The "optional" aluminum heads in the 1969 L78 396 Chevelle made NO MORE POWER than their iron counterparts and may, in fact, have made LESS since they transfered more heat energy out of the combustion chamber (thereby lowering peak cylinder pressures).

 

Wow, this thread has degregated into yet another 1le diatribe...

The cow methane was debunked and the 10 million spent on it considered a waste, some researchers couldn't figure out how to mount that LS1 onto a cow to cure it of all it's gas considering it was the government that rated it so high in the first place, so they gave up. :think:

Ahhhh well, another thread gone to cow heaven...

I digress, where was I? Oh yeah, an Acura forum, I couldn't tell anymore.... :banghead:

 

I am probably the cheapest SOB on this board and I bought one instead of the Accord. My reasons were engine, 6sp manual in a 4 door, better handling, bigger interior (measurement do not mean much when you sit in a car). I could care less about bluetooth, XM etc as I do not use them.

However, I agree that an Accord is a very good car and well worth the money. BUT a frugal person would buy a Malibu and save a lot more money.

 

From what I hear, the biggest thing the LSD adds is HUGE torque steer.

"Torque to weight" doesn't matter; if it did then the Honda S2000 wouldn't be able to get out of its own way.

A ~ $200 aftermarket conical air filter/tube will give me that 15 HP.

 

Earth calling, it isn't 1969 anymore, in case you haven't noticed time has moved on. :yack:

 

Malibus plumment like stones in terms of resale value...

You have to factor that in.

 

To what...he already trolls in every forum known to man.

 

But you said that 1969 396 Chevelles made "335 RWHP."

They didn't make anything CLOSE to that - regardless of WHAT factory head they came with.

 

Just admit you were wrong, that you overstated the impact of weight, and avoid the desire to change the subject to postpone the inevitable.

This is why nobody here cares what you say. You don't listen. You just continue on the same, tired diatribes.

Of course, you couldn't add a $200 aftermarket conical air filter/tube to the TL, right?

And my post included both hp to weight and torque to weight, no?

 

1) HALF of the TL's small advantage in HP is eaten up by its additional WEIGHT. After all is said and done, the TL has a whole extra 15 HP, spread over 3,550 pounds. WOW!!

2) The TL supposedly comes with a "performance" air filter set-up and a low restriction exhaust system. The Accord has a more restrictive air box and exhaust system. Hence, simple bolt-ons to the Accord (air filter ste-up and cat back exhaust system) should yield a LARGER net gain.

3) The LSD that you keep hyping appears to do as much harm (in terms of added torque steer) as it does good. The far less expensive '04 Neon SRT-4 has an LSD and that doesn't exhibit that level of torque steer (despite having a significantly higher power:weight ratio).

 

You're joking of course. This thread is 15 pages long because he never admits he's wrong.

 

I'm wrong...

The TL has a net advantage of 15.6 HP...spread over 3,550 pounds. That's probably 12 HP by the time it gets to the pavement. :smokin:

So yes, the TL does in fact have a MASSIVE Horsepower advantage.

 

I never said it was a signficant difference, as you well know.

All I said was your "largely offset" statement was crap. You apparently do not disagree since you have not repeated it and have not challenged my conclusions, other than with your usual infantile sniping.

As for the filter, why don't you do a search on this site and take a look at the kind of numbers that people are getting. Easily 12 hp. IIRC.

The TL does not have a low-restriction exhaust, despite whatever marketing hype you may have read. There are plenty of gains to be made there, and with a filter.

As for my 'hyping' of the LSD, better look again. I mentioned it twice in one post. Don't believe the hype.

And try a net advantage of 22.3 hp. spread over 3482 pounds.

You like to pretend the 6MT doesn't exist. Surely you are aware of the differences in 0-60 and quarter mile times between your Accord and a 6MT TL?

 

6 speed to 6 speed means comparing the 6 speed Accord COUPE to the TL 6 speed. I've seem 98 - 99 MPH trap speeds for bone stock 6 speed Accord V6 coupes.

"Largely offset" doesn't seem off when we're talking about ~ 50%.

Acura hypes the TL's exhaust system and even mentions how it's mandrel bent...It also has a less restrictive air box....

So, there is LESS to be gained in the TL than there is to be gained in the Accord in terms of airboxes and cat back exhaust systems...

~ 12 drivewheel HP delta (after adjusting for the differences in curb weight)...WOW!:wow:

I'd actually be impressed if we were discussing riding lawnmowers.

And I have a 6 speed car in my garage...It will SMOKE the 6 speed TL...So I'll drive that when I want to race a 6 speed TL.

 

This Accord V6/6 speed coupe trapped @ 14.54 sec @ 98.04 - bone stock.

The ET is a tad higher than some 6 speed TL tests due to the Accord's lack of the LSD. The trap speed is fully competitive. So it's a driver's race between those two cars after the first ~ 30 feet.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rd/index4.html

 

Despite your blanket statement to the contrary, it is perfectly legitimate to compare a TL 6MT SEDAN to an Accord SEDAN. The Coupe comparison is more strained, IMHO, since we are talking about an entirely different category of automobiles. In any event, the idea that there is only 'one' correct comparison is symptomatic of your problem.

I was waiting for you to try to justify the "largely offset" statement by appealing to its ambiguity. Largely implies a difference greater than 50 %, and the weight offset is about 1/3 when you look at the 6MT. Even at 50%, largely doesn't seem quite right. Partially sounds better, no? How about 'somewhat'? There is a difference.

I'm surprised you could resist the urge to talk about riding lawnmowers. Surely with a little more time you can google us something nice and irrelevant?

So, you believe Acura marketing when it comes to the airbox and exhaust, but apparently choose not to believe it with respect to the other positive aspects of the TL. I am shocked.

Again with the Camaro. Do you think anybody is re-thinking their TL purchase because your Camaro is faster? I doubt it.

 

"Largely" is a non-definitive, subjective statement.

You going to take me to take over 50% vs 51%?

People will cross shop 6 speed to 6 speed; many 6 speed TL owners will rarely have people in the back seats anyway....And the Accord Coupe's bacl seat is pretty decent.

I've been under the Accord V6 and the TL; the TL has a different exhaust system.

You reference "google;" which implies that you don't believe the median household income figures I've cited.

Try the IRS's and the Federal Reserve's website...

 

How does my reference to google imply anything related to the separate argument you are having with others on this site, albeit in this thread, about millionaires and median household income. I was speaking of your general tendency to pepper your threads with link after link, and then repeat that post ad nauseum.

At least try to keep your arguments straight.

BTW, here is what webster says about 'largely'

Main Entry: large·ly
Pronunciation: 'lärj-lE
Function: adverb
: in a large manner; especially : to a large extent : MOSTLY, PRIMARILY

Do you see your error now?

 

brahtw8,

He will not see his error, as error prone as he is he will ignore his error, repeat the error then regurgitate it thus repeating the error ad nauseum infiniti... uh, yeah that's it....

 

I know.

Call it a metaphor. A microcosm of our own struggle against the absurd, as ultimately represented in our mortality.

I think it has brought the rest of us together. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that. If only Silver and the boys could stop fighting, we might actually have a community here that could do something useful.

 

Like hit Union Grove or Byron at the end of March? Norse is that still on?

Mike

 

I should be able to make that. I don't think I am going to bring the TL.

 

The links are to valid sources (e.g. HOT ROD, etc).

Most people on here make claims that are wholly lacking in references of any sort.

Examples:

- Stock 1969 396 Chevelles made "335 RWHP" (along with the implication that the aluminum version of the same damn head would produce quantifiably more power).

- The median household income in the U.S. is $17,000 per annum.

 

I am not most people.

I don't care what they say. It has nothing to do with what I say.

Stick to what I say. When you engage me, I will engage you, not rip on some moron I saw driving a Camaro.

Try to show me the same courtesy.

Ultimately, that is all I am trying to accomplish with you. If it means I have to pick you apart, so be it, but it is not without purpose.

 

Why would it be a "moron" that was driving the Camaro versus a performance enthusiast who appreciates a LOT of bang for the buck?

If you want to take issue with the PROOF I provide (via links and scans) then you darn well better take issue with those who provide NO PROOF and instead offer baseless assertions that are followed by 3rd grade level personal attacks once they're proven WRONG.

What's with the "W8" @ the end of your username? You didn't buy a $40K Volkswagin that runs low fifteens....did you?

 

You have a very paranoid personality and a basic inability to communicate.

There was no MORON in a Camaro, nor did I say there was. It was simply an example of something that I do not do, i.e make generalizations about Camaro owners. It had to be a insult, because the point I was making was that I do not make such blanket insults about Camaro drivers in general. Understand?

Recall I have yet to put your Camaro down. This has taken a remarkable degree of restraint, since all you have done is insult both of the cars that sit in my garage and me for having them in my garage.

And quite frankly, there are a lot of idiots who drive Camaros. You know that, I know that. They are not idiots because they drive a Camaro; they just happen to be an idiot driving a Camaro. There may be a correlation, but there is no direct causal relationship. You can find idiots in just about anything, including TLs and Accords and NSXs.

I have taken issue with others on this site, including some of the same people you are referring to. Take a look at the G35 threads. I have not taken issue with them in this thread or the other threads in which we have locked horns because your abrasive, relentless posting doesn't allow for anything other than your voice to be heard. That, and they were not insulting one of the cars I own. I engage them when I have a reason to engage them. I don't have one at the moment. Do you see me quoting their posts and congratulating them when they go too far? I don't think so.

And NO, I didn't buy a Passat W8. And so what if I had? At the end of the day, would it make you feel better about yourself if I did?

If you want to ask me a question about the meaning of my user name, perhaps you should ask the question instead of another pointless, backhanded attempt at an insult.

 

Which car do own that I've "insulted?"

The only thing that's REALLY wrong with the TL is Acura's oversight in failing to offer the A-Spec package (minus the useless, weight-adding body tack-ons that are currently part of it) as a reasonably priced (~ $1,800) factory/rpo.

Accord EX/V6s can be had for ~ $26K. I'd gladly pay $7K more than that for a TL equipped with a factory installed A-Spec package.

I also feel that the automatic car should offer the Brembo brakes and larger anti-roll bars from the 6 speed - included in or in addition to the optional A-Spec package.

 

I see plenty of idiots in big money cars who make the mistake of trying to run my "lowly" Camaro. And I've seen just as many stunned faces after the fact.

Idiots can be "rich" and drive expensive cars, too. It's just that the show of wealth tends to cloak the idiocy @ first glance. People tend to think, "That guy CAN'T be an idiot because he's rich."

 

The TL and the NSX. I don't know how you could pretend to be unaware of that, given that we have probably exchanged in excess of 50 posts on the subject.

These are all reasonable things. If you had approached this subject, the HID subject, and all of the other subjects in this manner, we would not be where we are now.

It is not all your fault. You have been goaded along the way. But you cannot sit here and say to me that you have not insulted the TL or the NSX. All of your little fun facts about how overpriced and underwhelming these two cars are, and how much smarter you are than everybody else because you chose the Accord V6 sedan and the Camaro 1LE, ending with little :wow: smilies and question marks speak for themselves.

Why do you think all of your threads end up the way they do?

Have you looked at other threads and how they don't end up in a repetitive nightmare?

Do you understand that your communication problem is the reason why it is different in this thread and every other one you infect?

Haven't you had the same experience on other forums?

Aren't you getting tired of it? I know that I am.

 

I think that people have a hard time accepting COLD, HARD FACTS that fly in the face of their previously held misconceptions.

And I think that simple reality results in emotionally based outbursts...

Most of the topics on here are overly simplistic and are therefore limited in the amount of "controversy" they can ignite. How mad can people get because someone else's memory seat doesn't work properly?

The MAJORITY of people I've known throughout the years who have promoted Japanese cars like to bring up little phrases like "high tech" and "superior engineering," and "high efficiency." Those phrases are often uttered in a condescending, "you stupid fool" tone.

Despite the undeniable OVERALL superiority of Japanese cars, I find it "interesting" that none of their performance models (that I'm aware of) have yet equalled a simple pushrod V8 (vintage 1998) in terms of MPG/drivewheel HP.

Don't you find that "interesting?" Doesn't that want to make you stop and think for a minute or two rather than resorting to a temper tantrum, as many of the others on here might?

 

Marketing. Yes, that's what I said - Marketing. It may not make sense to some people, but if you could sit in the board rooms of all the car makers all over the world, you would find that they are all trying to decide how to market their vehicles.

The Japanese have been unbelievable smart in this regard. For many years, they purposely did not try to go after American cars on their own turf. They used what is termed as "Gorilla Warfare" tactics - hitting the Americans where they weren't.

Oh, and for the record you are forgetting one Japanese car that did (at the time) outrun the Americans. That was the Supra Turbo. Only the much more expensive, and very limited production Viper and ZR-1 Corvette could outrun it at the time (and neither of them had pushrod V8's). And please don't tell me you were limiting your remarks to "vintage 1998". That qualifier makes no sense. And please don't tell me that no Japanese car equals the pushrod V8 today. What's the point? Toyota now sells more CARS in the U.S. than any other company - including GM. And they are doing it without a car that can outrun American Iron.

 

I said MPG/Drivewheel HP.

Example: The Z06 Corvette gets 19 city/28 highway and produces ~ 355 Drivewheel HP.

Name ANY Japanese or European car sold in this country that can top that.

I brought up 1998 because that's the year the LS1 made its debut in the F-body...It was 1997 for the 'Vette.

 

Perhaps you haven't seen my signature before. Let me turn it on for you.....

 

How could I have "missed" it when you didn't give it?

But you missed my point entirely: MPG per peak drivewheel HP

The LS6 rules the roost...

And the LS1 isn't too far behind.

Perhaps the LS2 will top both.

I like all of your vehicles.

UPDATE:

http://www.c6vetteregistry.com/c6/stats.asp

Same 19/28 and it now requires 93 octane (10.9:1 CR) to get the most out of it.

 

Which V-8? Certainly not the Mustang GTs. The Lexus GS 400 was the fastest automatic sedan on the planet in 1998. And a SUpra TT will wipe the floor with a Camaro Z28 or SS. And if we mod both, the Supra Single turbo ownsz it badly.

So make sure you pick on the right Japanese company. And I like Camaros, sad they replaced it with that silly truck.

 

I made my comment about my signature because it has been posted on other threads. I never implied it was shown on this thread, now did I (you put "missed" in quotations implying that's the word I used - look at my thread again - I never used that word).

Secondly, the 1993 Supra Turbo had 320 horsepower and got 17/24 mpg. The 1993 Corvette had 300 HP and got 17/25 mpg. Are you willing on at least conceding that is a "wash"?

But forget that for a minute. You missed my point. Re-read my thread about how manufacturers market their cars. My point is that they all have different ways of going after customers.

By the way, I'm going to bed after I post this. And I have to leave early in the morning to go help a friend work on his Z06. So yes, I do have quite a bit of knowledge on LS6's as well, and I have already placed my order for a LS2 Corvette.

Later.

 

Yeah...the Supra was a pretty decent car.

Too bad Toyota priced it out of the market.

 

What a thread. I guess I could have purchased an Accord last year over my TL-S and probably for 100 less a month. Would the Accord get me from point A to point B with less money? Sure. However, I thought it was a boring car with a boring interior. It also has that strange back end and the front looks like a Civic. 100 bucks a month to drive a car which makes me excited to drive, rather than a car I'd be bored with is worth it to me. And everyone and their mom has an Accord. But if you're not a driving enthusiast, sure the Accord wins. So would the Civic.

 

svtmike,

It sure is! As soon as I find out exact opening dates and possible weather reports I'll post the day and see if everybody local to us might want to go.

 

brahtw8,

I know your joking, you are joking right?