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2006 Acura TL timing question, how messed up is this
Good evening,
Need help! I replaced the water pump and timing belt on 2006 TL and had the timing all set properly with new belt in position. I went to turn the crank over 2 full turns to check my timing marks but forgot to pull the pin on the tensioner so now the timing is all out of whack! ! UGH!! How screwed am I? Is this something I can easily fix. I have the tools and know how but not sure where to begin, have been watching many videos to try to understand but not exactly sure next steps and still questions. Any assistance is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. RC
Thank you. I have watched quite a few videos and will check this out. I contacted a local shop for help and they quotes $850 which I thought was a bit much but that is also putting everything back together. Thanks.
seems the problem I am having is the when I go to turn the cam they are spring loaded and won't set right. I read in another video that the crank needs to be 30 degrees out and they will move to correct spot, not sure if that is true but going to give it a try. Thanks
Good evening,
Need help! I replaced the water pump and timing belt on 2006 TL and had the timing all set properly with new belt in position.
I went to turn the crank over 2 full turns to check my timing marks but forgot to pull the pin on the tensioner so now the timing is all out of whack!
So, just to clarify, even though you properly set the timing, with the new belt installed over all pullies & forgot to pull the tensioner pin, when you went to turn the crank 2 full turns, did you audibly hear or physically feel or visually see the timing belt actually 'SKIP' somewhere on the crank or cam pullies, as a result, causing the timing to be '...out of whack!'???
So, just to clarify, even though you properly set the timing, with the new belt installed over all pullies & forgot to pull the tensioner pin, when you went to turn the crank 2 full turns, did you audibly hear or physically feel or visually see the timing belt actually 'SKIP' somewhere on the crank or cam pullies, as a result, causing the timing to be '...out of whack!'???
yes I can see the actual marks I made on the belt before turning the crank are now not lining up to the marks I made on the cams or crank pull is
The cam pulleys cams can safely jump between 12 and 3 o’clock and between 9 and 12 o’clock without the valves touching. You can move the cams back to the marks with a long wrench. This is how you correct when the cam pulleys jump forward or backwards after you remove the belt. As long the crankshaft is lining up with the mark this is how you correct it.
Timing
Remember the crank moves 2x for each revolution of the cams. If your belt skipped a lot of teeth, you can no longer line up the 3 marks and assume the engine will be in correct time. For example the cams could be 180 degrees off because you advanced a revolution on the crank.
I did a lot of reading before doing my timing belt and vaguely remember someone with a similar problem. I think they removed a spark plug to visually verify a given cylinder was were it was supposed to be and not where it would be if the cam were 180 degrees off.
You may want to repost in the DIY Timing belt mega thread. That thread has many members with lots of timing belt experience. When you post on that thread, all those members get email alerts.
Holding cams in position
This problem is easier. I remember there was a sweet spot of around 7 degrees where the cam would stay in place. If you are still having trouble keeping the cam in place, I remember someone selling a tool to immobilize the cams. It was not cheap, so I remember improvising a tool from two ratchets, 2 sockets, and some zip ties. I did not need the tool as the cams mostly stayed in place.
yes I can see the actual marks I made on the belt before turning the crank are now not lining up to the marks I made on the cams or crank pull is
I just reread your reply to Zeta. To confirm, you think your belt skipped teeth because the "marks made on the belt" no longer align with the cam and crank marks?
Does that mean that the timing marks on the cams and crank still align?
This poster seems to have had a similar problem. The marks on the belt will not align with the marks on the cams and crank after 2 revolutions of the crank.
If, after turning the crank 2x, the timing marks on the cams matched the notches on the engine while your crank was at the triangle, there is a good chance you did not skip teeth.
^
Theoretically, there is an alternative if one really skips a lot of teeth and just can't determine(out of panic OR exhaustion) how out of 'whack' the camshaft & crankshaft marks are in relation to each other; however, it requires more work for piece of mind.
The process below could be tried, if one already has both the valve covers removed, to perform a valve adjustment after TB replacement (my preference at this time), and the unfortunate case arises where the timing marks get out of alignment due to forgetting to install the crank TB drive pulley 'key' or the 'skipping' of teeth while the belt is installed.
1) Loosen the camshaft holder bolts enough (front & rear head), on both the intake & exhaust rocker shafts (don't remove).
This will allow the valve springs to retract all the intake & exhaust valves UP to the top of the cylinder head, thus moving them out of the path of the pistons.
2) Once that is accomplished & one can visually see the valve springs have fully retracted all valves up (both heads), you can rotate the crank to realign the crank & case timing marks.
#1 cylinder TDC can be verified further by inserting something long into the #1 cylinder and watch it rise as the piston moves up, in relation to the crank & case marks reaching their alignment marks. (spark plugs should be removed, IMHO, anytime TB replacement is performed, it just makes the job easier )
3) Then, return back to the front & rear cylinder heads and carefully realign / turn the cam pullies, one at a time, to their respective TDC marks on the heads.
a. Somehow manage, preferably with an extra set of hands, to hold each camshaft pulley in proper alignment while one tightens down slowly (two turns at a time to prevent binding on the valves) the camshaft holder bolts (17lbf-ft) on both the intake & exhaust rocker shafts following the sequence below.
4) Now the engine (camshafts & crankshaft) is back in time, the TB can be carefully reinstalled.
5) Once satisfied with TB installation, pull the tensioner pin & bar the engine over clockwise (just make sure the TB drive pulley key is installed) six or more times to allow the TB to rotate into position & check timing.
Thank you all for responding and I appreciate all the help and insight. I am just getting back from being out of town and going to get back at this and see if I can figure it out.
Right now I have the belt off and I moved the crank about 30 degrees off TDC. I can turn the forward sprocket back to #1 mark on the sprocket to align correctly.If I can get the rear pocket to align correctly would it be aligned correctly? @redbeard1 reading your reply is there a way I can check to make sure I am aligned at this point? Put a dowel rod in each cylinder to check for TDC? Which cylinder would I check? The posted diagram above is a bit blurry. Thanks you everyone for the help. Also if I can get the cam sprockets and crank aligned, put on the belt and turn everything 2 revs and the marks align it should be good to go or still possible 180 degrees put? Anyway to know that?
I just reread your reply to Zeta. To confirm, you think your belt skipped teeth because the "marks made on the belt" no longer align with the cam and crank marks?
Does that mean that the timing marks on the cams and crank still align?
After you turned the crank 2x, did the marks on the cams and crank align with their respective marks on the engine?
Hi @redbeard1 no, the marks did not align. I heard a noise as I started turning the crank and saw the pin still in the tensioner. I pulled the pin in hopes that nothing was "off" no teeth skipped but I think it definitely skipped a few teeth maybe, no idea if it was 1 tooth or more. I then turned the crank another full rotation to get the marks I put on the belt back to starting position but they were "off" but at least an inch or more. I now have the belt removed so I don't have exact measurements of how far off the marks were. I want to be able to realign the cam sprockets and the crank then try again if that is possible without any damage. Is there a way to verify TDC before I try rotating with the belt installed and all 3 aligned? Thanks!
Thanks @VictorTL OK, so looking at the photo you provided if I set my cam sprockets and crank then check cylinder 1 and 5 with a dowel and they are in TDC per the photo I can install TB and should be good to go?
Thanks in advance.
I then turned the crank another full rotation to get the marks I put on the belt back to starting position but they were "off" but at least an inch or more.
From what I remember, the marks on the belt are only used to ensure you do not skip a tooth when putting on the belt. Once you turn the crank, the marks on the belt are no longer useful for anything regarding the timing. After turning the crank 2x, if the marks on the cams and crank no longer matched their respective marks on the engine, then the belt skipped teeth.
Originally Posted by rscone11
I want to be able to realign the cam sprockets and the crank then try again if that is possible without any damage. Is there a way to verify TDC before I try rotating with the belt installed and all 3 aligned? Thanks!
Firstly, you need to find out if you can safely reverse the crank (you mentioned earlier you advanced the crank 30 degrees with the belt off). Although I'm not 100% sure, I don't think you can simply advance the crank (without the belt) the remaining 330 degrees without hitting valves.
The only 100% safe method seems to be what zeta wrote. But, that method is lots of work. As you probably know, moving the cams (controls position of valves) or crank (controls position of pistons) without the belt creates the chance that valves will hit piston. I assume you read somewhere that moving the crank 30 degrees was safe. Now the question is can you reverse the 30 degrees (not sure if engine is designed to safely rotate backwards, nor even sure it can physically be done as the crank bolt may just loosen) or will you need to go forward another 330 degrees (which I think is not safe unless you use zeta's method).
Right now if your crankshaft sprocket is at the mark and your piston #1 should be at TDC AND your rear & front camshaft timing mark are somewhere between 9 and 3 (9, 10, 11, 12, 1, 2, & 3) o’clock you could safely move the camshaft to 12 o’clock (timing mark) position. If the belt is on make sure the belt is removed before doing this and put the belt back on after all the timing marks are lined up. Very easy.
Thanks @VictorTL@redbeard1@zeta I didn't get to this yesterday, had a long weekend after the holiday and no time for mechanic work. My plan today... I have the front cam sprocket aligned on #1 of the sprocket by turning back with long rachet and 14 m socket. I am going to try the rear sprocket alignment to desired mark and then the crank alignment to TDC. Belt is not on obviously. Then I am going to remove the plugs and check for TDC in cylinder #1 and cylinder #5. I will report back my findings once completed.
One last question. If I can align correctly do I still nee to worry about the spring loads on the cam sprockets or is that not an issue if by chance not many teeth were skipped. I do not have the cam covers off at this point. Just hoping that if I can verify TDC in #1 and 5 cylinder with all 3 aligned marks I can add the belt, pull the tensioner and begin rotating for 2 turns to then check alignment?
UPDATE----
All good. I reset the sprockets to correct marks turning counter clockwise, rear one sprung back once but 2nd try and it was spot on. Lined up crank mark to TDC. Checked the #1 and #5 pistons with a dowel, they were at TDC. Put on the TB and all the other parts. I hope set crank bolt tight enough. What should the crank bolt torque be? Started right up first try, no issues. Added coolant and power steering fluid and took a short drive to the mailbox!
Sounds like it did before I took it apart. Thanks for all responses and help. No shop needed! Saved $850 which is what shop quoted me. Who knows what the final bill would have been.
When you put marks on the timing belt in relation to all the sprockets, after initial installation it takes something like 2-300 hundred crank revolutions in order to get all hand made marks to line back up with all the sprockets. Which is why that's not the best practice to go by.
Crank bolt is 45 lb-ft, plus an additional 60* turn.
Orrrrrr since I don't have an angle-type torque wrench, 100 lb-ft's sounds like enough to me.
I remember my old Prelude's was 160 or 180lb-ft absurd
Last edited by twokexlv6coupe; 07-08-2024 at 01:18 PM.
Thanks for all the advice.
I do want to recommend the 19mm extra thick socket to remove the crank bolt. I tried with breaker bars but no success, that bugger was on there.
Link here.-
Hi @redbeard1 , I rotated crank backwards to TDC, 30 degrees isn't far . I watched a video on YT, Eric the car guy working on a Honda V6 and he mentioned the 30 degree forward tip.
07-05-2024, 07:42 PM
) how out of 'whack' the camshaft & crankshaft marks are in relation to each other; however, it requires more work for piece of mind.
