I've got two brake issues with my 2003 TL-S with 160k miles and could use some advice before I start throwing money at it.

1. Weak brake performance. A hard stop is fine, but a panic stop isn't. Didn't realize until I tried a panic stop to miss a squirrel that it can't be done. Pedal hits the bottom of travel and is unable to engage antilock on dry pavement. Rotors are pretty new all around (from Napa), as are pads (Napa again, the performance pads). Caliper pins are clean and lubed. All calipers seem to be engaging - there is no pull right or left. Feels like there is simply either not enough friction or not enough hydraulic pressure. No sign of leaks anywhere. I replaced the front pads once to see if that was it and no change. No obvious sign of air in the system, bled them again and no sign of air or improvement.

Where to start?? Could really use some advice on this one - I suspect the brake performance gradually declined and I didn't realize it until I tried to save a squirrel. Have a teen that will start driving soon and definitely need to get this fixed.

2. My ABS pump is ticking most all the time now. This started recently, no obvious impact on brake performance yet. No trouble codes yet. I assume this ticking indicates a problem - would it be the pump itself? Seems to be a separate modulator component?

All advice appreciated!

 

no obvious sighs of air?
there were bubbles and you cleared them out- or there were not!
CRITICAL INFO**** the correct and only way to bleed the TL system is LF = driver front,, then clockwise around the car
LF RF RR LR, because of abs plumbing Using DOT 4, or 3 fluid

Pump the pedal quickly 2 times- does it get firmer on 2nd pump? air in system
Holding pedal with pressure, does it go down more than just a little = sink to floor? = master cylinder failure

To bleed the ABS system - which MUST be done after lines have been fully opened- caliper replaced or similar
find some wet road or gravel, at 45mph stand on the brake pedal and ABS should shudder the pedal under your feet- all the way to full stop
Now accelerate to 45mph and stand on the pedal to full stop- if the pedal had a firmer feel 2nd time- there was air in the abs and now is moved to the regular system to be bled out- air most often found in LF after this test but rebleed all in correct order to be sure

It should take about 1.5 QTS to fully flush the TL system. that's a lot at each caliper to be sure the line and all the fluid in caliper has been pushed thru and out

NOTE If you use the 2 man method- 1 pumps pedal and holds- that person must NOT push pedal fully to floor- that's past its normal range and will damage the master cyl Oring inside, on its shaft
Noob helpers can use a small piece of 1 inch thick wood under brake arm to prevent 100 dollar tragedy

 

did you properly bed the new pads and rotors in - to each other?

performance pads need a few special procedures, and time to wear into the rotor face- transfer some pad material to the face of rotor for better grip

 

a thought- many makers of rear pads for us are still using the wrong backing plate for the pad!!
look under rear of your car
if the rotor is shiny on half its width and rusty on the other half = pad problem
the wrong pads have a 3rd- middle- raised tab
like the ones on the end of pad backing that hold the low pad noise maker on.
That middle tab hits the rotor first and cocks pads sideways during operation
really messes with braking- shaking and more

 

Good info, thanks. I hadn't heard of the LF and clockwise thing before. I'm sure I didn't do that. Also hadn't heard not to push it to the floor when 2-man bleeding. I'm confident I've done that. What is the symptom of a damaged master cylinder o-ring? I'm not losing any fluid and pedal doesn't sink.

To answer your questions: No there is no sign of air when bleeding. Multiple brake pedal pumps doesn't firm it up and it is solid when held under constant pressure (doesn't sink to the floor).

I haven't tried the antilock test (full stop engaged antilocks on gravel then repeat). I'll try that one too.

I did follow a bedding-in procedure on the pads. They've got plenty of miles on them now.
Rear rotors look "normal" and when inspecting pads the wear looks normal too.

Thanks for the info and advice - I'm smarter already!

 

Tried some additional bleeding last night after engaging the ABS (although I wasn't able to get a lot of ABS engagement). It's making sense to me that air is likely the issue so I'm going to try a few rounds of the correct procedure (now that I know it, thank you 01TL4TL) with some better ABS engagement. Interesting that the correct procedure for this car is the opposite of what I had been taught about bleeding in general, which was to start with the longest line and work to the shortest.

I also tracked down my ticking noise, which turned out *not* to be the ABS at all, but is actually the EVAP purge control solenoid. A much easier/cheaper fix.

 

no need to do anything about the purge valve- they eventually make noise- its not a critical running problem

on the TL brakes:
old school was farthest first- which is fine **** except the modern abs equipped cars and all that involves
= TL order LF RF RR LR

If you pump the pedal and it doesn't get better- usually air in system
With engine running - in Park- push brakes once and hold heavily, a slight drop is ok
More than slight- towards the floor- would allow car to move with brakes engaged if in gear = master cyl oring
usually get a red master warning light of BRAKES in that case

If you have repeatedly pushed pedal all the way to the floor- good change that's your problem- now
May have started with another but it includes master cyl now
It wont leak fluid out- its bypassing its seal internally so pressure doesn't build

First get all the fluid order done correctly, then test drive normal and with ABS stops then rebleed again

all calipers gave up cruddy ugly-- then good fluid after a few/several sets of pump hold release??
2 man method needs 4-5 pumps and hold- when bleeder is opened the pedal is pushed with mild pressure towards BUT NOT reaching the floor
Close bleeder
repeat several times per caliper

If noob helper and/or new to the TL at the bleeder- some air may have gotten back in, or been pushed around when you were not using correct bleed order
It takes 1.5 qts to do a full super good job on the TL brake fluid flush/bleed

Are you anywhere near that- on the once around the car bleed?
Use a clear drain hose to watch for bubbles !

 

get a self bleeder kit and use that and bleed EACH caliper in order until you get clear air free fluid out

It is a hose with a 1way valve on the end so air does not go up into the caliper when you let your foot off of the brake if you are too cheap to buy that you can use a plastic bottle and a hose. put about an inch of new fluid in the bottom and then put enough hose in the bottle to make sure that the open end is completely covered by fluid.

 

I prefer the vacuum gauge/suction pump method with a catch bottle in-line
Harbor freight has them for 25$...and it still works as vac gauge to find those kind of leaks

That way you can watch exactly what's coming out of the caliper, into a 4 ounce plastic bottle, empty it and repeat 4 or more times
that's plenty to get the job done and done right- at that point if still getting air bubbles = a leak is up-line

No involvement of the pedal, no worries about helper tightening bleeder or not doing the pump and hold right,,its just easier to do things yourself!

the car in this thread may already have master cyl seal issue- need to get the air out and retest
The vac/suction method will bypass the master cyl/pedal use- help isolate any remaining problem,
then do the 2 abs stops- if pedal better/firmer on 2nd stop it still had air in abs- rebleed and this time...unless it master cyl.