Moderators:
Please see my post #235. I'm all for open discussion and different points of view, but this troll can't even manage a cogent argument.

 

^^I agree. While its not out of bounds to discuss what he's discussing, he's been basically jumping up and down and saying "hey look at me" since page 1 of this thread. Colin answered him on page 3, and he took this as license to hijack the thread.

We DO get the point, now could we get back to the speculation about a V6 with VCM? Possible or not, economical or not, this is about the V6 w/ VCM. It might be best for SSFTSX to start his own thread entitled "J35 vs. K23 Turbo in 2010 TSX".

 

Well you just answered why there is a market for a V6 TSX through your mindless babbling. Can we move on now?

The majority of consumers don't care about FWD versus RWD so there is a reasonable amount of overlap and inner competition between the IS and ES. The ES wins out the majority of the time though and that can be seen by sales. It would be similar for the TSX versus TL. I'm sure the addition of an optional V6 will boost TSX sales but the majority of consumers will still pick the TL over the TSX.

Honda is not stupid and they know marketing. The reasoning behind the release of a larger TL and V6 TSX is all part of their plan to move upmarket. Have you seen spy photos of the next RL? THat is going to be a much larger sedan than either TSX or TL and it will have a RWD configiration. In order to fill the gap that will be left by the RL, Acura moved the TL upmarket. In order to fill the gap of the TL moving upmarket, Acura will add a V6 TSX.

 

I didnot solved the problem. I just point out that ES is much larger in interior space than IS. while TSX/TL are much closer in interior space/size. and will essentially have similar transmission/engine performance. and if Acura made all investment in V6 engines. what will happen when all competition moves to 4 cylinder turbos with better performance/fuel economy?
Do Acura will have money left to do switch again?. It is already facing sales disaster due to TL.







TSX is 3500lb car with 4 cylinder engine. I dont see it will be less than 3800lbs with SH-AWD/V6. And since it will be premium fuel. It will have to high horsepower.

 

I find it interesting that this troll does not seem to realize that his arguments are neither logical nor persuasive.

 

^^^I believe it's his Reality Distortion Field. I agree with CJ, Honda is not stupid, too bad I can't say ..... oh never mind.

 

The last factory guys I talked to were cool on VCM. I was specifically asking about VCM in the MDX. Essentially, they felt that the technology 'over promises and under delivers,' especially if you're talking about the Performance/Luxury side of the family. IMO, I see a V6 without VCM.

 

Why do you keep bringing up BMW 4 cylinders? Anyway the TSX and TL are differentiated by size just as much as the IS/ES. The TSX is 186 in long and the TL is 195. That's a 9 inch difference that's very perceivable to the eye. Also if the rumor is true the future V6 TSX will have a much different engine from the base TL. The TSX would have VCM (for fuel savings) and only 250 hp. If SH-AWD is offered that would differentiate it even more from the base TL. The base TL has 280 hp.

You know what's interesting. The V6 VCM Accord gets the same gas mileage as the turbo 2.0T Passat even though the Accord is bigger and more powerful (71 hp more in fact).

 

What I find funny is that he contradicts himself so many times, he could have an argument all by himself! This also means there is plenty of "self spankage"

 

I think VCM could be a possibility if the Pilot type motor part of the rumor is true. The Pilot's engine has the best implementation of VCM in my opinion. Very little lost in terms of torque production and real world power. Also VCM could be used to distinguish the lesser TSX from the TL (I just hope that Acura comes up with their own acronym to help further the distinction between Acura and Honda).

 

SSFTSX:
Where, oh, where are you? Please come out with another of your lame, illogical, and unpersuasive arguments and play with us. We won't bite, troll.

 

I don't see SH-AWD as a part this equation so I'd imagine they'd be looking to manage torque in the FWD chassis. It's funny that you mention the acronyms. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that iVTEC means something different in Japan than in the US.

 

I could see that. Besides, there will still be k24 if folks want to be economical. Unlike the MDX, which has only one engine option, the TSX might be able to get away with this without alot of questions about the fuel economy.

To me, I'd be interested in how this will be marketed. Do american luxury buyers care about VCM? I don't necessarily think Acura think so, as its not so salient a point in the marketing of the MDX. So the less complex, the less costly, and the less feature-rich an engine may actually be better for image and the bottom line, especially if its just being rushed to market to fill a gap in the line up. Hopefully, they bring 6speed MT with whatever they decide.

 

With the whole acronym thing I like how things like "SH-AWD" are Acura exclusive. Acura needs more perceived "exclusive" technologies to be seen as separate from Honda. If they do use VCM call it ACM or something (Advanced Cylinder Management). That's a cheap easy way to start differentiating Honda and Acura. Even little things like VSA can be changed for Acura.

Oh, and I hope that SH-AWD is part of the equation for the TSX. That would be a very "tier one" move IMO.

 

You need to settle down. You can disagree with others, but stop the childish name calling and bickering for heaven's sake. Don't make me go any further than this warning.

 

Sure thing, boss. On with the show...

 

Thank you. Now let's keep this civil, kids.

 

It isnot the lenght of car but interior volume. TL is hardly bigger than TSX in key areas but there is big difference in interior size of IS and ES. These are two very different cars.
TSX is European Accord. It has to succeed in 400million EU market. Honda is facing sales collapse in EU. Without that market Honda will close the door. Honda lacks high performance 4 cylinder diesel and surely V6 diesel. It was the European that forced Honda into diesels. V6 EuroAccord has no chance of success in EU when BMW/Audi are turbocharging there compacts. EuroAccord costs as much as premium sedans in EU. Honda will think first how to recover in EU before it can even imagine. (Offcourse if they are not stupid) of putting V6 in TSX.
Even if they put V6 why it would be 250hp? And who will buy 250bhp TSX which will cost as much as G37 but with 80 less horsepowers and no RWD?.
Even if they put SH-AWD with V6 in TSX for 2010. Why would it be cheaper than $38K RDX 4 cylinder for that model year?. When every one is saying V6 are expensive to produce. The incremental cost of V6 is almost same whether it produces 250bhp or 300bhp. thats why even HondaAccord with regular fuel produces 271bhp much closer to 280bhp of TL.

And that TSX will be in some undetermined future date of atleast one year away by that time competition will announce 2.0L 300bhp turbos with 300ft-lb?

BMW/Audi didnot not made one time switch to turbos. it is permanent and they are going to increase horspower and refinement/fuel economy into very different level. And i believe other Japanese and detroit is going to follow suit. so why would Honda invest in some thing which has no future? and always remain in backwater. they simply have no choice. Market forced them to put 5speed auto in diesel and they did. Market is going to force them to put 6 or 7 speed auto and they will surely do but by the time they lose all competitive advantage.




Passaat 2.0T has better fuel economy than TSX. Either they sent derated engines to US market for lower price or EU calculate fuel economic differently(different speeds)
http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-co...5&ED=48253&U=0

 

Well that's a double edged sword. The Tech advances in the Acura lineup are supposed to cast a 'halo' over the mainstream Honda lineup. In order to do this, they would need to share the acronyms.

I think that SH is too heavy and too expensive to put in the TSX. Maybe for the next generation of cars? This is when they are supposed to realize their "Tier 1" aspirations. (for the record, I think the Tier 1 talk is hype).

 

When using interior specs to compare cars, you see that the TL/TSX aren't the only cars that are very similar. The A4 and A6 are very close in interior specs, and so is the ES/GS.

Honda won't go out of business if they lose sales in the EU. The US is still by far they're largest market and they're making strides in other (outside Japan) Asian markets. I don't think that Honda Europe was ever going to launch a V6 Accord. That's what the Legend is for (V6 flagship).

And the V6 TSX project is from what I understand an Acura project not a global effort. The V6 is already widely used in the US.

And to your question "who will buy 250bhp TSX which will cost as much as G37". The same can be asked of the Lexus IS250, BMW 328i, Audi A4, and MB C300. Acura is moving up and competing with true tier one manufactures and not tier one wannabe's like Infiniti, Pontiac, and Hyundai.

And I already proved to you that with VCM Honda was able to match turbo mileage with a far more powerful and larger vehicle.

 

ES/GS are differennt cars. just look at FWD/RWD/AWD setup. A4 is completely new. Just wait untill A6 goes into new platform.
TSX/TL are same thing with FWD setup. both are completly new. No chance of refresh for next 4 years.
Honda sales have collpased both in Japan and US also. and Honda now is big firm compared to 90s. It cannot survive on US sales alone.

TSX is built in Japan. There is no way they are going to invest in some thing which dont have application in rest of the world. they have to canned NSX which was much more closer to reality. Acura sales will remain less than 10k for years to come.
These are RWD drive car with tier one manufacturer. You cannot sell FWD car at those prices.
You havent proved it. because you dont know what kind of engine is offering in Passat in US.
this rating for heavier Passat wagon. Accord is not as much fun to drive as turboboost Passat.
http://reviews.cnet.com/wagon/2007-v...l?tag=txt;page
EPA fuel economy is rated at 22mpg (city) and 31mpg (highway). Our overall economy was 17.7mpg with a heavy bias toward city driving and liberal use of the right foot, but on fairly flat freeway segments, we observed between 26mpg and 28mpg.

 

Like I said most consumers don't care about which wheels are driving the car. The A4 is NOT RWD. It's FWD and so is the A6. What's wrong with the TSX and TL both being FWD with optional AWD. Tier one has to do with the brand's perception not RWD. Audi's entire lineup is FWD with optional AWD. Audi is able to sell it's vehicles for the same price or even more than BMW, MB, and Lexus. So what makes it wrong for Acura to do the same?

Also Honda's largest market by far (over 50% of all global sales) is the US market. Honda CAN survive on just US sales if they had to. Sales in Japan have been down for decades and that has to do with the fact that Japan is no longer a car culture. Honda sales in China and other emerging markets are on the rise. Since this discussion is on Acura I'd like to point out that Acura sales in China have doubled.

What haven't I proved about the Accord versus Passat? Just look at the EPA:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008c...umn=2&id=24902

 

Agree again. The TSX is too heavy and closely priced to the TL to pull both a V6 and AWD off.

 

It's wrong for Acura to do it because SSFTSX says so.

 

Did you miss the previous warning?

Correct me if I'm wrong ( I haven't read every one of his posts) but SSFTSX through all the attacks and name calling has kept it civil. Something you lack the capacity to do. Last warning.



Please make note that Audi trails BMW and MB in sales and cachet....Although they've made great strides in the last few years.

The Audi argument is a good one. And its not a bad model to follow But Acura still has a ways to go before it can start calling itself the Japanese Audi. Certainly looks like they're trying.

 

Have you seen Audi average selling price. Most of them are AWD.
Acura sells are falling even if they charge lower prices and have better fuel economy with more standard equipment than any other premium brand. The brand image is not there.
In Asia 99% sales of Honda are 4cylinder. There is even CRV diesel. V6 even USDM Accord has no place in Asia. Acura has very small presence in China.
I dont see how Honda can even think about V6 TSX Made in Japan.


As i said they measured fuel economic differently more oriented towards regular driving than spirited performance. Passsat is using engines of 5 years old.
Look at old Audi A4 Quattro. Newer one is even better in fuel economy and it is heavier car than Passat. Newer FWD A4 will be even more fuel efficient.
look at 2009. FWD Honda Accord weighs as 4cylinder TSX. It is not premium sedan.
This is fuel economy of 4000lbs AWD V6 A4 car.
This FWD V6 EX-L Accord. It is much lighter than AWD Sedans with spirited performance. You cannot do that with sport sedans.

 

IMO, I did nothing wrong. SSFTSX presents as objectively verifiable facts what appear to be only opinions. His/her view does not reality make (nor does mine, of course). Furthermore, he or she does not acknowledge legitimate criticisms of the statements that he or she makes (e.g., that the conclusions do not logically follow from the propositions). Rather, he or she impolitely ignores such criticisms. IMO, that's not 'keeping it civil,' to paraphrase you.

 

Every luxury brand's sales are falling. Acura still outsells every luxury brand except BMW, Lexus, and MB. They don't have far to go before they are selling in the same ranks as BMW and Lexus. Audi would have to nearly double monthly sales just to match Lexus and BMW.

The J35 is already produced in Japan. The Elysion and the Legend both have J35/37s so the engines already there. Also the mechanics for SH-AWD are already there (the Legend has had SH-AWD for quite some time now).

The EPA is the standard by which mileage is tested and compared in the US. The Accord wins fare and square against the Passat.

 

Every brand is falling but Acura is falling more than the others by percentage wise and average price of Acura vehicle is less than other premium brands with more standard equipment. Audi does not need to double monthly sales. It is good on global basis.
Yes Honda legend is produced in Japan.with price $10K higher than TL with no 19inch HPT tires.
but have you seen there recent production drop. Do you think it has anything to do with currencies. Japanese V6 TSX will cost as much as US built TL. and Honda has no plans of producing TSX in US.
EPA is standard when you exactly follow them. and Passat is using engine from 2004. Wait untill it updates like A4.
For premium sedan user they use much heavier foot for spirited performance and drive at higher speeds with AWD. for that turbo option with lots of low end torque is better. All Germans are doing. Honda will have to follow it.

The era of turbo is just begining. There is no point of old people VCM engine in TSX. It does not match TSX character and will definitely will be failure.

 

I don't consider that uncivil. You're reaching to say the least.

And that's rich coming from someone who seems to enjoy being argumentative.

Drop it, and join in on the conversation or ignore the thread.

 

Dom:
It would also appear that you too lack that capacity, if civil also includes treating posters in an even-handed fashion. You have focused on me, but done nothing about SSFTSX. I'll save you the trouble of doing anything after a last warning. I'll leave myself. Fuck you.

 

And don't try to come back, your account won't work.

 

He's been called an idiot, troll, loser and an arrogant sod, But has not once resorted to name calling or insults to defend his position. Whether or not you agree with him. Its obvious most of you don't, there's no reason to make things personal. Seems only (Cj) has kept things civil in their debate.

For the last time, keep this on topic. (because its a good one).

 

You can make the TSX lighter, use more high strength steel, an aluminum hood (and/or) fenders, aluminum bumper, and aluminum engine subframe. (the TL uses all of this) However, this will drive the cost up.

The photos showing the space for rear driveshafts probably mean that the Euro Accord will get AWD of some form, probably the smaller and lighter RealTime system.

BTW, I'm happy to talk about the topic at hand (ie V6 in TSX) and not Honda's future collapse in Europe, the success/failure of Audi, the fuel economy of the Passat, the feature content of Civicx/Fits in EU, the investment value of a car, price of Michelin tires or the production capacity of Honda in Japan.

 

There is huge difference between adding V6 to a family sedan and sport sedan. In sport sedan you to consider the handling and spirited performance with structural strength & right balance of weights between front & Rear. It is not just about fuel economy& power of V6.
Even if you replace the parts. It still needs alot more investment interms of design and testing.
It is highly likely they will add it as competition is doing.
Honda does not exist in isolation. otherwise they would continue with NSX contrary to there bold claims from past.
They are no longer technological leaders and as laggards they have to take into account what other Automakers are already doing.

 

Ban me if wanna, BUT that wasn't called for, IMHO! You sure you've read all of SSFTSX's post? While he shouldn't be banned, most of what says just seems a little too arrogant, to me!
Why didn't you ban Colin?(oh, I forgot, he's an Acura salesman)
You and LUVMYTSX came down a little too harsh on H1K1F1, IMO. Continue the ARROGANCE!

 

Wow, the previous post have been entertaining, folks must have gotten too much sugar during Christmas. I will go out on the limb and agree with the point that SSFTSX is trying to make. SSFTSX appears to be familiar in the auto legislation/direction based upon the quotes he pulls up, so give him credit.

With all of that said, I think Acura putting a gasoline V-6 in the TSX would be a wrong direction in today's world. The reasons:

1) Corp Ave Fuel economy regulations are forcing high gas milage/low displacement engine development for all auto manufacturers. They are scrambling to meet better numbers. The 4 cyl TSX helps Acura tremendously as an offset to the cross overs they have.

2) The American society has turned to be more "green" as a fashion statement. I am not sure if this is a trend or not, but the direction is catching up where Europe and Japan already are. V-6's are considered to be less fashionable than the 4, however better than a V-8.

3) Acura wants to be seen as a technolgy leader - thus the term "Acura Advanced".

4) Future high gas milage/high performance engines will be low displacement, direct inject, turbo (or super) charged. There is a lot of technology/cost in the development of this, and will be seen as more sophisticated and leading edge. Putting a direct inject turbo charged 4 cyl engine in the TSX will give it the higher performance spirit, while at the same time provide Acura on the road development on its entry level vehicle instead of the heavier, more expensive vehicles. Acura can tote it in the "Advanced" theme. There will be less risk to Acura with this approach. Why would Acura/Honda want to invest more in producing additional gasoline V-6's when they need to be investing in lower displacement engines? Trust me, it is not as simple as putting in more orders for the V-6 engine to be built.

5) Putting in a gasoline V-6 in the TSX will be a confusing public direction for Acura/Honda, which is seen as the most energy efficient auto manufacturer in the world.

6) Acura has already announced they are bringing out a diesel for the TSX. The diesel will provide the torque, higher HP, and fuel efficiency, however at a premium for the engine and fuel (Pay back can take about 5 to 9 years, depending on cost of the engine and gas/diesel price variations). The trick is for Americans to accept the diesel as "green" (Many still have memories of the GM 1980's fiasco with the blue burning behemouths with poor reliability). If Americans do accept it, then they will get a higher performing vehicle, with better gas milage, and lower emissions.

For these reasons is why other manufacturers, such as Audi/MB are bringing in higher performing 4 cylinders, thus why SSFTSX uses them as an example.

Would a Gasoline V-6 been great??? Yes it would, however, the time has passed. I will tell you that the current powertrain is why I went with the TSX instead of the IS-250 and CTS. I use the car as a 35 mile fun/winding road commute and needed the better milage.

 

Where do I begin.

H1K1F1 is more trouble than he's worth. This is the second occasion where he's been argumentative and looking to pick a fight. He's had plenty of warning. Good riddance.

SSFTSX made no personal attacks against anyone. Arrogance and having a different opinion isn't a reason for discipline. But he should begin staying more on topic.

You think I didn't ban Colin because he's a Acura salesman? First of all Colin is in no way affiliated with this site. We do have paying Acura vendors that are. He actually goes out of his way to ensure he's not advertising his dealer or trying to make a sale. And he's been doing so successfully for years. We've banned plenty of Acura salesman over the years. Colin seems to be the only one who actually wants to be a part of this community.

IMHO you probably shouldn't speak of things of which you have very little knowledge. Sorry if that sounds arrogant.

 

It does! There's a little poem that starts: He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not; He's a fool...shun him. Seems familiar? kthanxbye!

 

Acura is supposed to be a luxury brand. How are they supposed to become tier 1 if they give us decked out Honda Fits or sedans with 20 second quarter mile times? People who buy luxury cars generaly don't put fuel efficiency at the top of their requirements.