I know Acura believes the 3-Series, G & IS are competitors for the new TSX, but let's be real. As much as I can appreciate the TSX, it's not a V6 RWD sedan. I know many buyers won't even look at a $30k 4-cylinder car.

With that said, when you compare the TSX to it's closest competition, how does it stack up?

Just for fun (and the purpose of this comparison), I built each of the following vehicles as similarly equipped to the TSX w/ Tech Package as possible. Each vehicle is similar in size to the TSX, FWD and sold by a premium/luxury brand, with the expeption of the VW. Each vehicle is also powered by a 4-cylinder engine (5-cylinder for the Volvo).

*All prices include the Destination Fee.


TSX w/ Tech: $32775.00

Audi A4 2.0T (FWD model): $38350 ($5575 more than the TSX)

Saab 9-3 2.0T: $37065 ($4290 more than the TSX)

Volvo S40 T5: $36464 ($3689 more than the TSX)

Volkswagen GLI: $32960 ($185 more than the TSX)

Yes, I realize each vehicle can probably be had for less than MSRP, but in my opinion I don't see why anyone would expect the TSX to be priced any cheaper than it already is. It may not be the best bargain on the market, but it doesn't seem overpriced at all to me.

What do you guys think?

 

I agree. I think its priced right. A lot of bang for your buck at 32K.

But, some may put more value on things like power, style and size which can't really can't be correlated like features can.

 

 

Also, people don't often think about cars in terms of their optioned prices, but rather their base prices. Since the TSX base price is pretty high, people complain because they think, "Well that's overpriced!" without realizing that there are basically no options for it besides the Technology Package and that it comes substantially better equipped than most other cars in its segment.

 

And for those buyers there is the Pontiac G8. The largest RWD V8 powered sedan you can buy for in America $30k.

I do get what you're saying and agree with it, but that is why I compared the TSX to the cars above. None of them have a significant size or power advantage over the TSX (excluding the S40 which has approx. 40 more hp, but conversely, is a bit smaller).

With increasing CAFE standards I have a feeling we'll be seeing more 4-cylinder cars in the future. MB has even talked about bringing over an entry-level 4-cylinder car.

 

Very good point.

 

35 lb-ft of torque could be significant for some. As could the dual clutch transmission in the GLI. There are many, some may even say insignificant differences that can lead someone to another car.

Your original question is I think asking, if the TSX is priced fairly? It absolutely is, no question IMO. But that alone isn't always enough. So if you're in a round about way asking "why would anyone buy these 4 cars over a TSX" it isn't as simple as comparing prices and features.

 

The TSX sits squarely in the middle ground. It offers features, content, materials, and warranty of the top Europeans at a better price point, attracting those that want the luxury items that are options in other brands.

At the same time, it uses a drivetrain from more pedestrian cars from the mass market like Toyota and Honda. The Acura brand (hopefully) provides a dealer experience that is a step higher than those "mass market" cars.

In the end this means that depending on what you value, the TSX will 'steal' sales from both sides (mass market and luxury).

 

Well, if the topic is to measure if the TSX is still a "great value" as the first generation was in 2-3 reviews I read before buying, I suspect the answer is 'yes.' In fact, thinking over my oatmeal this morning, I was realizing that if Acura had added in some of the things that people are pulling their hair out over (sarcasm) (e.g. a V6, SH-AWD, keyless ignition, keyless unlocking, etc., yada yada yada) -- which are all good things to shop for -- then the base price probably would've risen. Then we'd have had something different to squawk over, not the feature set and the enhancements, but the hike in price.

I think Acura's probably thinking, keep their entry level, upscale sedan nicely appointed, a good package of contemporary features, nice performance, and still squeak in a few thou$and less than direct equivalents. In that strategy, this '09 TSX can't be a disappointment. Can I hear an 'amen?'

 

amen

 

I may be in the minority here - I personally would rather pay a higher price and get a more powerful engine and SH-AWD, than to get a "value" entry-level luxury wannabee sedan.

Yes, the pricing right now is excellent for "value" if that is what you want.

 

Depends on what side of the equation you're on. I spent about $6000 MORE than I'd planned to when I started shopping, to get a TSX. The only alternatives were cars 5 years older (and no longer under warranty) or cars with some of my wants/needs, and some things I'd have to compromise on. With the TSX ... no compromises. And I got it for only a little more than I was going to pay for a comparable Accord coupe, with fewer amenities. In that equation, the "value" was very clear.

YMMV.

 

Why do people keep insisting the TSX absolutely must be a one trick pony?

There's even a Corola sporty version; even the lowest car on that totem pole comes with options.

 

Then the TSX isn't the car for you. The whole purpose of the TSX is to have a value, entry-level vehicle. If you want a more powerful engine and SH-AWD the new TL should fit the bill (if the rumors are accurate). If the TL is a bit too big for your tastes, there is still a very real chance that there is a TSX Type-S in the works. If it gets the turbo-4 and SH-AWD from the RDX I would expect pricing of around $34k for the base model and $36-37k for a loaded model w/ Tech Package.

 

The new TSX definitly is priced nicely. You can't honestly expect Acura to not up the pricing that much for all the added technologies their putting into the car. If you didn't want to pay that much for a TSX get a 1st gen.

Also I'm interested to hear people's opinions on how the TSX is either a "bang-for-the-buck" or just "I didn't feel like paying for more things" since many of the cars we compare the TSX to like the 3-series, A4, IS, and others. I always hear that people say the TSX is better since it costs less than a similarly equipped "other car", but the other car isn't ONLY similarly equipped. It has more power, ie nicer engine, more space, more features, etc. So in reality the TSX really just costs less because it offers less. Or is it?

 

sorry to say, price is really irrelevant here. the new tsx is quite literally the most disappointing acura i've ever seen. I was really expecting wonders (based on how nice the 2004-2008's were), but considering its based on the accord, i had a feeling this was going to happen.

bottom line is, all of the competitor cars mentioned above are beautifully designed. the new tsx is going to bomb, because it deserves to.

i'm really crossing my fingers for the new TL, i seriously hope they don't shatter that too. honda/acura seriously need new direction in exterior design. i have been loyal through and through, but its getting tougher and tougher to stand up for them as of late. the accord is disgusting, the tsx is disgusting, seriously what's happening?

where did the prelude go, and the rsx/integra? the civic si is crap, the company is falling apart. don't get me wrong the cars are great, they're powerful, reliable, and probably the best cars in their classes, but they're getting UGLY, who wants an ugly car?

 

Lots of people it seems:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2720069.shtml



(I don't think the new TSX is ugly at all . Then again I like the Accord, especially the Coupe )

 

"I don't think it's ugly, I just like it better when I'm not looking at (the front)." (To misquote Mickey Rourke in BARFLY.)

Don't hold back, Heehaaw, tell us how you really feel.

 

I don't think the 09 can be classified as ugly.

Especially when comparing it to a Jetta.

 

I don't think so, though anyone can find the "penny-pinching" differences. Plastic here, less insulation there, sound of door, feel of steering, blah blah blah.

As for "price vs. value," .... Not exactly apples to apples, but enjoy this NY Times video review of the 128i, and watch for the punchline.

 

I really like the 09 Styling, but I like the EuroAccord due to the grill a little better than the TSX. I need to see one in person and for that matter on different color bodies. Not too crazy about the wheels either. They are not ugly, just plain.

 

Hmm, I think price is quite relevant, I mean I'm not rich enough as to be able to buy any car I want. And also, this thread is about "Pricing Discussion," so I think price is very important.

Styling, it's really a matter of taste, and it's a very subjective feeling. For the TSX, the only problem to me is the grille, the overall styling is great IMO.

The Civic Si is a pretty good car, it looks quite nice in person too. I have driven it too, and it feels like a RSX-S 4dr (I worked at a Honda's dealership before). The Civic Si is no Type R, but that's the closest thing we can get here, and the FD2 Type R is simply stunning. But then, may be you were only talking about the styling of the Civic Si? If so, I'd agree that the Si coupe is ugly, but the sedan looks good to me.

 

Yup, you are absolutely right! The new TSX is not for me at all. I love my 04 TSX, and I was hoping that the new TSX would be a significant improvement from my current car, so I can move up to it. However, it does not appear to be the case now. I want something more powerful and more luxurious. I guess you are right again that the new TL is my only hope in Acura now, since the new RL is so ridiculously ugly with that revolting grille.

In the meantime, I am totally drooling over the 2009 A4 Avant - have you seen how absolutely gorgeous and powerful it is? While Acura merely improved the TSX's torque a little bit and gave it an ugly grille, its alleged competitors have moved on to much bigger and better things already.

 

I too am impressed with the new A4, especially the torque output of the new/upgraded 2.0T.

Still, you will pay a hefty premium for the added performance and "luxury". Both in terms of the actual sales price, as well as in the number of unscheduled trips you'll be making to the dealers service department.

After owning 2 VWAG lemons, ugh, I mean cars, I can't see me going back anytime soon.

 

^^^The '09 A4 is quite the looker... and it would appear that it also has the guts to be fun to drive.

As I consider what my future options are, I wonder why we keep speaking of the "premium" that we pay for other marques like Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB. Personally, because I believe a vast majority of Acura owners are value-shoppers, I tend to place the "discount" moniker on us...

After all, isn't that what the data tells us? If every other "similarly equipped" vehicle is priced thousands higher, than aren't we all paying a "discount" for Acura's lack of performance and "luxury" compared to the supposed class it fits?

I say some of this with tongue in cheek, but I think you get the gist of where I'm going with this. For me personally, I bought the TSX because it *was* a great value. It does many things well, but it doesn't excel at anything in particular. I cross-shopped the 3-series, TL, and C-Class when I was shopping, and could've afforded any of them "similarly equipped" to my TSX, but I made my decision based on bang for the buck.

Now, I just think I'm looking for more. The '09 remains essentially an aesthetic makeover, w/ immaterial performance improvements IMO. When I decide to buy again, I tend to believe I'll simply be paying "market value" versus a "premium"...

 

As has been mentioned in a few threads, it's suspected that the next step in your path to "move up" in power, or luxury, is the TL. I've driven a 2007 TL (loaner), it was certainly very nice. A coworker has a TL-S, and it's pretty damn cool. Not sure I'd want the mileage of it, but.... I get the impresson from various members on the various boards that the TL-S is the apex of the Acura line-up.

So, not to condescend or outright contradict you, but I think the rationale of buyers moving "up" from a 1st gen TSX to the '09 model is not the Acura strategy. The TSX is the "gateway drug" to the Acura line. Expecting the '09 to wow a current TSX owner is beginning to appear (at least to me) as a dream. 'Course, my perspective is arcane (20 year Jeep owner, recent Acura initiate.)

 

Definitely. When you buy Audi, BMW, etc, its not really a premium, your paying for MORE things/features.

 

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Even when compared to the TL, similarly-equipped, less powerful models from BMW & Audi cost significantly more. Sure, they offer things like keyless start & more color combinations, but you'll pay for it. Nearly everything is an extra charge. (e.g. extra for metallic paint, extra for real leather, extra for xenon headlights, etc.). A FWD A4 2.0T with just a couple options costs as much as a new fully-loaded TSX w/ Tech Package. It offers an engine w/ more torque, but way less in terms of gadgets/creature comforts when priced similarly.

 

What I mean is usually if you compare "similarly equipped" models between acura and audi/bmw/etc, the other brand is usually more expensive, but you get more so it isn't paying MORE for a similarly equipped vehicle but paying MORE to get MORE.

 

Please explain what you mean by "more"?

 

^ I mean like more features, more things that a TSX does not have, such as adaptive front lighting, adaptive cruise control, stronger more powerful engine, more space. What I'm trying to say is that the other cars offer more, which is a justification as to why they are priced higher when "similarly equipped". Like the current A4 has got little subtle touches I noticed and really enjoy, such as lighting in the back foot area when the rear doors are open, a very very subtle ambient lighting on the door latches for at night.

Anyway, main idea is that the TSX doesn't offer as much as these other vehicles, which is why it is priced lower.

 

Okay, more power I get, but the rest not so much. Sure there are differences in exact feature content, but generally speaking, you get more for your money with Acura. Let me switch this up a bit. Instead of "similarly-equipped", lets compare feature content of a base FWD A4 2.0T with a base U.S.-Spec 2009 TSX, both of which have similar pricetags (just under $30k).

The Audi has unheated cloth seats, 16" wheels, no homelink, no USB iPod interface, no XM, etc.

 

so funny that a lot of people who were reviewing the new TSX at the NY Auto Show have said that the new TSX competes with the BMW 3 series, G35, and A4. They all mentioned that these vehicles although $2000-5000 more, enthusiasts will be drawn to these cause they offer RWD and AWD options.

 

I know! The more I understand what this vehicle is about, the less I think it is a competitor of these other premium brands... BUT, Acura did previously state that the TSX was aiming squarely at the A4 etc. While that was not far off with the current A4, the new 2009 A4 is going to get such significant improvements that the new TSX just cannot compare any more.

If only Acura decided to put out a performance level TSX with a V6 or 4-cylinder with turbo, together with the base 4 cylinder engine NOW, then it would give us current TSX owners to move up to it, and to directly compete with the new A4 and alike. OK, people will start telling me that it probably is Acura's strategy to do that in a couple of years' time blah blah blah... but guess what? The competitors are moving up so fast that Acura cannot be this conservative and it must just step up to the game right now.

 

I think we're *almost* saying the same thing --- except what you're connoting as "value" is what I'm interpreting as a "discount" for the entry level lux/sporty sedan class. Acura stands on its own in terms of bang for the buck IMO because it can't sell it's brand for what its competitors price their cars... additionally, they lack any standout feature that sets them apart from any of the competition. I really thought they were on to something with SH-AWD as I've driven the RDX and new MDX, but it's not working its way into the TSX at this point as an option.

As far as the TSX and its class goes, I see it like this:
-BMW with the 3-series is the performance minded brand.
-MB and Lexus with the C-Class and IS are the luxury/creature comfort minded brands.
-Audi and Infiniti with the A4/A3 and G35 are still trying to establish themselves... right now, I believe they act as attractive alternatives to the big 3. Audi seems to be the "Subi" of the lux-ish brands with their Quatro system, and Infiniti has been able to attract some buyers away from 3 and 5 series with their G and M cars.
-Acura is CLEARLY the brand for the value-minded consumer. As others have pointed out in this or other threads, they slot in between more economical brands and lux brands. The problem is they can't decide where they want to fit in... they attract buyers that will stretch themselves a little bit more to be get some extra features, or they attract buyers that don't want to spend the amount of money on a German car or super Toyota even though they could afford it.

I don't want my posts to come off as if I'm bashing the TSX --- I've loved my '05, and to be honest, it's been my favorite car out of everything I've owned. Since this discussion is about pricing, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I'd like to think that Acura is priced lower because it's their strategy --- however, I just personally don't believe they can price their products any higher. They don't have that kind of brand pull. Look at what BMW did with the pricing of their 1 series...

I don't believe the TSX has a counterpart in the lux brands. The TL is squarely set to compete with the 3, C, IS, A4/3, and G.

 

^ true dat

 

^^Nice explanation. That's how I feel.

 

I honestly think they have decided where they want to fit in, and we're seeing that right now. I don't see any indecision on the part of te brand and it's clearly more focused than it was in the mid 90's.

Remember that in the Retail Pyramid, there are very few sales at the very top (Bentley, Ferrari etc) , and very little profit at the very bottom (Chevy, Ford etc). I suffer no delusions about Acura's place in the world. I view them as a 'working mans' luxury brand.

 

In UK 2.4L Accord with Tech Package is similar priced as 160bhp A4 1.8T
http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-eq...=2855&ED=54634
http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-eq...=2796&ED=54373

u just tick the options boxs in Audi A4 and price difference is alteast 10,000 british pounds which translates into $20,000. remember Japanese built car already expensive in eurozone compared EU built.
In US if Audi put all the subsidies the price difference will still be more than $15,000 for similar equped. between new A42.0T and new TSX. remember the gap between old A4 and old TSX is alteast $10,000
and 90% of buyers want Auto which is free with TSX but cost $2,000 extra with Audi. Even the Pearl paint on Audi cost $800 extra much more than metallic. Audi current navigation system is 6.5inch not the 8 inch that Acura has. there is alot of subtle differences u can go on and on like TSX low long term maintainance cost.

 

Think of the business climate 3 years ago. The new TSX was wildly exceeding expectations, the MDX was selling strong even though it was aging, the TL was selling 70K a year, and even the RL seemed to be off to a good start.

It was in this climate that the current TSX was born. 6 months before the launch you cannot look up and say 'oh my, look what the competition is doing, lets change our plans and drop the J30 in there" You can't even to that a year before launch. Lead times for production cars is years, not months.

A perfect example of this is Infiniti. In a world of $4 a gallon gas, I'd be a little concerned. The entire product line is build around two chassis and two engines, neither of which are especially fuel efficient.