Does Acura need a coupe again?
12-19-2008, 02:27 PM
#41
I agree there are a segment of Hot Hatches, but they are better known for 'Bang for the Buck' than outright cost and thus reinforce that hatches are good for the money, but not expensive.
12-19-2008, 03:11 PM
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The later Camaros and Firebirds have been hatches and Saab makes hatch backs as well. I think the idea that a hatches are associated with cheap is selective observation.
If I had to associate a body type with cheap it would have to be the subcompact sedans and coupes with small diameter wheels, you're Hyundais, low end Chevy's and what have you.
If I had to associate a body type with cheap it would have to be the subcompact sedans and coupes with small diameter wheels, you're Hyundais, low end Chevy's and what have you.
12-19-2008, 03:16 PM
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Hatchbacks still remain unpopular in America, the new Mazda6 dropped the 5th door in America while keeping it in Europe/Asia is proof of this. Hatchbacks are unattractive to me for 4 reasons;
1) rigidity, the open hole in the back takes away the structure between the rear suspension towers (the speaker shelf is functional to the structure), resulting in flex/less handling/and proneness to rattles.
2), noise, the "drumming" of rear noise is amplified back there in the open cavern. Drive a Mazda3 sedan vs 5 door and that will convince you alone. Note that the resale of the sedan is higher as well.
3) Snow/heavy rear "heaviness" pronounced in the cold. Very frustrating to open you back which the lift gate shocks are weakend by the cold, only to have the snow slide into your interior.
4) No trunk to enhance the subwoofer sound.
1) rigidity, the open hole in the back takes away the structure between the rear suspension towers (the speaker shelf is functional to the structure), resulting in flex/less handling/and proneness to rattles.
2), noise, the "drumming" of rear noise is amplified back there in the open cavern. Drive a Mazda3 sedan vs 5 door and that will convince you alone. Note that the resale of the sedan is higher as well.
3) Snow/heavy rear "heaviness" pronounced in the cold. Very frustrating to open you back which the lift gate shocks are weakend by the cold, only to have the snow slide into your interior.
4) No trunk to enhance the subwoofer sound.
12-19-2008, 03:23 PM
#44
We're dancing on the head of a pin here. Let's say that (in North America) Hatchbacks are associated with cheap. All classically defined hatchbacks are 3 doors (ie. not matrix,). Not all 3 doors are hatchbacks (ie Firebirds, 928, 944 etc.).
12-19-2008, 03:34 PM
#45
I don't typically think of Wikipedia as the be all of authority, but here's a description of how hatchbacks came to be what they are today. Wackura, maybe it's an age thing.... those of us around for the first gas crisis may have formed different opinions (that you might not have heard of):
While hatchbacks have enjoyed some periods of popularity, particularly for smaller vehicles during the oil crises of the 1970s, the majority of North American customers (especially in the US) have preferred trunks to hatches. Conventional wisdom is that they have always found the styling of trunked cars more elegant and dignified than that of hatchbacks and station wagons, the latter of which lost much popularity over the 1970s and 1990s. Although the high fuel costs of the time had popularized hatchbacks, it also created a lasting stigma, as many Americans only bought hatchbacks because they had to. Furthermore, the poor quality and basic nature of many hatchbacks gave them a reputation for cheapness - driving a hatchback was a proclamation that the owner was too poor to buy a regular car...By the early 2000s, the New York Times commented that hatchbacks were the automotive equivalent of sitcoms starring former "Seinfeld" cast members; "no one wants to be associated with them."
12-19-2008, 03:54 PM
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Yes and No, I don't recall ever reading a review that called the Firebird a hatchback (though technically it was by our 3 door description).
We're dancing on the head of a pin here. Let's say that (in North America) Hatchbacks are associated with cheap. All classically defined hatchbacks are 3 doors (ie. not matrix,). Not all 3 doors are hatchbacks (ie Firebirds, 928, 944 etc.).
We're dancing on the head of a pin here. Let's say that (in North America) Hatchbacks are associated with cheap. All classically defined hatchbacks are 3 doors (ie. not matrix,). Not all 3 doors are hatchbacks (ie Firebirds, 928, 944 etc.).
If every time you refer to a hatchback you are picturing a Tercel then we can agree but we're talking about a potential Acura not a Hyundia so there should be no confusion what is being refered to.
12-19-2008, 03:59 PM
#47
There is a further sub-category called Liftbacks and I'd think that Camaro, Supra, Celica, RSX would fall into this category. These were characterized by a long sloping rear 'hatch'
12-19-2008, 04:04 PM
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I don't typically think of Wikipedia as the be all of authority, but here's a description of how hatchbacks came to be what they are today. Wackura, maybe it's an age thing.... those of us around for the first gas crisis may have formed different opinions (that you might not have heard of):
12-19-2008, 04:05 PM
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12-19-2008, 04:17 PM
#50
12-20-2008, 01:43 AM
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The very fact that they ever made them at all contradicts your argument that they are inherently cheap cars. In some cases they are cheap, in others there are very expensive and very nice cars. You're cherry picking in order to improve the standing of the coupe you're so fond of.
12-20-2008, 06:36 AM
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Hatches in America are mostly in the low end as the poor man's SUV/Crossover/minivan. If people are wanting the practicality, they go to other segments, that is why people in America see the hatchback as cheap because for the most part, that is the only offering. The vaulted "Yugo" did nothing to help this class.
In Europe, and more so in Asia, the larger cars are restricted due to the streets and the fact that fuel is much higher. Folks want the practicality of the hatchback, and are willing to go upscale with the hatch as a more convenient alternative.
In Europe, and more so in Asia, the larger cars are restricted due to the streets and the fact that fuel is much higher. Folks want the practicality of the hatchback, and are willing to go upscale with the hatch as a more convenient alternative.
12-20-2008, 12:23 PM
#54
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Firstly, I never said they were 'cheap cars.' Secondly, I never said which coupe I was fond of and thirdly my posts were about hatchbacks, not coupes.
Aside from those minor details I think you're on to something!
Aside from those minor details I think you're on to something!
The very fact that they ever made them at all contradicts your argument that they are inherently cheap cars. In some cases they are cheap, in others there are very expensive and very nice cars. You're cherry picking in order to improve the standing of the coupe you're so fond of.
12-20-2008, 02:25 PM
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I was talking about hatchbacks. I think you're dumping on hatchbacks to make coupes seem better than they really are.
12-20-2008, 02:30 PM
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Hatches in America are mostly in the low end as the poor man's SUV/Crossover/minivan. If people are wanting the practicality, they go to other segments, that is why people in America see the hatchback as cheap because for the most part, that is the only offering. The vaulted "Yugo" did nothing to help this class.
In Europe, and more so in Asia, the larger cars are restricted due to the streets and the fact that fuel is much higher. Folks want the practicality of the hatchback, and are willing to go upscale with the hatch as a more convenient alternative.
In Europe, and more so in Asia, the larger cars are restricted due to the streets and the fact that fuel is much higher. Folks want the practicality of the hatchback, and are willing to go upscale with the hatch as a more convenient alternative.
12-20-2008, 03:19 PM
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I simply stated the fact that hatchbacks, overall, do not sell well in the US. That is like saying I'm "dumping" on the sun when I say it is dark out.
As far as hatchbacks being cheap or expensive the fact is that there are no "expensive" hatchbacks sold in the US to the best of my knowledge. If I am incorrect please tell me which luxury marquees sell them in the US. Mercedes-Benz made one hatchback but a C230 Kompressor could hardly be called a "luxury" car. SAAB and Volvo are tiny, insignificant players in anyplace but Sweden.
As far as hatchbacks being cheap or expensive the fact is that there are no "expensive" hatchbacks sold in the US to the best of my knowledge. If I am incorrect please tell me which luxury marquees sell them in the US. Mercedes-Benz made one hatchback but a C230 Kompressor could hardly be called a "luxury" car. SAAB and Volvo are tiny, insignificant players in anyplace but Sweden.
Last edited by CL6; 12-20-2008 at 03:22 PM.
12-21-2008, 06:32 AM
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If you think about it, a crossover SUV is nothing more than a hatchback that sucked on an airhose! What is really the difference, both are car platforms that has a lift gate? The thing is the overinflated crossover gets over the econo sized hatch stigma. As stated, Americans do not want an mid to expensive small sized hatch, they either want a good handling car, or they buy the crossover if they need the practicality with some small tradeoffs.
12-21-2008, 08:17 AM
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Obviously American's don't want hatchbacks now, that's perfectly obvious, but they did in the recent past. The real question is what is different between now and then. Someone said they were popular when the economty was down and people couldn't afford a full sized car but there were numerous hatchbacks in recent years that weren't bottom of the barrel, also mentioned above.
12-21-2008, 02:32 PM
#60
WTH happened to my garage
To me, hatchbacks are synonymous with inexpensive or entry-level, albeit utilitarian. I had hatches in the past & hated not being able to have stuff in the trunk out of view, disliked the cabin noise & the lack of structural integrity.
Coupes are for SINK's & DINK's so if you have a family it seems selfish & impractical.
Minivans & wagon's are wayyy too soccer-Mom'ish, so I drive a sedan.
Parents with young kids buy crossovers because they need the utility for strollers & crap bags but don't want to feel like their parents with a woody wagon, so with the crossover, they can be SUV truck-cool and ecologically responsible without truck handling or economy.
Coupes are for SINK's & DINK's so if you have a family it seems selfish & impractical.
Minivans & wagon's are wayyy too soccer-Mom'ish, so I drive a sedan.
Parents with young kids buy crossovers because they need the utility for strollers & crap bags but don't want to feel like their parents with a woody wagon, so with the crossover, they can be SUV truck-cool and ecologically responsible without truck handling or economy.
12-21-2008, 06:01 PM
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To me, hatchbacks are synonymous with inexpensive or entry-level, albeit utilitarian. I had hatches in the past & hated not being able to have stuff in the trunk out of view, disliked the cabin noise & the lack of structural integrity.
Coupes are for SINK's & DINK's so if you have a family it seems selfish & impractical.
Minivans & wagon's are wayyy too soccer-Mom'ish, so I drive a sedan.
Parents with young kids buy crossovers because they need the utility for strollers & crap bags but don't want to feel like their parents with a woody wagon, so with the crossover, they can be SUV truck-cool and ecologically responsible without truck handling or economy.
Coupes are for SINK's & DINK's so if you have a family it seems selfish & impractical.
Minivans & wagon's are wayyy too soccer-Mom'ish, so I drive a sedan.
Parents with young kids buy crossovers because they need the utility for strollers & crap bags but don't want to feel like their parents with a woody wagon, so with the crossover, they can be SUV truck-cool and ecologically responsible without truck handling or economy.
It's truely sad to me that people sacrifice all the utility and comfort of minivans in favor of crossovers due to things like image alone. I don't expect people to not be the least bit self conscious, but this is an extreme trade-off. That's a lot of cargo space, head room and versatility to give up just because you worry what people who don't know you might think about you.
The self-image thing has become such as cliche, especialy post the era of SUV excess that if anything driving a minivan has become rebelious. I think driving a minivan is a show of self confidence and independance.
12-22-2008, 12:06 PM
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Marketing in America has really shaped society to put way more importance in image than it rightfully deserves. It's not hard to figure out why. There's a lot of useless crap out there that people want to sell so they create a demand for it by creating an image. Then the advertisers work really hard at making you feel like a loser if you don't buy into their version of cool. It works alarming well in a nation full of sheep and keepers-up-with-the-Jonesers.
With the sudden evaporation of disposable income, peoples eyes are opening though.
With the sudden evaporation of disposable income, peoples eyes are opening though.
12-22-2008, 12:36 PM
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I'm not sure less disposable income will result in more minivan sales. After all, SUVs have been discounted so much and resale is so poor that they are very inexpensive to buy and they generally last for 100,000+ miles. I'd guess that hatchbacks sell well in urban areas and not very well outside of those demographics. People who have limited space to park their cars are kind of forced into buying them because anything larger just can't be easily parked. I know an issue for me is not having a lockable trunk. Others may like the storage space but like having a high driving position, hence cars like the RDX.
If there was a big demand there would be supply but so far VW seems to be the only company that offers hatches in large numbers but I would bet that is because it's just an extension of their European models instead of N. American-specific vehicles.
If there was a big demand there would be supply but so far VW seems to be the only company that offers hatches in large numbers but I would bet that is because it's just an extension of their European models instead of N. American-specific vehicles.
12-22-2008, 01:14 PM
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I'm not thinking so much in terms of mini-vans but in smaller cars. I work with a number of people (mostly women) who drive stupid huge SUVs for no reason other than like the respect a dangerously large vehicle demands. One woman even told me she doesn't bother to look when she changes lanes because she knows people will get out of the way (fuck her by the way). This sort of mentality just isn't going to work with the new economic climate. This isn't going to be an over night change by any means (though you must admit the year to year change is pretty drastic in this segment). Existing stocks that are now being sold below wholesale are skewing the market. Once that supply is depleted, I think dealer lots are going to look quite different.
12-22-2008, 01:25 PM
#65
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Crossovers are the new minivan. If people avoid mini-vans because they are associated with soccer moms then they should avoid crossovers for that same reason.
It's truely sad to me that people sacrifice all the utility and comfort of minivans in favor of crossovers due to things like image alone. I don't expect people to not be the least bit self conscious, but this is an extreme trade-off. That's a lot of cargo space, head room and versatility to give up just because you worry what people who don't know you might think about you.
The self-image thing has become such as cliche, especialy post the era of SUV excess that if anything driving a minivan has become rebelious. I think driving a minivan is a show of self confidence and independance.
It's truely sad to me that people sacrifice all the utility and comfort of minivans in favor of crossovers due to things like image alone. I don't expect people to not be the least bit self conscious, but this is an extreme trade-off. That's a lot of cargo space, head room and versatility to give up just because you worry what people who don't know you might think about you.
The self-image thing has become such as cliche, especialy post the era of SUV excess that if anything driving a minivan has become rebelious. I think driving a minivan is a show of self confidence and independance.
I'm going to show this to the wife next time she becomes self conscious about driving the Odyssey.
12-22-2008, 04:01 PM
#66
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You can buy an SUV for very little money now so I fail to see how this will somehow change that type of behavior.
I'm not thinking so much in terms of mini-vans but in smaller cars. I work with a number of people (mostly women) who drive stupid huge SUVs for no reason other than like the respect a dangerously large vehicle demands. One woman even told me she doesn't bother to look when she changes lanes because she knows people will get out of the way (fuck her by the way). This sort of mentality just isn't going to work with the new economic climate. This isn't going to be an over night change by any means (though you must admit the year to year change is pretty drastic in this segment). Existing stocks that are now being sold below wholesale are skewing the market. Once that supply is depleted, I think dealer lots are going to look quite different.
12-22-2008, 04:10 PM
#67
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Because the current situation is transient. The production of those SUVs has slowed to the point where plants are closing or being retooled for other uses. They're only cheap because the market is full of them and nobody wants to buy them. Pretty simple supply and demand really. Eventually the supply will be depleted and/or the gas prices will rise again and then the cost of ownership will rise to the point that no one will touch them.
12-22-2008, 04:43 PM
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Gas was cheap for a long time and yet people weren't real attracted to SUVs until the Ford Explorer came along. There's definately a herd mentality going on. A lot of the people who buy crossovers for the "height" probably don't care all that much about height but cite it as a reason because they don't feel comfortable, or simply don't have the introspection to say "because all the other PTA moms have one."
I no longer have a specific need for a hatch because I could afford a seperate van but I like Honda/Acura because I have an efficiency fetish and for that reason I'd look at hatches again for the fact that you get a lot of versatility for such a small package. Don't talk to be about the Honda Fit. It does a lot of things but looking cool isn't one of them.
I no longer have a specific need for a hatch because I could afford a seperate van but I like Honda/Acura because I have an efficiency fetish and for that reason I'd look at hatches again for the fact that you get a lot of versatility for such a small package. Don't talk to be about the Honda Fit. It does a lot of things but looking cool isn't one of them.
12-22-2008, 05:12 PM
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^^ I totally disagree about the looking cool part. I love the look of the Fit and if I had a need for a vehicle of that design, I'd be all over it. I test drove one a while ago on a whim and was very surprised how much fun it was and that was an AT. I'd so rock an MT Fit.
12-22-2008, 05:30 PM
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If looking like a gaunt starving artist is cool then sure, I guess it depends on the area you live. I'm sure they're fun to drive but that's beside the point. Someone mentioned that hatchbacks are probably cooler in the city than out in the country which makes perfect sense to me.
12-22-2008, 05:34 PM
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The main reasons some one would want a car like that are not very prevalent outside of the more urbanized areas but that's hardly an aesthetic issue. I guess if you need to look like a big uneducated hick in jacked up pick up truck it could be.
Lame rationalization there friend.
Lame rationalization there friend.
12-22-2008, 05:39 PM
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No, one of the benefits to the hatchback was that they look sporty on top of the practicality and the economy. On the list of pros and cons I take aesthetics into account.
Which makes me wonder why people are such fans of coupes. They look like photoshopped sedans.
Which makes me wonder why people are such fans of coupes. They look like photoshopped sedans.
12-23-2008, 10:00 AM
#73
WTH happened to my garage
A coupe has always been more sporty, a personal luxury/sport coupe has always been the staple of pre-child and empty nest-er men and women. Hatches have pretty much always been an entry-level offering...in the states, at least.
Remember that Lexus commercial with the SC400 launching out of the garage door as the announcer talks about child life, then college tuition..."then...they got JOBS."
I wouldn't have been caught dead in a four door *anything* when I was a teenager (25 years ago). Most of that has changed a bit with the lack of coupes, particularly as hand-me-downs.
Remember that Lexus commercial with the SC400 launching out of the garage door as the announcer talks about child life, then college tuition..."then...they got JOBS."
I wouldn't have been caught dead in a four door *anything* when I was a teenager (25 years ago). Most of that has changed a bit with the lack of coupes, particularly as hand-me-downs.
12-23-2008, 12:24 PM
#74
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I seriously doubt the SUV supply on the secondary market will be depleted any time soon. I don't have a sedan because I don't need the extra set of doors and I don't have a hatchback because there is no lockable trunk and I'd rather drive a larger vehicle.
12-23-2008, 12:25 PM
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A coupe has always been more sporty, a personal luxury/sport coupe has always been the staple of pre-child and empty nest-er men and women. Hatches have pretty much always been an entry-level offering...in the states, at least.
Remember that Lexus commercial with the SC400 launching out of the garage door as the announcer talks about child life, then college tuition..."then...they got JOBS."
I wouldn't have been caught dead in a four door *anything* when I was a teenager (25 years ago). Most of that has changed a bit with the lack of coupes, particularly as hand-me-downs.
Remember that Lexus commercial with the SC400 launching out of the garage door as the announcer talks about child life, then college tuition..."then...they got JOBS."
I wouldn't have been caught dead in a four door *anything* when I was a teenager (25 years ago). Most of that has changed a bit with the lack of coupes, particularly as hand-me-downs.
I think and always have though the SC400 was meant for aging loners who hate children.
12-23-2008, 12:27 PM
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Assuming you have a coupe, what do you do when you want to bring a large TV or similar appliance home, and wouldn't you rather not?
12-23-2008, 01:06 PM
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One guy I work with has a VW GTI. That's a pretty sweet little hatch. Another guy has a VW R32 and that thing is just insane. Neither of those cars have sense of cheepness to them at all.
12-23-2008, 02:06 PM
#78
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Home delivery is a great option! They bring it to your door, they set it up, the remove the packaging, and they take away the old item! Best money ever spent.
Besides, my other car is a VW Bus.
Besides, my other car is a VW Bus.
12-23-2008, 02:20 PM
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I don't care for the "we'll bring it sometime between 9am and 3pm next Thursday ... will someone be around?" I also hate having the delivery guys in or near my house where they can take notes for their klepto friends. Of course I have to use those services for huge things like furniture but I'd rather not.
12-23-2008, 05:38 PM
#80
WTH happened to my garage
I think the perception of hatchbacks is dependant on age. Everyone over 40 remembers them as economy cars from the 80's. More recent hatches were sportier cars such as the Celica, Integra, 240SX, Eclipse,etc.
I think and always have though the SC400 was meant for aging loners who hate children.
I think and always have though the SC400 was meant for aging loners who hate children.
I had my 'Stang-banging days, too, but it was a notch.Oh, and +1 for delivering anything that doesn't fit in my coupe or my sedan.