SSFTSX

Thats you agree now. The Car is real Lexus not a rebadging work from Toyota.
TSX will not only need upgrades in information system but also in performance. I doubt current engine is upto to task with Hybrid torque. Since from Honda past it wont give anything to TSX without EuroAccord consideration.

(Cj)

Yeah, I never said the HS was a rebadged Toyota. It's actually a great idea, on Toyota's part. The design is a bit bland, but at least it's not as ugly as the Avensis. I think where the TSX is concerned Honda should change some sheet metal so that it can be it's own model (even if it still has the same powertrain). All they need to do is make a production version of this design:





With the addition of a SH-AWD model with a V6, the TSX should be fine.

SSFTSX

Actually the basic design of TSX is fine. It is more of evolution of previous design. the picture you posted is car too fat and low. Not imposing tall looking car. TSX needs LED lights/better Rims/Aerokit bumpers/HDD navigation

Lexus is not half baked effort like TSX where LKA is omitted. SH-AWD adds weight, decrease fuel economy and performance. there is no point in overcomplicating TSX.
.

HS250 is well proportioned to its size.






3600lbs CVT hybrid Camry is faster than 3500lbs Auto TSX on Premium fuel.
There is data sheet for the whole test.

(Cj)

I think LED lights/better Rims/Aerokit bumpers/HDD navigation would be nice and all of which I think would be probable. The only problem is the TSX in it's current form can't be released in any global market outside of NA. I don't know how Acuras would sell in JP, Euro, etc with only two relatively large sedans and two big crossovers. A TSX sized vehicle is needed for global success.

I'm not surprised by the fact that the Camry Hybrid is faster than the TSX. The TSX is pretty heavy and the Camry has loads more torque (thanks to the electric motor). The HS250 might be even faster since it's smaller. Do you know if the HS is lighter or heavier than the Camry?

Oh yeah and the design of the TSX is very nice now, but it's still just a Euro Accord. I personally think the TSX looks better than the IS, ES, or HS, but it's going to need some differentiation if it goes global.

SSFTSX

Hybrid Camry is 300lbs heavier than comparably equiped 4 Cylinder XLE Camry.
But i bet HS250H will get better mpg at higher freeway speeds as it is more aerodynamic. unless HS is too heavy because of Lexus sound dreadening/comfort.
TSX is better looking than Lexus IS/ES but on HS i will hold my opinion untill it is seen in person. I like the way Lexus advertize HS. They put the car in front page of there Web six month ahead of sale.
I think HS will be wisper quiet.and Lexus marketing research thinks 60% of buyers would consider a hybrid.


It seems Acura launches vehicle without considering consumer research as they simply rebadge stuff from one market to another.
It would be better for Acura to have muscular version of TSX rebadged as TL intead of basing it on US accord and making oversize. Lexus ES/GS are same size but with different prices.

I dont expect major investment from Honda in TSX. All it can do is what is available on TL/RL to implement in TSX. but that will increase the cost and weight of car. and it will become uncompetitive.
Honda is essentially using same engine for MDX/RL/TL. with pretty similar horspower.

LukeaTron

This thread should be retitled "Why SSFTSX wants to blow Lexus". Snooooooze.

Colin

So what orifice does Audi use?

wackura

If the TSX were to become a hybrid pussy car Acura would have no answer to the A4 or the IS250 etc, and even if they offered it as an option it wouldn't make for a great hybrid, so if you're going to ponder a hybrid Acura don't look at the TSX.

I think the chance of a V6 with AWD is looking good considering thhey made room for both. Some say that would eat TL sales but that's if you assume the TL and TSX are otherwise equal which they are not. At the moment the TL has a more sophisticated tech package but aside from that it's a bigger car that looks fashonable on a 60 year old while the TSX has a look that apeals to a 30 year old. I could have afforded an '09 TL but it doesn't have the character I want right now. However I would take it's features any day.

SSFTSX

You can pretty much bet on HS250 to be faster than TSX Auto by wide margin. Almost equal to 6MT TSX. HS250 Tech package is even better than TL. Just the front View 190 degree Cam/HUD/LDW/LKA/CMBS for electric power steering.
Toyota has larger supplier base and much bigger hybrid market. Toyota sales more hybrid around the world are more than Alll Honda V6 combined from TL/MDX/RL/Odyssey/Pilot. So Hybrid is the way to go. If Honda does not introduce high power hybrid by now. They gap in investment/experiance/technology will be too wide. It already happened to Honda in diesel.

JD23

Will the HS250 handle like a wet sack of potatoes like all other Toyota hybrids, and most other Toyotas in general?

SSFTSX

It is not Toyota. It is lexus. So comfort/quietness/technology/quality is No1 Criteria. Hybrid Camry with 16 inch stock is no worse than 4cylinder Accord/Camry. I doubt there will be big difference.

That was 3 years ago. with Z-rated 18inch rubber. 63.5mph slolam.
In edmunds test Auto TSX achieves only 22mpg. which was achievd by GS450h 3 years ago with 4200lbs car.

JD23

That's impressive, except that one could buy two TSXs for the price of one GS450h.

(Cj)

The Accord Hybrid was pretty much almost exactly what you're talking about (except for the fact that it was a V6). The TSX will probably lose quite a few sales from the HS, but it should continue to do well with young singles. The HS will steal some of the ES's market (families and seniors). The IS is the TSX's main competitor and it outsells most vehicles in the segment including the TSX and TL.

SSFTSX

I merely point out that Lexus has the technology years ago to achieve fuel efficiency of 4 cylinder TSX with performance of V12 sedan. (Even V8 will have difficulty in moving 4200lb car at such speeds unless is turbo). with super silent/super comfort.
Toyota/Lexus is in business of Hybrid revolution. while Acura has completely missed the bus.
Lexus even added AFS for HS250 (Only RL has this in Acura). Hybrid is considered high water mark in Lexus line up for its size. HS250 is more compact and sporty looking from pixtures than TSX. Its turning circle should be smaller than TSX.

SSFTSX

4cylinder HS250H should be faster than 6 cylinder IS250. HS250h takes the last argument in favor of TSX by offering enhanced fuel economy/Standard equipment/Interior space which IS250 lacks. So TSX/IS250/HS250 are all playing to same audience. I think for performance folks will just buy IS350.

LukeaTron

I want to interrupt your Lexus cheerleading for a second to point out that Honda is betting on pure electric, which is a longer term goal than hybrid technology but also where the technology is heading. Just as Toyota looks to be way out ahead of every one in the hybrid market today, Honda is going to be in that position 10 or 15 years from now. I don't know that they really need to be too worried about moving on Toyota's turf for the immediate future. They're slow playing this one.

JD23

The GS450h is extremely heavy because of the weight added by the hybrid system, so I don't see how the performance is quite as impressive as you make it out to be. Hybrid systems add weight and reduce handling prowess.

SSFTSX

Actually it is impressive system. It may not be as nimble as 550I but it is certainly more refined and as fast as V12 Sedans in mid range speeds. The manage to achieve that in April 2005 model year when it was presented.

wackura

I really love how the TSX handles and looks inside and out not to mention its features. It bothers me that Lexus requires you to stop the car to operate the nav system. You treat acceleration, size and mpg as if they're the only performance markers that matter. It's quite possible that the next TSX or whatever could be lesser in all three areas and still be a more desireble car to my tastes.

SSFTSX

Honda has already lost hybrid/diesel market to Toyota. There is very little confidence that they can manage anything better than Toyota.
15 years too long time in Auto Industry. Honda may not even exist as independent just like Nissan/Mazda/Daihatsu etc.

SSFTSX

Sales of car directly depends on raw numbers like interior space/mpg/brand name. Enthusiasts have very little influence on sales
Lexus has done survey where 60% of buyers would have chosen hybrid car for entry level Luxury. Honda does not have technology so better not even ask such question.

LukeaTron

Jesus fucking christ man, do you work for Toyota or something? Should we all bow in reverence to the all mighty Toyota?

wackura

What people say they want and what they actualy want are two different things. American auto makers claimed this discrepency was part of the reason they created so many of the wrong kind of car. Everybody overestimates their desire to go green.

But that's beside the point. There's no reason Acura can't be a succesful niche brand. If you were incharge they would clone Toyota products and that wouldn't be much fun. I applaud Honda's failure if in the process they create a car I want to buy.

(Cj)

SSFTSX, has a point, but I think Honda will be able to survive (just look at all the cost cutting). I think the only thing in jeopardy at Hodna is the Acura brand...

(Cj)

That was my thinking when the HS came out. All the people that only bought the TSX for fuel efficiency will now have an even better option. That could easily wipe out 20% of the TSX's sales. Most people I know that bought the TSX only bought it for the sole reason of it being a high mileage luxury car. The TSX should still do well though since it will likely still be cheaper than the HS when similarly equipped.

The HS will most definitely be faster than the IS250, but the IS350 will still have a big market since it primarily fights the G37 and 335. Also the new IS250/350c comes out and that should help the IS hold it's ground in the Lexus lineup. The ES should continue to do well because it's larger than both the IS and HS.

Oh and one more thought. I wonder why Lexus didn't just make an ES hybrid (instead of the whole new model)? The ES is already just a rebadged Camry.

JD23

No, we should also bow to Audi. I don't think you realize that everything Honda does is wrong, while everything Toyota, Nissan, BMW, VW, MB, and Hyundai do is right. It's amazing that Honda isn't bankrupt like the Big Three considering their products are so inferior.

JD23

On topic again, it would be nice if Acura would replace the painted plastic trim around the center console with the metal coated plastic from the TL; the metal coated plastic has a much more luxurious look, IMO.

(Cj)

Some optional wood grain would be nice too. I think that was available on the first gen pre MMC?

LuvMyTSX

Plood (fake wood) was standard on the parchment interior 2004-2008.

davidspalding

SSFTSX, you're repeatedly hijacking this thread to trumpet Toyo/Lexus and how they're superior. That does nothing to contribute to this thread's topic, and frankly, it's getting monotonous and boring. Except that your eccentric approach to grammar and syntax is comedic, a little.

Let's get this back on topic and discuss improving the TSX, or I'm outta here.

(Cj)

Yeah, I thought I remembered that. Well it would be nice if real wood was optional on TSX/TL (and maybe even RDX).

LuvMyTSX

x 89458674894876748494

SSFTSX

The only luxury option in TSX is Leather/Navigation/HID that comes standard. From Lexus statements it seems most of it will be standard on HS250.

The HS will most definitely be faster than the IS250, but the IS350 will still have a big market since it primarily fights the G37 and 335. Also the new IS250/350c comes out and that should help the IS hold it's ground in the Lexus lineup. The ES should continue to do well because it's larger than both the IS and HS.
ES will need V6 hybrid system which would have raised the price beyond $40K.
The idea is to create 4 cylinder hybrid car that is faster than other 4cylinder cars. They have upgraded regular 4cylinder Camry for 2010 for 180ft-lb of torque at lower rpm. So TSX does not offer any performance advantage in 4cylinder category even with premium fuel.
Ideally it should have 240bhp 4cylinder by now. so no increase in weight and cost for better performance.
TSX is Japanese built car. Adding V6 will add alteast $4K in dollar terms.
By not investing in Acura to make it tier-1 brand around the globe in past 20 years will put an end to Honda in long term. In 1990 Japanese market was twice the size of today and in next 10 years the market size will become into half of today. So you are looking at total market size of 25% of 1990s in 2015. and most of the cars will be lowerpriced small cars. So there isnt any profits there.
Alot of technologies is flowing into Chinese/Koreans/India from Europeans. It is especially in German interest to wipe the profits from mass market Japanese manufacturer in Asia so they dont have money to compete in upscale segments.

Colin

It's like talking to a wall....

wackura

wildly off topic

LuvMyTSX

Seriously

For something on topic, I wouldn't mind seeing the smart key thing, and cooled seats. Although I know cooled seats will probably never make it to the TSX. A V6 would be nice, too, for some extra power.

CarbonGray Earl

And drawing upon many different makes on models to beat down on a TSX update that hasn't been made yet. Its like saying Barack Obama has failed. He hasn't even stepped into office yet. Likewise, the TSX hasn't been updated yet, and those models he point out haven't been made or priced here yet.

dom

I'll add to that the sport bumper (or whatever its called) as standard and 18" wheels as standard as well.

CarbonGray Earl

I'd love to see a V6, but I'd like to see if they could somehow wring some more NA power out of the K24.

(Cj)

I think the ES would be fine with the same I4 hybrid system the Camry (HS) has, but it's probably good marketing to have a "separate" hybrid in the lineup.

Oh and about the TSX and Acura. That's why I was saying Acura should give the TSX a separate design. I think the sport4 concept is a good place to start.

And most of the loss of profit of Japanese automakers can be attributed to the artificially high yen. If the yen is allowed to fall in price the Japanese automakers would be doing a lot better. Honda has even considered leaving Japan because of the problem:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/ceo-stro...ave-japan.html