holografique

So I believe I've come across something that I'd like to get some feedback from other RLX owners on the forum.

First off, I'm now at about 10,400 miles on my RLX Advanced. As a result, I am now at a point where I've become very accustomed to the various nuances and overall "feel" for how the car handles and drives under various conditions. Not to mention the car is really "settling" in and I've come to know every little thing about how I like to drive it, but more importantly, how it likes to be driven. Most of my driving time is either daily commute to and from work on a combination of major roads and winding back roads. The rest is 2-4 hour interstate trips throughout the Southeast region for work. I'm based in Atlanta and do frequent trips to Birmingham, Chattanooga, Nashville, Columbia, Charlotte and anywhere in the North Georgia area.

Second, my first experience using VSA was with my 2006 TL 6-speed manual. I understand the basics of what it does and how it works, and when disengaged in my TL, you could tell a somewhat noticeable difference in the overall steering and throttle response. Steering became more "loose" and "free", thus feeling more responsive, as did the throttle having less delay and it too becoming more responsive.

For the past week or so I decided to try disengaging VSA on my RLX, and what I am noticing is a MAJOR difference on how the car feels and drives. The difference is FAR more noticeable than it was on my TL, to the point of where I feel as if Acura has possibly messed something by focusing too much on the "safety ratings" of the RLX and as a result, somehow "dialed" in the VSA settings to be far too restrictive, thus impairing the car's natural ability and performance.

Here are the major differences that I am noticing:

1. There have been past reports of the overall throttle having somewhat of a strong "delayed" response when pushing the pedal out of a full stop. It's less noticeable when "Sport" mode is engaged, but you can definitely tell when it's not engaged and you're at a stop light. You definitely have to push the pedal much further to get the car going. And I'm not talking about having to make the engine growl and pushing it, but just feeling like you're getting a nice quick sprint. Now, try disengaging VSA and holy shit....huge difference. Overall acceleration from a full stop is much faster, smoother, and responsive. The throttle is lightening fast responsive to the point where I don't need to engage "Sport" mode. It feels as if the car lost a bunch of weight and I am now driving a small 2-door coupe. Combine "Sport" mode on with VSA disabled and.....holy F$#%....completely different car. I mean it. Completely different car. I feel as if the car has an entirely different engine and drive-train to it. I don't know how else to explain it other than try it.

2. The steering and handling of the P-AWS transforms with VSA disengaged. All I can say is the car feels and handles completely different. It feels far more nimble, quick with a super-tight, but light response adjusting and moving to every adjustment you make. You feel like you are really driving the car now. Handling on turns is phenomenal and you really "feel" what P-AWS is doing. Where as with VSA engaged, I can really tell now how the car is somewhat fighting itself. Literally restricting itself from really handling the way it can handle.

3. LKAS becomes more responsive and accurate when VSA is disengaged. Adjustments to turns at high-speeds on the interstate are far more accurate and turn-correction is much more responsive and doesn't drift.

I would love for any of you other owners on the list to give this a thorough try and see what your feedback is. Based on my experience over the past week or so, having VSA disengaged has take my enjoyment level up quite a bit. Obviously I'm not a car engineer nor do I have any level of understanding of the inner worksing of car of this magnitude, let alone any car for that matter, but just based on the change this has made to my driving experience so far, I really believe the engineering team has messed something up here and as a result, it's preventing this car from really being what it could be.

hondamore

I really enjoy the "dual personality" aspect of my RL. For daily driving, with VSA engaged and in automatic mode with the transmission, it is a safe, smooth, quiet and comfortable mode of transportation. Every once in a while (often after watching a particularly exciting F1 race), I kill the VSA and click the transmission gear shift over to the manual mode paddle shifters and the RL becomes a fun, fast "racer" that belies its luxury sedan dimensions and weight. The throttle response becomes more immediate and the true benefits of the SHAWD can be felt during aggressive cornering. It's no NSX, but I consider the fun factor amazing considering the fact that it can carry four friends and their golf clubs.

I suspect that the same phenomenon is even MORE pronounced with the new RLX considering the newer technology that has been added. I look forward to hearing from other RLX owners testing out the "other side" of the RLX. I am also hoping that the reviewers of the SHAWD RLX do some testing with VSA off and in sport mode and report the differences quantitatively so the world is aware of both of the RLX's "personalities".

JonFo

interesting, I've never tried VSA off on my '07-RL, will give that a try. Since I do many miles of twisty mountain roads, differences should be noticeable quickly.

Wonder what the performance stat differences for the RLX are with VSA off. Seems the slalom would be much quicker based on the OPs experiences.

weather

holografique...Thanks for that very insightful post. I am going to have to give this a try on my TL....I am almost ashamed to say I never even tried turning the VSA off....

miner

I did get a pleasant surprise this week while traveling in a part of town I was not familiar with. While driving slowly, 25 mph, looking for an address number (I did not have it entered into my Nav) I had noticed I was entering an intersection as the light turned red. I punched the accelerator to get through the interesection and the tires had a nice little spin/churp which I did not expect since the VSA was engaged. I was not in Sport mode either. I never experienced this with my '06 and '10 RLs since ther were SH-awd.

victorber

Thanks for the info on VSA. I'll have to admit that I have never tried disengaging the VSA to see the difference in driving styles, even on my 09TL. Sounds like I have been missing a real difference in overall performance...Leaving for Asheville in a few weeks so I should be able to give it a good workout...

javier509

Thanks for the post!!! I did drive my previous TL like turning VSA off some times... I felt the difference but not a big difference... Never tried in my RLX... I sure will do later to see... Bad thing is that has been raining all day....

sotiri

ok dumb question-
where is the VSA switch in the RLX?
I've looked, and other than the traction control, I dont see VSA.
so is it that traction control is VSA on the RLX?

06RL/NBP

What does VSA stand for and exactly what does it do?

weather

VSA = Vehicle Stability Assist? I think....

sotiri

correct

hondamore

The smart-ass answer is that the vehicle stability assist is designed to assist the vehicle's stability.

The short answer is: it is the latest, high tech version of traction control only with a lot more parameters other than just wheel spin being factored in.

The long-winded attempt to explain: The VSA will cut the throttle or apply the brakes or shift the torque vectoring if it senses that the vehicle is about to lose control or is losing traction or if it feels that conditions are consistent with those that would cause a loss of control in the near future. It does so utilizing an array of sensors and information regarding vehicle dynamics such as speed, steering input, yaw rates etc. and controls such as the throttle, brakes and torque allotment to each wheel.

While this is an vital and indispensable safety feature for everyday driving, during "spirited" driving, aggressive accleration or aggressive cornering it tends to "take the fun" out of things by over-riding the throttle input and lowering speeds to what it deems as safer levels based on the environment and input from all those sensors. That is, if it figures you are taking a corner too fast and may lose traction and "slide" the car, it will slow you down regardless of your throttle input and desire to slide the car.

Turning off the VSA can be fun but also robs the vehicle of all of the essential safety benefits it provides and thus should only be done in controlled conditions by experienced drivers. (my attempt at the legal disclaimer that probably should accompany any discussion about turning off the VSA)

Corey_Straker

Cannot wait to go grab a ADV car on the lot tomorrow and give this a try. Thanks for the info. I didn't think it would change the car that much!

miner

Short answer is YES

holografique

definitely let us know how it goes. and don't pussy-foot it make sure to take it for a drive on curvey roads, and on the high-way and be aggressive with it, obviously within means of staying safe. but don't be afraid to push the car. that's where you'll notice the difference.

holografique

to me this is unnecessary. the very fact that Acura ALLOWS you the option to turn VSA off means it's ok. If it was truly that dangerous and put the driver at risk, then they simply wouldn't give you the ability to turn it off.

Based on my experience so far on how disabling VSA transforms the RLX, I think Acura should consider how they position and present this feature to the driver. The way it's currently presented, it makes it something unnoticeable to most drivers and creates the connotation of "danger". The responses on this list are a shining example of what I'm talking about. People simply don't know about it because of the way it's presented and marketed to the user.

What they should think about is presenting it as part of a a different "driving mode" of the vehicle. So in addition to "sport" mode, there should be a third mode that includes disengaging VSA along with enabling the sport mode adjustments, rather than just making it this "VSA on/off" configuration. Common sense tells you that if you are wanting to drive the car in more of an "aggressive" or "sport" mode, then one is not necessarily looking for the "safety" features that VSA provides. And the mere fact that Acura already lets you disengage VSA means there are no REAL risks or safety hazards other than the driver just needing to be more cognizant of the driving situation and conditions. What other reason would Acura give you the option to turn it on/off other than to give the driver the option to change how the vehicle responds? Common sense says they give you the option because they know drivers out there want that ability to drive the car in more of a performance mode! And that is my point, they are presenting that option the wrong way.

From what I've seen on other brand luxury vehicles (in particular BMW) they present all these types of options in a single, sensible way that allows you to change and configure how the car will drive. Not in an unfocused decentralized way where you have to guess and figure out a combination of disengaging and engaging certain features and safety components of the vehicle. They present it in a centralized manner that lets you choose the various "operating modes" of how the vehicle will be configured to drive, and those modes will make the necessary adjustments "under the hood" for you.

Again, I think Acura's attempt to place a heavy focus on the safety ratings of the RLX is a big part of why it hasn't been so well received when it comes to it's overall feel and performance.

sotiri

Thank you very much.
I seemed to recall on my TL that it had a separate switch.

Corey_Straker

I just took a silver advanced car out. I defiantly noticed something a little bit, but not major. Maybe the fact we have wet roads and snow on the ground has something to do with it. I tried to get some video shots of it... but you can't really notice. Not worth uploading. Once we get a dry day I'll get back to it!

victorber

holografique,
My best guess, after thinking about the reasons for Acura/Honda would tend to present this under the radar, to the consumer most likely would more about Liability protection and not wanting anything to cause any misinterpretation in regards to driving Safety.
I have noticed that if you turn off the VSA (which requires a aggressive push of the button) each time you restart the vehicle, VSA is defaulted to "ON" and not to what you last positioned the switch.
Normally, Safety Engrs. write the book for how they want everything presented, both in-writing and switchology...
Also their is more integration due to the P-AWS system.

holografique

yea, you really need to be under driving conditions where you can push the car a bit. Again, we're not talking drag-racing here, but really handle the car more aggressively without worrying about hazardous road conditions.

The biggest difference is in how tight the steering feels, particularly when taking tight aggressive turns at moderate speeds, how well the gas pedal responds to quick or sudden changes, and overall acceleration from 0mph.

holografique

I hear what you're saying, but ultimately it still doesn't make sense to me. If it was that much of a safety concern then simply don't give the driver the option to disengage it. Period Otherwise, the fact they provide the option clearly shows they WANT to give the driver the option to change how the vehicle drives.

So my point is to simply do that in a more "positive" manner that demonstrates a unique feature of the vehicle versus this cautionary "hey, see this button? you shouldn't really touch it, but if you do, you're at your own risks". That just makes no sense.

victorber

^^Totally agree, as with anything else you be aware of your situation with others around you. I would hesitate turning it off in inclement weather, just incase...
But I do like the feeling without the hesitation I noticed upon picking up the RLX from the dealer....

Corey_Straker

Okay, took a car out today since it was dry and noticed what your talking about. I took a turn and slowly accelerated. turned around and did it again. The handling on the car feels more connected and aggressive. Feels like the car is on edge. Again, not much to see on video though so I'm not gonna upload it.

getakey

not to put a damper on this, but that Carerra GT that Paul Walker was in does not have stability control.

holografique

Yup, that's a great way of putting it. the car "feels" much more connected and that you are truly in control of the vehicle. it responds lightening fast (and smooth) to every touch and change you make, and as a result, feels much more aggressive and nimble. Just this morning I was whipping in and out of lanes passing slow people, and much of my morning drive to work is also along windy hilly suburb back roads and that's where you really notice it the most. turn performance combined with acceleration is where it stands out the most.

so my final point here is that Acura has an opportunity to change the way this is presented to the customer that can provide a more positive reception of the vehicle, especially when it's being reviewed and the reviewer doesn't take the opportunity to try it without VSA. And frankly, they shouldn't have to try it without VSA, why? Because again, Acura presents it as a cautionary feature, so why would a reviewer have to put the vehicle in what is perceived as a "non-safe" state to see how well it performs? It doesn't make sense.

Here's what I'm thinking. Create 4 different "driving modes":

1. Normal (VSA On + Sport Mode Off)

2. Sport-Standard (VSA On + Sport Mode On)

3. Sport-Hybrid (VSA Off + Sport Mode Off)

4. Sport-Advanced (VSA Off + Sport Mode On)

Each mode getting progressively more aggressive. Just like everything else in the manual, clear instructions can be provided that (OBVIOUSLY) as you progress up the modes, the more caution must be taken while driving the vehicle. But my point is that you can already achieve all 4 of these modes now, it's just not presented in an easy and intuitive manner and one that promotes the car being adjustable for various driving conditions and different driver types.

holografique

uh...yea. sure. and the RLX doesn't have a 600HP V10 Engine in it with a drive-train designed for racing....

getakey

Yeah - I got that - Plenty of people have got into trouble with 200hp cars

We are all big boys and can make our own decisions. Just have to realize that with VSA off, there's no safety net.

victorber

Just a thought about VSA & P-AWS,
During my return trip yesterday I encountered very heavy rain and this lasted for about 45 miles coming north on I81. The rain was so heavy that when my RLX hit a substantial depth of water, I had my VSA momentarily switch off and then return to normal. This happened at least 5 times and I noticed a red warning (not quite sure which warning indicator as I was very busy). Once I transited the heavy rain and was able to settle down I was thankful for the total control the RLX afforded me and my 3 other passengers to a safe arrival home. I was quite surprised at the CMBS and the LKAS & LDW that the systems could see where at times I could not.
The RLX also showed it's advanced technology when we were traveling at 75/80 and we came upon a gaggle of other drivers, all of a sudden everything in front of me was solid "RED". After avoiding being involved in a massive collision, we went from 75/80 to 20mph in a millisecond and was able to move over to the right lane and as I passed the vehicle causing the near disaster I looked to my left and there was a 90 year old gentleman with his wife, oblivious to his surroundings, in his 1975 chevy pickup with his hands locked on the steering wheel and in the high speed lane, and staring forward as if he had macledegeneration (sp) Whew... Point of all this is the P-AWS responded as it was designed to, providing the rear wheels to toe-in to assist in panic braking and scrub off speed, and quickly. I never felt out of control.


I have come to a point in life where you learn to trust the technology advancements, even if you don't truly understand them.


For all the Nay-Sayers, who are quick to write an article, downplaying the technology provided in the RLX without ever putting it thru it's paces, to provide an objective, informative, detailed and accurate testimate to the readers, shame on you! You do not do your readership justice.


The Acura RLX is designed at a safety standard to which all other manufactures should strive to achieve...


Sorry for being longwinded, but I had to get it off my chest..

holografique

great post victor

George Knighton

This was the first time I've read this thread.

So I guess there's a half dozen of you driving around every day now with VSA turned off?

Have you ever encountered a situation in which you felt having VSA off might've been a bad idea?

holografique

I pretty much drive with VSA off all the time now. This is new for me as an Acura owner, as I never did this with my 3G TL.

The difference was not really as noticeable in the 3G TL as it is in the RLX. Where I notice it most is in the steering/handling and the gas-pedal / throttle response. Steering feels much more fluid and responsive and the car stops and go's on a whim. I like the car to respond instantly to my changes, not the "delayed" effect you get in the RLX with VSA on.

My assumption on all of this is that Acura put a heavy focus on the 5-star safety rating and needed to make VSA have a stronger effect in order for the RLX to meet those ratings. This is pure speculation on my part.

The only time I leave VSA on in my RLX is when it is most useful: during rain or other "weather" induced hazardous conditions. In my mind, that's where it provides it's true value. As a result, I have yet to encounter a situation where I felt I should have it left it on. Otherwise, I don't like the way it "impairs" the cars true handling and performance abilities.

George Knighton

Okay.... I've spent some time with this now, and I'm prepared to say that I would definitely not want to drive around all of the time with VSA turned off.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I've been to Summit Point with an RLX and obviously Sport Mode and VSA off are the only way to do that.

But it seems to me that VSA is one of the three important signals going to the P-AWS actuators that are a part of the formula designed to keep the car neutral and that with VSA turned off, the car is too easy to get into a surprisingly aggressively oversteering attitude at moderate speeds (50-70). There's some kind of active control still going on, however, because in a high speed turn like Turn 10 the car will not over rotate. It gets to a place and stops.

So I know why you do it. But it's not for me in my daily long commute, I don't think. :-)

And while we're on the subject of sportiness: I would use Sport Mode a lot more often if it were a little easier to get the car into 6th gear under 70 mph!! LOL.... That's just a little too much unless you really mean business.

When driving in regular mode the car downshifts surprisingly aggressively anyway, so I'm fine with the whole car in its regular modes so long as we're talking about my regular drives. I usually drive a total of about 3 hours/day if anybody's curious.

It's an awesome, unflappable suspension when pressed hard. I cannot help thinking that the inclusion of conventional SH-AWD (not Hybrid) would have turned this into the super car of executive saloons.

I know they probably fully intended for the 377 HP Hybrid to do what I want, but you simply can't get one in the first place, and in the second place it's a very different kind of AWD.

Between the battery supply issue and the assembly requirements that mean moving the cars around so much, we're just not going to see enough Hybrid RLX for it to replace what some of us might have preferred with conventional SH-AWD. Even if we could get our hands on the Hybrid, we'd be disappointed when comparing the car to a conventional SH-AWD car that we're used to throwing 70% of the total power to the rear, and 100% of that 70% onto a single wheel if the car perceives that we mean business about it.

Wonderful chassis that could handle a lot more power, and that could handle conventional SH-AWD in a high performance application.

I'm probably the only weirdo thinking in those terms. :-)

George Knighton

What's funny is that even with all the hand assembly and moving of chassis around for that assembly, and even with the use of expensive batteries, the RLX Hybrid SH-AWD is still a surprisingly inexpensive car.

There's a lot of mechanical hardware missing in the Hybrid SH-AWD that would have had to be included for a conventional SH-AWD vehicle.

holografique

You're absolutely right on this. After you mentioning it, I definitely notice it now that I've paid more attention to it.

I think where the VSA off / Sport Mode On combo really works best is when you're doing some serious inner-city driving. Weaving in and out of slow drivers on small tight roads in the inner-city. The delayed response that VSA creates makes you constantly feel like your trying to get the car to be quick and nimble and react to quick sudden changes by other drivers. Especially here in Atlanta where roads are narrow and constantly changing one-way to two-way back to one-way, lots of hustle and bustle through the streets, cyclist, bums, etc. etc. It really has more to do with the delayed throttle response that VSA creates more than anything. I don't think P-AWS is really doing much for inner-city driving since the driving conditions don't lend themselves to taking sharp turns at high speeds.

But when you're out in the burbs on wider roads, less traffic and more spacious turning areas, the VSA off / Sport Mode on combo doesn't become quite as needed and when you do take those wide turns at a faster speed, you do notice the car easily get into over-steering like you said.

This all goes back to my comments about how Acura chooses to present these various driving modes of the car. I still don't feel it's designed and presented in a manner that makes the driver realize just how customizable the car is. I like the way Lexus does it in the GS450 series with the various driving modes you can easily select. Although they took it a step further where suspension changes are engaged when selecting what they call "Sport S/S+" mode.

Rocket_man

Several years ago I lived in Los Angeles. Back then I had an E46 3-series coupe. First car I ever had with electronic stability control. It only activated twice during ownership, but one of those times saved the car and my ass.

I often drove west bound on the 105 freeway and would take the PCH exit near LAX to go home. That exit is a tight 270 degree turn and it was often late at night when I drove it. So I liked to drive through this exit as fast as I could. One night I was driving home and not another car on the highway. I settled into the seat to take my favorite turn and about 3/4 of the way into the turn there was a busted sprinkler head. It was a dry night but this busted sprinkler head had created a little flood right in front of me and I was doing nearly 50 mph. All I could do was let off the gas before I hit the water. Now I'm no race driver, just your average guy, but I've squealed the tires several times on the car. Even if the tires are complaining there is always lateral g's and there is still control of the car. This time I hit that water and all the lateral g's went away. It is a scary feeling! Never happened to me before and it sent my heart rate from 70 to 170 in no time. But before I had a chance to $#i! my pants the car took over. I could feel the brakes and throttle pulsing, blipping, I had no idea what it was doing but it straightened out the car and the slide stopped and I drove off the exit and headed home. If it weren't for that ESC there is no doubt in my mind I would have slid right off the exit into a drop off and some deep vegetation and probably would have totaled the car. Not to mention the damage it would have done to me. Instead I was driving home trying to get my heart rate under control. I never turned ESC off ever again.

The lesson I learned is that you don't know you need VSA/ESC until it is too late. I never would have guessed that sprinkler was flooding the roadway. I couldn't see it until it was too late. Could have been a dear, black ice, kid running into the street, you just can't anticipate. Like most of us I've never had any track training and would not have been able to recover from such an event on my own.

If this link works you can see the exit I'm taking about...

http://goo.gl/maps/dQjdu

George Knighton

I think we all have our favorite ramps that we like to test. :-)

And that's a perfect example of why we should leave the systems as they are most of the time. Thank you very much.

holografique

well, here's another scenario where it helped to turn it OFF. I was caught in the massive snow/ice storm yesterday here in Atlanta. 14-hours on the road in the RLX to get home. I actually had to end up abandoning my baby (luckily parked safely at a BP gas station) and picked up by a friend in a truck to make it home.

What I found was this:

* VSA worked very well in correcting steering as long as you are at least moving 15-20mpg or more.

* VSA worked HORRIBLY when on ice and moving from a completely stopped position. On every instance, as soon as you put gas on the pedal (even in the slightest bit), VSA would immediately detect loss of traction and would start trying to compensate. The end result is that the steering would immediately rock back-n-forth (completely out of my contro) and I would immediately start getting into a side-slide. Only when I turned off VSA did it allow me to keep the car straight when doing the stop-n-go on ice.

So, there....yes, I get it. VSA is a safety feature, but there are times where situations are better left to the driver to deal with certain conditions. There's a reason computers don't run the world.....yet

George Knighton

I'll certainly bear that in mind if I get in a similar situation!

Were you starting off in first or second gear?

holografique

first gear.

George Knighton

I wonder if you'd have had more success starting in 2nd. Maybe somebody who's done that can talk about it.