Acura_Dude

That doesn't surprise me at all. I couldn't put up with owning a Range Rover (dream car) and always having to go to the dealer for warranty work. You'd think they'd car about reliability like the asian brand cars, especially if your spending northwards of $50K for a car. But as long as people are willing to put up with it, why should the manufacturer car?

TSX69

Acura Recalibrates w/ New ILS Sedan, Redesigned RDX

American Honda's Acura division will launch a new entry-luxury sport sedan and a redesigned RDX crossover this spring as part of an ambitious effort to revive its luxury image.

The ILX sedan, which will replace the slightly larger TSX in the lineup, arrives in dealerships alongside the new RDX.

The combination of the 2 new products, plus the ability to manufacture at full capacity after recovering from last year's earthquake in Japan and flooding in Thailand, means Acura sales are projected to increase from about 123,000 units in 2011 to 180,000 this year, said American Honda CEO Tetsuo Iwamura.

Honda is revamping the Acura lineup over the next 18 months in a bid to jump-start the division's lagging sales.

After years of trying to push Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda officials say they will settle for offering midlevel premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.

"Over the next 24 months the Acura brand will unleash a series of new models that will remake our product lineup and shake up the luxury market," Acura General Manager Jeff Conrad said in a statement.

Acura's U.S. sales -- hampered by inventory shortages resulting from the March earthquake in Japan -- dropped 8% to 123,299 vehicles last year.

The ILX will share underpinnings with the Honda Civic. It is not the 1st time Honda has based an Acura on the Civic. The successful Integra and RSX of the '90s and early '00s were both Civic derivatives, and no 1 thought less of them.

Why was the ILX downsized? The outgoing TSX was based on the European Honda Accord platform, and its footprint crowded the TL sedan, which also was about the same size as the flagship RL. Having 3 sedans so close in size but with a $20,000 price spread was a problem for the brand. More differentiation was needed -- hence the ILX.

The deletion of the TSX, though, will not happen immediately upon the launch of the ILX, said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president of product planning.

While admitting the TSX "is the car that gets squeezed," Poponi said that, "We can't dump it right away. We'll see how they work together."

Acura design chief Jon Ikeda said the introduction of the ILX means Acura is "in process of reshaping the hierarchy of the entire Acura sedan lineup."

Iwamura was upbeat about Acura's sales prospects for this year.

"If we do 180,000 units, that will be a success. We are much more ambitious for the future. Last year, we struggled a lot with production [due to the earthquake and tsunami], but this year we can go full speed," Iwamura said.

The ILX, unveiled in concept form at the auto show here, will offer a choice of 2 4-cylinder engines -- a 2.0-liter or 2.4-liter -- or a hybrid combined with a 1.5-liter 4-banger.

Among standard features on the ILX: keyless locks, push-button start, Pandora radio and front, side and side-curtain airbags.

The ILX will be built exclusively at Honda's new Greensburg, Ind., plant, boosting Honda's U.S. manufacturing base and further shielding it from the strong yen. The outgoing TSX was built in Sayama, Japan.

Acura ILX
Wheelbase: 105.1 in.
Length: 179.3 in.
Width: 74.4 in.
Height: 56.1 in.

RDX: Longer wheelbase, wider track
The redesigned Acura RDX crossover gets a 273-hp V-6 engine instead of the underpowered four-banger in its predecessor.

The redesigned RDX crossover also will feature a longer wheelbase and wider track.

The RDX's previous big weakness -- a peaky turbo-4 engine -- has been replaced with a 273-hp 3.5-liter V-6 that has 33 more horsepower than the outgoing model.

Acura RDX
Wheelbase: 105.7 in.
Length: 183.5 in.
Width: 73.7 in.
Height: 64.2 in.

Acura_Dude

Good news here! I love the new TSX. So what im seeing is building the ILX will keep the price in check so Honda won't lose out having the car imported to the States since the Yen is so strong compared to the dollar. Am i correct on this?

billyt1963

So if this replaces the TSX, will we see an ILX wagon? Maybe a TL wagon?

Billy

Rocket_man

"... While admitting the TSX "is the car that gets squeezed," Poponi said that, "We can't dump it right away. We'll see how they work together."

Acura design chief Jon Ikeda said the introduction of the ILX means Acura is "in process of reshaping the hierarchy of the entire Acura sedan lineup." ...


I guess I read this differently. They say the TSX is getting squeezed, and they are reshaping the entire line up (over 18 months). I take this language as not wanting to undermine TSX sales while it is still in the line up waiting for the new Accord based TSX/TL to replace it. I just can't see Acura with 4 sedans. Unlike BMW and Audi they just don't move that many cars to pull that off.

I'm actually looking forward to the new TSX/TL. Something a little smaller and affordable than the TL, but more upscale of the ILX and the outgoing TSX. I wish it were coming sooner.

thunderbt3

"... While admitting the TSX "is the car that gets squeezed," Poponi said that, "We can't dump it right away. We'll see how they work together."

The way I read that is:

"We are going to kill the TSX, but not when the ILX launches. We'll dump it in 2013 when the 2014 TL gets launched, and we'll say the TSX was the redheaded stepchild of the Acura family"

I too am looking forward to the next gen TL/TLX. I'm pretty sure the Accord sedan will be the stripped down econobox version of what would've been the 3G TSX with Honda badges. You can already see some TSX in the Accord coupe concept.

Guy Legend

Word is that the next Accord sedan will be a worldwide model - ie no more separating models for North America and Europe. If that's true, that would effectively guarantee the removal of the TSX from Acura's line up.

As good a car as the TSX is, it only makes sense for Acura to off 3 sedans with clear size/spec differences so that they don't self-cannibalize each other.

lghtspeedz

I am intrigued by the ILX concept. I might be an odd ball but I see a Lexus IS250 more than a Honda Civic. I really question Acura's logic of ditching the TSX model. Here are some things I see:

• The TSX made up 25% of Acura's sales volume in 2011. The TL was just above 25% volume as well. The RL contributed almost nothing.
• The CSX is apparently a failure in the Canadian market, although it is not at all like the ILX. It makes me nervous that they could be doubling down on something that has not worked.
• The TSX brings a wagon model to round out Acura's cross-over heavy line-up, of which, only one (MDX) really sells well.
• I love the TL but it is basically a North American model only. The automotive world is all about economies of scale, so I would think they have to work much harder to maximize profits on that car than they would the TSX.

So why not keep the TSX, introduce a game changing RL (it is after all a global platform), and ditch the TL. OR they could keep the TL name and base it off the Legend platform (thereby ditching the RL). I would think the game changing RL would look something like a slightly more space efficient, slightly higher end TL. This would allow them to differentiate the sizes of their vehicles and keep some of the model recognition they already have.

When I look at their sales numbers I see a few trends that concern me about Acura / Honda's decision:

1 - The TSX was built in Japan and was subject to tremendous parts shortage issues throughout several months of 2011. Its sales only decreased by 4%. I would have expected a huge dip in TSX sales since there were several months of minimal production.
2 - The TL was significantly overhauled in 2011 as a 2012 MY. It is built in North America and may or may not have been subjected to parts shortages as badly as the TSX (I didn't follow it that closely so I don't know). Despite it's MMC it's sales decreased by almost 9%. You would think that the TL would have increased in sales because A - they have them on the lot, and B - the car looked a lot better.

I also find it interesting that I see TV ads for the TL all the time. I have never seen an advertisement for the TSX (others might have but I literally have not seen one). So from my perspective I find it impressive that they have generated 25% of their sales by volume with limited advertising.

If you're wondering how I came to the sales numbers here is what I found:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...136682283.html



I see three bright spots in Acura's lineup - The MDX, TL, and TSX. If I were a Product Manager or Executive at Honda I would be figuring out how to grow sales for those three products and carve out niches around them. Given that Acura had a down year, removing any one of those products from your lineup in the next 12-24 months just seems risky to me. Maybe this is why they aren't going to discontinue the TSX at the launch of the ILX. With a car like the ILX you have no sales history to base things off of - you are basically starting at zero. I think that Acura makes great vehicles but product stability does not seem to be there thing.

So if it were me I would do the following:

ILX - As is for $27k-$29.9k. If entry level is the plan crossing the $30k mark would be a big deal. But you can't position the car so cheaply that it competes with a loaded Civic.
TSX - Based off of global Accord platform. Keeps the wagon in the lineup, improve rear seat leg-room and add a few more luxury - tech package features (rain sensing wipers, heated steering wheel, etc.). Keep 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder options and maybe add a hybrid option. Manual transmission available with both.
TL - Depending on what Honda does with the Legend platform (I am familiar with it as the Legend in the UK) this could be a stretched Accord or a ground up Legend type product. Same luxury features as above plus a panoramic sunroof, and make the seats fold down finally! I think I would put in a small displacement GDI V6 (3.0L) and maybe a GDI 3.5LV6 with the SH-AWD. Manual Transmission would be available.

I would ditch the ZDX and RL. I think the strategy with the RDX is interesting and they should play that out as is. Long-term I might try to remove weight from the MDX to improve fuel efficiency.

It's easy for me to say because I am not an employee and would not have to answer for this stuff. But a little integration with their Global Honda products would not be a bad thing, especially if they have the capability to differentiate through re-work as nicely as it appears they have with the ILX.

pearldrummer

Hmm, maybe the next Accord sedan will answer some of our prayers; a V6 TSX (World Accord) with 6mt?

I've never actually been excited for an Accord, but maybe this is the one? EXL trim of course....

Still will check out the ILX though. CSX sells better than expected in Canada, considering it's just a civic with some lipstick.

5thTo2nd

The CSX is not the failure people make it out to be. It doesn't do as well as the TSX but it's no slouch either. Both the CSX (and the EL before it) had its followers and there's quite a lot of them here in Toronto. With the ILX they have to prove to the market that it's not just a rebadged Civic. If they can accomplish that then they're golden. Refinements and high-quality components will go a long way to convince people of that. Oh, and the engine choices are definitely going to help push people into the ILX.

It's not a bad move for them to drop the TSX if they shrink the TL and cut the MSRP (which is what I've heard is going to happen from a friend who works at the dealership). That would make it easy for current TSX owners to upgrade into a TL as some TSX owners like myself would never dream of getting into something as big as the current TL. Oh, and if it's true that Acura is going international then the TL and the rest of the lineup would be no longer North American-only.

There's already talk that the Legend will be something along the lines of a 5-series in size but with 7-series performance. Not bad for a game-changer.

I agree to ditch the ZDX. I almost forgot it was in their lineup!

supafamous

I'd hate to see the TSX go but I don't see how it stays in the lineup with the way things are going and Acura has said they are planning for a 3 sedan lineup and the RL and ILX are sure things.

A few general points:

- I suspect the ILX will start well below $30k and probably close to $25-26k so that it competes effectively against the Buick Verano which is its natural competition. The ILX doesn't make enough power to be a competitor to the next Audi A3.
- The TSX has no home because whatever sits above the ILX needs to compete against the A4, ATS, 3-series and C-class and the TSX can't hold a candle to that lineup. You can't take a working class family sedan, rebadge it and put some goodies on it and compete against those guys.
- The TL is the natural competitor to the above named cars. It's got the reputation as a luxury car and it'll get it's own modified chassis with SH-AWD etc. I am curious if it'll be offered with a 4 cylinder though since everyone else in their league is offering a small motor and the ILX is too small to compete against an A4 2.0T.
- The RDX, if it drives well, stands to do a lot of damage in the market. It sure seems right-sized to me and it has enough luxury and power to fight the Q5, the X3 and the GLK. People looking at the RX350 will likely look this way as well and Infiniti has nothing to fight it. It straddles the compact and mid-size luxury SUV market in just the right way, this could be a huge hit.

ceb

I disagree. Using that logic, then the TL has to go.

The TL is too bloated to be a 3series, A4, C class competitor. Based on exterior size, if fits more into the 5 series,A6, E class but falls short on innovation and handling.

An improved TSX could easily compete with the C class and so forth. Think AWD and the bits that the Euro Accord has - adaptive lighting, high beam assist, adaptive cruise and parking sensors all around. While the price would increase, it would still be below the Euro competition and would win on reliability alone. Add an AWD diesel wagon and Subaru could go home.

In Europe the RL (sold as the Honda Legend) competed with the E class. it generally came in below the MB, Audi and BMW but it was considered in the same class.

Gussie the RL up with proper interior and exterior design, throw in a state of the art tranny and you have a competitor like the Lexus was.

The TL and RL are too close in size and features so one of them has to go.

KillerG

combine the TSX and the TL into one perfect 3-series fightin' car.

what's so hard about that?

you could even keep it FWD and have optional AWD, but with this earth dreams shit its not gonna fly.

needs a 6-speed auto and a 6-speed manual, a 4-turbo for good weight/power, TSX looks and size, a TL interior, and loads of tech and honda reliability, and weight savings

SSFTSX

TSX/TL cannot be combined for the same reason Euro Civic cannot be combined with USDM Civic.
Euro Civic is only 169inch compared to ILX 179 inch.
Next Euro Accord is going to be lunched in UK in 2014 will feature 1.6L TDI. It seems it will be smaller vehicle more in size of BMW 3/Audi A4.
No one buys 2.4 Euro Accord there. so this engine along with V6 could possibly be droped all togehter. so the car is designed for ground up to be for 4 cylinder.
It needs to be in compliance with Euro 6 emissions with Auto transmission in diesel. That is tall order for Accord.

LaCostaRacer

Great post! I had the same thoughts a couple weeks ago and you did a much better job laying them out. It seems a no-brainer to ditch the ZDX/RL and keep the TSX for an extended time. Those two car models combined don't come close to TSX sales. Acura should look at cars that allow people to grow with the brand and the ILX would serve that role much like the RSX use to.

The reason I have been hanging in the TSX forum a little more is that I see a TSX as my next car if I were to buy one only because it would fit in my garage while the bloated TL would not- not to mention the looks of the TL are improved but still not great. I was at the SD Auto show checking out the special edition model and the sales woman completely understood why a 3G TL owner would gravitate to a TSX because of the styling of the new TL- no rebuttal from her.

supafamous

I should clarify that I'm expecting the next TL to shrink in size - if the rumours are true that is. If it measures out at 186-188 inches then it can compete with the A4, 3 series etc. If it's 190+ then Acura has no real strategy around their 3 sedan lineup since the RL is suppose to be 5 series sized (~195 inches).

If the latter happens then we better all take a long swig of the alcohol of our choices because Acura will have truly lost the plot.

KillerG

^Acura doesnt have to have a point to point targeted strategy

Honda has always had a "well do whatever the fuck we want" attitude for the longest time, but lately it hasnt been paying off

Even the NAIAS conference started off with "We here at Acura will do whatever we like in the future..."

PyroDave

yea that does seem to be Acura's mentality for the most part. i mean it has worked sometimes, and they've had some amazing car, but also some pretty big flops. and a lot of people still see Acura as just a Honda. but for the most part, after my friends have sat in, or even driven my car, they fully enjoy it. minus one German fanboy lol. when i tell people my MPG, and they see how i drive, their mouth usually drops. they are astounded at 30+ MPG from leisurely driving and cruising. and most of the guys my age that have driven next to me or in the car and heard my engine, love it. i have a friend with a Dodge Charger R/T 08 or 09 i believe, and he says he wishes that his car sounded like mine when i hit VTEC with the Resonator Delete. i've revved my engine, and then not hit the gas off a light, and people are confused, because it stays quiet under 3K RPM. thats one of the things i really love.

The current RDX is generally a flop, though it does have decent sales. the main reason is the poorly executed engine. its just not smooth. the ZDX and RL obviously don't sell. the TL had a pretty amazing run. 07-08 was probably the best year for them. but i do see plenty of 4G's on the road. around me, the TSX is extremely popular(obviously most of us have one). i've got atleast 5 friends/people i know that got the TSX. 2 a year older than me. 3 two years older. my moms coworker test drove my car last year when he was looking for cars, and ended up using swapalease to get a vortex 09, same as mine. he loves it. the RSX was amazing. so it seems to be hit or miss as i said, some of their "we do what we want" seemed to coincide with what we wanted apparently

Nedmundo

That's what I'd like to see -- something like the old Mazdaspeed 6 with a nicer interior and better fuel economy. Matching the power and torque of the A4 2.0T shouldn't be too difficult. BTW, I suspect Mazda has something bitchin' up its sleeve for the next generation 6, like a turbo version of the efficient DI "Skyactiv" engines, and I hope Honda/Acura keeps up.

bartek7pl

How Acura whats to fight with BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus and even Infinity if they only cover US and Canada market with their models except for TSX that we all know it is Honda Accord in the World. When I went to Europe and friends asked me what do I drive and I said Acura their like " what the hell is that" People don't know Acura at all and the rest of cars that I mentioned they do know very well. So how do they want to make $$$$ and good cars? I don't know all I know that they can compete with Toyota, Mazda, Nissan and VW for now and I am sorry to say that.

Vagabond Jack

I wouldn't mind seeing Acura drop the 4 cylinder TSX and just keep the 6 cylinder. Some people want a 6 and just feel that the TL is too big. It wouldn't hurt to keep the TSX V6 to compete with the 3 Series and the Lexus IS sedans.

But if they do that they'd need to drop the pricing a bit because they'd be leaving a huge gap between the ILX base price and the TSX base price.

My guess is that all models stay

bartek7pl

Why would they drop the 4 cylinder engine? They're famous for this engine and new 3 series just got 2.0L I4 hp 240 more engines is always better.

iVtecOften

full production models of rdx and ilx has been confirmed by acura for chicago auto show in feb

spdandpwr

^yay, can't wait to see it.

Rocket_man

They should announce pricinig then I assume. Earlier I understood it will hit showrooms in Apr. Can't believe how fast they pulled this one out. I hope it is well thought through and executed. They can't afford to screw this up.

jasyn

so has there been any proof of the tsx being canned or is this all speculation? i'm in the market for the tsx wagon and would hate to purchase the car to have it off the model line up a year from now.

mrstak

iTrader: (1)

What would be so bad about buying a car that's going to be off the model line later on? Doesn't mean they're going to stop repairs on it or void the warranty...

SSFTSX

I hope TSX gets one more MMC for 2013 with new Honda engine and 6speed auto. as fuel economy gap is increasing for 2013.

ed_423

damn the 3 series has an eight speed??

tobwac

I still take TSX over Germans lol

Rocket_man

I don't see any way Acura will make any serious changes to the TSX in its last model year. No way that would pay off. If you want better fuel economy there will be the ILX, otherwise wait for the new TSX/TL next year.

BTW I saw the new 3-series at the car show in Houston this weekend. VERY nice car. I think BMW will have a hit on their hands. But pricey. The room in the back seat is noticeably larger, but the door sills are very high and it is hard to get in and out of. But once you are inside it is very nice. now if I can justify the additional cost of the 3-series. Still the one and perhaps only advantage Acura has on BMW, cost.

jasyn

well assuming the tsx isn't dropped .. and seeing as how 2013 is the rdx/ilx .. would the next refresh on the tsx be 2014/2015 (hypothetically)?

spdandpwr

yes, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw 2015 since acura / honda products tend to follow 6 year lifespans.

I find it incredible that honda has tried to copy toyotas strategy with introducing a luxury brand and yet acura comes nowhere close to lexus.

vybzkartel

Hey MODS, when is the ILX section getting added....

98 Canuck

I wouldn't be surprised if Acura works towards the following:

3 Luxury/Sport Sedans: ILX, TLX, RLX
3 Sport Utility (Crossover) Vehicles: RDX, MDX ZDX
1 Supercar: NSX

LX Series Sedans: ILX, TLX, RLX

The Acura ILX was recently introduced with three powertrain options. That should give some guidance as to the direction that Honda America wants to go with the Acura Brand.

The Acura TLX will combine the best of the TSX and TL into a single vehicle (think volume production). Again ... watch for a choice of three powertrains - a fuel efficient 4 cylinder, a smooth powerful V6, and a V6 Hybrid with SH-AWD. The new Acura TLX will be slightly smaller than the current TL (based on the Euro Accord) in an effort create some separation in size/features between this vehicle and the Acura RLX.

The new Acura RLX will continue to be Acura's flagship sedan. Watch for an optional V6 with hybrid technology (similar to the NSX) and a new dual clutch transmission.

As with all Acura vehicles, the emphasis will be on luxury, fuel efficiency and sportiness (power & handling). With the exception of the Acura NSX, all Acura Branded Vehicles will be developed with the same enthusiast's DNA - but will not be true sports cars.

Rocket_man

I agree with most of what you are saying. The new "TLX" will be based on the new accord platform so yes it gets smaller on the outside but the interior is mostly the same in size. The TLX may also get a hybrid drivetrain similar to the ILX but maybe with the 2.0 liter as base vice the 1.5 liter. The RL will be sold with a front drive V6 in the base config and a V6+ rear electric SH-AWD in the top of the line. Since the rear wheels are driven by electric motors, they do not have to build a rear wheel platform and it makes it easy to produce a FWD V6 base car.

Unfortunately I don't think luxury is where Acura places their emphasis. They have stated many times they are not trying to compete in the luxury market. They seem to be trying to carve out thier own niche in the Practical-but-near-luxury-fuel-efficient segment. Maybe this is the right move, I guess we'll see in a few years if thier market share increases.

I'm hoping the 'TLX' is a car I'll like because it may be my next car (GIVE ME FOLDNG REAR SEATS!). I saw the new 3-series at a car show this weekend and liked it a lot. But the price is a major factor.

Vagabond Jack

they wouldn't. I'm saying I would because many times people like the fact that the TL is a V6 but they want a smaller car (kind of how the 3 Series and 5 series are usually offered with same engines but the size of the car itself is different).

TSX and ILX both with 4 bangers kind of floods the segment. The RL can then be made bigger with a V8.

I know Acura won't do this I'm just saying if I had a call in it that would be the direction I would go.

ILX- 4 cylinder, re-entering the smaller, more affordable market

TSX- 6 cylinder, Base, Tech, Advance models. Covers a market in the $30K's range (as it does now [competing for Lexus IS250/350, BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, Infiniti G),

TL- V6, larger car (Lexus ES350, BMW 5 Series, Audi A6, Infiniti M35)

RL -v8 (Lexus LS, Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes, larger Infiniti M, etc.)

s40 driver

We should have some interior shots of the ILX tomorrow morning!

KillerG

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/07/2...-level-luxury/

DISCUSSION TIME

KillerG

first impression:

no exhausts

interior looks quite nice, looks like they cut down on the center stack clutter, which was a common complaint for the TSX

HIDs

will look nice with a drop

biggest disappointment has to be the powertrain selection... SMH at painful lack of a 200hp engine not paired to an automatic. Im sure the 150 will be zippy and adequate for the car but a slight bump to 170 would have been perfect for this car in this segment =/