TwinTurbo335

I don't really see much stock TL getting into the 13s range. Most of the TL get into the low 14s to high 14s depending on the transmission. TL isn't really a fast car. People buy it for the luxury and sport

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I understand that each track is different, and same as the weather, and a lot of other factors. IMO, the most important one is driving skills. That's why I don't agree on using the 14.4s time from a new guy, I mean, it was just his first time out at the track.

So ET aside, like I've said, test results of the new Accord V6/TL-S so far vary quite a bit. C&D in March, for the Accord, obtained 14.2@102mph, 0-100mph in 13.6 (just about 1 second off the Evo And STi that they tested against the R32, and is 2.1 seconds faster than V6 6MT Altima Coupe, which traps at 99mph). That trap speed of the Accord is the same as what Edmunds got.

The TL-S isn't really heavy, in 6MT form, the curb weight is 3515lbs, that is actually lighter than G35 6MT (3583lbs) and IS350 (3600lbs). In fact, the TL-S is actually is lighter than both the TL 6MT (3521lbs) and the TL 6MT A-spec, which was 3543lbs. If you recall, the normal TL 6MT with crappy Turanza got 14.4@99mph, while the A-spec with nicer tires got 14.3@99mph. Now according to TOV, and a lot of members here (3rd gen forum), most stock 6MT TLs have around 220whp, while the 6MT TL-S has 257whp, or roughly 37whp increase. I remember you saying that around 25whp is all you need to break into the 100mph territory, and I think you are right, and that's in line with these numbers actually, that's why the new TL-S and Accord can trap at 101-102mph. Now then, hopefully I'm not making this too long, a few normal TL 6MT (again, heavier and less power/torque than a 6MT TL-S) have already broke into the 13's with street tires, been there, done that, so, I really don't see why you can't do that with the TL-S. For sure it's not as fast as the new G35/335i/IS350, but I think we should give credit for what it's capable of.

abuckfifd

Just for comparison purposes
My 02 max 6MT
stock
60' 2.3
1/4 14.19
mph99.32

Modded/on street tires, Slipping clutch
60' 2.1
1/4 13.2
mph 106.73

I see both sides point. 5.5gen auto runs good 1st thru 2nd gear, but falls off in 3rd due to the tall gearing. With my auto 4th gen my 1/8 would be right in line with a MT but 1/4 would be off by .6-.7 tenths along with mph. Heck, i could run 3rd gear from 68- 136mph. The TL seems to be better geared in my opinion for open road. Having said that, I would say Max wins 1/4, TL wins street and/or roll run. The driver will play a big part in this run!!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^Thanks for the info! All these J series and VQ cars are so close in terms of performance that each time the outcome can be different.

Manual Transmission

Sounds like that Dave_B guy was looking at the weight of the TL-S AUTO and making assumptions based on that. That's very wrong..... Very, very. I can't believe this guy doesn't understand there are weight differences between different trannys and yet he thinks he knows all about drag racing. This is like saying one black guy stole something so that means all black people steal? I don't think you are really stupid, but extremely ignorant. It's more of attitude. That is the problem.


iforyou, you have made good argumentation and your points are valid. By the way, the Normal 6MT TL should be the lightest, not the TL-S 6MT. Unless the '08 model has made weight reductions on the TL-S 6MT the Regular TL 6MT is the lightest. The extra displacement and I think the solid anti-roll bar is giving a tad bit more weight on the TL-S..... The TL-S 6MT is the second lightest in the group. The TL Type-S AUTO is the lame heaviest car in the group. Dave_B was looking at the TL-S AUTO in the magazine....


Another thing Dave_B doesn't understand is that the Acura/Honda makes up the speed and take the advantage in the high-end. The car will not accelerate the same way the Infiniti G35 and Nissan Maxima's do.

Manual Transmission

Very excellent posts. Would like to put all that in my signature but I think that exceeds the max # of characters.....

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I believed I also read somewhere that TL 6MT is 34xx, but somehow in C&D they posted it as 3521lbs, probably with fuel or something, I don't know. But yea, TL-S 6MT or TL 6MT, both are pretty much about the same weight, and are definitely not the heaviest TL, far from it. Btw, thanks for the support

It's kinda funny that this has been discussed so many times, and I keep bringing the same points back, over and over...but it's not working somehow...oh well, at least I enjoy the process...

lol Manual Transmission, may be you can edit those posts a bit and they MIGHT fit after

EL19

iTrader: (4)

spoken from a true Max Head! His 5.5 6MT is a beast he's also a pretty good driver tho...i dont thnk the average joe could do what he does in his car...ima see u guys at the track this weekend tho!

SatinSilverAV6

iTrader: (2)

Thats more rare for the 5.5 gen. On maxima.org I see more 14.8-14.9's at 93MPH for the autos. There are only a select few that have hit 14.6 stock which is fast for a auto. The 5.5 gen auto is still slower than the 6th gen Maxima 5AT from the fastest stock times that I have seen.

I would say though that its still a drivers race between the Auto TL-S and 5.5 gen but I would expect the TL-S to be pulling in the high end since it has better gearing and alot more WHP. TQ is similar and the Maxi weighs less. The 5AT 6th gen Maxima would be a better race up top since the gearing is much better than a 5.5 gen and the 6th gen weighs the same as a TL-S.

F23A4

I have posted this commentary previously: My old 2002 Maxima SE (4AT) could lay the hurt on my current car -- 07 Accord V6 5AT (and would only be close if the Maxima broke traction). Having driven the 04-06 TL 5AT numerous times, its acceleration is on par with my AV6. (...and several highway runs against them bear that out.)

Directly back on topic, I would pick the 3G TL-S over a stock 5.5G Maxima, as the numbers seem to be in the Acura's favor. But as was previously noted, it will NOT be a walk.

As far mods go, anything can happen. However, the 5.5G Maxima responds VERY well to mods (exc. CAI)....evidenced by several videos online showing it taking down 2G G35s and IS350s. ...and there have been a few monster 5.5Gs that represent well.

F23A4

There is a caveat with quoting mag times on VQ applications. It has been my experience (that of many other VQ owners and and observers) that fairly green VQs run fairly slow. Unfortunately, many mags test on such models. Be it the Altima, Murano, G35 or Z, they are notably quicker once broken in.

To wit, I am fairly certain that track accounts will show the Alti 3.5SE posting quicker numbers than its AV6 competition.

juruki

iTrader: (2)

Car and driver's 6MT 3rd Gen TL-S test:
0-60 5.5 seconds
1/4 mile 14.1@101MPH
Now theres only a couple guys that posted times with a 3rd gen TL-S because most of the other owners dont care to go to a track with a family sedan. Thats why the thread is so short...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I agree, like I've said (in like the 2nd post of this thread?), TL-S auto vs 5.5 gen Max AT will be pretty close, but the intake (as confirmed by F23A4) actually decreases output of the max, and like others have said, due to gearing, the TL-S should have the upper hand, still gonna be close though.

F23A4, isn't that the case for a lot of Honda engines too? From what I've seen at TOV, when they repeat dyno tests on some cars, the cars with more mileage seem to have about 5% gain in whp. And as for that Accord, I honestly believe if it had better tires (like many non-performance oriented hondas...), its 0-60, 1/4mile, and 0-100mph should be a few tenths better too. I believe the test driver was saying something like even at 2nd gear, finding traction is quite difficult.

Dave_B

How much weight do you think that auto has over the 6MT It's been my experience that autos are often time LIGHTER than their manual couterparts. This holds true for the JATCO 5AT used in the G35/350Z and the 4L60E used in the F-Body/Vette. On average, there is usually a 10lb to 30lb difference between auto and manual trannies. That is hardly a significant weight difference.

My God, if I had a dollar for everytime a Honda owner said this. Madd topend isn't going to win you 1/4 mile races. Power under the curve is what wins races. If you're car is sluggish from 0-70mph, but comes alive after that, sorry, it's too late in the 1/4 mile because 1/4 mile performance is dictated by the first 1/8 mile. The reason being you have very little time to make up the difference from 70mph to 100mph. For a car like a TL, Maxima, or G35, it takes around 9.0 to 9.5 seconds to complete the first 1/8 mile at a speed of around 73-77mph and about 5 seconds to complete the last 1/8 at around 94-100mph. See what I'm talking about?

As for the TL's madd topend, I don't see it at all when looking over the 1/4 mile slips and what I've personnally seen on the strip out of TLs and CLS'. Most car's will see about 19-20mph gained in the last 1/8. Car's with really strong topend will see 21mph-23mph and some top dogs like a single turbo Supras or Z06s will see massive a 25mph-28mph gain. The TL's do typically post 21-22mph gains in the last 1/8th, but so do most VQs. If I saw TLs posting really high MPHs in relation to their ETs, something like a 14.4@103mph with a 2.1 60', then I could see exceptional topend in the TL. But the reality is the TL 6MT will see 14.2-14.4s@98-99mph. That's solid, but far from earth shattering with regards to topend.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^hmm I believe you were the first to say the TL-S is the heaviest TL, so it's not gonna be faster than a normal TL. Now you are saying the difference is too small that it's negligible...please refer to post #39, or here is what you said before,

"The power is there. But the new TL-S is heavy and isn't making a whole lot more than before."

That's what you said in post #39. And I showed you that the TL-S in its 6MT form is actually lighter than a normal TL 6MT, and Manual Transmission was just saying that you probably got TL-S 5AT and TL-S 6MT confused. If you are still not convinced, here are the specs from www.acura.com (ignore the C&D weight if you want to)

2008 TL Base 5AT: 3623lb
2008 TL w/navi 5AT: 3636lb
2008 TL-S w/navi 5AT: 3674lb
2008 TL-S w/navi 6MT: 3559lb <-----that's the one we are talking about, and don't you agree that this is the lightest TL in the line up? Sorry, they don't make TL 6MT anymore, but if you want to compare, you can still use the C&D number from 2004, which was around 3520-3530lbs, in other words, there's only roughly 30lbs difference between TL 6MT and TL-S 6MT, and I will quote what you said above, "That is hardly a significant weight difference."

And yes, there is a big difference between TL-S 5AT and 6MT in weight, 3674 vs 3559, or 115lb of difference, don't you agree?

Power under the curve, honestly, head over to TOV, and check out the dyno sheets of TL/TL-S/CL-S, look at how flat the curves are. Besides, the TL, as I am sure you will agree, is limited by FWD traction, rather than not having enough torque at low end, and you don't even have to worry that much about low end since the gear ratios are close.

I think all, or most of us understand that the first 60ft is very important, and that's why a lot of us know that AWD cars like sti's and evo's are fast at the 1/4mile. And I'm sure a lot of us know that it's rather hard to catch up for the last 1/8 mile, unless you have some major power advantage.

What Manual transmission was referring to is not the explosive power that a K20 or F20/F22C has, but the fact that the torque curve goes up at a rather constant slight slope. You won't see many peaks in a J series torque curve. That's why the J32 in 2nd gen TL-S makes 232lbft of torque from 3500-5500rpm, while peak hp is at 260. Last gen G35 makes 260lbft and 260hp, but the torque curve falls down more rapidly than the J series after the torque peak. So, I guess a better way to say it is that, Honda/Acura is good at keeping the torque, but doesn't necessary mean it has a high peak torque, hopefully that makes sense.

F23A4

Which Honda engine are you referring to? This characteristic is very notable when it comes to the VQ.

As for the AV6's standard tires, they may not be Michelin Pilots but they are a far cry better than the Potenza RE92s that came equipped with the 02 Maxima.

ac5320

a very close friend of mine has a 6spd 5.5 max and we go at it often. I always lost to him by an just a little bit. He has an SRI, axle back ws2 where I was stock. I now have catback ws2 and icebox with xs headers coming in spring. i think I should be able to take him then. He always beat me off the line but id catch up to him in about 3rd gear and stay with him the rest of the way. if we are on the highway if i put the car in 3rd i usually pull away from him.

ac5320

last year at the track before any mods I did a 15.1 My first time ever at the track didnt reall know what i was doing or what i was suppoosed (like an idiot i kept my foot on the brake and then put ti on the gas instead of using both feet) that would have def got me under 15....plus it was like 94 degrees out

A site where you can enter in your time and and the temperature and it tells you what you would have run if the weather was a little cooler said i would have ran a 14.7 or something

EL19

iTrader: (4)

a 6spd 5.5 gen max should take the AUTO TLS every time...now i race this auto 5.5 gen max that has the same exact mods as me all the time....off the line it has much more torque than me and grabs the lead but since i always catch up to it and win...at the track the max ran 13.96 @ 99mph while my TLS ran 13.99 @ 101mph...thats both cars fully modded but my car weighs alot more than the max...bottom line is that the 3rd gen TLS WILL take the max in the race the OP stated

EL19

iTrader: (4)

i think he talkin about the J35 in the new accords??

EL19

iTrader: (4)

if ur friend were to get a full exhaust it would b curtains

dr_brains510

hey L,

you have an 07-08 TLS or 02-03?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

hmm, if I remember correctly, pretty much most of them, some gain more some gain less.

Here is an example of a J35 powered vehicle, the Ridgeline,

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-8.html

Zero to 60 mph:

New: 8.1 sec
40000 miles: 7.8 sec

Zero to 100 mph:

New: 24.3 sec
40000 miles:23.6 sec

Street start, 5-60 mph:

New: 8.5 sec
40000 miles:8.1 sec

Standing ¼ mile:

New: 16.4 sec @85 mph
40000 miles:16.1 sec @85 mph

Braking, 70-0 mph:

New: 195 ft
40000 miles: 180 ft

Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad:

New: 0.78g
40000 miles: 0.81g

from my understanding, at 40000 miles, the performance should have been degraded a bit since it has long passed the break-in period, and parts should be showing some wear. But in this case, there seems to be a vast improvement in most, if not all performance tests.

Also it's interested to see that for the Accord case, with 93 octane gas instead of 87, its whp goes up by about 10, which is ~5% gain too.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure Nissan is similar too, as shown in this link,

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-3.html

For instance, 0.1s faster to 60mph and 1/4 mile (not to mention 1 mph higher trap speed).

EL19

iTrader: (4)

03 TLS

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ whoa, that's pretty impressive for a 2nd gen! why don't you post your time at the 1/4 mile thread?

Go90go

My guess for the engine with miles getting better times is carbon buildup increasing compression slightly.

~Cheers~

jumbosizeme79

to me driving both, and red lining both, the maxixa felt slower in acceleration, maybe i just loke my tl-s to much xD

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Go90go, I guess that's true for some cars, but some others actually get slower after 40000 miles in those C&D tests.

EL19

iTrader: (4)

THANKS...i didnt even notice the quarter mile thread until like 2 days ago...ima goin to the tarck again sunday so id liek to post slips as well

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

awesome man! remember to record too so we can watch

Dave_B

But why are you using 2008 numbers for comparison? Everything I'm digging up on the net is showing the 04-06 TL 6MTs weighing in at 3,483lbs. That almost 100lbs lighter than the 07/08 TL-S 6MT.

According to this site and the 1/4 mile forum, modded TL-S' are seeing 97-99mph traps and those are apparently modified cars too. I'm not seeing 100mph+ traps yet.

On a sidenote, I find it comical that some "comfirmed" 1/4 runs include G-tech runs


I don't know what "TOV" is. I've heard people say that one TL-S has put down 256whp in this TOV which supposedly is quite a bit more than what the typical TL 6MT puts down. Do any other TL-S dynos exist yet?


HP is derived from TQ and the curves will always cross at 5252 in every single motor built, assuming said motor can rev that high. How long the torque curve is maintained is dictated by the car's breathing ability. Now while I haven't seen a new TL-S dyno, I've seen 3rd gen TL dynos and they're really not any different than that of the G/Z VQ35 in terms of shape. The TL motor makes peak power a couple hundred rpms higher, but the torque is quite a bit lower. The non-revup VQ35 has peak power occur at 6200-6300rpms and as a very slight power loss (about 10whp) before hitting the 6600rpm limiter. The 298-300hp Rev-up VQ's achieve peak power at 6500rpms and hold most of that power to the 7100rpm fuel cut which I believe is a higher peak rpm than that of the TL motor. One thing you have to keep in mind when comparing dyno plots is how it's scaled. A slight difference in scale will make one torque curve look a lot more linear than another.

Go90go

I hate G-Techs. According to those, I was putting out 220WHP in my 3-valve/cylinder A20. I was closer to 160 crank than anything else.

TOV is Temple of VTEC and it's an old Honda site. Been around for years but not too well known outside of Honda circles.

~Cheers~

P.S. I miss the old days of PureHonda...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Simple, www.acura.com only lists 2008 cars, and I thought official data is the most accurate. Otherwise, you can go ahead and refer back to Car and Driver's data, which shows TL-6MT as 3521lbs, and TL-S 6MT as 3515lbs.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-3.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...re+page-5.html

I've provided you with the links of those numbers. Who knows, may be one car had full tank of gas, while the other didn't?

Even if we use the 3483lbs figure for the TL 6MT, that's only 22lbs lighter than the 3515lbs of the TL-S 6MT, which according to you, is negligible.

You can also see the trap speeds of the TL and TL-S in those links I provided. Here is one more, for the a-spec model:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-2.html

Both TL and TL-aspec trap at 99mph, while the TL-S at 101mph.

TOV = Temple of Vtec

Here is the link to the dyno video of the TL-S 6MT:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=686783

It's actually 253whp, and yes you are correct, it does makes quite a lot more whp than a TL 6MT (222whp). Let's forget about the shape of the curve, and look at the actual numbers at different rpms, at less than 2000rpm, the TL-S is already making over 200wtq, and it maintains over 200wtq a bit pass 6500rpm. In other words, about 85-90% of max wtq is available from less than 2000rpm to over 6500rpm, from my understanding, that's definitely not bad. Now obviously it does not maintain the SAME amount of torque as the VQ engine since the peak hp of the VQ is higher.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

6th gen Maxima (I assume it's auto)
200whp, 220wtq stock
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/E...F692A5A123.htm

Altima V6 (I will assume it's auto again..)
193whp, 190wtq
http://www.f5air.com/images/dyno/ma2816.gif

Now to be fair, I also found a 04 Max AT dynoed at 221whp, but they dont have any picture to prove it.

02 Max Dyno (not sure if thats AT or MT)
http://polskieforum.com/showthread.php?t=2464
Seems like it's at around 190whp?

Here is a good post by a Nissan Maxima owner:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...ad_style=fancy

First he did a comparison between J30A1 accord and VQ30DE Max, and concluded that the J30A1 lacks serious torque at low rpm, while the VQ loses torque at high rpm. He also said how AT Max would upshift early, causing it to run 16's1/4mile, but with gate-shifting, it can be reduced to around 15.5s.

For the main topic however, is the VQ35DE, found in the Altima and 5.5 Maxima. He's saying that the 246lbft peak torque is underrated, as these engines are basically the same as the one found in the pathfinder, which Nissan claims to make 265lbft. He posted two dynos that prove that point and I have no problem believing him. However, he also admits that the 255 peak hp claimed by Nissan is a bit overrated. And he said that's the reason why thr CL-S 6MT is faster than the 5.5gen Max 6MT, the CL simply has higher peak power, more than enough to make up for the less torque. He also says that Maxima's wheels are rather heavy, at 48-52lbs, vs 46 of the CL-S, that's another reason why CL-S 6MT is faster than Max 6MT. By the way, if you are in doubt of what this guy has said, please note that he's an engineer, so I think he knows what he's saying.

At last, a few plots of TL dyno's.

6MT TL (note that the dip at 6200rpm is due to engine ECU, according to TOV, it should make a few more whp under norma condition):
222whp
http://www.vtec.net/articles/article...tldyno_tov.gif

5AT TL (this doesn't have the dip like the 6MT model):
212whp
http://www.vtec.net/articles/article...tl_5ATdyno.gif

Here's a good read about the 07 TL and TL-S:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=612494

Performance changes summary compared to previous models:
- higher capacity 5AT
- Quicker gear change in TL (even quicker in TL-S)
- 3.5L Type S engine is actually 15lbs lighter than 3.2L engine
- "Beefed up" RL's trans in Type S AT (MT gets stronger MT from old TL)
- Better clutch take-up so won't stall as easily
- Upgraded 5AT logic so now you can change between 1st and 2nd gear
- Engine can now rev to the redline in 1st gear (in my 2nd gen, I could only go to 6500, 400rpm shy of the redline) at full throttle
- 26% improvement in downshift time in the type S

There are more , but I thought the post is already long enough!

FiveLiterCheater

^^ You do know you can squeeze out those last 400 rpm's in sport shift right? If you shift right at 6,500, the delay will actually work in your play and shift at 6,800....but if you don't time it right you'll bounce off the limiter

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

hmm, not in 1st gear for the 2nd gen, unless I manually put the shifter into first gear. I think that's also true for the 04-06 3rd gen TL auto, but you can't force it to stay in first gear as you can't select that gear through the shifter.

FiveLiterCheater

Oh wait yeah I meant 2nd to 3rd, but if you launch in low gear you can redline 1st gear in the 3G

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Really? That's interesting, I guess each TL is kinda different? Because I goes to the 3G TL forum a lot and those people always complain how they can redline in 1st gear with 5AT, may be because the floor mats are too thick?

dr_brains510

with the TLS, if you put it to low gear, it'll redline and change to 2nd gear automatically...you can go up to 60-70 mph on 2nd gear