structural repairs require the vehicle to be anchored by using some form of clamp to secure the pinch weld flange, and clamping may require the removal of factory-applied PVC chip-resistant coatings. High quality repair shops will repair and re-coat the damaged area with chip-resistant primer; but most shops will generally leave this area untreated. In time, the exposed metal will rust. Clamp marks are usually obvious. Even if coated, replacement coatings may be a different color or texture than the originally installed product.
Inspect the front and rear bumper mounting areas for signs of distortion or straightening. Check the crush beads (depressions in the side members) for distortion or collapse. These crush-zones should have smooth bends and folds.
EXPLANATION 0F EXCESSIVE BODY DAMAGE
Excessive body damage regardless of whether it is not repaired, or repaired improperly, or even properly repaired will make a vehicle ineligible for certification. As witrh all Toyota Certified standards, common sense must be applied to insure reasonable customer expectations are met. Determining what is or is not excessive body damage may be difficult. To assist in making the following items generally indicate that the vehicle is NOT eligible for certification:

The usage of imitation sheet metal body parts, radiators, or A/C condenser while 1) the vehicle is owned by a dealership, and 2) the vehicle is in the process of being reconditioned. Imitation sheet metal body parts do not carry a DOT label. Toyota genuine replacement parts will be indicated by an "R-DOT" label. The original part will have the model number identification of the DOT label. These labels are attached to the outer body panels such as hoods, fenders, bumpers, doors, quarter panels, deck lids, hatch lids, and tailgates.
Any evidence that three(3) or more outer body panels have been repaired and/or repainted through traditional body shop techniques. Bumpers are not considered outer body panels for the purpose of the 3-panel rule. Minor repair techniques such as paintless dent removal and paint touch-up are not considered traditional body shop repairs.
Poor previous paint/body repair: Look for paint on moldings, door handle gaskets, weather strips, overspray and dry paint in door jambs.
Any body panel that has more than 11.0 mils (280 microns) of paint film build. Paint thickness gages will alert the technician to the presence of cosmetic body filler.
Vehicles repainted with lacquer or enamel paint. To check for this condition, dampen a rag with lacquer solvent and rub a hidden test area of the finish. Toyota OEM finished will not be affected, nor will urethane refinish paint systems, but lacquer or enamel will dissolve and some paint will transfer to the rag.

proudacuraownr

I agree, I feel my car has been "tainted".

proudacuraownr

Theres no way that was 35. way more.

fsttyms1

Its people like you that are driving up the cost of insurance and filling our landfills. That was a minor accident (especially seeing the pics of it being fixed) and should in no way be considered totaled. I hate this train of thought by people and car accidents
Who are you kidding. Thats Minor damage, not major. There was very little movement of the unit body. And no they dont just pull the floor pan and mud it (maybe the really bad shops, but not good ones)
100%

fsttyms1

That is very minimal, and is outlined to keep a eye on when pulling straight. You keep talking as though the floor pan got pushed to the center tunnel.

fsttyms1

Ive fixed cars that were hit at less than 30 that looked worse. That looks more like 35-40 than the OPs car.

This car would be considered closer to major "frame" (even though its uni body)

Side impacts sustain the most damage and are the hardest to protect the occupants. There just isnt a good enough way to build the frame to sustain damages like in frontal and rear collisions.

acutee

Good thing you are okay with tbone. The damage does not look that bad, but no mater how good they fixed it, you never feel the same of the enjoyment of your ownership. There will always something wrong with it one way or the other. Even cars without accidents have problems; but now anything happens to it, the damage will contribute to the blame. Buying another car may not be an option since that will not guarantee it will be accident free.

DaveW68

Thank you for offering another voice of reason to this topic than has gotten out of hand.

To alltrac: I think it's pretty obvious that Mrpickems car will never qualify to be a CPO car. I think you're missing the point again though. My point was that he can still enjoy many years of driving that fine machine just as it was prior to the accident. The longer he keeps the car, the less the diminished affects the future value due to natural depreciation. If his car will be worth say 10k in 5 years without the accident, then it will still be worth at least $8k with the previous reported damage. BIG DEAL!!

fsttyms1

Oh and if they cant straighten the floor out its a easy swap to put a new one in.

alltrac

Sorry, I'm not a big baller like you. $2000 is alot of scratch to leave on the table. I agree with you DaveW68 the car can still be a fine machine. But answer me the real question, does the insurance company owe the OP diminished value???

alltrac

You may have 35,000+ post to your name but you don't know jack about body/frame work. Only a nOOb would say "its a easy swap to put a new one in" Just because you can buy a brand new floor pan does not mean you replace the whole thing. The labor would be so outrageous the car would total. In all my years I have never seen a body shop use the whole floor pan on a car. I guess by your "easy" logic you think it just bolts right in.

If the floor pan had a gash, hole, rust through, or a crumpled up section of it that was unrepairable you would only cut out the damaged area. Then you would take that new floor pan and and make a section cut and only take what you need and stitch weld it in.

I suggest if your curious about the subject you read up a little on auto body structural sectioning/section repairs.

DaveW68

Well, $2000 after 5 years is a lot better than say $10k if that's truly the immediate hit the car would take. Although $10k (30%) seems awfully high, especially if the car performs perfectly after the repairs. I think this has really gotten out of hand. That damage isn't that bad for a side impact and I highly doubt the diminished value will be anything near 30%. Maybe 30% if they repaired a car like the picture of the one that I furnished, but not Mrpickems car. As far as the insurance company owing for the diminished value, I have no idea. I suppose it depends on the insurance company and the type of policy he has. But if the diminished really was $10k, I doubt the insurance company would pay it. I would think it would figure into the overall repair cost total, thus pushing the claim over 60% of the car's value and making it a totalled car. And any sensible person can tell that there is no way that car should be totalled.

mrpickem

I appreciate all the responses and info provided here. I did not mean to start a pissing contest however...

The side curtain was delivered to the body shop Friday and I should be able to test drive the repairs tomorrow (Monday 1/7) or about 53 days after the initial accident.

I made quite a few calls and search the internet as well as far as to find someone who could give me a professional opinion on diminished value of the vehicle. I got one company that will do it for $150 but the dealer told me that if the car looked and drove excellent, the difference would be Kelly Blue book from excellent to fair condition...approx $4700 or about 14%. They said any car with only 2500 miles would be excellent condition if not abused, but the carfax would move it down to fair.

kbb.com numbers right now.

Condition Value

Excellent $31,825

Good $30,175

Fair $27,180

I guess a 7K loss isn't that bad...considering. Hell I may keep the car after all, depending on the condition after repairs.

Thanks again for all the useful input.

I will report back after I check out the vehicle and hopefully accept it back on Monday.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Alltrac start acting like 30 and keep your non sense bullshit out of here.

darksom1

Why is there always a need on this forum to exaggerate, or get your point across by belittling another member, or their point? The emphasis should always be the OP's question, but somehow always winds up being a pissing contest over who is the "more knowledgeable" or who is the "big dog" on the block!

Instead of posting responses to each other - once the other person clearly doesn't get or agree with your point, why not merely ignore the other poster and deal directly with the person whom your help should have been intended for in the first place - the OP?

It stands to reason that by doing that, eventually the other person would stop attacking if no one is listening! And the OP can focus on the answers that help him/her in what they are trying to accompish. Just a thought...

fsttyms1

Yes i have 35k posts, and i can tell you i have more experience in auto body than you. I HAVE replaced floor pans and just about every other piece of sheet metal on a car. I spent 4 years in different collision and auto body and painting classes, repaired over 20 cars, and painted 3 times that (and that was just in class). So YES i do know what im talking about. You on the other hand DO NOT.

When i said it was easy i didnt mean it as you just unbolt it. You on the other hand make it sound like its a near impossible job.

mukoh

Are you guys kidding me? Repair this? The car is dead totally.

Even if you put in the 13k from the adjuster to fix it, once the unibody, and everything has been jarred by such an impact, you will notice just about everything start failing, and slowly.

The reason is even a small adjustment on alignment of parts in a well engineered vehicle will cause them to fail quick.

I have had a few cars in my life before only two of them after accidents. Both of them one being an Integra, with 15mpg fender bender, Accord Coupe about 20mph accident on the side, would start failing, from o2 sensors, to fuel lines, to smallest things that would cause the car to be in the shop once a month after the bodywork and everything was fixed.

Don't waste your time, go to two or three bodyshops around and one or two of them will concur that this is TOTAL.

QuickRick

Guys,

YOU cannot dictate a thing to the insurance company. Tell em to do this or that.....Oh please!

You will most likely have an okay car after it is done and may be able to get a repair guarantee. Legally though you can get them to write you a check for deminished value, after all, CARFAX knows that it has been wrecked.

As far as the frame being bent, this is a unit body car, it doesn't have a frame as a pick up or large SUV.
Be critical and do accept only top notch work, you do have a right to a perfect job.
Good luck and be glad you are here to tell us about it!

QR

DaveW68

There sure has been some bad advice in this thread. But I gotta hand it to you Mukoh. You take the cake for the most stupid post in this thread. Congrats!

fsttyms1

Deadly totaled from this
Sounds like you need to take your car to a real body shop.

mukoh

You two obviously have a lot to say but nothing to back it up PERIOD. Accept advising a guy to take a bent out of whack car back together and keep driving.

Weird thing how on a 12,000 mile Honda Accord about 3000 miles after an accident and repairs an o2 sensor died one month, next month the alternator, then next month the fuel supply got cut off, and then two weeks after that the head unit gave out. Khmmmm Maybe its just not the accident right?

I can bring you up on a few of these that I know of with me and my friends.

Fsttyms1 you think a bodyshop knows jack about alignment of all the parts in the car or for that matter anything relating to electronics, engine, and so on?

The bad thing for this guy now is that after the accident being visible on his car the dealership will not fix jack under warranty, and they would be right about it too.

DaveW68

Mukoh, I can't believe how obviously misinformed a person can be. You take the cake. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

mukoh

DaveW68, obviously you haven't spent much time in a shop, and brought a car to the dealership after an accident and were TOLD that after an accident is CARFAXed the dealership will not fix anything on it relating to a warranty, and it is their discretion to determine if a car has been in an accident.

I know the owner of a dealership that is #2 in a major metropolitan area. Have heard so much funny stuff as to how your warranty is voidable and they have a legal right.

And a body shop is not going to do JACK shit about electronics or anything outside of body work and contract it out to a shop. There is no guarantee of the issues not coming up after it and obviously your train of thought as far as engineering a vehicle that puts on 10k-20k miles a year is as good as your avatar. LOL

Even the owner of a dealership told me is that after a fairly severe accident where parts are displaced by a 1/300th of a centimeter when your car is doing 4000 RPMs for a few thousand of miles it takes not too much for those parts that were just moved that much to fail.

Unless you have facts Dave to dispute this then enjoy the chrysler.

bluenoise

1/300th cm? What kind of number is that? Sure, in an engine, such tolerances are needed, but I doubt any car on the road has body panels aligned to even 1/100 cm (or 0.1 mm to the rest of us). Hell, the car's body FLEXES by far more than that just driving down the road.

I agree other systems may have been affected by the impact and should be replaced, but body alignment will have ZERO effect on whether or not the ECU is running perfectly or if the O2 sensors are working.

mukoh

Bluenoise, I am not talking about BODY alignment what I am talking about such an impact to bend the body that bad must have some serious g-forces behind it which are brief but very strong. Stemming from that things get misaligned and shifted by the lightest of tolerances in the mechanics, electronics, fuel delivery, and other systems. Not talking about the body here. When those shifts are allowed to progress over thousands of cycles a minute over a long period of time they will give out.
There really is no way to know if it did or not, there is no mechanic out there including dealership that can check every single active part.

Maybe nothing really did shift, or nudge, who knows? But I have had experience that shows otherwise, and a body shop will just scratch their head and say hey the body is straigh.

bluenoise

Ah...I thought you were talking about body parts/chassis. So, are you saying that simply getting an estimate/"declared totaled" for body and chassis repairs isn't enough to cover all the non-body damage that you believe was likely done in the crash?

mishar

Fortunately you are not right. G forces at impact like that are not really high at all. Cars are designed so that crumbling of body dissipates them in order to save passengers, but that saves internal parts of a car too. Regular internal engine and transmission forces are thousands times higher than those of any collision. Only parts that can be damaged on impact are engine mounts, but it is very easy detectable and reparable.

Regarding your experience, I believe that it is real, but I don’t think that there is any correlation between collision and O2 sensor failure, for example. It is definitely pure coincidence.

Regarding diminished value, it is real. May be not for real technical reasons, but most of us would rather buy not damaged car. That makes damaged less valuable. Should that be paid by insurance depends on a fine print and Court at the end.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

mukoh and alltrac related?

Let me ask, are you a body man?

If not let it go..

I would take it easy on the mod bashing if I was you because you know he can make you take a permavaction.

mukoh

What I know from personal experience with cars that have been in accidents before is that you don't know, neither does the insurance guy, neither does any mechanic, and or body shop. I, and a few of my friends have observed things with our cars which we have owned all together a few dozens of in the last 15 years is that there are really weird things that happen after all the body is fixed after a light accident even.

Take example of my friend me and him were in his civic at a few thousand miles, when a guy ran over us with a boat in the intersection, just backed into us and tore a gash from radiator all the way to the windshield.
The car was fixed, everything was done at one of the best shops. A few months later things like CV Joints, then electronics, and last thing was his transmission at 20k miles died. The dealership said there was an accident, it wasn't even on title, but they can see it in paint and new bumper overspray, and even the district manager did not honor the warranty.

Anyone can say that no the accident wasn't it and be happy with it. I just find it strange.

blueracer17

Get it fixed, drive it and enjoy it. You will probably not even notice the difference (other than the things you think you see or hear that aren't there). The longer you drive it the less your "deminished value" will be. Eventually the deminished value will be closer to the book value (as a percentage). Instead of 30% it may get down to 10% in a couple years. Good luck!! BTW, can you guys take your pissing contest out to the woods (PM or Ramblings).

teegeus

I had an 04 that only had 22,000miles on it back in may. I owned it for just ten days, got rear-ended at a stop light. $17,000 worth of damage and it could have driven away also. Im glad I got them to total it, I didn't want it back after taking such a hit.

twysk

In December 2006, I got hit head on by a full sized school bus doing about 40mph. His front tire rolled over my hood, and I was then dragged with whole hood of my 2004 TL under the bus for about 50 ft. The front end was destroyed. About $19,000 damage. Still was not totalled.

I've had the car back for a little less than a year and put 10,000 miles on it. I am very aware of even the slightest changes in any of my cars. I can honestly say that I cannot tell the difference from before that accident. Other than going back for a slight body panel misalignment (that nobody but me seemed to notice) I have no complaints at all. It all depends on the quality of work that your body shop does. Only go to a shop that uses a computerized frame straightener. If you see the 4 posts and chains, turn around and walk out.

mrpickem

Finally got my car back a week ago after turning it down 3 times for minor cosmetic stuff...exactly 65 days after the initial accident. I am absolutely as happy as possible at the job they did. It is as close to perfect as I could've imagined. If you get in the right light, you can see the slightest difference in the paint...it's tough to match factory metallic paint exactly imo. A very slight misalignment of the glove box door & dust in the a/c vent are the only complaints I can find at this point. I am ecstatic!

I did speak to a professional appraiser about possible diminished value claim and he said that the state supreme court recently ruled that you cannot receive a diminished value claim if you are at fault. He did say that I could get a tax deduction for the diminished value with proof. His fee is $300 and he estimated the diminished value at 7-10K with the info I gave him over the phone. I will decide if the deduction is needed later when I get into my taxes and may still utilize his services.

I do plan on keeping the car at least a year or so before trading it.

Thanks again for all the help and support throughout my ordeal. TG it's over!

Here are some pics of my baby a week after the repair was completed...albeit on a rainy day:



Note- The hood & trunk lid have factory paint / the whole right side and roof were repainted.

KJSmitty

Your friend had a perfect "Magnuson Moss Act" case. I would have taken the dealership/manufacturer to court - at a min sicked my lawyer at em....

They would have to prove that the accident cased all of the issues - and if it had, you then take that ruling/data straight back to the insurance company and go after them to pay for the "resulting" damages etc...

Either-way he /she had rights. You just need to know your rights because the dealership and insurance company sure as heck wont always point you in the right direction... Especially when it's not in their better interest.



Your TL looks great mrpickem

- Hey wait, I thought this TL was "dead totally!"

Just kidding mukoh

Glad everything worked out

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

Car looks great! I'm glad you didn't bother for anything less .. shows character ;-).

QuickRick

Looks like they did a fine job........no worries just enjoy it!

All cars start out as hunks of metal and this one still is!

QuickRick