Shake/vibration with tires that have been road force balanced
05-10-2007, 09:06 AM
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Shake/vibration with tires that have been road force balanced
I'm sure some of you have read my posts about the shaking/vibration that started when I replaced the OEM Michelin's on my 2003 TL-P with Yoko Avid V4s. Here is a quick summary (sorry but this is gonna be long):
- Replaced tires, and got an alignment, had vibration over 50 mph
- Took it back and rebalanced, still have vibration (steering wheel and seat)
- Took it back again for rebalance, same deal.
- Took it back once more after finding out that they were not using a Road Force balancer and were just "spin balancing them". This time, they said that I have 2 tires out of round and 1 bent rim.
- Got a new rim and 2 replacement tires (warranty). RF balanced the 2 new tires/rim again and all were within limits (9 lbs). I still have a vibration over 55, especially between 65 and 75. Tire pressure is 34 on all 4.
I called the shop today and asked about high speed RF balancing and they said that about 45 mph is as fast as the machines go. He said that it could be something in the drive train, a brake caliper issue, or maybe just the way those tires ride. Given that lots of people on this board have that tire and the reports on Tire Rack for it, I find it hard to believe that the tire causes my steering wheel to noticeably vibrate/shake at higher speeds.
Given that the vibration issues didn't exist before I got the tires, I am wondering if they F'd something up doing the alignment and/or mounting, or if maybe it is just the way those tires ride. I am debating on going to a different shop and dropping $130+ for them to RF balance to verify that the other shop isn't just F'ing it up.
One interesting thing is that it doesn't vibrate the same amount at all times. The road surface (e.g. major highway/interstate) will not change, yet my wheel will shake worse at some times than others, and sometimes not at all, even though my speed has not changed. Could be the amt of weight on front/back of the car (i.e. hills), but it doesn't always seem to be.
Anyone have any other ideas? CV joint bad? Drive train issue? I may end up just taking it to the dealer and seeing if they can find anything wrong with it.
- Replaced tires, and got an alignment, had vibration over 50 mph
- Took it back and rebalanced, still have vibration (steering wheel and seat)
- Took it back again for rebalance, same deal.
- Took it back once more after finding out that they were not using a Road Force balancer and were just "spin balancing them". This time, they said that I have 2 tires out of round and 1 bent rim.
- Got a new rim and 2 replacement tires (warranty). RF balanced the 2 new tires/rim again and all were within limits (9 lbs). I still have a vibration over 55, especially between 65 and 75. Tire pressure is 34 on all 4.
I called the shop today and asked about high speed RF balancing and they said that about 45 mph is as fast as the machines go. He said that it could be something in the drive train, a brake caliper issue, or maybe just the way those tires ride. Given that lots of people on this board have that tire and the reports on Tire Rack for it, I find it hard to believe that the tire causes my steering wheel to noticeably vibrate/shake at higher speeds.
Given that the vibration issues didn't exist before I got the tires, I am wondering if they F'd something up doing the alignment and/or mounting, or if maybe it is just the way those tires ride. I am debating on going to a different shop and dropping $130+ for them to RF balance to verify that the other shop isn't just F'ing it up.
One interesting thing is that it doesn't vibrate the same amount at all times. The road surface (e.g. major highway/interstate) will not change, yet my wheel will shake worse at some times than others, and sometimes not at all, even though my speed has not changed. Could be the amt of weight on front/back of the car (i.e. hills), but it doesn't always seem to be.
Anyone have any other ideas? CV joint bad? Drive train issue? I may end up just taking it to the dealer and seeing if they can find anything wrong with it.
05-10-2007, 09:44 AM
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You can check to see if you have a bent rim or bad tire yourself:
Jack it up so the front tires are off the ground, and put it on jackstands. Make sure it won't fall off by shaking the car. Put it in drive or 1st gear and then get out and look at the tires and wheels. You'll be able to see a bad tire or wheel easily, they will appear to 'wobble' if they aren't perfectly round or true. Look at the rim and the tread. Swap the fronts to the rears and repeat. If you don't find a bad one, it must be balance.
A CV joint or drive train problem is not likely, both because it started when you changed the tires, and it'd have to be REALLY bad to cause the vibration, and you'd have other clicking/clunking symptoms.
Jack it up so the front tires are off the ground, and put it on jackstands. Make sure it won't fall off by shaking the car. Put it in drive or 1st gear and then get out and look at the tires and wheels. You'll be able to see a bad tire or wheel easily, they will appear to 'wobble' if they aren't perfectly round or true. Look at the rim and the tread. Swap the fronts to the rears and repeat. If you don't find a bad one, it must be balance.
A CV joint or drive train problem is not likely, both because it started when you changed the tires, and it'd have to be REALLY bad to cause the vibration, and you'd have other clicking/clunking symptoms.
05-10-2007, 10:22 AM
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sb65,
This is also in answer to your question in the other thread: "So did the RF balancing do the trick? Are they balanced better now?"
They are balanced much better now. There's no longer vibration through the chassis. I do notice some vibration through the steering wheel, but it depends on the road surface. For example, I295 between exits 36 and 40 causes this. However, the wheel doesn't actually shake like it did before the balance.
I'll chalk this up to stiffer sidewalls transmitting road imperfections into the steering, and maybe being more attuned to vibration issues. Maybe it did this with the OEM Michelins to some extent, but I wasn't thinking about it then, and just don't remember.
Also, I know that the front rotors are a little warped, but it's only evident at very high speeds. I don't know if this is a contributing factor.
This is also in answer to your question in the other thread: "So did the RF balancing do the trick? Are they balanced better now?"
They are balanced much better now. There's no longer vibration through the chassis. I do notice some vibration through the steering wheel, but it depends on the road surface. For example, I295 between exits 36 and 40 causes this. However, the wheel doesn't actually shake like it did before the balance.
I'll chalk this up to stiffer sidewalls transmitting road imperfections into the steering, and maybe being more attuned to vibration issues. Maybe it did this with the OEM Michelins to some extent, but I wasn't thinking about it then, and just don't remember.
Also, I know that the front rotors are a little warped, but it's only evident at very high speeds. I don't know if this is a contributing factor.
05-10-2007, 10:30 AM
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Hey Martinb,
Yeah, my front rotors are warped all to hell, but I can't see how that would cause any vibration issues except when braking unless someting is messed up with the brakes and the pads are making slight contact with the rotor at higher speeds. I need to get that issue fixed anyway though, so maybe that will correct my current problem.
I have actual shake probably 50% of the time, i.e. if I am holding the steering wheel with my left hand (at the top of the wheel), I can see my watch shaking back and forth and sometimes you can actually see the steering wheel shaking, but not always. It is the intermittent thing that troubles me ....
Yeah, my front rotors are warped all to hell, but I can't see how that would cause any vibration issues except when braking unless someting is messed up with the brakes and the pads are making slight contact with the rotor at higher speeds. I need to get that issue fixed anyway though, so maybe that will correct my current problem.
I have actual shake probably 50% of the time, i.e. if I am holding the steering wheel with my left hand (at the top of the wheel), I can see my watch shaking back and forth and sometimes you can actually see the steering wheel shaking, but not always. It is the intermittent thing that troubles me ....
05-10-2007, 04:23 PM
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Couple issues.
If you have aftermarket wheels:
1. Do you have hub centric rings. That will make a HUGE difference having those on.
2. Are you using the proper lug nuts? Acorn, Ball seat, etc.
I was having vibration issues with a perfect balance on the machine and still vibrating. I took it to my trusty Discount Tire manager at different store that is way on the other side of town and he started investigating. He found that I had ball seat lugs and should of had acorn style. That made all the difference, even with a hub centric ring installed. So now, my ride is smooth as glass and I am on 235/35/19 tires! I kept wondering why my lugs would get loose and I could re-torque them once a week and get at least a quarter turn with my torque wrench...I never suspected the lug nuts.
If you have aftermarket wheels:
1. Do you have hub centric rings. That will make a HUGE difference having those on.
2. Are you using the proper lug nuts? Acorn, Ball seat, etc.
I was having vibration issues with a perfect balance on the machine and still vibrating. I took it to my trusty Discount Tire manager at different store that is way on the other side of town and he started investigating. He found that I had ball seat lugs and should of had acorn style. That made all the difference, even with a hub centric ring installed. So now, my ride is smooth as glass and I am on 235/35/19 tires! I kept wondering why my lugs would get loose and I could re-torque them once a week and get at least a quarter turn with my torque wrench...I never suspected the lug nuts.
05-10-2007, 05:03 PM
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CJITTY,
I have OEM Acura wheels. I am using whatever lug nuts came on the car, which I am 99% sure are OEM, and honestly, I wouldn't know an acorn from ball seat nut. I definitely don't know if they have hub centric rings.
I rotated the old tires once or twice and the lug nuts were definitely not loose. I wonder if my lugs are over tightened and that could cause any issues??? This stuff is all new to me. I've never had a lick of balancing trouble with replacement tires on my cars. I've always drove out after an hour with new tires and a smooth as glass ride, and that is without any Road Force balancing or anything.
I have OEM Acura wheels. I am using whatever lug nuts came on the car, which I am 99% sure are OEM, and honestly, I wouldn't know an acorn from ball seat nut. I definitely don't know if they have hub centric rings.
I rotated the old tires once or twice and the lug nuts were definitely not loose. I wonder if my lugs are over tightened and that could cause any issues??? This stuff is all new to me. I've never had a lick of balancing trouble with replacement tires on my cars. I've always drove out after an hour with new tires and a smooth as glass ride, and that is without any Road Force balancing or anything.
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05-10-2007, 05:25 PM
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If you are still having issues with the tires id contact teh manufacturer of the tires and deal with them.
05-11-2007, 08:26 AM
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Not sure it is time to take things back to the mfr yet. I should probably try another shop for balancing first and rule out any other mechanical issues. I sure do miss the smooth ride I used to have though.
05-11-2007, 11:27 AM
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I'm a lurker and haven't posted ever, but I've got the same problem. I have to take the car back to Tires Plus this weekend. Brand new set of oem sized Avid V4's from tirerack and past 60 mph the wheel can vibrate so much on some surfaces my watch shakes. This is after they put G009's on the car ... those things are like jello and weren't balanced so I took them back. The car didn't vibrate with the oem michelins that had 2/32 of tread on the stock Acura Rims (not the 5 spoke, but the 14 spoke chromes).
I did notice that the yellow and red dots don't line up with the stem like I noticed some of the threads talked about. Anyone had any luck with this? SB65, how are yours installed?
I did notice that the yellow and red dots don't line up with the stem like I noticed some of the threads talked about. Anyone had any luck with this? SB65, how are yours installed?
05-11-2007, 12:48 PM
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Montaigne,
Sounds like we are in the same boat, so let's stay connected on this. I know that when they mounted the tires, they said that they had to "turn" the tire on the wheel to get it to balance, meaning that they couldn't line it up using the marks. I'll double check the marks and post on how mine are mounted.
Sounds like we are in the same boat, so let's stay connected on this. I know that when they mounted the tires, they said that they had to "turn" the tire on the wheel to get it to balance, meaning that they couldn't line it up using the marks. I'll double check the marks and post on how mine are mounted.
05-11-2007, 01:38 PM
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OEM wheels won't have hub centric rings. Your lugs should be OEM then. Hub centric rings basically allow an aftermarket wheel to fit snug on the hub for better/smoother ride, similar to the fit of the OEM wheel.
05-11-2007, 03:08 PM
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sb65,
For sure. Like I said, I'm going in tomorrow. I figure that gives them a good 12 hours to balance and rebalance. It's just irritating to spend almost $500 on new tires and then have the steering wheel vibrate all the time. I'll post with whatever happens.
For sure. Like I said, I'm going in tomorrow. I figure that gives them a good 12 hours to balance and rebalance. It's just irritating to spend almost $500 on new tires and then have the steering wheel vibrate all the time. I'll post with whatever happens.
06-08-2007, 09:13 PM
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Update on road force balancing
Update: I eventually realized that the vibration wasn't road harshness but a balance issue. I had them check the balance, and both front tires were off by 1/2 oz. The manager swore that 1/2 oz. couldn't make a difference (and implied that I was an idiot when I said the Pilot Sports are more sensitive to balance issues due to stiff sidewalls than the OEM tires). He claimed that there is something wrong with my car (shot struts, etc.) but they did redo the balance. (With the stipulation that this was the last "free" balance.) That did it, no more vibration.
As an aside, it's amazing that a small business manager (maybe the owner) would rather win debating points than establish a lasting customer relationship! The guy could have taken a positive approach and told me this should fix it even if he wasn't sure, instead of blaming the car (instead of his tech)... That's one place I'm not using again.
So what it ultimately comes down to is that the Hunter machine is only as good as the tech using it. Apparently 1/2 oz. does matter.
If anyone wants to know where NOT to go in South Jersey, e-mail me directly. In today's litigious environment I'm not going to post that information.
As an aside, it's amazing that a small business manager (maybe the owner) would rather win debating points than establish a lasting customer relationship! The guy could have taken a positive approach and told me this should fix it even if he wasn't sure, instead of blaming the car (instead of his tech)... That's one place I'm not using again.
So what it ultimately comes down to is that the Hunter machine is only as good as the tech using it. Apparently 1/2 oz. does matter.
If anyone wants to know where NOT to go in South Jersey, e-mail me directly. In today's litigious environment I'm not going to post that information.
06-08-2007, 10:27 PM
#15
Why do you think they make weights in 1/4 oz increments
Lazy or untrained uncaring under the influence underpaid
I take my tires to a local shop that sells race tires and does shaving and everything
100 mph balance- sure we can do that- want us to cut the tires perfectly round too?
Cmon let me make them racing depth for you-- we got a new tire lathe!
Lazy or untrained uncaring under the influence underpaid
I take my tires to a local shop that sells race tires and does shaving and everything
100 mph balance- sure we can do that- want us to cut the tires perfectly round too?
Cmon let me make them racing depth for you-- we got a new tire lathe!
06-08-2007, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 01tl4tl
Why do you think they make weights in 1/4 oz increments
Lazy or untrained uncaring under the influence underpaid
I take my tires to a local shop that sells race tires and does shaving and everything
100 mph balance- sure we can do that- want us to cut the tires perfectly round too?
Cmon let me make them racing depth for you-- we got a new tire lathe!
Lazy or untrained uncaring under the influence underpaid
I take my tires to a local shop that sells race tires and does shaving and everything
100 mph balance- sure we can do that- want us to cut the tires perfectly round too?
Cmon let me make them racing depth for you-- we got a new tire lathe!
06-08-2007, 11:43 PM
#17
Make sure you mark a lug nut to wheel location now, so if the tires come off for any reason they go back on EXACTLY where they were- or balance in null
06-11-2007, 06:02 PM
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Yeah, I heard that from installers too. 1/2 ounce is a lot, and if you have 19" wheels like I do, those numbers better read zero's all the way across or you will feel it!
06-13-2007, 08:06 PM
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Finally!
I took an approx. 120 mile trip on high speed roads. What a difference the last balance made... 80+ MPH and no vibration that isn't due to bumps in the road.
BTW, I don't know if it's my imagination, but the Pilot Sport A/S seemed to have gotten a little quieter after breaking in.
BTW, I don't know if it's my imagination, but the Pilot Sport A/S seemed to have gotten a little quieter after breaking in.
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