Hi Guys and Gals,
I've heard some rumors that Acura will implement SH-AWD to 4G TL which is scheduled for 2008.
Any comments?

 

major redesign will be 08... yes.

although... this TL is soooo successful they may juice it. which would actually be a good thing so long as its still on top in 08.

sh-awd... i hope

 

i think if they do all wheel drive SH to TL it would destroy the selling of the RL.

 

All TL competitors (Audi, BMW,Mercedes) offer 4WD hence for Acura to stay on the top is mandatory to switch from FWD to AWD.

 

I concur....

 

Honda/Acura is on a 5-year cycle. That means the next TL will come out in Fall of 2008 as a 2009 model. I fully expect it will have AWD as Acura wants to eventually put AWD on all its cars in an effort to further distinguish Acura from Honda. Some people think Acura will put AWD on the current TL as early as 2006. I seriously doubt that'll happen. First of all, they don't need it. The car is breaking sales records so why should Acura go out of its way to add something to the car? If the TL were struggling, then it would make sense for Acura to go the extra mile and put AWD on it. It's clearly what they had to do to make people notice the RL. But Acura is in a great position with the TL. There's no sense of urgency to add AWD. So they can save it for the next version. Another reason why I think Acura is going to wait is to give the RL some time in the limelight. The car needs to make a name for itself and if Acura puts AWD on the TL too soon, that will only hurt the RL. If an AWD TL with 300 hp came out next year, who would buy the RL? It's not that big, it's nearly 50K, and it would have the same engine and layout as the TL, which looks a lot better.

 

AWD is so old hat. And usually only a small percentage of of any particular car model that sells in the AWD format. Given that some cars only come in AWD.. But you don't see many G35's with AWD, or BMW's. I don't think it is that much a threat. Performance wise (often slower), and maintenance wise ($$$), AWD isn't the Golden Halo that some make it out to be. It absolutely has it's pluses. But looking at Acura over the long haul, they seem to like to be liking to lead with implenting technology rather than following, especially with technology oriented things. They also don't seem to be historically for specialty models. So despite the fact that their is an AWD Accord in the works. I would not be surprised at all if the TL doesn't show up in AWD.

If it was around today, I would have chosen to save the $2k to $4k more it would have costed for that model. Of course it would be welcome in the colder belts especially Canada. However, I'd bet it would be more likely that it actually shows up as a RWD model than a AWD.

Also with today's higher fuel prices, I think we are coming to an end of an era of horsepower wars, and we will see the emphasis return to fuel economy, even with cars such as the Acura. So I imagine the 08 will have some cool wiz bang features. Perhaps even a hybrid thrown in. Just hopefully they will do away for once and all with the arcahic tape drive. I look at that tape drive and think, some day this will be a novelty item, a car with both navigation and a tape deck!!

If the Acura TL continues to be a major seller in 07, I wouldn't even be surprised if they squeeze an extra model year out of the 3rd Gen.

Well that's my

 

that would be awesome, the new TL looks so great, i can only imagine what the enxt model will look like, it will either be very good looking, or very ugly, the SH-AWD would be a great improvment on the TL, the TL owns all

 

They might not put AWD on the TL by 2006, but they will have to do something to keep the edge they have right now. Acura stole away alot of business from Infiniti, Lexus, BMW and other makes with the introduction of the 3G TL. Now Acura is going to take those hits back when Lexus releases the new IS/GS and Infiniti keeps coming back with a better G35 every year. I hope they do something soon to keep the car exciting. I think it will cause problems if they wait to long before making it interesting again. That was the problem before with Acura. Body style and design get old real fast these days.

 

I think it will cause problems if they wait to long before making it interesting again. That was the problem before with Acura. Body style and design get old real fast these days.

I disagree with you somewhat. If you update the car to fast. It hurts resell value of the model line. The car's with the best resell, do very little tinkering. I'd prefer that Acura keep to making minor alterations with a mild mid model life makeover.

 

I hope 4GTL would have SH-AWD version 2, more reliable and stable, and the power could be shifted to two front wheels individually.

 

It is tough to wring more performance out of a car that size. Are people expecting a 3600 or so pound sedan to do 0-60 in under 5 seconds ? You do hit the point of diminishing returns as some point or driveline breakage. I do see hp edging up if trends continue. Maybe they will dump the 3.2 for the 3.5

Hell if there are any energy supply shocks maybe you will see the last of the 270 hpTL and end up with a hybrid. All wheel drive systems are ok, but they definitely take away from the driving experience depending on when they engage... And add to the cost of the vehicle...

 

Tough to get performance out of the car because it weighs 3600 pounds?? Um weight is not the issue with the TL, the engine is. Don't get me wrong I love the car when it is in the VTEC range, but down low this thing is a slug. If Honda/Acura were to mate this car with a turbo/supercharger it would make the car a serious performance machine.

On another note the hybrid layout of the Accord actually resolves the low end sluggishness that has plagued EVERY VTEC engine ever produced (including NSX). Iif you read the review of the hybrid accord, the reviewer notes that the car has plenty of punch down low for around town driving. This is due to the hybrid setup which yields an additional 100lb/ft of torque which is available from 1200 rpm on up (not 5000 rpm + as in the TL).

I don't want more horsepower in the next TL.....GASP...I want more TORQUE and I want it in the slug band rpm range (1000 - 5500)!! Horsepower numbers may sell cars, but torque is what people equate with performance!!

I think that with the appropriate engineering Honda/Acura could make the TL a serious performance car, while at the same time retain all of the luxuries that have made it a top seller. For those stating that the TL is not a performance car, simply look at Lexus and Infiniti with the IS300, and G35 respectively. THEY understand that the target market wants sport/performance AND luxury/practicality.

I mean we didn't buy our TL's simply because of looks.....or maybe some of you did!?

 

Because of the torque it had at 3500rpms.

And the worst tranny.. When acura has a better transmission they will be able to add more low end torque. Until then you will continue to see what you saw in 04.

The power curve in the car changed so the torque was delivered later in the RPM range than any other v6. I was the earliest in 03.

238 ft pound is still weak for this car since it should have more...

 

oh yeah my other car is a G, much more torque, and you do no have to flog the hell out of it to get it rolling...

 

99 tl 225 HP 216 ft/lbs torque @ 4400 RPMs
01 Cl S 260 HP 232 ft/lbs torque @ 3500 RPMs
04 TL 270 HP 238 ft/lbs torque @ 5000 RPMs

I want more power...!

 

The G35 has 270 ftlb of torque, that's only 13% more than the TL's 238.

 

13.44% and a littler earlier in the power band... 4800

when the 01 S came out it only had 7.40 % more torque than the 99/00TL.. but it was there @3500RPMs and not 4400... Vtec came on about 4K

So the power increase % of the g over the tl is almost double that of what the CL P vs S was.

In 4 years acura has only had a 2.58 % increase in torque and went from 3500 RPMs to 5000RPMs.

 

And think about it like money.. If you got a 2.58 % increase in your paycheck you would think ok... big deal...

But, if you got a 13.44% increase in your paycheck it would change some things in your life...lol

 

Even Acura has to give way to changes in the marketplace. If enough people demand AWD and start passing on the TL because it doesn't have AWD, then Acura will have no choice but to add it. Acura can't put this off much longer. AWD is becoming more common. When a Ford family sedan offers it, that's when you know AWD has caught on.

 

13.44% hardly qualifies for "much more" in my definition of the term.

I ride a Honda VF500F motorcycle that weight wet ~430lb has 68HP, when I rode a friend's Yamaha YFZ-R1 with ~140HP (and similar weight), that qualifies for "much more" power in my definition.

As well as "OH MY GOD" and "JESUSSSS CHRISSSST" when I twisted open the throttle in 2nd gear. Power conrupts.

 

I need to spell-check more often also!

 

well I prefer seat of the pants than someone's definition of terms and just pointing out that acura is having its issues with being able to respond to the market. When the 260 Hp 3.2 came out with 232 ft pounds of torque... the other car makers were 25 ft pounds behind and about 40 ponies. BMW came out with the 3.0

4 years later even lexus has more torque with its 225 HP 3.3 240ft pounds at 3600RPMs...
the 3.5 vq puts out more... etc. etc.

Point is ... where is acura in all this... Their 4cyl engines are great but no torque, the 3.5 made it to the 10 best list, but only since it has 300HP.. the RL was not rated that well in consumers... The 3.2 was not even mentioned. I want something better... !!!

 

Where Honda/Acura is in all this? They are widely considered within the automobile industry (this includes SAE and most of the industry journals and magazines not consumer automobile magazine) to be the best engine manufacturer in the world, second to none.

This is a far-flung term but applies to engine design, power output, efficiency, emissions, cost, size, reliability,.... . The vast majority of auto manufacturers admire their innovation and product design.

 

Another thing to consider is that Acura announced it would bring to market a hybrid that is geared for performance.

The current TL is great but things will be heating up soon as some of you have said. There will be on going changes. Now the RL will add some new stuff year after year to move it away from the TL. If and I mean If Acura were to offer SH-AWD it would be in a performance model as the hp may be close to 300. To keep it from killing the RL, I'd expect the ride to not be as "smooth" as it is now. Of the RL owners I've seen around Wichita, I don't think performance was apart of their purchasing decision.

 

With More Torque And Hp The New G35 Is As Quick As Ever. The Coupe Has 298 Hp And The Sedan 280 With Awd.this Is A Tough Choice, My 2002 Tls Lease Is Up This Month And I Love The New Tl.by Far The New Tl Looks Better Than The G35 Sedan, But I Wish The Tl Had More Torque And Awd. I Need 4 Doors And The Traction Of Front Wheel Drive,so The G35 Coupe Is Not An Option, But Lets Face It The G35 Coupe With Is Body Style And 298 Hp Puts The New Tl To Shame.

 

Well I prefer to look at Ward's... the VQ is the gold standard for production automobiles not the honda..

Ward's quote

Nissan’s VQ V-6 for North America now displaces 3.5L, but has sacrificed little of its superb engineering, build quality and driveability attributes. Powertrain developers the world over almost invariably still name Nissan’s VQ V-6 as the single most benchmarked engine in V-6 development programs. It’s remarkable that more than 11 years after its introduction, the VQ remains atop the heap.

Judges continue to be enthralled with the VQ’s thunderous power and torque, and Nissan engineers have a curious talent for perpetually upping the ante with the VQ’s output – or displacement – just when the competition begins to creep close. And despite the startling power now being generated by Nissan’s 3.5L V-6 in several of its multifarious states of tune, the VQ’s sophistication and driveability remain.

End Quote

The 3.5 RL engine was mentioned but where is the 3.2....

 

Honda may be one of the worlds best engine makers, but if they keep attaching them to crappy automatic trannies, it won't matter much.... I think it would be good for Honda to go SH-AWD with the TL. But I think they better make sure the tranny is up to the task. Especially if it gets the 3.5 RL engine.

 

The Nissan V6 is a very fine engine and deserves to be there, but overall Honda produces a great product line of 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines used in a fairly broad range of applications. The only criticism they deserve is their stuborn attitude toward developing a V8.

Again , everyone has their opinion but Bob Lutz of GM and Carlos Ghosn of Nissan differ from your's in being complementory toward the engine design at Honda.

In the book "Comeback, The Fall and Rise of Detroit", there is a section in it that discusses the group within GM who used to reverse engineer competitor's products. The VP in charge of that group was also a great admirer of the Honda Civic engine and put together a short film showing how the superior design of Honda's connecting rod in that engine made the rest of the engine and eventually car great. That VP was also the technical lead on the original Camaro Z28 and was respected within GM.

 

Agreed, one of the reasons I choose the 6MT was not getting the 5AT. A former colleague has a 2002 TL-Type S and had his transmission fail as well another friend's CL. Honda's solution/response to their transmission problems in the Accord/TL/Oddysey has been poor.

 

lol the 3.2 was not even considered... I like the engine do not get me wrong... but they need to do better regardless of what you have to say about honda. Nissan countered the 3.2 with the 3.5.... Power train issues have prevented the 3.2 from gaining any more torque or retaining its lower end torque when compared to other normally aspirated v6s..

I am waiting to see what they do next...

 

as ive said before in a previous thread ... here's my prediction. the new TL will be a hybrid with SH-AWD. the configuration will be as follows: an iteration of the 3.2 V6 will be used to power the rear wheels while the electric engine, which powers the front wheels, is triggered when traction is lost. i think the engineering is already there -- the hybrid Accord, throttle by wire technology, the SH-AWD RL, Honda just has to put it together!! ...

and so what happens to the RL you say, oh well, Honda might just have to engineer a whole new 8 cylinder engine!

THIS WAY, WE GET THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!!

 

I'm sure that the electric engine is going to provide the power to the rear wheels, not the front wheels.

 

forget AWD, i'm for RWD, and the power is just perfect for me, but i really dont care if it is FWD car, i still love it

 

The RL's tranny is based off of the MDX's correct? So were did Honda go wrong with the TL, CL, and Accord tranny? I had an '02 TL non-S and was lucky with my tranny. I was lucky with my '04. My dealer looked at it and said there were no problems.

So why couldn't Honda use the MDX/RL tranny for TL's?

 

Honda will never move to RWD! They are too arrogant, and stubborn to do so at this late stage of the game. Personally I think it is a pride thing as they have been bucking the industry trend of RWD for many many years. For them to make the switch now would be seen as conformity by many (a trait which Honda does not have).

I do like the TL, but I feel it would be a SIGNIFICANTLY better car with a RWD layout. The weight distribution would be equalized, the performance improved, the fun factor increased, and FOR ONCE the reviewers could REALLY TRULY compare it to a BMW. Almost every review of the TL mentions that it would be better with a RWD layout......Honda are you listening??

 

Acura is known for being an Acura. My dad is looking at a getting a new car He's probaly going to get a new tl, we test drove a g35 and what ACura does not have in the rwd or the awd it makes up for in other areas, Everything else about the car is better. The acura tl is a family sedan that offers a little of everything, The RL is for the awd. I dont want Acura rushing into putting a awd into the tl. This will only cause problems, let it happen naturally wiht the buyers market!!!!!!!!

 

I would pefer if acura made a sports sedan and a serious RWD sport coupe... Something that is meant for driving and not general use... Sure acura is better than the former gold standard for sports sedans (the maxima) at a price. But I would want something better than what hey currently offer. And I wouldn't mind of the sports couple was more expensive and made better !!

 

I went to the Acura dealership a week ago to check out the MDX for my dad. The manager there told me that the TL will probably not get AWD due to the fact that it will compete against the RL and decline it sales. The guy also said that's there's no market for an AWD TL. However they will put AWD on the TSX so it can compete against the Audi A4, Infiniti G35X and the BMW 3 Series. I'm in Canada though don't know if it's the same for the US.

 

The dealership manager you spoke with likely has no factual basis for his statements. He was just spouting his opinion. Honda/Acura just doesn't share this type of information prior to their schedule; even with their dealership's GMs. Remember that the manager is trying to do only one thing; sell the cars that he has access to now at the greatest possible price.

Will Honda/Acura add AWD to the 4G TL? Only if their near term business plan and cost/benefit analysis say that they should. Personally, I feel that Honda/Acura is considering an AWD TL (hopefully with rear-wheel electric motors), but there are a myriad of variables that will affect the decision.

What if gas prices end up at $4 a gallon in late 2007? Will Honda/Acura want to take the mpg hit?

What if the US economy enters a recession? Will Honda/Acura want to add additional cost to a car already in the low 30K range?

What if 3G TL sales are still through the roof? Will Honda/Acura feel it necessary to up-content an already successful model?