Well i got the car aligned today, no camber kit needed. I got the toe adjusted and it's driving sooooo much better. It's not pulling to the left anymore... glad I got this done. Besides eating up the tires, I'm sure it was killing my gas mileage too... To everyone needing an alignment, get it... Find a good shop that wont just say "You need a camber kit".... There are shops out there willing to work on it without a camber kit lol...

 

shops that are doing alignments without camber kits are just stealing money from the cars owner, the only thing that can be adjusted is toe, so if your lucky enough to have the proper camber reading which should actually be 0, then you don't need to change it. Now the facory has a pretty loose spec so that is how the shop can get by with saying it's within factory specs, Never have I ever aligned a car to factory spec's, i've always set them at zero and with 3/4 degree spread on the caster, If I didn't it would pull, that is why you set camber to 0.

FYI toe unless extreme doesn't cause a pull, bad tires, too much cross caster, and camber does.

 

Maybe.. But before the toe adjustment, my car always pulled left... Now it doesnt. Steering wheel was off and now it's not. Car was shaking while driving, now it doesnt. So I guess the toe adjustment was good enough for me.

 

no the parts that they replaced did, steering wheel being off is directly related to the toe setting, shaking is caused by loose parts or out of balance tires, or old cupped tires. I'm sure there was more done to the car than you are admitting to. Toe cannot and will not make the car pull unless its out several inches and which your tires would be bald on the inside or outside depending on if it was toed in or toed out if it's off enough to create pull. Most people will confuse the steering being off center as having a pull because they want to correct it and when they do it's not going down the road straight and so it's got a pull, if you let go of the wheel the car should travel straight down the road, regardless of the steering wheels orientation, if it doesn't then you don't have it aligned correctly.

 

the shop that tells you it needs a camber kit is a quality shop and you shoudl use them

a shop that doesn't use a camber kit, needs to provide a print out to show the camber settings are at zero thus not requiring adjustment or the camber kit or the car all ready have one installed so that adjustment can be made.

A shop that tells you you don't need a camber kit to align the car is stealing your money and only setting toe, a fifteen minute job, BTW.

 

Since this car does not allow for camber adjustments, a shop that says they can align it without one is fine.

They just have to let you know that the car will be out of spec, that's all.

You can have the toe adjusted in such a manner that even though the alignment is not within factory settings, the tires will wear pretty even, and the car will track straight.

 

Admitting to? I was standing right there with them. Nothing was replaced. Toe adjusted. Car is straight. Maybe my difinition of "aligment" is off, but the symptoms that I had are no longer there. Toe was adjusted because I have no camber to adjust.

 

I disagree with the above information from my own experience.
I ran -2.1 rear camber and my tires wore evenly...maybe lost a little due to uneven wear, but realistically, the "good" side (outer) part of the tire was so low that even if that was spread across the whole thing the tire would have been considered bald. All I had adjusted was the Toe and I do have a LITTLE cross caster causing a slight pull to the right.

If the car is lowered and the Toe is going outward with newer tires, I could see how riding on the inner ridges of the tires could give you some slight vibration feeling.

When I adjusted my suspension and back down, I needed to get a new alignment...I decided if I was going to pay for that, I would just spring for a camber kit anyway (used an ebay brand one...so far no issues) but I wouldn't say I NEEDED it.

Either way, even with the kit, it was set at -.7 or something. Factory spec is -1 rear and I've gotten a Green on the front (within spec) for as bad as -1.3 camber. Either they are in cahoots with the tire manuf. or the car manufacturers figure some negative camber will prevent some loss of traction when doing evasive maneuvering to avoid a collision or something.

Anyway, I'm assuming you do this for a living, so not questioning your methods, just providing my own feedback/experience for the benefit of anyone researching. There's my way, there's your way...then somewhere around there is the right way, I'm sure.

J.

 

Exactly.. Ty

 

Exactly.. Ty. I was just simply trying to say that a toe adjustment is all some members may need. The debate is huge on whether u need a camber kit or not. Some may even say a camber kit contribute to tire wear.. Read Excellerates article on that...

 

for clarification, those other posts came after...this was directed at the rcb

 

We are talking two different cases, front wheel alignment and rear wheel alignment.

Rear wheels are always set with negitive camber, why anyone know?

What happens when you load up the trunk after shopping? what happens when you have rear seat passengers? the rear of the car lowers maybe?, does the front move?

With all rear wheel indpendant suspension cars they are all set with negitive camber about a degree or so depending on manufacturer, the reason for this is when the rear of the car is loaded down it changes the camber angle and adds positive camber, the end result the tire runs closer to the zero when loaded and where the added weight effects tire wear more.

No from the factory these cars do not have any adjustments for castor or camber only toe is adjustable. does that mean that they can not be aligned? no parts need modified or replaced to allow for adjustment. Very common practice across all makes and models.

Case in point the old chevette's not adjustment unless you replace the upper ball joint and then you where limited how much camber could be added. Almost every GM car with front strut suspension, from the factory no adjustment, fix, grind out the slot in the strut that allows for the 2 degrees of camber adjustment.

These cars are no different if you want the car aligned correctly you have to have camber kits and then a few other tricks if you want to dial in the caster as well.

So I've done thousands and thousands of alignments foriegn domistic cars truck, ford i-beam so I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Evey manufactures specs are very large and can actually cause a pull and still be within factory specification, But if you look they are all plus or minus a degree from zero, same type of range on the rear its just centered on a negitive degree enstead.

So if you want to believe all the bullshit the tire store alignment tech tells you thats fine,

you want to run hard at the track or want to have the care handle flawlessly listen and take notes from what I have told you,

set ups for the track are completely different than what you would have for the street and a daily driver. Running over a 1/2 degree camber will wear out your tires not as fast as toe will if it's off but wear none the less. Have a half degree of spread on camber it'll pull bank on it, equall amounts your fine your trade off will be tire wear. If you feel that your eye can measure 1/32 of and inch then you can judge tire wear otherwise I suggest you get the gauge out and inspect the tread depth and you'll find that it's not wearing evenly.

 

yes that is true all that might be required is a toe adjustment, but then that might be all the shop ever does since the factory hasn't provided a means to adjust camber or it's within factory specs. if you have over a 1/4 degree positive or negitive camber it needs a camber kit.


The camber kit doesn't cause tire wear the dumb ass that didn't set camber correctly after a camber kit was installed causes the tire wear because the car is not aligned properly.

 

Brother...

Your main example was a Chevette, so you're clearly "old school". I'm sure for a certain demographic of car, you are well versed.

Didn't want you get butthurt, which is why I ended with "everyone has a theory", but I did give you respect saying I know probably have a vast knowledge of the stuff. In reference to FWD, or Honda's, or even this car in particular, when you make a comment like

"the reason for this is when the rear of the car is loaded down it changes the camber angle and adds positive camber, the end result the tire runs closer to the zero when loaded and where the added weight effects tire wear more"

It makes me feel like in this particular case, you may NOT know what the f*** you're talking about because whether it be lowering your car or carrying a corpse in the trunk...when weighed down or lowered, our cars gain NEGATIVE camber making it get worse than -1.0 (which is factory spec).

I am not a genius. And I am not spewing off what a tiresplus empoyee told me. I'm sharing my own personal experiences during my quest for not wasting tires after lowering many of my cars. Mr. Heeltoe, a vendor on here has a whole blog dedicated to this theory of TOE being the tire killer and camber wear (unless INTENSE...i.e. -4) will be minimal.

 

 

And he didn't respond after that...
Hmm...reminds me of a Willy Nelson song..."know when to hold em, know when to fold em!".

Either way, wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I just think when you do something for a really long time you think your way is gospel and the second you think there's nothing left to learn is the day you fall behind with new technology.

 

some people actually have a life and don't sit in front of a screeen constantly chit chating because they lack a social life.

I agree camber does ware less verse toe, but camber effects handling much more than toe ever will, also, rear toe will pull because it's fixed, front will always selfcenter regardless it's free to move unlike the rear, so theory for you, actually having done it for a living is real world experience with many satisfied customers and not some BS hear say dick smack joe or herry dumb ass at the tire store telling stories and being replay by the lesser

 

hey not know what the fuck your talking about the real spec is a negitive half degree and not a negitive degree for the record you might want to actually read the service manual before you start quoting specs, I was speaking in general terms about rear wheel alignment for independant rear supsensions and not specificly the TL.

And yes if you screwed up your suspension so bad and dropped it down so low where the mounting points on the chassy are now lower than the attachment points on the spindle then yes it will go even further negitive and have a very stiff bouncy ride and bottom out on the mechincal stops. but what the f... I've never aligned vehicle in my life? so maybe I should be listingin to your wisdom on the subject because on a properly set up suspension it goes positive and you have a nice smooth ride as you travel down the road with no hands or knees

 

 

some people actually have a life and don't sit in front of a screen constantly chitchatting because they lack a social life.

I agree camber does wear less versus toe, but camber affects handling much more than toe ever will, also, rear toe will pull because it's fixed, front will always self-center regardless it's free to move unlike the rear, so theory for you, actually having done it for a living is real world experience with many satisfied customers and not some BS heresay dick smack joe or herry dumb ass at the tire store telling stories and being replayed by the lesser

hey not know what the fuck your're talking about the real spec is a negative half degree and not a negative degree for the record you might want to actually read the service manual before you start quoting specs, I was speaking in general terms about rear wheel alignment for independent rear supsensions and not specifically the TL.

And yes if you screwed up your suspension so bad and dropped it down so low where the mounting points on the chassis are now lower than the attachment points on the spindle then yes it will go even further negitive and have a very stiff bouncy ride and bottom out on the mechanical stops. but what the f... I've never aligned vehicle in my life? so maybe I should be listening to your wisdom on the subject because on a properly set up suspension it goes positive and you have a nice smooth ride as you travel down the road with no hands or knees


I guess the "lesser" has spent some time in a grammar class in addition to the interwebz chitchatting. I was speaking in reference to the TL, not in general, because that's what the OP was asking about. I don't care how you try and tapdance around what you're saying. You lower a car with weight, or suspension, you get negative camber. No question about it. Over the last few years, I've definitely gone from doing it the wrong way and had a bouncy ride, then have graduated to lowering a car properly to where it handles very well and rides like stock.

I mentioned 3 different times that it was not an attack and that I thought you were very well qualified and had much experience, but you may be a bit "off" in your diagnosis. Your claimed experience makes it seem like you're older and to be respected, but your posts seem like you are young and brash (rude). Anyway, have a great day.

J.

 

Dude you don't have a fucking clue guess that is why it took you three trys to get it.

Read the fine detail and how the attachment points of the suspension linkage relative to each other and how they interact with each other and what effect they have on camber and castor.

for the record negitive camber wears the inside tread, toe out wears the inside tread, toe in and positive camber wears the outside When your ass is ASE certified in suspensions come back and join in but untill your on that level of knowledge please don't.

 

And some of what you posted is wrong. You claim that as the car gets loaded the suspension compresses and creates positive camber hence why the car comes with some neg in the rear. Thats not true. No one is questioning whether toe wears tires or neg camber wears tires. (though 1/4 deg of toe will wear tires faster than -1 deg of camber) and you also say that camber effects handling more than toe. Yes and no. Neg camber can have a positive effect on handling much more so than a negative effect. (though there is a limit to how much helps) Toe on the other hand can help when racing but normal driving it can be a pain and cause the car to wander. (trust me i have been setting up my suspension for years for racing) 1/4 toe out will help on the track but it will drive like shit on the road causing the car to want to follow the road crown and ruts much more so than not having it. Throw in a good set of tires and it only amplifies it.

 

the only thing I truly believe you're certified in is being an ahole. This is a good example of how people can take a test, pass something, stamp themselves certified and then walk around spewing off incorrect information as fact. I'm sure at SEARS, you are an alignment GOD with all the soccer Mom cars that come through there, but the fact that you still think all lowered cars are bouncy and have worse handling tells me that you're very limited in your self proclaimed "expertise".


Fsttyms1, glad you understood what I was getting at and agreed.

 

yes it is true, it depends on where the mounting points for the suspension linkage on the body relative to the spindle attachment points are and there relationship vertically. If the attachment point on the body is higher than the spindle it's true and you set up the car with negitive camber and as it is loaded it goes towards zero then back to negitive depending on how much it is loaded. If enough weight is added then it causes the body attachment points to go beyond the spindle attachment points and then in to the negitive range. i.e, cars aligned with no weight added and is set to -.5 has weight is added it will go positove from the .5 set to a maximum value which is equal to the attachment points almost being level, then it moves past that point and then moves the camber in a negitive direction.

look at it this way and this is simplified some what but look at a clock face the attachment for the body is the center of the clock, the linkage while at rest is angled down and forms a straight line from the center to say 5 oclock, as the supension travels throughts its range of motion the arm on the face would go to 3 oclock and at this position you have the maximum positive change in camber, now as it continues to travel up to 1 oclock it decreases that positive gain and goes back to the orginal setting.

So if you have lowered the car then it would be more like going from 3 to 1:30 to 12:00 this is all relative to the mounting points and the suspension travel.


So if the car is at normal ride height you set it with negitive camber on the rear and as it's loaded it moves in a positive direction it may or may not go to zero or higher but that is dependant upon the starting camber setting.

Now if you have lowered the ride height you have change the suspension geometry and the starting angles to a degree so you would want to set the camber to a slight positive setting because in this cause as it is loaded it will move in a negitive direction from the camber setting as it is loaded.

So depending upon the ride height of the car, the ride height will effect if the rear camber moves in a positive direction or in a negitive direction from the starting point. In a stock application where the suspension has not been modified it will go in a positive direction, in a modified application where it is lowered and if lowered enough it will move in a negitive direction.


Also little tip 1/8 toe in and increase the caster will improve your handle while racing much more than having the front end toed out and running low caster.

 

 

Ok. That's all well and good...but again, he wasn't asking for a lecture on obtuse angles and why some suspensions will gain positive camber when others gain negative. As a matter of fact, he wasn't asking for anything. He was telling everyone how happy he was that he got an alignment and the perceived benefits of it.

I understand and agree with what you have posted. But in relation to the TL, and especially the rear of the car. Based on the angles of the control arms relative the hub and where it sits in relation to the car. You start with negative camber, and you will get increasingly bad camber as you go lower and lower whether it be lowering the car, or weighing it down.

Again, no hard feelings. Seems like you took it the wrong way.

J.

 

you missed the finer points of the explaination and how the system functions Sears please tire shop with tire shop dumb asses. Try specializing in alignments not too many of them around anymore since the invention of struts have taken over and replace wish bone type suspension with pretty much limited adjustability to either toe only or toe and limited camber setting and none allow for caster adjustment. So when you stupid ass has aligned thousands of vehicles with normal ride heights, raised ride heights and lower ride heights then you can start talking shit but in till then shut the fuck up and learn something new.

 

most just drop it and don't worry about getting the alignment correct and they look like shit with the top of the wheel tucked in and the bottom hangin out handle like shit wears the hell out of the tires and puts the whole suspension in a bind. you lower you have to set it with positive camber in the rear especially if it's extremely lower.


have old boy that is so happy with his new alignment that they changed the toe and it corrected his pull, cross the two front tires back from the store switching them and his pull will be back, Front toe does not cause a pull end of story not possible.

 

You sir, have a fine day. I have YET to be disrespectful to you (other than the ahole comment) yet you began and keep provoking.

Well...I'm not one of them. I don't think i'd be able to achieve positive camber, to be honest though...I don't have the room between top of tire and fender. I am lowered to the point of no tire to fender gap, and have the rear set almost at zero. Drives just fine.

 

So if I got a camber kit, would everyone just get along? Lol.. Listen, I posted what I posted and was called a liar basically because I wasn't admitting to the "other" work that was done. If I got the toe adjusted, that's what I got done... There's your way, there's my way, there's everyones way... My car was pulling, now it's not. If adjusting the toe doesn't fix that, then hallelujah because my car is tracking straight now when it wasn't before. As said before and by many people... Camber kits aren't needed. If you go that route then good for you, but I'm good with the job I got done and nobody is complaining here. A simple, "I suggest a camber" would've been cool. You guys seem to know 10x more than I do, yet nobody seems to be right or wrong, hence the many articles outhere saying you don't need a kit.. Damm shit got crazy for a minute lol.

 

Explain to me how Front toe does not cause the car to pull? If one tire is | and one is / its going to want to wander. If the tires are \ / it may drive straight while equally toed, BUT once the wheel is turned increasing the toe on one over the other the car will dart.

And as for 1/8 toe in, being better. No, not really. It will have better straight line stability BUT Steering response will be improved with toe-out and will have better turn in and will often help induce a bit of oversteer (helpful with FWD)

 

If you have a few minutes and are not too good to be enlightened. Give this a read. I dare you tell him he doesn't know his sh*t!!
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.pl?num=1162587420
fsttyms1, you clearly know what you're talking about.

djescobar, as I said before...MAN...if it's fixed...that is GREAT!!!

 

this thread has been quite entertaining to say the least.. i have NEVER seen anyone get so bent out of shape for honestly no reason except to argue it seems.. the OP obviously knows what the situation was with his car and is satisfied with the outcome.. he realizes that a camber kit could be used, but doesnt feel its necessary for his setup right now..

amazing.

 

Lot of debate in here.

Makes me glad I've got a good alignment guy. He seems to be the only one in town that actually knows what he's doing. Funny thing is that he's using equipment that's probably 50 years old and he still does a better job than shops that have the most technologically advanced equipment around.

 

as your going down the road it self centers and why the steering wheel is not center either.

you'll never have the tires going down the road I / or \ I they will always go back to \ /

when your on the rack and have all the gauges hooked up you'll get the I / or any combination, but once it starts rolling down the road the tires will want to go outward and why you set toe slightly inward even more so on a FWD. On a FWD setting toe 1/8 in yields 0 when your driving and under power, setting it out only makes it go out more when underway.

If your going straight down the road and loose a tie rod which way does the tire go in or out? it will go out evertime uless there is a hole or rock or some object in the way to force it to go in or your in a curve and it's all ready turned inward, otherwise it goes out.

Also you have to increase the caster if you want to have the same characteristics as your toe out setting, but you'll get much better and more even wear by bring it back to zero or 1/8 in and increased positve caster, you'll also want to be running negitive camber too, now that is for the track and not something you want to do on a daily driver.

 

did you have a chance to read the link i posted?

 

Explain to me how a fixed setting can go from /\ to \ / It cant. Thats why you adjust to get to specs. If that were the case there would be NO point in having an alignment because as you say it would go to \/ any way.

And you obviously havent set up a track setup, because the majority of people who do take the time to do so will usually add about 1/4 toe out for better turn in NOT 1/8 in.

Do some google searches and read the link posted above. You will see that your info isnt correct.

 

^^^I didn't wanna be a jerk, but I totally agree. He starts off saying he sets everything to ZERO, then states that you have to set it a bit "off" because the car traveling down the road will be different than on the rack.

You know what I'VE always thought, even though it would be annoying to have to sit there...I'd like an alignment with my 240 pounds in the car. I'm SURE extra 1/2" in drops on one side of the car affects camber/caster/toe a LITTLE. And since my car is not "KIT"...I'm always in it when she's moving.

 

I have gone as far as to do that while corner balancing the car before a track day.

Sure as accelerating and decelerating the alignment changes due to the pitch and travel of the suspension but you want to set it up for the way the car is running flat.

 

Unloaded suspension/wheels in the air, you usually have some negative camber. Once suspension is loaded/wheels on the ground, it gains positive camber. The thing is that the unloaded-suspension camber reading is unimportant. This is different than lowering a car.