ABS brake bleeding
07-04-2010, 10:46 PM
#1
ABS brake bleeding
Through my searches, I've come up with conflicting results in reference to bleeding ABS brakes on the TL.
I was doing a Legend/SS lines/Flush all at the same time. I thought the NEW speed bleeders were defective, but I had the wrong ones in. The wrong ones leaked a lot more than I thought overnight, and my BMC ended up seemingly dry/drained. I filled it back up, and proceeded to bleed in the correct order (LF-RF-RR-LR), doing 4 slow pumps on each corner, and even more on the LR (saw fizzing and bubbles.
The car will stop but the pedal is almost down to the floorboard. Coming to a stop + pumping the brakes and of course the pedal gets stiffer.
I know this means air is still in the system, but everything seemed to have went according to plan. Are you supposed to bleed ABS brakes different than the normal pedal pump and bleeder? And how do you know for sure that all the air is out of the system?
I was doing a Legend/SS lines/Flush all at the same time. I thought the NEW speed bleeders were defective, but I had the wrong ones in. The wrong ones leaked a lot more than I thought overnight, and my BMC ended up seemingly dry/drained. I filled it back up, and proceeded to bleed in the correct order (LF-RF-RR-LR), doing 4 slow pumps on each corner, and even more on the LR (saw fizzing and bubbles.
The car will stop but the pedal is almost down to the floorboard. Coming to a stop + pumping the brakes and of course the pedal gets stiffer.
I know this means air is still in the system, but everything seemed to have went according to plan. Are you supposed to bleed ABS brakes different than the normal pedal pump and bleeder? And how do you know for sure that all the air is out of the system?
07-05-2010, 03:03 AM
#2
how are you bleeding- 4 slow pumps? cant be enough to fill the new lines and the caliper
Do you prefill the new calipers or put them in dry?
Not familiar with your speed bleeders, but you need to keep going until there are NO air bubbles fizzles or foam of any type coming out
One wheel at a time
should take nearly 1 qt of fluid to bleed/flush normally
add new calipers and lines.. means a lot of fluid needs to come out from each corner!
If the pedal gets stiffer with pumping, there is still air in the system!
Why are you driving with air in the brakes!!!
Once you get that bled out- you MUST do 2 ABS active stops- that means both feet buried on the brake on bad traction road- gravel -wet or similar- need the abs pump working to dislodge trapped air in its controller- seperate from the regular air found in bleeding
If the 2nd stop had better firmer pedal there was trapped air- now moved to caliper
rebleed in TL order and all will be well
Do you prefill the new calipers or put them in dry?
Not familiar with your speed bleeders, but you need to keep going until there are NO air bubbles fizzles or foam of any type coming out
One wheel at a time
should take nearly 1 qt of fluid to bleed/flush normally
add new calipers and lines.. means a lot of fluid needs to come out from each corner!
If the pedal gets stiffer with pumping, there is still air in the system!
Why are you driving with air in the brakes!!!
Once you get that bled out- you MUST do 2 ABS active stops- that means both feet buried on the brake on bad traction road- gravel -wet or similar- need the abs pump working to dislodge trapped air in its controller- seperate from the regular air found in bleeding
If the 2nd stop had better firmer pedal there was trapped air- now moved to caliper
rebleed in TL order and all will be well
Last edited by 01tl4tl; 07-05-2010 at 03:07 AM.
07-05-2010, 03:10 AM
#3
when the master cyl goes dry you definetly have air in the lines- thats a lot of flud needed to push the air thru,,,up to 2 qts total,,
some air gets mixed in during the process and must be flushed out
when fluid is clean clear and free of any bubbles you are done
do you have a friend to help do a manual bleed method?
some air gets mixed in during the process and must be flushed out
when fluid is clean clear and free of any bubbles you are done
do you have a friend to help do a manual bleed method?
07-05-2010, 11:30 AM
#4
how are you bleeding- 4 slow pumps? cant be enough to fill the new lines and the caliper
Do you prefill the new calipers or put them in dry?
Not familiar with your speed bleeders, but you need to keep going until there are NO air bubbles fizzles or foam of any type coming out
One wheel at a time
should take nearly 1 qt of fluid to bleed/flush normally
add new calipers and lines.. means a lot of fluid needs to come out from each corner!
If the pedal gets stiffer with pumping, there is still air in the system!
Why are you driving with air in the brakes!!!
Once you get that bled out- you MUST do 2 ABS active stops- that means both feet buried on the brake on bad traction road- gravel -wet or similar- need the abs pump working to dislodge trapped air in its controller- seperate from the regular air found in bleeding
If the 2nd stop had better firmer pedal there was trapped air- now moved to caliper
rebleed in TL order and all will be well
Do you prefill the new calipers or put them in dry?
Not familiar with your speed bleeders, but you need to keep going until there are NO air bubbles fizzles or foam of any type coming out
One wheel at a time
should take nearly 1 qt of fluid to bleed/flush normally
add new calipers and lines.. means a lot of fluid needs to come out from each corner!
If the pedal gets stiffer with pumping, there is still air in the system!
Why are you driving with air in the brakes!!!
Once you get that bled out- you MUST do 2 ABS active stops- that means both feet buried on the brake on bad traction road- gravel -wet or similar- need the abs pump working to dislodge trapped air in its controller- seperate from the regular air found in bleeding
If the 2nd stop had better firmer pedal there was trapped air- now moved to caliper
rebleed in TL order and all will be well
when the master cyl goes dry you definetly have air in the lines- thats a lot of flud needed to push the air thru,,,up to 2 qts total,,
some air gets mixed in during the process and must be flushed out
when fluid is clean clear and free of any bubbles you are done
do you have a friend to help do a manual bleed method?
some air gets mixed in during the process and must be flushed out
when fluid is clean clear and free of any bubbles you are done
do you have a friend to help do a manual bleed method?
I read about the 2 45mph ABS stops in my searches and tried to do those, but couldn't do 2 back to back without stopping in between. I'll replan them. I don't have any gravel around and the place I can wet won't allow me to get up to 45mph.
I'll go buy another quart of fluid, do the 45mph tests again, and rebleed them. I don't have any help but I've had great success with speed bleeders
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firepac493 (01-15-2022)
07-05-2010, 11:52 AM
#6
its no big deal- just the plumbing makes the order strange
do NOT do the 45 mph test yet-that only after the system is operating
you still have air in the regular system that must be cleared first
rebleed the system- LF = driver front, then clockwise around the car LF RF RR LR
the legend calipers are prone to hiding an air pocket- thats one reason to prefill them--guessing you didnt do that?
get a friend to help- put 2x4 wood block under brake pedal so pedal only goes 3/4 way to floor
Those speed bleeders may be your problem- shouldnt be leaking, they are one way valves, open slightly to allow pressure/fluid out- then it seals itself as pedal is released and pressure goes away-so it doesnt suck air back into the system
do NOT do the 45 mph test yet-that only after the system is operating
you still have air in the regular system that must be cleared first
rebleed the system- LF = driver front, then clockwise around the car LF RF RR LR
the legend calipers are prone to hiding an air pocket- thats one reason to prefill them--guessing you didnt do that?
get a friend to help- put 2x4 wood block under brake pedal so pedal only goes 3/4 way to floor
Those speed bleeders may be your problem- shouldnt be leaking, they are one way valves, open slightly to allow pressure/fluid out- then it seals itself as pedal is released and pressure goes away-so it doesnt suck air back into the system
07-05-2010, 11:59 AM
#7
the abs part is seperate from the regular brake operation--its a computer and a pump that rapidly applies and release a caliper when excess or low wheel speed is detected at one corner of the car..that pump is what gets air trapped inside and cant get out unless pump is operating
for any normal work,, its just brakes- only the bleed order is different than non abs car
pour some water on a street where you can do 2, 45 mph stops - stop first time - accellerate to 45 and stop again
put water on 1 wheels side of the car- even patches of water will force the wheel speed to change under braking and get the abs going
bring a few gallons in jugs to a quiet road
Have to do the stops right in a row so the line pressure doesnt change
you will know when ABS is active- the brake pedal pulsates under your foot- while you apply max brake force
(make sure that 2x4 block under pedal is removed after bleeding is done~)
for any normal work,, its just brakes- only the bleed order is different than non abs car
pour some water on a street where you can do 2, 45 mph stops - stop first time - accellerate to 45 and stop again
put water on 1 wheels side of the car- even patches of water will force the wheel speed to change under braking and get the abs going
bring a few gallons in jugs to a quiet road
Have to do the stops right in a row so the line pressure doesnt change
you will know when ABS is active- the brake pedal pulsates under your foot- while you apply max brake force
(make sure that 2x4 block under pedal is removed after bleeding is done~)
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07-05-2010, 12:02 PM
#8
from 45 a full effort stop doesnt take much room to do
The car will amaze you when given the chance~
those with great tires,shocks, pads and rotors already know it: will give stop on a dime ,,,and give you 8 cents change
The car will amaze you when given the chance~
those with great tires,shocks, pads and rotors already know it: will give stop on a dime ,,,and give you 8 cents change
07-06-2010, 12:43 PM
#9
eh...It's better now, but I don't know how the pedal stiffness should feel. I bled each corner to the brink of the BMC being to the Low level and did the ABS stops. Feels like the pedal isn't as stiff, but the car stops just fine...I don't know.
I know on my nissan I had to change the BMC (I know you don't have to with this swap though) to correct the brake bias and pedal feel.
Ugh, I need to buy one of those Motive $50 pumps. Pedal just doesn't feel as stiff as it did stock, before I did all this. Guess air is still in the system. As of now, I see no benefit to doing this swap.
I know on my nissan I had to change the BMC (I know you don't have to with this swap though) to correct the brake bias and pedal feel.
Ugh, I need to buy one of those Motive $50 pumps. Pedal just doesn't feel as stiff as it did stock, before I did all this. Guess air is still in the system. As of now, I see no benefit to doing this swap.
07-06-2010, 02:20 PM
#10
Drifting
Go get a hand vacuum brake bleeder. HF, Sears, etc. has them. Used it when I replaced the stk. calipers w/ Legend calipers (did not repl. brake lines though), EBC rotors/pads & it worked great. Solid pedal, good feel. Easy to use too.
07-06-2010, 04:21 PM
#11
And I don't know wtf happened, but the pedal is a lot stiffer now after work. It sat in a parking garage for 8 hours. Maybe I was expecting more from this setup and my expectations were too high. haha
I think the problem might be pads too. I'm using Rotora front pads and stock rears that need to be changed pretty soon. I'll get a F+R kit...just gotta research for a nice street pad without noise.
07-06-2010, 06:15 PM
#12
go back and do each wheel again
nearly empty master cyl refill and do enough to nearly empty it again
On my normal flush out- without new calipers etc,,one res worth per wheel minimum
A qt or more to do the system
the ABS test stomps- if the 2nd stop had a firmer feel to the pedal- there was hidden air in ABS= its moved out now, rebleed brakes
under normal braking if you pump the pedal twice quickly- does it get firmer on 2nd pump? try it sitting and moving slowly--gets better with pump(s) ??
you have air in the system= bleed brakes
take those speed bleeders out, put reg nipples back in and use a vac pump or helper, or just take it to a brake shop- let them do it right and its done
Pedal should have normal feel with the new lines- you will notice when the brakes are hot that the pedal feel stays the same..
they used to get weak pedal when hot as the rubber lines expanded easily--during bleeding you can see the rubber lines swelling- imagine under real pressure and heat
the calipers and lines need good brakes under them~
rebleed and get the new pads and rotors- bed them in per the makers instructions- often takes 500 miles and a few hardcore beddings with performance brake parts
before they are 100 percent
then you will brag of the improved feel and reduced stopping distance you have!!
nearly empty master cyl refill and do enough to nearly empty it again
On my normal flush out- without new calipers etc,,one res worth per wheel minimum
A qt or more to do the system
the ABS test stomps- if the 2nd stop had a firmer feel to the pedal- there was hidden air in ABS= its moved out now, rebleed brakes
under normal braking if you pump the pedal twice quickly- does it get firmer on 2nd pump? try it sitting and moving slowly--gets better with pump(s) ??
you have air in the system= bleed brakes
take those speed bleeders out, put reg nipples back in and use a vac pump or helper, or just take it to a brake shop- let them do it right and its done
Pedal should have normal feel with the new lines- you will notice when the brakes are hot that the pedal feel stays the same..
they used to get weak pedal when hot as the rubber lines expanded easily--during bleeding you can see the rubber lines swelling- imagine under real pressure and heat
the calipers and lines need good brakes under them~
rebleed and get the new pads and rotors- bed them in per the makers instructions- often takes 500 miles and a few hardcore beddings with performance brake parts
before they are 100 percent
then you will brag of the improved feel and reduced stopping distance you have!!
07-06-2010, 06:26 PM
#13
racingbrake.com has `ET` (Easy to choose Tough to abuse) series 300 for average driver, wife/mom drives the car and needs that 70-to 10mph abilty, and low dusting with low noise
a couple coats of synthetic car wax on the rims cuts way down on dust left from any pad
ET 500 is a more aggressive bite, favored by wannabe racers who late brake into the corner or have backroads and mountain fun,, more than normal person does
mrheeltoe is their vendor on here- ck sponsored sales thread, and his sig has a discount code in it
I recently used up the front set of et300s on my 01, dropped in a set of low miles hawk HPS for now,,what a differance, Dont have the sure footed stopping feel of the RBs
and thick dust has coated my once shiny Enkei's
Where does she drive this thing!!!
RB pads work on any rotors, but work best on their own brand--like most maker matched parts-- they are designed for each other
a couple coats of synthetic car wax on the rims cuts way down on dust left from any pad
ET 500 is a more aggressive bite, favored by wannabe racers who late brake into the corner or have backroads and mountain fun,, more than normal person does
mrheeltoe is their vendor on here- ck sponsored sales thread, and his sig has a discount code in it
I recently used up the front set of et300s on my 01, dropped in a set of low miles hawk HPS for now,,what a differance, Dont have the sure footed stopping feel of the RBs
and thick dust has coated my once shiny Enkei's
Where does she drive this thing!!!
RB pads work on any rotors, but work best on their own brand--like most maker matched parts-- they are designed for each other
07-06-2010, 09:43 PM
#14
Drifting
You won't need any speed bleeders when using the vac. pump- make certain you get a good seal betw. the pump body and resv. bottle attached to it. Mine came with some grease to use to help seal it. Also be sure the hoses & adapters fit well (several sizes came w/ mine) & it won't pull any air back in through the bleed nipples.
07-07-2010, 02:20 PM
#15
Thanks a lot guys. Yes, it gets a little stiffer when moving slow with every pedal pump.
I think I'll grab some ET500s for the front + rear. Man, Im glad I saved the caliper bleeder screws. I won't be able to get the pads before the weekend, but I'll definitely re-bleed them either today or tomorrow and report back.
I think I'll grab some ET500s for the front + rear. Man, Im glad I saved the caliper bleeder screws. I won't be able to get the pads before the weekend, but I'll definitely re-bleed them either today or tomorrow and report back.
07-07-2010, 08:10 PM
#16
rebleed before further operation
If Each pump in a series of 2 or more quickly---gets stiffer, you still have a lot of air,
or those speed bleeders are not holding pressure- are letting air in,
or there is a prob somewhere else in the system
Ck the new lines at connections to caliper and new lines to car line-
for any fluid leak and give the connection a tug with the wrench to make sure its tight
Any ~funny history~ we should know that led to the new brakes???
If you are in northern NJ- thats RBs place, and has counter service
If Each pump in a series of 2 or more quickly---gets stiffer, you still have a lot of air,
or those speed bleeders are not holding pressure- are letting air in,
or there is a prob somewhere else in the system
Ck the new lines at connections to caliper and new lines to car line-
for any fluid leak and give the connection a tug with the wrench to make sure its tight
Any ~funny history~ we should know that led to the new brakes???
If you are in northern NJ- thats RBs place, and has counter service
07-13-2010, 07:06 AM
#17
rebleed before further operation
If Each pump in a series of 2 or more quickly---gets stiffer, you still have a lot of air,
or those speed bleeders are not holding pressure- are letting air in,
or there is a prob somewhere else in the system
Ck the new lines at connections to caliper and new lines to car line-
for any fluid leak and give the connection a tug with the wrench to make sure its tight
Any ~funny history~ we should know that led to the new brakes???
If you are in northern NJ- thats RBs place, and has counter service
If Each pump in a series of 2 or more quickly---gets stiffer, you still have a lot of air,
or those speed bleeders are not holding pressure- are letting air in,
or there is a prob somewhere else in the system
Ck the new lines at connections to caliper and new lines to car line-
for any fluid leak and give the connection a tug with the wrench to make sure its tight
Any ~funny history~ we should know that led to the new brakes???
If you are in northern NJ- thats RBs place, and has counter service
I took the speedbleeders out and rebled with a mityvac. ($30)
Pedal feels great! Just gotta order some ET500s and I'll be golden! Thanks for all your help.
07-13-2010, 12:44 PM
#18
you did the 2 ABS stops to be sure there is no trapped air in the controller??
--or when you need ABS it isnt there for you`
no need for 500s in the rear - they only do 30 percent of the brake force
I would use ET300s rear and 500s front for aggressive brakers
ET300 front if mom or wife or grandma operates or rides in the car- it still brakes like a normal car
--or when you need ABS it isnt there for you`
no need for 500s in the rear - they only do 30 percent of the brake force
I would use ET300s rear and 500s front for aggressive brakers
ET300 front if mom or wife or grandma operates or rides in the car- it still brakes like a normal car
07-13-2010, 02:22 PM
#19
you did the 2 ABS stops to be sure there is no trapped air in the controller??
--or when you need ABS it isnt there for you`
no need for 500s in the rear - they only do 30 percent of the brake force
I would use ET300s rear and 500s front for aggressive brakers
ET300 front if mom or wife or grandma operates or rides in the car- it still brakes like a normal car
--or when you need ABS it isnt there for you`
no need for 500s in the rear - they only do 30 percent of the brake force
I would use ET300s rear and 500s front for aggressive brakers
ET300 front if mom or wife or grandma operates or rides in the car- it still brakes like a normal car
I'm the only one who drives the car. My fiancé will drive it rarely, but not enough for me to get ET300 on the front! Thanks again!
07-13-2010, 06:11 PM
#20
bringin lead
personally, i'd do et500s in the front and whatever is cheapest in the "middle" price range category for the rears. put the extra $20 or $30 in the bank for the next mod. 
07-13-2010, 06:29 PM
#22
You have the wrong order, go reverse of what you just typed... RR-LR-RF-LF, especially if all your lines/calipers are almost dry. 4 pumps on an empty system is probably not enough to fill the lines. The best way is to get a pressure bleeder and open up all the bleeder valves till you've flushed all the bubbles out. If you want to do it manually, then, open up all your bleeder valves, have 1 person continuously add fluid while your pumping, till you see fluid flowing from all valves, then proceed to manually bleed following the RR-LR-RF-LF order.
I use to flush fluids in my track car and made the mistake of letting the MC go try once...
Good luck!
I use to flush fluids in my track car and made the mistake of letting the MC go try once...
Good luck!
07-13-2010, 07:21 PM
#23
the acura TL bleed order is:
LF= driver front, then clockwise around the car
LF RF RR LR
since 90 percent of the readers are doing this job by hand with a helper or a small suction tool- all that matters is the correct order for that
professional techs have powered equipment--whole different world
The OP has already resolved the problem, put the regular bleeders back in, and the amount of fluid needed to fill a new system of calipers and lines has been reviewed
Never heard of going backwards on this job,,,but thanks for your input
LF= driver front, then clockwise around the car
LF RF RR LR
since 90 percent of the readers are doing this job by hand with a helper or a small suction tool- all that matters is the correct order for that
professional techs have powered equipment--whole different world
The OP has already resolved the problem, put the regular bleeders back in, and the amount of fluid needed to fill a new system of calipers and lines has been reviewed
Never heard of going backwards on this job,,,but thanks for your input
07-13-2010, 07:24 PM
#24
Note to all-
its a great idea to prefill new calipers- especially dual piston Legend calipers- they like to hide a big gulp in one piston-- or new master cylinders
and prebleed them as able
With fresh fluid there -you displaced air and make your job easier, as well as the fluid lubes the oring seals that keep fluids on one side~
its a great idea to prefill new calipers- especially dual piston Legend calipers- they like to hide a big gulp in one piston-- or new master cylinders
and prebleed them as able
With fresh fluid there -you displaced air and make your job easier, as well as the fluid lubes the oring seals that keep fluids on one side~
07-13-2010, 07:25 PM
#25
Senior Moderator
You have the wrong order, go reverse of what you just typed... RR-LR-RF-LF, especially if all your lines/calipers are almost dry. 4 pumps on an empty system is probably not enough to fill the lines. The best way is to get a pressure bleeder and open up all the bleeder valves till you've flushed all the bubbles out. If you want to do it manually, then, open up all your bleeder valves, have 1 person continuously add fluid while your pumping, till you see fluid flowing from all valves, then proceed to manually bleed following the RR-LR-RF-LF order.
I use to flush fluids in my track car and made the mistake of letting the MC go try once...
Good luck!
I use to flush fluids in my track car and made the mistake of letting the MC go try once...
Good luck!
07-13-2010, 07:30 PM
#26
Note to all-
its a great idea to prefill new calipers- especially dual piston Legend calipers- they like to hide a big gulp in one piston-- or new master cylinders
and prebleed them as able
With fresh fluid there -you displaced air and make your job easier, as well as the fluid lubes the oring seals that keep fluids on one side~
its a great idea to prefill new calipers- especially dual piston Legend calipers- they like to hide a big gulp in one piston-- or new master cylinders
and prebleed them as able
With fresh fluid there -you displaced air and make your job easier, as well as the fluid lubes the oring seals that keep fluids on one side~
07-14-2010, 07:16 AM
#27
Mr skillit
where does your info come from on the reverse bleeding order you posted?
where does your info come from on the reverse bleeding order you posted?
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