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CEL - Multiple Cylinder Misfire - Oil in Spark Plugs
I got a CEL with multiple cylinder misfires. Took a mechanic 3 days to diagnose because the misfiring would only occur when cold starting the car. He says that there's oil getting into the spark plugs and that the spark plugs are burning the oil, thus causing the misfire. But once the oil burns off, there's no more misfire. I can attest that the engine sputters a bit at the beginning of a cold start, but then the RPM smooths out after about 3-5 seconds. When I was taking the car back after the diagnostic, there was white smoke coming out of the exhaus when I started it up. He said that this happened because while diagnosing, they couldn't keep the car on for long because the misfire was occurring on a cold start, and thus oil had built up in the spark plugs; the smoke was all the oil being burnt up that had accumulated. The car doesn't produce smoke ever since I've had it because I use it daily.
He said the repair would cost anywhere from $1400-$1600, depending on whether there were other pieces inside that were worn out and needed to be replaced. The mechanic also said that the main part that needs to be replaced has to be sent to a machine shop so they can get a perfect fit to the engine.
If I remember correctly, the labor was about half the cost of the repair. I'll have to double check.
I'm going tomorrow to request that they write a relatively detailed cause of the problem, the minimum parts required and cost of the parts. Their labor rate is $75/hr. The diagnostic cost me $40.
With that said, what do you guys think? Is this something that can be DIY'd? Does the main part that needs to be replaced really have to be sent to a machine shop to get perfect fit to the engine?
I was reading some threads that had a similar problem and people recommended that they change the spark plug gasket and use a sealent.
My valve cover gaskets are also bad and I read that they should be changed as well since both gaskets are near the same area that you would have to go through to change the other.
I don't understand this.. Is your engine misfiring due to oil getting into the combustion chamber? Or oil getting behind the spark plug as in gasket failure?
If it is in fact gasket failure it would run you 16 bucks and you can DIY.
If it is oil in combustion chamber then it would not be alright after 5 seconds nor the smoke would stop coming out after minutes. Once the engine start to burn oil your down for a hefty repair bill and continuous smoke trail, oil burning and oil refill marathon.
What it baffles me is that your mechanic took 3 long days to diagnose that? It will take me literally minutes to tell you if you are burning oil by just undoing the spark plugs.
I don't understand this.. Is your engine misfiring due to oil getting into the combustion chamber? Or oil getting behind the spark plug as in gasket failure?
If it is in fact gasket failure it would run you 16 bucks and you can DIY.
I'll ask the mechanic to clear it up. It bothers me that he gave me two pieces of paper and didn't even write the problem, the cost of labor, the parts that need to be replaced nor the cost of the parts. All he said was that there's oil getting inaide the spark plugs and the spark plugs burn up the oil, thus causing the misfire. He even drew a simple engine on a piece of paper and showed me how the problem is playing out, but that's not as helpful as having documentation describing the problem and the parts that are at fault.
Yah because if it is In fact burning oil then you have failing piston rings and the part that he wants to send to machine is the actual bore hole depending on the damage.
Still, For that quote I would rather buy a whole new engine instead.. J32A2 time perhaps?
Yah because if it is In fact burning oil then you have failing piston rings and the part that he wants to send to machine is the actual bore hole depending on the damage.
Still, For that quote I would rather buy a whole new engine instead.. J32A2 time perhaps?
Well, the engine seems to be running fine. He says I could go 2-3 years without fixing the problem. in response to your previous post, the car doesn't exhibit any of the symptoms you mentioned regarding oil getting into the combustion chamber. The symptoms are exactly as I stated in the OP. The smoke coming out of the exhaust was only one time since I've owned the car (after picking it up when they finhed the diagnostic) and was due to the reasons I stated in the OP. What do you think?
... Are you mechanically inclined as to remove all the plugs? An oil fouled spark plug is pretty obvious to notice And will confirm if you have a failing piston ring or not.
Yeah, as Skirmich suggested......try doing the simple stuff first. Are there any CEL codes ?
Replace the spark plugs with NGK's and replace any gaskets that are apparently leaking.
If ya don't feel comfortable with DIY, have a local independent shop do the work for ya. Purchase your own parts to save a few bucks on the bill. Ya may also want to consider pressure checking the motor's cylinders.
... Are you mechanically inclined as to remove all the plugs? An oil fouled spark plug is pretty obvious to notice And will confirm if you have a failing piston ring or not.
I'll check the spark plugs today and take photos. I'm guessing you want me to remove them from the coil as well to be able to see everything. Will get back to you.
Yeah, as Skirmich suggested......try doing the simple stuff first. Are there any CEL codes ?
Replace the spark plugs with NGK's and replace any gaskets that are apparently leaking.
If ya don't feel comfortable with DIY, have a local independent shop do the work for ya. Purchase your own parts to save a few bucks on the bill. Ya may also want to consider pressure checking the motor's cylinders.
First time was 5 of 6 cylinders misfiring. After CEL reset, it was cylinders 1-3. The CEL were p030x.
at this point in the game; i would swap in a used J32.
300-400 for the engine.
labor is like 400 - 600
worst case scenario 1400
BUTT, new engine and wont give you problems
While I'm sure those prices may vary due to location (I'm in Miami, FL fwiw), sounds like it would be a lot cheaper to go that route if indeed my engine is f'd.
When you say used, do you mean rebuilt? I wouldn't want just any ised engine, I'd rather have it rebuilt so I know that all the proper work has been done to it.
you have to remove the coil to reach the spark plug
careful with the coils- treat them like Fine China- grandmas good plates~
with the quality of workers in mass rebuild shops, and the potential for failure from company policy of using any part still barely within spec,,
I would feel safer with a plain ol used engine from junkyard/auto recycler, and throw a timing belt and water pump kit on it. Plenty of good engines from rear crash cars
prices vary- heard 750 engine and 750 labor as about the highest
Look in craiglist and the penny saver for small shops
a good plug will have a tannish to light grey color on the center part
If its dropping oil thru dried up valve guide seals (never seen that happen on a TL)
that would leave a wet black look of oil that stuck on, but the oil would burn off the pistons shortly after startup
Some seafoam thru gas and intake vac port will clean anything in there
or a buildup of black crud on plug can indicate worn oil control ring on piston
yahoo search for spark plug diagnosis for many pics online
Do you know if this car was overheated in the past- maybe repeated redline temp?
Did the tech run a compression test? that would have involved removing spark plugs, so they got inspected during the process No report given- just a bill?
back to only a prob on cold start- I am inclined to believe its valve guide seals
Try a can of seafoam in half tank of gas- even the untrained can add to gas !!
do that twice to remove carbon buildup on valve backs and stems in case that's causing an issue
Have the valves been adjusted? how many miles on car?
any idea what the tech ckd?
following my theory- overheat baked the guide rubber seals and tech is assuming 1 or both cylinder heads are warped- requiring a machine shop to cut the surface flat again
That's normal with any engine rebuild, the valves get whatever repairs needed and surface is ground flat, the amount of metal height removed must be accounted for as it raises compression above our already high numbers, sometime a thicker head gasket may be needed or valve shims etc to make it still work!
That's why if the head is suspect its better to replace with already reconditioned one
at
Once you reach that point financially- you are looking at swapping motors in totality for less money, heads are not cheap!
Check out the PCV and that the oil is not over filled, other than that if you're going to replace the engine I highly recommend the J32A2 since its basically plug and play and the power advantage.
I got lucky and found mine at $400, installed it myself saved me for some beer.
you have to remove the coil to reach the spark plug
careful with the coils- treat them like Fine China- grandmas good plates~
with the quality of workers in mass rebuild shops, and the potential for failure from company policy of using any part still barely within spec,,
I would feel safer with a plain ol used engine from junkyard/auto recycler, and throw a timing belt and water pump kit on it. Plenty of good engines from rear crash cars
prices vary- heard 750 engine and 750 labor as about the highest
Look in craiglist and the penny saver for small shops
Thanks.
I've already looked at a vid and read a thread so I have an idea of what to expect.
If this isn't a relatively inexpensive DIY, I'd rather just sell the car.
I just can't see myself spending more money on this car if I can't DIY it. I bought an Acura thinking it was had the same quality build as a those reliable Hondas and I would only need to do preventative maintenance on it. I'm okay with changing the mounts and some other stuff. I believe that there wasn't even a 105k service done on the vehicle as it doesn't state in the service records on Carfax, so I would also have to end up doing that on my own. I was quoted $345 for the timing belt labor which includes the water pump, but I'd like to have all other belts replaced and I'm sure that's gonna cost more.
If I can't DIY this problem, I'm definitely considering selling it. My heart loves the car, but my brain's telling me it's not gonna be worth it. And with the crappy transmission's, who knows how much I would have to eventually spend.
Check out the PCV and that the oil is not over filled, other than that if you're going to replace the engine I highly recommend the J32A2 since its basically plug and play and the power advantage.
I got lucky and found mine at $400, installed it myself saved me for some beer.
Where'd you find yours? (I.e., junkyard, rebuilt, Craigslist, etc.)
Check out the PCV and that the oil is not over filled, other than that if you're going to replace the engine I highly recommend the J32A2 since its basically plug and play and the power advantage.
I got lucky and found mine at $400, installed it myself saved me for some beer.
The oil was fine when I checked yesterday, I'll have a look at the PCV. The previous owner bought the PCV valve along with the Thermostat which I'm guessing he never installed (or why else would he have given it to me).
I UL'd some pics. PCV valve definitely looks new, the thermostat has some kind crud on the rubber part but looks new otherwise.
Do you know if this car was overheated in the past- maybe repeated redline temp?
Did the tech run a compression test? that would have involved removing spark plugs, so they got inspected during the process No report given- just a bill?
back to only a prob on cold start- I am inclined to believe its valve guide seals
Try a can of seafoam in half tank of gas- even the untrained can add to gas !!
do that twice to remove carbon buildup on valve backs and stems in case that's causing an issue
Have the valves been adjusted? how many miles on car?
any idea what the tech ckd?
The car has gotten hot on me (3/4ths of the temp gauge). I believe there's a small engine coolant leak because adding water fixes it for about two weeks.
No documented report was given, just an oral report that was dumbed down for me. I have to go on Monday to request a more detailed diagnostic report, how they reached their conclusion including tests that they ran, and what are the parts that need to be replaced along with any other procedure (I.e., send to a machine shop).
I'm not sure what the tech checked, but he did note that the spark plugs were changed recently.
Not sure about the valves being adjusted.
I'm going to call up the Acura dealer tomorrow and request the service records. I'm hoping that will tell me what was done so I know what needs to be done.
Pics don't work !!!
Before ya jump to conclusions, make sure that the cooling system is working properly. Have it pressure checked for leaks. Same with motor cylinders, have the compression and leakdown tests performed. Once everything has been checked out, you'll know the true condition of your present motor.
In the meantime, misfire codes can be caused by many different things. Read up on the "DIY"s sticky for common problems and fixes. IMO, ya really need to get another reputable mechanic's opinion to diagnose your present issues. Pull a plug or two and check the condition, if they're NGK's. Post a pic !
Pics don't work !!!
Before ya jump to conclusions, make sure that the cooling system is working properly. Have it pressure checked for leaks. Same with motor cylinders, have the compression and leakdown tests performed. Once everything has been checked out, you'll know the true condition of your present motor.
In the meantime, misfire codes can be caused by many different things. Read up on the "DIY"s sticky for common problems and fixes. IMO, ya really need to get another reputable mechanic's opinion to diagnose your present issues. Pull a plug or two and check the condition, if they're NGK's. Post a pic !
The 2nd Gen CL = TL .....same 3.2 V-6 motor, no problem.
Some people take out all spark plugs, bur the guy in this vid only took out one plug (and presumably only unplugged one at a time). Is this okay?
Also, from what I understand, a compression test checks for leaks of air and a leakdown test checks for where the leak is coming from. If that's correct, is a leakdown test required if the compression is okay?
So if the PSI for each cylinder is within spec (within 28 psi of 135 psi according to shop manual), is a leakdown test necessary? I can do the compression test myself, but I don't have an air compressor available in order to do the leakdown test. I'd like to know this so I don't waste money on a leakdown test if everything checks out okay with the compression test?
3. What tests did they run to reach their conclusion?
Remove and Install spark plugs to look inside cylinders.
4. What do they believe is the problem?
Valve Guide or Seals
5. Did they run a compression test?
No.
6. Did they run a leakdown test?
No.
7. What are the parts that need to be replaced?
Head Gasket set, spark plugs, oil & filter, coolant, plus any other parts that are worn out that they find along the way to ensure proper install.
8. What parts need to be sent to the machine shop?
Head ($250)
9. What is the cost of labor? $600-$750 (not including machine shop).
Notes:
- says they would run the compression test and leakdown test before beginning to work on the vehicle.
- he believes the oil leak is coming from the top.
- he says to be careful with buying a used engine because it's just like buying a used car (no guarantee it won't fail). Says he has a friend who bought a used engine and it failed on him 6 months afterwards)
- he believes the best thing to do is sell the car, make the repair, or swap the engine (in that order).
just like I said eh~ that thing has been cooked several times- hence the thermostat given to you,,dry valve guide seals are letting oil past them-
the old chevy truck did the same thing- had to shoot seafoam in carb after startup to be sure it was clean inside to run!
carfax only knows what dealers and body shops, some oil change places report to them
Private shops or diyrs don't report, so services may be unknown to them
Looking at the water pump and the bolts to timing covers will give a better clue if anyone has been there before
the sparkplugs replaced recently- right before you got it= are they the correct ngk plugs? anything else (except denso) makes it run funny = misfire codes
misfire codes are usually a bad coil
no compression test or other verification of head gaskets was done? total bs
the leakdown test is always done after bad dry compression results and wet test of compression are done- leakdown figures out if its valves (head) or ring problem (goodbye motor)
its sounding more and more like someone who knew there were big problems after severe overheats offed the car on you- and you not knowing about azine then, or taken it to a shop for a pre buy look-see,, got the short end of the stick
for a kid with time and buddies= to swap the engine is a weekend project
just like I said eh~ that thing has been cooked several times- hence the thermostat given to you,,dry valve guide seals are letting oil past them-
the old chevy truck did the same thing- had to shoot seafoam in carb after startup to be sure it was clean inside to run!
I'm not sure I understand the part about the thermostat being given to me, unless you mean he was trying to diagnose the overheating problem.
Also, you mentioned Seafoam. Was that a temp fix or a permanent solution?
Originally Posted by 01tl4tl
carfax only knows what dealers and body shops, some oil change places report to them
Private shops or diyrs don't report, so services may be unknown to them
Looking at the water pump and the bolts to timing covers will give a better clue if anyone has been there before
Do I have to disassemble the Timing Belt Cover to check for signs that the bolts have been taken off (indicating that perhaps the timing belt was replaced)?
Either way, I'll consider an engine swap at this point in time before I even keep the engine, assuming the mechanic's assessment is true.
Originally Posted by 01tl4tl
the sparkplugs replaced recently- right before you got it= are they the correct ngk plugs? anything else (except denso) makes it run funny = misfire codes
misfire codes are usually a bad coil
I'll check up on the spark plugs after I run the test for the engine coolant leak. Car heated up to 3/4ths today again and I put water in the radiator and reservoir like two days ago.
I also don't wanna spend any more money towards an engine that I just might end up swapping out.
Originally Posted by 01tl4tl
no compression test or other verification of head gaskets was done? total bs
He charged me $40 for the diagnostics (it's usually $50). I can't complain about not receiving a Compression Test and Leakdown test. But if you're saying the Compression Test is absolutely necessary to draw a conclusion that it is the Valve Guides or Seals and thus quote me for a costly repair, I can see why you're calling total BS.
Originally Posted by 01tl4tl
the leakdown test is always done after bad dry compression results and wet test of compression are done- leakdown figures out if its valves (head) or ring problem (goodbye motor)
Thanks, will remember that. Compression Test = is there a problem, Leakdown Test = where is the problem.
Originally Posted by 01tl4tl
its sounding more and more like someone who knew there were big problems after severe overheats offed the car on you- and you not knowing about azine then, or taken it to a shop for a pre buy look-see,, got the short end of the stick
for a kid with time and buddies= to swap the engine is a weekend project
I'm kinda embarrassed to tell the story, but f it. When I went to go check the car out, I called up a mechanic that said he'd do a used car inspection. He went to check it out. He felt a slight misfire when starting the engine up, but never told me about it. He asked the owner if the check engine light had been on recently, owner said no (what else would he say). Anyway, he told me what needed to be repaired/replaced (front + back mounts, valve cover gasket, and timing belt). The owner dropped his price by a good amount to help pay for the repairs, saying he got a new car and this car was just sitting in his driveway and needed to go. He even agreed to put it as a gift so I would save on taxes. He drove the car to my house. I get insurance the next day, transfer the title and get the tag, then a while later the CEL goes off. This was about a month and a half ago.
Lesson learned: take it to a Honda/Acura dealer and have them do a used car inspection. At least they'll do a compression test and do everything properly.
pttt no they wont- compression test on a car younger than 20 years without a reported problem is not done, it takes time! they look for the obvious crash repairs or not repaired
front and rear motor mounts busted = massive vacuum leak as those are both vac boosted units that stiffen on acceleration,,to have both of them bad means a long long time has passed since the front has failed, the pass side mount goes from extra load then the rear
look at the external covers to timing belt- those bolts will show tool marks if removed for the job, side motor mount will also have tool marks as it gets removed
Seafoam cleans fuel system and is to make it run better- after vac leaks fixed!
Its an ongoing preventative maintenance to remove carbon buildup from ethanol added gasoline, can also blast pistons and intake valves clean in seconds if desired
cleans o2 sensors- cat convertor and more
yes I mean the owner was trying to fix the overheat and purchased a thermostat- why else would he give it to you! he tried some fixes until a mechanic or buddy said- its toast get a new car, where even the dealer apparently didn't want to take this car as trade!
then the TL sat in the corner for who knows how long....
now looking at this as: needs engine!, with new timing belt etc of course- why not do it while its easy to reach! plus some $300-400 in motor mounts (no kidding look up price!) what else did it need- shocks- brakes -brake fluid been changed so it doesn't rot the calipers? ps fluid look good, or not protecting the steering rack?
safe to say this is a good project car but the current owner may not be the right owner~
Just thought I'd update this thread before declaring it solved.
There was no oil in the spark plugs after all.
However, it appears two ignition coils were bad and a few of the spark plugs weren't gapped properly (my cousin suspects it was due to poor installation).
Solution: we replaced all coils (costly, yup) and put new spark plugs in. Since the labor was free, my cousin pretty much forced me to buy new coils and plugs.
The rust on threads indicates these were probably original factory installed plugs = never replaced
IF the `arm` part is level- 90 degrees, it WAS correct when the plugs had life left on them
You DO NOT re-gap these plugs
New box with plug: if the tip is in its cardboard cover- the round one inside box, its set
If its not level coming out of the box= there is that 1 in 40 million that had a problem!
always inspect all parts before installation~
following my theory- overheat baked the guide rubber seals and assuming 1 or both cylinder heads are warped- requiring a machine shop to cut the surface flat again
That's normal with any engine rebuild, the valves get whatever repairs needed and surface is ground flat, the amount of metal height removed must be accounted for as it raises compression above our already high numbers, sometime a thicker head gasket may be needed or valve shims etc to make it still work! That's why if the head is suspect its better to replace with already reconditioned one
Once you reach that point financially- you are looking at swapping motors in totality for less money, heads are not cheap!
If indeed the head gasket is blown, chances are the mating surfaces will require machine work.....very expensive !!! And furthermore, if oil and coolant leaked into each other, who knows what other kind of problems will come up down the road.
on other thread OP has removed 1 head so far and found definite blown head gasket
No measurement of flatness on either surface has been done, semi skilled- but not TL guru- relative helping at home when able from the sounds of it
2nd side not yet removed
Im guessing based on the overall story of car was bought with overheating prob- had new rad and thermostat= old owner tried and tried till mechanics said- its not going to be cheap!!
so the car was offed on an unsuspecting person- who luckily found azine!!
OP has to wait on cousin to do the work (probably free help at home situation)
they should have the other head off by now and be cking it out
Im betting its bad news everywhere, that thing was repeatedly overheated while an elderly gentleman and a few shops tried to work the problem out-
but
by the time it was figured out- the damage was done
It arrived at its new home with bhg-loss of coolant and rusty res bottle
Then it was driven and driven and driven with temp redlines, probably coolant in oil = fries the bearings and can cause piston rings to score their cylinder walls- totallllly uncool!
The rust on threads indicates these were probably original factory installed plugs = never replaced
IF the `arm` part is level- 90 degrees, it WAS correct when the plugs had life left on them
You DO NOT re-gap these plugs
New box with plug: if the tip is in its cardboard cover- the round one inside box, its set
If its not level coming out of the box= there is that 1 in 40 million that had a problem!
always inspect all parts before installation~
They look like Ix plugs to me. If so, they're not the original plugs.
Trash I know you like to bust me just for your jollies, back at ya!
and didn't 99s have irid? then 00 went plat, then 04 back to irid?
regardless of if the OP had original plugs= with the rust on the threads its a sure sign its been several years operation, maybe half the cars life since replaced
by now I cant tell how many miles on what thread what car who posted when- none of it matters to me! Im just here to share what I know or can speculate with a reasonable amount of truth in the story
^^^Well, I don't ALWAYS post just to annoy you. And, no the 99s didn't come with iridium. The first acuras to have iridium were the 02 rsx, 03 cls-6mt, and the 03 mdx. The tls had to wait until 04. It seems odd to me that the nsx or the rl wouldn't have been first, being the top of the line models. I think the crap on the threads is blow-by from insufficient torque.
09-13-2014, 08:22 PM
Head gasket & warped surfaces.....
If indeed the head gasket is blown, chances are the mating surfaces will require machine work.....very expensive !!! And furthermore, if oil and coolant leaked into each other, who knows what other kind of problems will come up down the road. 
Any updates ???
Rebuilding current motor or replacing it ???
