SuperStar

Calling you an idiot would be appropriate here.

junktionfet

Not sure if we want to understate the matter, however it's possible the offending vehicle shrugged off a fair bit of speed before the actual impact took place and/or the TL slid sideways enough to dissipate some energy.

The moral of the story is that a 50 mph side impact can easily cause some pretty serious injury to you and the car. The author of the thread is lucky to have gotten hit the way he did and to have bought a solid car.

As you may know, impact force rises in a nearly exponential manner as speed increases. Here is the result of "just" a 31 mph side impact crash with a TL. Notice how extensive the damage is, even the roof and floor is seriously damaged, as is the interior. This car would probably end up with a salvage title... or worse. It looks like the car did an excellent job protecting it's occupants.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=257

If the impact speed was 50mph in this particular test, we'd see a much worse picture for sure. So the apparent damage on the car in this thread indicates that the impact forces were far less than "worst case" for a 50 mph crash.

mishar

You are right! Only an idiot can offer some knowledge to guys like you.

It looks like I can never learn: Do not throw pearls before swine.

VQPower37

any update on ur car?????

leedogg

fyi, i'm sure the other guy is more crumpled up. The side of a car isnt supposed to crumple, so this could be a pretty hard crash, and the reinforced structure, if it holds properly, will not look like it was that damaged..

T Ho

50mph in a Sequoia, though, is a LOT of energy to dissipate into the side of the vehicle. At time of impact, from the pics, and the mentioned 2 ft slide, I'm guessing 20-25mph. It's impressive to see the outline of both the door guards under the sheet metal- that's someone's legs and pelvis that just got saved, had they been sitting there.

A friend of ours got T-boned in an '03 TL by a lady in a Bonneville actually doing 50. There were no skid marks before the point of impact. The passenger side was pushed in about 12"- rocker, B-pillar, floor buckled, etc. In addition, the unibody curved into the impact. Her 3yo son was in a car seat on that side of the car, and luckily it protected him well. She was left with some muscle soreness due to the hit, and some light burns from the airbag. Otherwise, they walked away. She went and immediately bought an '05 to replace the '03, as they were very impressed with the protection.

These are good cars, and protect us well. No doubt.

Warrior 6

Mr. Pickem....So glad that your OK! Being a fellow KBP owner, my heart goes out to you. Great to hear that they are using OEM parts and materials in the repair. Recommend that you monitor in "detail" the repairs and not take the vehicle back until you are "completely" satisfied. I agree with "The Dougler", technologies today allow repairs to bring the vehicle back to new status. Keep us posted on how this turns out for you. All the Best!

mrpickem

Still haven't got my car back. I've been to the body shop several times. Very good people there. (Sterling Autobody - Mandarin) I took some pics 2 weeks ago on 12/10 (see below). Since then the body work has been completed. The vehicle was sent to Acura last week to have the side curtain reinstalled, but alas they still had not recieved the part. So back to the body shop for paint which began Friday and will be continued today. Not sure how happy I am that this is being done around holiday time/party time.

Still hope to get car back next week. Prolly gonna drive it straight to a dealer and try to trade it in right away. I paid $34K for it new. Is there a chance it may bring 28-30K. I'm hoping that it will. I would never be comfortable in it after this mess.


Damn I hate seeing all that dust settling inside my car/ducts etc...

Also I didn't mean to start an argument about the speed at impact. I have no way of knowing, it is all just speculative, but I believe the speed was at least 30-40 if not more. My reasoning is that the SUV never even braked in my estimation. The jackass was on his cell. He hit me flush which dissipated the impact over a very wide area and the TL is quite light which allowed it to slide quite easily.

darksom1

The price is going to take a hit, excuse the pun, after an accident like that is on the Carfax report! So factor that into what the market value is for the vehicle. You may wind up keeping her after all. Some people have kept their cars and they were ok afterwards. I think a lot of it has to do with if you have a good bodyshop that doesn't cut corners. I wish you more good luck...as you apparently have already had some!

Volvos and TLs are tanks baby!

mickey3c

Geez I wouldn't want to keep that car. I am sure the warranty has been impacted to some degree since the argument could be made that a problem stemmed from the accident. I am surprised they did not total it. If it was the TL driver's fault as well I imagine there would be a surcharge as well. I know in mass there is based on the $$ of the accident.

steve9207

I read through this thead when you first posted this almost a month ago now. I know you're dissapointed that it's not done yet, but I would say a month for that type of damage isn't that uncommon. Although, the shop should have ordered the side curtain airbag when they first started the work, to ensure it would be in when they needed it (maybe they did and it's just that backordered...??).

In any event, this may have already been mentioned, but have you sought out the idea of recieving a DIMINISHED VALUE payment for the loss you're going to take on the trade in? The other parties insurance should factor this in when your company subrogates against them. This should help offset any losses you take when trading it in. Depending on your state laws and your insurance company, will determine how easily you get this. I've seen some members on AZ talk about getting this quite easily while others fought and fought with no luck

Good luck!

alltrac

Note: In the state of Florida Diminished Value can only be collected if you are NOT the at fault party.

Diminished value is the loss in a damaged vehicle's market value after repairs have been completed. Whether you own or lease, you could loose hundreds or even thousands of dollars at time of sale or trade in through diminished value. It may be the best kept secret many insurance companies don't want you to know about.

Suppose your car was damaged in an accident. It was repaired and the repairs were absolutely perfect. This car has still lost value since it is now perceived by any potential buyer as "damaged goods." This type of loss is known as "Inherent Diminished Value" and it applies regardless of the quality of the repair that was done. There are two other types of diminished value as well.

"Insurance Related Diminished Value" applies when an insurance company did not allow for the needed repair procedures in the claim or when they required substandard parts to be used in the repair. As an example, a car was damaged on the right front fender and the inner panels also suffered minor damage; the insurance company specified replacing with an imitation (after market) fender and did not allow for any repair to the inner panels even though they are visible when the hood is open. The imitation (after market) fender and the uncompleted repairs would both diminish the value of said vehicle.

"Repair Related Diminished Value" applies when a shop was paid to perform needed repairs but did not do them correctly. For example, if a repair shop was paid to repair and refinish (paint) a door but the paint is mismatched or had visible sandpaper scratches, this car now has repair related diminished value.

If your vehicle has been involved in an accident, you have lost money! This loss is owed to you for up to five years after the accident, either by the insurance company or the at fault party. And this loss is owed to you even if the repairs were done correctly.

Florida law is clear in the event of a covered loss, any economic loss is recoverable. To be fully indemnified (made whole), one is entitled to recover any loss in monetary difference between the value before loss and the value after repairs.

mrpickem

I've been told that car fax dont pick up the accident sometimes for up to 60 days, hence my immediate action to trade the vehicle. Does anyone know for sure how long an accident takes to get on carfax?

alltrac

It can vary and it depends on the state your in and also if a police report was taken at the time of accident. Two months sound about right but if I'm not mistaken when you trade in a vehicle don't you have to disclose frame damage? even if fully repaired.
I found this on the web.
car trade in fiasco

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the name of your state? Florida

I purchased a new car with a trade in. I paid the difference of the trade in with a credit card so the new car is paid in full. Among the papers I signed was a paper stating there was no frame damage to the trade in. I disclosed to the dealer that the trade in was in an accident, the car was hit in the rear. To my knowledge, when the car was repaired there was no frame damage. I received a call a few days later telling me that they, the dealer wanted to give me back my car and they wanted the new car back. I was told they found frame damage. I never lied to them and it was me who told them about the accident. They were aware of the repair and told me they could not sell the car on there lot, they would have to wholesale it because it might have additional damage that can't be seen. I have been intimidated by them, threatened that they would repossess the car, I would be responsable for court costs, etc. I have not returned the new car yet and am led to believe that because I did not have any prior knowledge of frame damage, the sale should be final. Please advise me?

alltrac

Maybe this might help you prove diminished value. You can go to any Carmax location and get a free offer to buy your car. Use the value they offer you to assess the diminished value from a non-accident TL-S. There are also services for a small inspection fee will give you a diminished value assessment. Use the fact that carfax will indeed devalue your vehicle as it brands your vehicle as being suspect of possible damage and an accident report that will never go away. Carfax lets you know of an accident or frame damage but make no further mention in there reports about it being fixed or repaired.

Lisa of Stanford CA (12/19/07)
I bought a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder believing it had not been in an accident due to relying on Carfax records. I then went to sell the car about 1.5 years later (I got a local job and was no longer relocating cross country and didn't need the big vehicle), and Carfax records had changed. All of a sudden their report showed the record of an accident. The accident had occurred years prior to my buying the car. The first record check they did for me--the one I relied upon in deciding to purchase the vehicle--was wrong.

Adding to Carfax's remarkably effective method of devaluing my vehicle, the new Carfax records simply said accident. Despite the availability of details of the accident, Carfax took no responsibility for publishing these details. (I finally got a hold of the accident report from the DMV.) Carfax took no responsibility for helping a potential buyer understand the extent of the damage (or lack thereof) that was caused. They basically threw the information out there that was easiest for them to obtain.

They had no regard for the impact the information would have nor did they feel responsible for providing details that would help a person interpret the information. They were not apologetic. They were all but IMPOSSIBLE to reach. (I doubt this is an accident, pun intended.) All potential buyers assumed the worst about the car. Carfax claims to offer a service, but what they offered me was a complete disservice.

I lost $4,000 when I re-sold my car 1.5 years later. This money was to be part of a downpayment on a home. (I am still renting.) Carfax single-handedly devalued my vehicle. No other organization I have ever worked with in my life has cost me so much money.

alltrac

Incase you are at fault for this accident this may help too.

It is usually more difficult to collect DV on first-party claims than on third-party claims. The reason for this is that many consumers, unbeknownst to them, purchase insurance policies that have DV exclusions written in them. By virtue of being bound to this contract that they purchased, these consumers will be forced to forgo this portion of their claim. But even in these cases, consumers that have purchased a post-repair inspection will often have proof that the repairs have failed to restore the vehicle to its pre-loss condition. Faced with this proof and the obligation to indemnify the policyholder, insurers are often forced to make a monetary concession - though rarely will they call it a DV payment.

mrpickem

Thanks for the info. Who might I contact about the post-repair inspection? My Acura dealer?

alltrac

There are so many places that do this and it depends on the area you live in. I would Goggle " diminished value" and you will get a ton of hits and info. Choose an expert that specializes in this field and expect to pay no more than $200
Your pictures that you took during the repair process will help you and make their job easier.

Good luck and lets see some pictures when you get it back.

mrpickem

Side curtain airbag on national backorder. No eta per Acura dealer. That sux! It has been ordered for 5 weeks now. Apparently the curtain changed in 07 and is not readily available yet. Car looks good, paint done...no pix this time tho.

I;m tired of driving my Z71 everyday...I want my car back. waaaahhhh

bigBLACKTL

daymm dude that sucks, at the right body shop i think it can ride like normal again

steve9207

To add to my post earlier about the Diminished Value topic, regarding Carfax reporting as far as I understand this is dependant on the shop you use (and possibly your insurance and/or police report). I've heard that it's up to the individual body shop to report it, but there's no law stating they have to report it. On my previous 97 CL, it was struck by lightning requiring extensive repairs (not on Carfax), front door overextended requiring body work (not on Carfax). The lightning strike went through Insurance the Door repair was paid for in cash. When I went to sell the car, I ran a carfax which came back completely clean...

MR1

Don't rush them, you want it right. Why don't you have a rental?
Suggust that you drive it for a while to see how it is and get it sorted out. In most states I think you will be committing fraud if you don't disclose that the car has been in a major accident. If you can get diminished value that will help things somewhat. You may be suprised how good the repairs are.

If you went with an insurance recommended repair shop, your repairs may be guaranteed for the life of the car. I went through a similar situation with our MDX like 5 years ago. It still runs and looks great. I even took it back after one year to get some suspension work done with no problems. Good luck.

NM08SRT8

I'm sorry to rain on your guys' parade... But judging from that small "ding" and the crash test showing here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6152951/ Shows an actual TL in a side impact crash. This simulates an SUV going 35mph, 10-15mph slower than you're claiming the vehicle hit you at...

Now I'm a member of several Honda boards and I personally own a little 91 Acura Integra de-modded so I can relate on these lovely vehicles. And most and foremost, I as much as everyone on here, is glad that you're ok. I just wanted to point out the 45MPH claims don't seem that realistic when you view these tests taken with SUV's going 35mph

DaveW68

I don't think you have anything to worry about. The damage to your car is very minimal and it doesn't appear to have suffered any major structural damage. I have to agree with an earlier post that the guy driving the Toyota was probably going less than 10 mph at the moment of impact. I've seen worse side damage just from a vehicle being backed into in a parking lot. The post above from MSNBC showing the insurance institute crash video was based on 31 mph. The fact that your window didn't even break and that there was barely, if any intrusion into the cockpit seems to confirm the 10 mph or less theory. I'm glad you're OK and that the repairs seem to be progressing nicely. Although I understand your frustration with the long wait on the airbags. Your car will be just fine and you have nothing to worry about. There will be no need to get rid of it in haste. You have a fine automobile there and will have many more years of enjoyment with it.

S PAW 1

[QUOTE=alltrac]Note: In the state of Florida Diminished Value can only be collected if you are NOT the at fault party.

I'm no attorney, but when I lived in Florida (1990-1994), Florida was a "no fault" state. Looks to me like EVERYONE could collect "diminished value".

alltrac

Who are you kidding that was major structural damage. Take a look at the pictures the A pillar, center door post B pillar, lower rocker panel, and floor all sustained damage. The fact is there is no cost effective way to replace the floor so they will put it on a frame rack and will pull out the damage and mud it up to look like it was never crinkled. The hit was hard enough to buckle the rear quarter panel and it looks like it buckled the roof skin.

Can a body shop repair the damage? Yes

Can vin number stickers be replaced NO your brand new replacement doors will come with DOT stickers. To most people they will never see the tale tale signs of an accident but to an anal buyer or a professional they will spot the signs.

Can a body shop remove a dash board and put back they way it came from the factory? Hell no! I'm in 10-13 body shops every day M-F for the last 6 years. The good ones and the bad ones. Your screws, nuts, bolts, clips, etc. will end up in a cup or container and when the time comes to put it back together it's a jigsaw puzzle.

I have no doubt the car will be safe to drive and could provide the same number of years of service as an uncrashed one. But the fact is this car will never fully be returned 100% to it's pre-accident condition.

Accident in Florida with a police report will indeed show up on a Carfax in due time. Carfax will devalue his car.

II kings 9:20

Glad to hear you are OK, the TL performs spectacularly in the side impact crash test. I hate to dispute your facts but there is no way that was a 45 mph T bone impact. http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=257 is the IIHS side impact test at 30 mph with a battering ram weighing 1500 pounds less than the Sequoia. Note the A and B pillars, the doors, roof, and windshield at a much lower speed and much less weight. Gluck with the repair decision.

DaveW68

No matter, it was still minimal structural damage. I'd be much more worried if the car was turned into a "U" if it had actually been hit at 45 mph. The pictures seem to prove that the speed of the Toyota was no more than 10 mph at the moment of impact. And it's very obvious that the Toyota had his brakes slammed on at the time due to how low it impacted the door and was not travelling at full speed. I have no doubt in my mind that a good body shop can return the car to its pre-accident condition since the damage isn't too bad. The frame of that car appears to be perfectly intact.

You must deal with some pretty crappy shops on a regular basis. Any good shop could easily return that car to 100% of its pre-accident condition.

alltrac

This is not a F-150 pickup truck with a body on frame design. I think you need to read up on unibody cars so you dont make stupid comments like No it did it's job and dissipated the enegry of the crash. when you have to drill and cut out panels, pull the floor back into shape, and weld in new pillars the cars frame is not perfectly intact.

I could care less about the speed of the impact. All you guys keep chiming in here about the speed and it's not even the point. Is the OP going to take a hit on the value of his car?

Your an idiot if you think this car will be returned 100% pre-accident. Did the car come form the factory with body filler? I don't think so. Yes body shops can fix the damage maybe the car will be 99% close to perfect. Never again will the car be like the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Do you have a sloution for the missing door vin stickers? DOT sticker is a sure sign of a replacement door.
Your such a fan of these mystical body shops maybe they can wave a magic wand and reproduce these vin stickers.

DaveW68

I can tell that you are the type of person who just likes to argue for arguments sake. I know that the car isn't body on frame. Who ever said it was? There are only a couple of mainstream cars that I can think of that are still body on frame and they are built by FMC. I'm not sure why you brought that into the conversation. Maybe just to be a jag and to make another argument that didn't exist in the first place?

You seem to be grasping at straws with your arguments. I guess you could say the car would no longer be the same as factory if somebody keyed it and panels had to be repainted. So what! My point is that a good bodyshop, with the limited damage that car sustained, could return that car to working, performing, and looking exactly as it did prior to the accident. I don't give a rats arse about the VIN stickers. That was never part of my point because it doesn't play into the argument that a good bodyshop could return the car to pre-accident condition. Sure, maybe it will affect future resale value. But why would it matter if he can get years of trouble free service out of it. And for the record, the floor pan didn't appear to sustain any damage whatsoever. The only possible frame damage that I saw was the lower sections of the A & B pillars. But even that damage did't look to terribly bad. You seem to be blowing the damage to that car all out of proportion. It is fairly minimal for a side impact collision.

Mrpickem, enjoy that fine car of yours when you get it back from the shop. I bet you'll be thrilled to find out it works exactly as it did prior to the accident when you get it back. And don't forget that absence makes the heart grow fonder.

BEAR-AvHistory

Two things the bill he printed says 8 hours labor to fix the floor pan + 8 hours & parts for the rocker panels, 16 hours is a lot of time to spend on no damage whatsoever.

As for future resale value its not 'maybe' but how much.

The guy has $13,500 damage on a $35,000 - 30% of the initial value not a trivial amount.

DaveW68

I'm not too concerned about the cost of the repairs. Most body shop repair bills are very trumped up and go off of book time, not the realistic time it takes to do repairs. As far as the floor pan, I could see no damage whatsoever to it. I'm sure most of that time will be dedicated to removing and then reinstalling interior parts such as the seats, carpet, dashboard, etc in order to make other repairs, such as to the A & B pillars, ground effects, and passenger side dash.

If he was only planning on keeping the car 1-2 years, then maybe it would be worth it to him to try and get rid of it before anybody notices in order to avoid the Carfax hit. But any longer than that, he might as well just enjoy it because I'm sure the body shop will be able to return it to pre-accident condition. You fellas seem to be such pessimists about your beloved TL's.

alltrac

Well if you do know the Acura TL is a unibody and not a body on frame like the Crown Victoria. Then why would you make this asnine comment?
Maybe you should go back and look at the picture posted of the damage during the repair process. I have probably spent more time in a body shop then you ever will and your comments make you look like a complete jackass.

DaveW68

At this point you are just trying to be an @$$hole and succeeding quite well at it. So you're trying to tell me that the unibody structure is not the frame of the car? I think everybody else gets it but you. It's time for you to stop splitting hairs and grow up. It makes you look desperate.

alltrac

No, I would be a moron if I thought that the unibody structure was not part of the frame. You by your own admission obviously don't think the A and B pillar, rocker panel, and floor pan damage are not consider part of the frame structure. Otherwise you would not have made this comment.
I have been trying to tell you DaveW68 you made this ridiculous comment not me. Now Look below again and read the quote slowly and let the words that you typed sink in, these are your words not mine.
Now look above incase you've missed it yet again. Do you see the words that you typed?
Did you see the pictures posted by the OP of the damage to the A and B pillar, rocker, and floor?
You seem to have a problem understanding your own words. Are you ESL?
Do you read from left to right, top to bottom?
I have quoted your own words several times and you keep dodging the question. why did you make that comment?

DaveW68

Listen here jackass. I asked you politely to stop splitting hairs, yet you just keep at it. Let me make my point a little bit more clear so you understand where I'm coming from. By the frame, I was really referring more to the floor pan. A bent up floor pan would pose the most potential problems in a major repair due to needing to be stretched back into position if compromised, thus affecting the overall integrity of the car. Having to weld in a new B & possibly an A pillar onto the intact floorpan is not that big of a deal to the integrity of the car. I'm starting to wonder if you have the problem understanding English. For a guy who supposedly spends sooo much time at body shops, I thought for sure that you would understand what I meant. I was obviously wrong and apologize for making that assumption. I'm going to ask you one more time to please stop splitting hairs and dragging out this meaningless banter. By now, I hope everybody else gets it. And I still firmly believe that any good shop can return that car's "physical condition" to the way it was prior to the collision. I don't care about DOT stickers and such. It's really about whether the car will drive and handle exactly the same after the repairs are complete. I believe it will.

alltrac

Happy New Year DaveW68

I will end in saying that the floor pan was damaged and the body shop had to pull it back into shape.

BEAR-AvHistory

I am sure the people who have to pay the bill & higher insurance premiums are a bit concerned about a 30% hit on the value of the car.

But since you are proposing he unload the car on some poor sucker before the Carfax report catches up with him I can see why it does not worry you very much.

You must have missed all those pink lines in the pictures of the floorpan showing the damage & where it needs to get stretched back so they can remount the new rocker panel.

BTW the TL is just another car in a long series & nothing beloved to me.

jedblanks

You should have creamed the other side on the way home.

"I thought it was fine to drive, but I lost control and smashed the other side...damn..."

DaveW68

My advice to him all along was to keep and enjoy the car for a long time since it will probably be returned to pre-accident condition. I just echoed what other people here have said in that if he is going to get rid of the car, then better to do it sooner than later.

And yes, I did see the pink markings that the body shop drew on the car. But I still don't see any kind of damage that would entail stretching the car back into shape. I still believe the speed of the Toyota was under 10 mph at the moment of impact judging by the minimal side impact to the TL. Like I said earlier, I've seen worse damage done to a car by being backed into in a parking lot.