ttribe

Back to the OP -

The answer to your question depends totally on what you value the most and what compromises you're willing to make for that which you value.

You mentioned handling - right out of the box, the 330 is likely to handle better. That's the just the nature of a BMW vs. an Acura. But, as has been pointed out, there are things you can (easily) do to a TL to significantly improve its handling. My TL had the A-Spec suspension, A-Spec wheels, a Comptech rear sway bar, and ultra-high performance summer tires. These things completely changed the behavior of the TL. However, there's a limit to what you can do given its FWD base. Similar upgrades on a 330 will still outshine the TL just because it's a RWD sport sedan.

That being said, will you pay more for repairs and maintenance on a 330? Yep. Sure will. German cars are built to different tolerances and performance levels. Getting them back into spec takes more time and the parts are more expensive. You will spend more on the 330 over its life than you will on the TL. But, you don't need to go to a dealer; find a good independent who specializes in BMWs and you will save a TON of money.

However, you need to go into the TL eyes wide open as well. There are things that go wrong. My TL had its power steering rack replaced when I owned it (and I hear from the new owner that Acura just replaced it again). There are have been numerous accounts of failing automatic transmissions on the 3G TL. I went through 2 sets of motor mounts (not cheap). My TL's Bluetooth module failed and the part alone for that thing is around $700. If the nav goes bad on the TL (and there are reports on this board of that happening) plan on another $1k+ repair bill.

In sum, bad things happen to used cars. Where are you willing to gamble in order to get what payoff? Do you want to maximize handling? If so, get the BMW. Do you want to mod a TL to get a pretty good handling sedan and likely lower repair costs over its life? If so, get the TL.

My take...and I'm sticking with it.

NIGHTEHAWK

I say try both out, and be patient otherwise you might end up regreting a purchase, BMW's are gorgeous and so are TL's, it's up to you now. GL

I hate cars

C&D reverted back to a previous test for braking numbers so the lack of ABS did not hurt anything.

The TL was the fastest in a straight line with the exception of the IS350.

The TL pulled the highest skidpad number and quickest lane change of all cars tested.

It depends on what you want. In stock form like most cars it understeers. The suspension geometry is great meaning the TL does not have to have ultra stiff springs, swaybars, and shocks to handle well. It does have some body roll but that doesn't hurt handling much. It flat out out corners the 330. However, it's going to feel softer and have a little more body roll. In stock form, the 330 feels sharper.

The TL does out-handle the 3 series of the same years. The mag tests show it as do my track visits. A car with less roll might feel like it handles better but putting them on the track or at least measuring performance in certain areas is the only way to know for sure. I've been in many modded cars that the owner thought handled well due to a lack of body roll but when I pushed them to the limit, they fell apart and exhibited some "weird" behavior. I'm not saying that's what it was in your case but without numbers you'll never know how the car really handles.

When I was looking for a new car in Dec of '05, it came down to these two cars along with an '03-'04 Cobra. The Cobra was out because I didn't need the speed and I could get the Bimmer a little cheaper than the TL because I have a friend that owns the BMW dealer. I picked the TL due to the interior, exterior, handling, acceleration, and reliability over the Bimmer. The only thing the TL will always have going against it is FWD and that sucks but it keeps me from having too much fun on the street.

dannyboy10

TL outhandles the 330i ? There is one comparison back then where the TL got a 7 for handling and the 325i got a 10 for handling.

I recall C&D loved the E46 BMW's back then enough to have it on their 10 Best list every year. Driving dynamics was BMW's forte back then (not so sure today..look at the new 5-series).

ttribe

You mean, like this new 5-Series? https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=826


(sorry...couldn't resist)

I hate cars

Take a look at the numbers. The TL of the same year does outhandle the 330 period.

Dynamics is something different. The TL is not as sharp, doesn't offer the road feel and it's FWD (part of the reason it does not off good road feel and feedback). And a big part of dynamics is RWD and what a GOOD driver can do with it. Put 90% of acurazine and bimmerforums in identically prepared FWD and RWD cars and they would be quicker in the FWD cars.

C&D is infamous for rating better handling cars lower because they don't offer the "BMW dynamics". I'll leave that one alone for now.

But driving impressions and feelings aside, the TL is the better handling car. My experiences at Willow mirror that. In the comparison linked, the TL pulled the highest skidpad number and fastest lange change maneuver of all cars. It had the second fastest acceleration behind the IS350.

It amazes me that people ignore numbers and let their feelings get in the way so often. Saying the 330 is RWD so it should outhandle the TL is ignoring a TON of other factors that lead to good handling. RWD is only an advantage if you know how to take advantage of it. For most people it leads to spins. You can't tell me more than 2 people on this forum would know how to place the car using the throttle.

JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

No need to argue and get bitter at each other. You asked our opinions, and we are doing just that. I dont know your past or claim to.

You have to expect personality differences on Acurazine. Take what opinions you like, and leave the rest alone. Look for the good opinions and leave the bad alone. We are just on here to help EACH other, NOT to bicker and jump at each others throats.

Good luck with YOUR choice.

We have all had different backgrounds and experiances with cars. I have owned about 20 NEW cars and trucks. I have had issues with Toyota's, My nephew had MAJOR problems with His Honda. I never had ANY issues with the 3 TL's and 2 Honda's I have owned. I had issues with 1 Toyota, but the other 3 I didnt. I had a 2010 SS/RS LS3 Camaro SS that had a few issues, but in 37,000 miles in 26 miles I drove it through SNOW and all conditions, it was RATTLE FREE. A great American car.

GOOD LUCK BROTHER

dannyboy10

I have never tracked any car.... but I would be more confident in the 330i (E46 or E90) for "everyday" driving with some fun thrown in. In my case, a 330i would be "better" for me if I had to avoid NYC cabbies who stop short or perform sudden lane changes. I just picked up a 325i and love the driving dynamics....it communicates with me more than my TL. Both cars are nice...it just depends what attributes a buyer values more. The BMW will hurt you in the wallet for maintenance/repairs !!!

Do you recall the track times for stock 3-series and TL's at your track ? I don't miss my 1981 Regal, 3.8L engine pumping out a whopping 110hp !

dannyboy10

No problem, M3's and M5's are in another class of their own !!

To this day, I do not understand why BMW decided to use electric water pumps...they still fail and they cost 4 times the price of the old water pumps in the E46 and E39 cars.

I hate cars

That's great you feel more confident in a car that stops longer, and handles worse in bad traffic where you need the stopping and handling. The logic makes no sense though.

Track times at Willow or at the strip? I'll have to look if I have any times for Willow but there are many mag tests of stock cars at that track. The big disadvantage I had was the stock 5at brakes until I upgraded to the Rotora BBK which hurt stopping distances but would last for an entire race. Even on Streets they wanted to fade. A 6mt would've done even better. Before I had to start nursing the brakes I could brake significantly later and carry a lot more speed around the corners. It was almost comical.

I'm all about RWD. Just read the turbo threads. I think every performance car should be rwd and it's a lot more fun but you have to give credit where credit is due, the TL out handles a lot of rwd cars. This is not based on feelings, this is based on numbers and track experiences. You choose to ignore the numbers for some reason.

I'm not sure why this was brought up but the carbureted 3.8 was tuned for cruising like most American cars of the '80s were. Peak hp was made around 4,000rpm and peak torque at 1,800rpm. Torque was significantly greater than hp, again, similar to most American non performance cars of the time. The turbo 3.8L put down 3x the power to the wheels stock compared to the NA version with a similar power band. Nearly 400lbs of torque at the wheels out of a V6 out in the '80s was unheard of. The '81 did not have the updated front and rear fascias and the updated interior.

FWIW, I ran my parents' old '84 GranPrix with the same engine, same chassis as the Regal and it was something like a 18@61mph. I can't remember exactly what it ran but I remember the 1/4 time and the 0-60 time was almost identical. I nearly took home a first place trophy in bracket racing in that car the one and only time I took it to the track.

I hate cars

Electric water pumps when controlled by the ECU offer several benefits.

dannyboy10

IHC,

I am not looking to pick a verbal war with anyone here. My posting history here will show that. Only trying to understand your opinion in regards to handling between the 2 cars. I am definitely not debating whether FWD or RWD is better.

Also not "ignoring" numbers. 0-60 means nothing to me as long the car is not a slug....I do not think I can tell the difference between 7.0 and 7.4 seconds since I don't floor it when I drive.

So far, I have found my E46 to be a little more "nimble" in NYC driving. Just my opinion....I actually prefer my brother's TSX over my TL in terms of handling and driving dynamics.

I was curious about lap times you experienced or know about for the 2 cars (bone stock) as they probably give a more rounded picture than just skidpad and braking numbers. Based on your track experiences, it sounds like a lot of us drink the BMW kool aid a little too much.

dannyboy10

Can you elaborate on what the benefits are ? BMW owners are complaining about shelling out $1,000. (parts plus labor) for replacing a faulty electric water pump....there's even a recall on some models because of fires.

Again, just curious.

snowtrax

I've owned a 2004 330i and it was alright. The leather was cardboard hard (probably because it was black and had sun damage), the air conditioning made a lot of crackly noises and the ride was very stiff even without the sport package. It was very small but handled VERY well with excellent brakes. The exhaust flap will rust open so at idle it will shake everything and give you a headache. Reliability in the TL will probably be better if you don't run into transmission problems. It's really all about preference. The BMW is much torquier, smaller and sportier, less reliable and the TL is the opposite.

AcuraIntegTL

OP,

1) How does the TL handle? I've test driven it, but I was afraid to really try it out because at the time I was afraid to ruin a car that didn't belong to me - he wasn't selling it then.

Response: To me the TL handles okay, but as others have stated you can always mod it to your preference.

2) Which do you think is a better value?

Response: TL. Now I personally think this is the most important question. Some additional questions that may point you in the right direction. All questions may not apply to you, but good things to think about.

a)How many miles are on each vehicle?
b)Which gets better mpg?
c)Which will cost less to maintain?
d)What condition are the two cars in?
e)Any warranty programs available for either car?
f)How many miles do you plan to put on your car?
g)Resale value, if any?


3) Which would you go for in my position?

Response: I don't know how many miles will be on the BMW you compare to the TL, however, if all variables regarding the condition of the both cars is constant I would get the TL. It's more cost affective in the long run.

ProbyOne

If you were talking about the E90 or E92 330i then that would be my pick hands down.

Otherwise go with the TL.

snowtrax

A 2004 330i is an e46

ProbyOne

Exactly. That was my point.

I hate cars

I was several seconds quicker around the small track which is a pretty big difference. The TL feels totally different. It does not feel as sporty, by driving it 7/10ths you would swear the 330 handles better. But when you really push the limits of the car the TL is the quicker car around the track. You have to deal with the numb steering like every FWD car. I mean, for a FWD car the TL actually communicates pretty good but it will never be like a RWD car. The 330 is more fun to drive but the TL will get you there quicker. Braking seems more responsive in the 330 but the TL has shorter stopping distances. Basically the TL feels fatter and less nimble during normal sporting drives but at the limit it shines. The suspension geometry is wonderful but that's part of what makes it not feel as sporty. It does not require super stiff springs to handle good. A little body roll is not a total performance killer since it goes into negative camber as the body leans so the TL has more body roll and feels less aggressive basically because it can get away with that with little performance loss.

I will say the BMWs I've driven require much less learning time. You can get in and it has good communication and you adjust quickly. With the TL I found it's limits much slower because it doesn't always tell you when you're getting close.

I can see why you might want a 330 over a TL for having a little fun on the street.

The water pump can be manipulated to run at any speed it needs to. Instead of a traditional thermostat to block water flow, the pump can be run at a very low rate saving energy. It can be run once the car is shut off to take care of local hot spots. It can be controlled at full throttle to prevent cavitation. It can cool better because moving water as quickly as possible is not always the best or quickest way to cool the engine. There's a point where the water moves too quickly to pick up heat and to dissipate heat in the radiator.

It basically give much more precise control of engine cooling. That's all assuming it's controlled by the ECU.

heza

My

Lots of bickering I don't care to read based on good friend ownership experience.

Here's what I know...

One buddy... 2003 Audi RS6 (insanely fun to drive) yet in the shop allllllllll the time for this and that. His S4 Avant, no different, but he's an Audi freak regardless.

Another buddy... 330i ZHP, gremlins for days and I often comment "I will take my Jap Crap anyday" (Pardon if offensive, but he calls my car Jap Crap")

Yet another buddy... BMW M3, computer took a crap and spent his savings to replace it.

German cars are fanatically awesome until that warranty expires... then you piss your money away with every little thing that pops up.

With that... Go Acura.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ heza i cudnt have said it better....

my uncle had a 330ci convertible...2001/2002 model ? (cant remember)....when i was buying my car (in 2007), he was selling his as he wanted to move to Amsterdam....I told him, i will take it off your hands....

his response: "i would love for the car to be in the family, but this car goes to the shop every 3 months for something or the other and I have to spend a fortune on it"

after 2 years he came back from Amsterdam and back to Cali....he got an A6 with the Sline package (2006 model)....and that car has ABS problems, has some or the other computer problems....i drove it and hell it was fun to drive but there were 4 different errors coming on the screen and making the "beep beep beep" every freaking 2 minutes....bugged the shit out of me....

I am glad i got my acura....its an 05 with 160K miles on her....never a single issue....I have done/spent money on ONLY preventive maintenance....never had anything go out on my car....yeah couple dash bulbs are blown but better than the computer taking a Japanese dump....

bpowa

op I was in the same boat.. one of my options is a 330ci or a m3.. But reliability and cheaper maintenance steered me to the tl..

Though I wouls still love to get an e46 m3.. Then i would be driving it more like an idiot..

I already drive like an idiot with a tl..

RWD = drift, rolling burnouts..