MBrown1003

Hi, all. This is my first post here, so please be kind to me.

I'm considering an '07 TL Type-S. I haven't seen one in the metal; haven't driven one. I've read everything I can find online.

Full disclosure: I don't love FWD. I have two cars, both with 6-speed manuals, both high-performance variants. One is FWD ('03 VW GTI) the other is RWD ('02 BMW M5).

The leases on both cars end within 7 months. I want to end up with a coupe and a sedan. My current (this minute) thinking is this:

* Replace GTI w/TL Type-S
* Replace M5 with 335i coupe

Here's my questions:
* Can somebody comment on FWD-ness of the TL vs. something comparable in RWD (such as 3 Series or MB C-Class)? Not speculation -- I'd like actual "I've had one and..." comments. (By the way, I test-drove a Lexus IS250 with a 6-speed manual. Nice car, well-appointed, nice price, but just not enough car [as in not enough power] for me.)

* I've had a number of situations in the GTI where the car would have spun if not for the stability control. (Example: coming into an exit ramp hot [why have a high-performance car if you're not gonna use it?!], and find a deer standing in the middle of the ramp. I stand up on the brake -- Brake Assist fires and takes the car to full braking, at which point the back end heads for the outside of the curve. Stability control puts everything back where it belongs, and I avoid the deer.)

How does a TL (especially a Type-S) react in this kind of situation? I'm thinking that it is probably better balanced than the GTI, and I wonder if the longer wheelbase would also have any effect.

I'm also thinking about a SAAB 9-5 or an Audi A4 3.2 quattro.

Other thoughts / ideas / suggestions are welcome, too.

pbm317

I don't think any of the Type S owners have had any panic situations yet...

It's definitely FWD, and not as buttoned down as a RWD Sport Package/M BMW, and I really never expected it to be. I came from a 2006 (E90) BMW 330i.

vishnus11

It sounds like your a much more sporting driver than the average Joe, and obviously this is where the limitations of the FWD setup will become more apparent. I've driven the 3G TL, E90 and E46 3's, A4, and others. The TL is NOT lacking in power or power delivery - just smooth creamy power all the way, especially when compared to the likes of the E90 325, and E46 330, which seemed somewhat lackluster in comparison.

The 3GTL I drove was an auto, and I didn't find any readily apparent torque steer when driving the car at 6-7/10's of its abilities - no tugs on the steering wheel when whipping around corners, or when nailing it in the straights. It also seemed to exhibit relatively little body roll in the corners. These are just my observations, and I really didn't push the car hard enough to discover any limitations of its FWD setup. I'd say for anything up to 8/10's driving around town, you'd be hard pressed to detect the "FWD-ness" as you put it, since it is very well disguised.

At the end of the day, no matter what opinions you get on here, you're best bet is to test drive the TL Type-S and others and see what suits you best. The Type-S is relatively new and the chances of getting a comprehensive review of it on here at this point aren't high. Best of luck in your search.

EDIT: Have you looked at the new G35? RWD, Japanese reliability, and claimed to have very good chassis dynamics.

vincethe1

here's my . Sorry to put it to you, but the type of questions you are asking and the hope that stability control is gonna save you makes me think that the TL-S is too much of a beast for you, however since it's fwd it's easier to control vs rwd in rain u cud be all over the place. The TL is a very well designed car and whoever says that FWD is a limitation to it is just a plain old fwd hater just like the thousands of other people today. There is nothing wrong with the fwd tl, drivability is great, traction is substancial, and handling is percice. I have not experienced any torque steer from the car that is uncontrolable.

The tl is a proper performance sedan and it moves like hell. The only reason you would need rwd is if you are doing professional track racing where rwd has a small advantage....but judging from your questions, it seems like y'r far away from having the skill to do that, even though you might be a spirited and heavy footed driver.

sixsixfour

Coming from an Evo, I will tell you frankly that the TL does impress me for a FWD. I agree, there are a lot of haters and they think that just because its FWD its not dynamically good.

BS.

Having come from a relatively high end of the performance/handling spectrum, I can attest that the TL's electronics/traction control do kick in "at the right time", allowing (for me at least) to find the edges of the car's abilities before stepping in. It may not have been the same as a modded Evo in terms of handling, but a few adjustments that anyone can do with existing parts (like adjusting tire pressures) make small but noticeable changes in the TL's attitude.

Like for me, I was used to how my Evo was set up to turn in better, with less understeer. I cranked up the rear tire pressures to near the maximum and did the opposite for the fronts. eventually I will put a slightly wider tire in the front (245 vs the 235 stocks) and keep the OEM size (235) in the rear to make the front end "bite" more while the rear breaks away a bit (due to the stiffer sidewall of the OEM tire size).

Another thing I like about the TL is that it doesnt care as much when you overlap brake and throttle, which I did on the Evo a lot. left foot braking helps correct your line if you start to push on a fast corner; you dont lose speed as much since you can be on the throttle as you tap the brakes to tighten your line. although I do miss the Brembos' ability for fade-free stopping power, just re-learning and adapting to the TL's tires/brakes compensated for it and adjusted my threshold for braking on a different part of the spectrum compared to where I was when I drove the Evo.

Overall, dont let the "FWD is weak" argument persuade you. This is a really fun car for what it is and I couldnt be any happier with my decision.

good luck.

MBrown1003

I drove one at an autocross last summer. It didn't feel well-controlled at all. It understeered more than I would have expected given its chassis setup and balance. The other issue is that the nearest Infiniti dealer is 15 miles away, and it's in exactly opposite the direction I drive to work.

Thanks to everybody for the thoughtful (and reality-based) comments. I'm planning to test a Type-S as soon as I can get my hands on one. I've been happy with the two GTIs I've had, and it sounds like the TL will be even better.

richpearl

It's amazing what a difference tire pressure makes in the TL. After a couple of months with my TL 6MT, I discovered that the dealer had not inflated the tires to the specified pressure--apparently they used the 5AT specs. When I pumped the front tires to 35 psi and the rears to 32 psi, my car began handling with much less understeer. (By then, what with the termperature having dropped, the rears were at about 27 psi and the front at 29 psi each.)

Probably if I wasn't such a newbie to this board, I'd have already discovered that Acura dealers--like so many other auto dealers--are notorious for not delivering cars with properly inflated tires.

--Rich

SuperStar

TL-S is too much of a beast? The man has an m5. Read a little to understand his concern.

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

How about an E350 Mercedes Benz?

I traded my TL for one. The power is about the same. The difference comes in the handling. My god, sometimes I thought I was going to lose control of my TL on the freeway going 75 on the Penna Trnpk (I76 toll road). That road has ALOT of bends. My mercedes stays FLAT going damn near 90 around these bends where the TL felt like it would slide off the road if I pushed it harder!

sixsixfour

sorry i got that part mixed up. I meant I inflated more on the fronts and less on the rears. i caught my mistake when i read your reply

MBrown1003

Thanks for the pointer. I have to agree -- the E-Class Mercedes is a nice car, and has been for a very long time.

My issue with the E350 is that it suffers pedal deficit. As in, "no clutch pedal". In 30 years of driving, I've never had an automatic, and I'm not planning to start now. (I actually had a 1988 Mercedes-Benz 190e 2.3 with a 5-speed. Easily the worst transmission of all my cars.) Of course, that was around the time VinceThe1 was born. They've made progress since then.

I'm looking for whatever I get to be my most-of-the-time car. It'll also be the one to use when I'm driving with more than one passenger, so rear space is a consideration, but a minor one. (I learned with the Benz: you don't like my back seat? Take your own damn car!)

I want it to be...
* nice enough that my middle-class, middle-aged body will be comfy;
* sophisticated enough that my techie side will enjoy the toys;
* high-performance enough that the enthusiast in me will look forward to driving it; and
* priced reasonably enough (relatively) that the cheapskate in me can still have 1 home, 2 cars, and a growing retirement plan.

I gotta compromise on >something<. My preference would be two RWD, 6-speed cars, both with all the toys (Bluetooth, nav, good stereo, etc.), good handling, and a weight-to-power ratio comparable to my M5 (around 10.15). To get all that, I'd have to spend a lot more. The Type-S appeals to me because it seems to hit on all the requirements, assuming that the FWD-ness under MOST circumstances is no worse than my current GTI.

Not too far from the local Acura store is an intersection that I hope to use for test driving. It's a cross-street of a secondary road. The secondary road is badly crowned. If I've got the GTI revved in first or second as I cross, the car gets light on the suspension, and the wheel jerks to the left. (FYI, my GTI is a VR6 -- 201 HP; not sure of the torque.) In rain, the car feels "darty" under moderate or better acceleration. That's the FWD-ness that concerns me -- that, and the imbalance I mentioned when braking hard in corners.

sixsixfour

that imbalance you get diving into corners, can you be a bit specific?

generally, I would think that you mean that either you are 1) losing grip, 2) too much roll, or 3) losing too much speed/momentum.

Some stickier tires (the OEM Evo Advan A046s are the same size/dimensions as a stock TL tire) should cure the loss of grip and also should help you carry more speed thru the corners. it can also improve your braking as well. at $275/tire, they dont come cheap though, and they come in only that size.

the downside of a lot more stickier tires is that you will tend to have more body roll. some stiffer roll bars should correct that, but you'd want to be careful not to make the car too stiff that you kill the car's response to your steering input.

good luck

MBrown1003

I was referring to the situation I described in the initial post -- where I was cornering aggressively, needed to brake hard, and the back-end let loose due to the weight transfer onto the front tires. I wonder if the TL will be less prone than the GTI 'cuz of the longer wheelbase; I also think it's less front-heavy. Anybody know the weight distribution of the Type-S? I think there's about 12 pounds total on the rear end of the GTI. (Well, maybe a LITTLE more than that!) I'm also a little leery of the torque steer with that much torque going thru the front wheels.

My plan is to get the car with the summer tires. The winter tires on my M5 are a minus-one conversion, and I'm pretty sure (not certain, but pretty sure) they will fit the TL, so I'll have dedicated winter tires for next winter.

sixsixfour

I believe the weight distribution is close to 60F/40R but I am not totally sure.

as far as torque steer is concerned, I dont think there is really any way around that on a FWD car, other than adding sticky tires and a more agressive helical LSD. those two, plus good suspension tuning should get the most out of the TL, as Ive seen a few FWD EGs and DC5s that ran as fast as Evos on certain track days.

all season and winter tires are definitely fun killers on most cars (especially your M5). with shoulder blocks the size of dimes they dont really hold any grip beyond 4/10s of driving. Since the stock TL rides on wheels & tires that are almost identical to a stock Evo (almost identical meaning all but their weights are the same, with Evo wheels being waay lighter) I would assume that up to 255/45 R17s should fit on the TLs rims with no problems. on the plus side, a lot of stock-sized lightweight wheels that are available for the Evo should improve unsprung weight on the TL, making for better overall handling.

MBrown1003

My M5 winter tires are 235/45-VR17. When getting snow shoes for the M5, I figured I should go the extra $$ and get V-rated winter tires. The V rating makes a huge difference.

On my prior car (a 2000 540i/6), I used H-rated winter tires. They were fine for snow/ice, but when driving on dry pavement (which is most of the time), they were awful (compared to the summer tires).

I've used Dunlop winter tires the past several winters -- they were awesome (almost no degradation in handling/performance), and lasted about 20k miles. I'm happy with that. I'll be looking at replacements in the next few weeks. 'Tis the season here in the northeast!

Appreciate all the knowledgeable feedback here, folks. Can't wait to get my hands on a TL -- hoping I'll love it, and that the dealer will be reasonable.

(In my research, it seems that the cars are going for sticker. Anybody know what's happening in the real world? I seem to have a talent for picking going-at-sticker cars. Why couldn't I be that good at picking investments?)

ndx2

The main thing you'll notice with the TL in terms of FWD is the steering feel/feedback.

It's precise and sensitive, but that also means it can feel wobbly/unstable under certain conditions.

In that exit-ramp situation, the TL won't be so tossable like the GTI. In fact, you might think the TL feels like a "boat" on the first drive. I can't see how VSA would help if the rear breaks loose... On on/exit-ramps, the my TL's rear starts to lose traction at 60~MPH, and VSA doesn't help much because it's a passive system. So, don't rely on the VSA to save your life there. You'll just have to steer yourself out of that mess...

Then again, we have BA and EBD, as well as ABS, so it'll lessen the chance of the rear swinging out. You should try it out on the test drive with the salesman!

The weight distribution is probably typical 60/40, 61/39...

kobi2002

what happen to your evo. i had one but needed to get something to chill in so I got the tl

sixsixfour

traded it in for the acura TL. my brother still has one though, plus Im the head of the US chapter of the Emperor Evo Club so I can get an Evo fix anytime

kobi2002

lot of people talk about the m3 on here like its god's wagon. But the m3 can't hold a candle on the evo.

sixsixfour

performance wise, agreed. Ive never met an M3 I didnt walk away from in my MR.

luxury wise, its the other way around. you get more ass than a toilet seat driving an M3 over an Evo

vishnus11

Maybe you need to learn how to drive?

A 3G TL unstable at 75mph? Either your driving skills leave something to be desired or (more likely) something was wrong with your car.

Yes, I've driven the I-76 stretch, as recently as last weekend on my way to Philly. I've driven it from Pittsburg to Phili as well in multiple cars including my S2000, uncle's 3.2TT, and my TL, and my TL didn't make me feel like I was going to "lose control".

And you do realize that an E350 loaded to the level of a TL would be close to 50k right?

Lots of good comments on here. I definetely agree that a lot of the perceptions of FWD are not present in the TL, which handles admirably. The exterior and interior of the TL Type-S alone would make me choose it over a G35, 330i, IS, and others.

MBrown: if you do decide to go for the TL Type-S please post pics and more importantly, your impressions, especially when compared to the sports sedan benchmark, the M5

groovyone789

I just got my Black 07 Type-S tonight at like 8:30pm. I haven't had much time to drive it but I love it! Unfortunately I've gotta break it in and it was pouring the way home from the dealer. Still the car handled great in the water coated streets and felt solid. I used to have a Denali so talk about the change, 45 in this car felt like 25 in that car. The steering was sporty, the suspension- great around turns, not too stiff over the rough, the exhaust souds great. The interior at night is amazing, however, my nav didn't switch to "night" when it was set to "auto", I think it might have something to do with the auto headlights.
I totally reccomend this car, if you can get your hands on one.

Spheno_3SXZERO

^^ U can buy me one and that would solve my problems. Just can't decide between the '07 TL-S or the '07 Suby Legacy GT SPEC B. Completely diff cars, but don't know which direction I wanna go.

lookinco

I have a 06 TL and i am actually quite amazed at how well the TL handles. Mind you my TL is not stock, it has the Tein SS with EDFC, comptech rear sway bar, and Greddy front strut bar. Also I am running R compound tires so it has a bit more traction as compared with most street tires. My front tires are 245 while the back are 235 so it helps give a bit more traction up front and reduce some understeer. I also have adjusted the front suspension to be a bit lower then the rear.

On the street, I feel that my TL gives me a very stable feeling. I have yet to understeer on the street with my current setup even if I push my car.

On the track, it feels very stable going 200km/h down the straights and taking corners. My race instructor was actually amazed and commented about how well the TL handles for a family sedan.

On my last track day, I went with a M3 and a G35. I was able to keep up with the M3 and kept the G35 behind me. Of coz, we are just the average joe drivers and not professionally trained, so it does not truely reflect how these cars compare with each other.

theslik1

Oh wait, I'm married.

lookinco

by the way, I have driven the M3 many many times, and it's handling is not really comparably with the TL. It's just really good! The SMG is really good on the track, but is jerky for street.

The M3 is the ultimate driving machine, but the TL's interior is just way better.

richpearl

Groovy, the TL has a little "Max" button above the instrument panel brightness control. When Max is pressed, the Navi doesn't switch to night, even when set to "auto." This feature is useful in early morning hours when the sky is getting lighter.

Hope this helps. Enjoy your new ride, and give us some updates after you've put a few miles on it.

--Rich

MBrown1003

Here's another question for those of you with nav-equipped TLs. Does the system disable some functions when you're moving?

Friends of mine with Lexi (specifically LS430) mentioned that they can't enter destination info if the car is moving. That function is grayed out.

In the 3 cars I've had with nav (all BMWs), you have full functionality at all times. Typically, I know how to start a trip, so I'll dive into the car, start it up, drive away, and enter the destination while I'm driving.

How does the Acura handle it?

gdfthr

there is no functionality lost in the TL nav when driving

HEK

Even thout I do not have a "type S" but IMHO if Acura would have put the label on my '05 TL 6M with the mods I've installed they cxould have made more sales and people would have been happier than with a stock 6MT.
Now to answer your topic, I live in MA and drive my car to it's limits when I need to and can only say that I'm a very happy driver since if the conditions and situations permit it, I can drive past anything that is on the road, no matter the "makes" since "most" people who have the Beamers and Cedes don't allways use all their ponies just like most of us don't.
If you get an '07 TL-S or a plain TL you will not be dissapointed but like I did , you will have to "tune" it to your own way of driving....ie, tires, CAI, SS...etc...good luck.... and one last note, don't let those who post and quote...in Consumer Reports...Car and Driver,...Motor Trend....the M5 is faster , the Kompressor will blow you off...The Hemi...etc etc...is the driver who will make the difference so if you suck at drving, no matter what you saddle up on...I'd say shoot the jockey not the horse...

MBrown1003

WHAT HE SAID!!!

I was at the Mazda Zoom-Zoom driving event a few weeks ago in Massachusetts. They had an autocross course set up where you could do a timed lap in a MazdaSpeed6. (Nice car, by the way -- hot motor, AWD, 6-speed.)

If I remember right, the posted time to beat was 42 seconds. IIRC, I came in at 49 on the first try, and just under 45 on the second.

There was one guy who was ripping up the course. One of the instructors pulled him out of line and put him in a plain Mazda 6. No fancy wheels/tires, stock suspension, standard motor, automatic transmission. In THAT car, his time was 39 seconds.

Will Y.

If one car is within a second in the quarter mile or per lap of another car, the drivers will make the difference unless the drivers are professionals on a closed course.

Most of you will be faster than me because I'm a lazy driver, and sipping from my coffee mug while driving does not seem to improve my reaction times.

Oh, and to MBrown1003: drive each car and see how YOU like the driving characteristics of each; don't worry excessively about what we think.

evantec

The 06 TLs have a MAX button for dashboard lighting, so the instrument panel and Navi will stay on DAY mode even if the headlights are on. The idea is to keep them from going dim if you put your lights on during the day. But if it's left on at night it keeps everything too bright. Press it again and the displays go back to Auto mode.

The other idea is to check the NAVI screen's menus -- I think there were 4 lighting settings - AUTO, DAY, NIGHT and OFF. AUTO should be the default.

Glad you're enjoying the performance boost driving a car brings. You've got to wonder how many SUV drivers never gave it any thought.

evantec

It looks like I missed Richpearl's comments. He said the same thing about the MAX button.
Well I had to put my in.

broly

I personally can attest to an E350 Benz. My father rolls around in his black 05 E320 (Who cares about 7 speed 3.5 litre) with 4 matic since he got about 5-6k CAD off the sticker since his friend was selling him his 2nd benz (first was a 99 ml320) and my dad really didn't see the point of paying more to only lose it driving it off the lot.

My father loves his e320. I love his e320. I've never seen such a beautiful F'in interior in my life. He had the choice of a 535xi, or a e320 4matic. Without hesitation after sitting in and driving both, they're both unbelievable, but I'd rather have the E for the old man interior.

The E handles like a champ and rightfully so for hte price you pay for that car. Only thing that scares me is the amounht of torque that damn engine churns out. It's a 4 wheel so I couldn't tell you about RWD, but man having a TL and all I'd never go back after driving that, you feel like a king.

groovyone789

yeah guys thanks for the help w/ the nav brightness, I actually figured it out tonight out driving with friends. I have about 100 miles on the car (lots of places to go), and i continue to love it. I've gotta tell you that everywhere I've gone (including a hs playoff football game) i've been getting stares. To be honest, I haven't seen any other new S's on the road yet. A great change from the Denali. Even the break-in mpg is better than the normal in that one(14 vs 12). Unfortunately, still haven't been able to redline or drive it too hard . Oh well 500 miles to go

SouthernBoy

Sounds like you and I kinda come from the same place - automobile-preferrence wise, that is. In particular your comment, "In 30 years of driving, I've never had an automatic, and I'm not planning to start now". I have more years driving under my belt than do you (I'm not going to say how many), but I couldn't agree more with your statement. I am so biased towards a manaul transmission that I would not even consider a car without one, regardless of how great it might be in all other areas. I would just get flat bored in short order. I appreciate different cars for different reasons. Mustangs, Corvettes, sports sedans, whatever; even trucks. But for my personal driving machine, I tend to lean towards sports sedans for their niceties and pleasurable utilities. But they must have the two things I like the most: power and handling. Straight line performance is my first choice since I like drag racing, but handling with a street machine is very important to me as well.

I own two TLs. Mine is an '04 manual (of course) and my wife's is an '05 automatic - both with Nav. She gave up on her '96 328i Bimmer when it crapped out one too many times.

As for handling, the manual TL most definitely handles more tenaciously than the automatic in stock form. While I have a preference for RWD platforms, the TL is probably the best of the sport sedans in FWD. Shod with superior tires, it gets even better. I have Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires on my TL and while maybe not the best for this particular car, they are a big improvement over the stock shoes. Turn-in is very nice, very good. With 2.7 turns lock-to-lock, steering feel and input is good, making the car respond like right now to driver directional changes. The car does a remarkable job in many catagories which is testament to its design and function.

The clutch action and transmission. The clutch and brake pedals are perfectly spaced for a natural engagement. The clutch pedal has a relatively short travel and an even shorter takeup, which causes some concern for the new owner. With a short takeup, engagement occurs quickly and to some, suddenly. And coupled with the fact that with most TLs, initial engagement occurs very close to full depression, this can cause stalling and bucking. But you soon get used to it and frankly I very much enjoy clutch action on my TL. The transmission is a joy to operate. The shifter is short and the throws are crisp (for cables) and also relatively short. And the shift looks and feels as it should for a car in this class and of this caliber.

Finally, a car must continue to entertain me (a major reason for not having an automatic for my personal machine). My TL still puts a smile on my face whenever I drive it. It's one of those cars that after a hard day's work, you can't wait to get into for the drive home. Most people do not plant their foot to the floor everytime they take off. So what do you feel most of the time when you are driving? Torque and throttle response. While the TL does not have gobs of torque (few cars do), Acura has done a magnificent job of tuning the ECU to deliver excellent throttle response from this engine. I can imagine with the new '07 TL-S and its added cubic inches, throttle response is just that much better. And since you can no longer get a TL with a manual transmission, the TL-S is your baby.

Good luck and keep us abreast of what you decide and what you do.

MBrown1003

SouthernBoy, MANY thanks. Your input was EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Like you, straight-line performance is important to me -- I enjoy the rush when merging onto a highway. And I like knowing that if I drop down a gear or two and stand on it that the car will respond RFN (that's "right ... now"; the "f" is silent. ) At 70 MPH, my GTI (with the VR6) accelerates reasonably well in 6th gear. Same with the M5, though in that thing, it's even more fun to go from 6th to 3d and stand on it. But you can only do that when there's a lot of clear road in front of you.

Your comments on the handling are exaclty what I wanted to know. 2.7 turns lock-to-lock? That's fast!

One other question to the crowd -- what's availability like on these cars? (Specifically, the Type-S with performance tires.) Did you have to wait weeks/months to get 'em, or do the dealers have a reasonble supply?

boomvader

Amen, brother. The BMW M5 is one of the sweetest cars out there. I still stare with envy when I see one!

-boom

richpearl

Thanks, Evantec! Fact is, though, you provided additional information that I didn't. I think your "2cents" added great value.

--Rich