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just to continue the RDX discussion, any idea why there isn't an RDX Type S yet?
My cynical outlook? Acura knows it would crater TLX Type-S sales and cannibalize MDX Type-S sales.
Realistic outlook? Acura just doesn't have the resources to make this happen, since they've been working on the TLX, new MDX, and a new ILX. People keep forgetting that Acura is a relatively small operation, and they just don't have the same types of resources to throw at cars that other automakers do. I mean, they only have 5 cars total (ok 6 if you include the CDX in China), each currently with only a single variant.
just to continue the RDX discussion, any idea why there isn't an RDX Type S yet?
my guess is not wanting to show up the new MDX. Probably part of the reason the TLX is after the MDX. Also not sure what the market is for Sport Performance SUV.I done see many SQ7 or SQ5 or the comparable MB SUVs.
Nothing wrong with the TLX crowd discussing other (RDX or MDX or ILX) Acura products in our little corner here - but if we're going to do it we need to be respectful and mostly on topic.
my guess is not wanting to show up the new MDX. Probably part of the reason the TLX is after the MDX. Also not sure what the market is for Sport Performance SUV.I done see many SQ7 or SQ5 or the comparable MB SUVs.
BMWUSA has pure M & M**i versions of all its SUV's from the 2 series through the 7 series & sales are good. The two main selling ones are the 3 & 5 series
The M5 version best performer of the X series SUV's looks like:
X5 M50i
4.4-liter BMW M TwinPower Turbo V-8 engine
xDrive, intelligent all-wheel drive
523 HP
22 MPG
4.1 sec 0-60 MPH
X5 M
4.4-liter BMW M TwinPower Turbo V-8
M xDrive all-wheel-drive system
600 HP
18 MPG
3.8 sec 0-60 MPH
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-03-2021 at 07:51 PM.
BMW has pure M & M**i versions of all its SUV's from the 2 series through the 7 series & sales are good. The two main selling ones are the 3 & 5 series
The M5 version best performer of the X series SUV's looks like:
X5 M50i
4.4-liter BMW M TwinPower Turbo V-8 engine
xDrive, intelligent all-wheel drive
523 HP
22 MPG
4.1 sec 0-60 MPH
X5 M
4.4-liter BMW M TwinPower Turbo V-8
M xDrive all-wheel-drive system
600 HP
18 MPG
3.8 sec 0-60 MPH
Let's be honest, we know the Germans like pulling tricks with underrating their power. Despite the Type-S moniker, the MDX-S will likely have its hands full with the X5 x40i, Q7 55TFSI and GLE 450. No need to hurt its feelings by comparing it to the M-sport, SQ or AMG variants (to be fair, they're all likely substantially more expensive than what the Type-S will be).
Let's be honest, we know the Germans like pulling tricks with underrating their power. Despite the Type-S moniker, the MDX-S will likely have its hands full with the X5 x40i, Q7 55TFSI and GLE 450. No need to hurt its feelings by comparing it to the M-sport, SQ or AMG variants (to be fair, they're all likely substantially more expensive than what the Type-S will be).
Was just messing with the request for BMW/AUDI specs. Personally think there are only two real SUV's. The FORD Expedition EP/Lincoln clone & Chevy Suburban/GMC/Caddy clones. Most upscale German SUV's windup in the pickup line at private schools. Many days was stuck behind a Porsche Cayenne Turbo looking at 4 large exhaust finishers rolling along at 10mph under the 45mph speed limit.
Can't beat up on the Cayenne too much my youngest daughter has one & it goes into the school pickup line for my grandson but at least she can actually drive the thing. That said I don't think most SUV's are really all that useful for carrying stuff. More image cars. I might be a Mommy but i don't drive no stink/N Mommy Van.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-03-2021 at 09:02 PM.
The Ford Expedition, Chevy/GMC suburban are the only efficient vehicles for passenger space and towing. All others just create the image of space AND hauling.
just to continue the RDX discussion, any idea why there isn't an RDX Type S yet?
I'm guessing the chassis engine bay won't accept the new 3.0L DOHC V6 turbo, and while Acura could reap the benefits of using the CTR 306HP motor it may not suit the driving style/dynamics of the RDX.
I'm guessing the chassis engine bay won't accept the new 3.0L DOHC V6 turbo, and while Acura could reap the benefits of using the CTR 306HP motor it may not suit the driving style/dynamics of the RDX.
A huge tell would be if there are huge gaps under the hood just like the 2.0 TLX has, just waiting for that bigger V6 to come right in!
The Ford Expedition, Chevy/GMC suburban are the only efficient vehicles for passenger space and towing. All others just create the image of space AND hauling.
I've never compared my 2016 GL450 against the "big boys" but apparently my car is wider than any of the 2021 Expedition/Suburban/Escalade models but a good 10" shorter (nearly 15" against the Suburban). I can fit a Suburban in my garage but I don't think I want to!
I can actually fit 2 adults comfortably in the 3rd row but the trunk somewhat suffers when compared to the competition for cargo. The latest GLS model only grew about 3.5" so it was never about maxing out the cargo area.
Fingers crossed that this is the last large car I will need before I start needing multiples of cars in the driveway.
Its the cylinder heads that get you. V6 vs V8 length is not a big deal in a RWD but would be in a FWD. So you have to go with a V6. Then looking at the heads. The pictures are both 5.0L FORD small blocks. The old pushrod cam in block. Then you take the same 5.0 block spec & mount DOHC heads on it.
I've never compared my 2016 GL450 against the "big boys" but apparently my car is wider than any of the 2021 Expedition/Suburban/Escalade models but a good 10" shorter (nearly 15" against the Suburban). I can fit a Suburban in my garage but I don't think I want to!
I can actually fit 2 adults comfortably in the 3rd row but the trunk somewhat suffers when compared to the competition for cargo. The latest GLS model only grew about 3.5" so it was never about maxing out the cargo area.
Fingers crossed that this is the last large car I will need before I start needing multiples of cars in the driveway.
Without looking up the numbers I think the GL is closer to the FORD Explorer & its Chevy/Dodge counterparts in Cargo. My daughters Porsche has less than an Explorer. The European & Japanese SUV's are not really meant to be competitive with the big US models as they are sold worldwide & have to deal with countries that have less than ideal street room for them.
The 2016 Mercedes has 16 cubic feet of cargo space behind its third row, 49.4 cubic feet behind the second row and 93.8 cubic feet of room behind the front row.
The 2020 Suburban has 39.3 cubic feet of cargo space behind its third row, 76.7 cubic feet behind the second row, and a maximum of 121.7 cubic feet with both rows folded down.
The 2021 Expedition EL has 36 cubic feet of cargo space behind its third row, 79.6 cubic feet behind the second row, and a maximum of 121.6 cubic feet with both rows folded down
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-04-2021 at 12:38 PM.
The 2016 Mercedes has 16 cubic feet of cargo space behind its third row, 49.4 cubic feet behind the second row and 93.8 cubic feet of room behind the front row.
The 2020 Suburban has 39.3 cubic feet of cargo space behind its third row, 76.7 cubic feet behind the second row, and a maximum of 121.7 cubic feet with both rows folded down.
The 2021 Expedition EL has 36 cubic feet of cargo space behind its third row, 79.6 cubic feet behind the second row, and a maximum of 121.6 cubic feet with both rows folded down
If I subtract the "excess" cargo space of the Suburban from the GL450, the third row of the 2 cars are comparable. Using the same strategy against the Expedition yields 10 cubic ft more space in the third row. That's like a stretch limo. LOL.
If I subtract the "excess" cargo space of the Suburban from the GL450, the third row of the 2 cars are comparable. Using the same strategy against the Expedition yields 10 cubic ft more space in the third row. That's like a stretch limo. LOL.
With the subtraction would you really want 200lbs of these breathing dog breath in you face for three hours. They fit real nice way way back there.
Seriously. I have zero likeable interest in an SUV, but do have specific requirements for one. So I buy what fits. Had a number of Explores but they stared running short on interior space. Will never, no-how, no-way buy a van. Great boxes on wheels but they are so butt ugly, pun interned.
FWIW had a few station wagons back in the 1970's. A Volvo which we out grew as the kids grew & a pair of FORD Country Squires complete with the fake wood trim. What was slick about them was an actual tight 3rd row with a pair of inward facing small seats.
Its the cylinder heads that get you. V6 vs V8 length is not a big deal in a RWD but would be in a FWD. So you have to go with a V6. Then looking at the heads. The pictures are both 5.0L FORD small blocks. The old pushrod cam in block. Then you take the same 5.0 block spec & mount DOHC heads on it.
In the car they take up this much more space
OHV motors are pretty compact ICE, great packaging. Honda's J-series is fairly compact engine for a OHC since it's 60o bank angle and SOHC despite being VTEC and 4 valve/cylinder.
The new V6 is DOHC so curious how'll wide the heads will be and whether it's be cam over bucket or cam over cam follower and how it compares to the J.
A huge tell would be if there are huge gaps under the hood just like the 2.0 TLX has, just waiting for that bigger V6 to come right in!
IIRC, the RDX development lead stated in an interview that the platform was designed to accommodate a V6, and that's when the Type-S rumors started. Why they didn't end up putting the V6T in there is anyone's guess, but if it was due to fear of stepping on the TLX or MDX Type-S' toes, that would be such a cop out, as there are customers for every vehicle size/class. And as long as they still buy from your brand, then what's the problem?
I don't buy the resource excuse either, since they clearly have the means for a 6-figure sports car, PMC, and all those racing efforts...not to mention all that marketing hoopla about performance. If anything, I would imagine the RDX-S selling more than the MDX-S as it would be the only way to avoid the gutless 4 banger in that model. And didn't Jon Ikeda say at some point that there would be a Type-S for every model in their lineup? Then again, we should know by now to take everything they say with a grain of salt
IIRC, the RDX development lead stated in an interview that the platform was designed to accommodate a V6, and that's when the Type-S rumors started. Why they didn't end up putting the V6T in there is anyone's guess, but if it was due to fear of stepping on the TLX or MDX Type-S' toes, that would be such a cop out, as there are customers for every vehicle size/class. And as long as they still buy from your brand, then what's the problem?
I don't buy the resource excuse either, since they clearly have the means for a 6-figure sports car, PMC, and all those racing efforts...not to mention all that marketing hoopla about performance. If anything, I would imagine the RDX-S selling more than the MDX-S as it would be the only way to avoid the gutless 4 banger in that model. And didn't Jon Ikeda say at some point that there would be a Type-S for every model in their lineup? Then again, we should know by now to take everything they say with a grain of salt
Perhaps they're saving an RDX Type S for the MMC. TLX-S this spring, MDX-S this summer, ILX-replacement fall or winter, then maybe RDX-S & MMC in the spring of 2022?
Perhaps they're saving an RDX Type S for the MMC. TLX-S this spring, MDX-S this summer, ILX-replacement fall or winter, then maybe RDX-S & MMC in the spring of 2022?
Probably. Use the Disney strategy of keeping MCU content fresh. Don't let too much new stuff out at once...
Perhaps they're saving an RDX Type S for the MMC. TLX-S this spring, MDX-S this summer, ILX-replacement fall or winter, then maybe RDX-S & MMC in the spring of 2022?
I have absolutely nothing to back this up, and no knowledge of the tooling or engineering, but I'm thinking the RDX Type-S won't be released until the new generation, rather than MMC. The reason I say this is because I think the underhood area needs to be enlarged. Look at the TLX and MDX ... they have that elongated hood to fit the V6 turbo under there. It's one of the main reasons I really don't like the styling of the TLX, and I'm starting to not like the 4G MDX for the same reason. I suspect the 4G RDX will have the same look to allow for both the DWB front suspension as well as fitting the V6 under there in the next iteration of the model. They'll sell a boatload of them, and likely put the final dagger in the TLX. The 4G RDX will likely be coming in the next 2-3yrs anyways.
Second the opinion that RDX-S will be next generation. Actually this topic has been discussed in the RDX forum. I am among the camp who think there are engineering reasons (mainly packaging, we will know if this is the case when TLX-S comes). Besides, RDX A-spec got a few things that should only be available on Type-S, e.g. fake diffuser, sport+ designation, unique tailpipes. One can say that Acura did these to highlight the sportiness focus of the brand, but I interpreted them as Acura had planned Type-S as Sport Hybrid in the beginning, then the powertrain became V6T and they could not fit it easily without certain mechanical changes, so they need to amortize the initial R&D and see if they can revisit having RDX-S when 3G generates enough profits to cover the R&D cost. So they did not need to keep the gap between A-spec and Type-S like on other models. When the project lead talked about V6, he probably mean the NA V6 used by sports hybrid.
In terms of resource, Acura is a NA-only brand. Even being the best-seller, RDX total volume is no more than 70k/yr. So when we say resource, we are talking about that Acura really need to finance itself. The comparatively small volume directly limits what they can do in the first place.
Acura and Honda of North America share resources from engineering to supply chain management to manufacturing/assembly facilities so Acura gets the benefit of economies of scale from Honda North America and some from Japan.
Acura's sales/production is probably limited to the size of their market and how well their cars and SUV's compete in that markets. SUV's have been fine, cars fair to poor.
And like clockwork, this guy jumps in again with his economies of scale and resource sharing bull.
Rather than go down the path of providing facts that prove you wrong and get posts deleted again, I'll try a different tact.
Go ahead and prove your statement to be true. If you can't, then you're just some random internet poster spewing BS, just like you love to claim about others who say something you don't agree with.
^ to your statement that the material cost for a $25k Accord was $5k, then you went to $2k,
Here's some actual facts from a 2009 EPA study by the global management consultants McKinsey & Company on the cost analysis of average US car production .
Material costs is ~1/2 or ~$12k for $24k car, again proving you're just some random internet poster spewing BS.
The detailed material cost and build cost for any car manufacturer is closely for individual cars (Lopez/VW lawsuit from GM gets into that) held but McKinsey & Company have reverse engineered theses costs from a variety of public financial statements and other sources. The 1/2 is sorta in the mid-range from what I've read and been told for majority of vehicles, may be lower or higher but figure 40-60% range for vast majority. Oh and your claim that design and development cost are a large part of a car retail cost? It's less than 7%.
Few car makers have been able to grow the business organically from nothing and be successful, one of the few is Tesla who started out using Lotus chassis and outsourced motors/batteries/controllers to fabricating a larger number of major parts and subassemblies. Pretty amazing what they've accomplished in less than two decades.
Interesting info from Legend2TL. However, I would argue that manufacturing-related costs are necessary evils and may not be easily reduced. Therefore, R&D (although small in %) is the easy target for cost control. I guess it also depends how (much) Honda bills Acura for R&D cost.
In comparison,GLC yearly volume is around 350k from what I read. Not trying to find excuses for Acura, just that I understand why Acura cannot be tier-1 as long as they stay NA only.
Acura will make RDX type S when their marketing department will be sure they can sell enough of them to be profitable. Likely next gen. IMHO.
By the time it comes out, electrified CUV's will be all the rage and this hypothetical RDX Type S will lose not only the fuel econ aspect but also possibly performance.
You also have this crazy electrified Hummer coming out that makes everyone feel like an action hero. Even if it's not marketed to the same RDX Type S folks, the alpha dog electric will bring along the little pup electrics!
Interesting info from Legend2TL. However, I would argue that manufacturing-related costs are necessary evils and may not be easily reduced. Therefore, R&D (although small in %) is the easy target for cost control. I guess it also depends how (much) Honda bills Acura for R&D cost.
In comparison,GLC yearly volume is around 350k from what I read. Not trying to find excuses for Acura, just that I understand why Acura cannot be tier-1 as long as they stay NA only.
Yeah, always gonna have manufacturing cost. It's been going down over time with robotics and automation, that's been especially true for welding the chassis and painting.
As for Acura, from the following American Honda study for their impact on US economy it shows that Acura is just a division of American Honda in terms of their American operations from design to manufacturing.
IDK how they do the accounting but probably factors in all the various use of Honda facilities and resources.
02-01-2021, 05:41 PM
Personally think there are only two real SUV's. The FORD Expedition EP/Lincoln clone & Chevy Suburban/GMC/Caddy clones. Most upscale German SUV's windup in the pickup line at private schools. Many days was stuck behind a Porsche Cayenne Turbo looking at 4 large exhaust finishers rolling along at 10mph under the 45mph speed limit.
OHV motors are pretty compact ICE, great packaging. Honda's J-series is fairly compact engine for a OHC since it's 60o bank angle and SOHC despite being VTEC and 4 valve/cylinder. 
