Inaccurate

We are discussing two different things. I agree that any of the IM mounts would be stronger than the oem mount (hence the oem mounts busting from stress). I agree here.

But, let me clarify what I meant regarding the catastrophic failure of this vertical bushing. Catastrophic failures usually means (in common use of this term) that something had an UNEXPECTED and UNFORESEEN (by the designer/engineer) failure that had dire consequences. This is what I see happening with these vertical mounts.

I would hope and expected that IM tested this vertical bushing in their lab (with a strain gauge) to see how much force was required to pull the bushing out of the metal bracket. Honestly, I wonder if IM really did run this test. However, we all know that lab testing and real-world usage usually differ greatly. This is what I meant when I said that IM was severely underestimating the forces at work. Let me paint the ugly picture for you -

1. The bushing might had passed lab testing (if IM did any) to meet the anticipated forces.
2. IM did not anticipate users "popping" the clutch.
3. The IM designer assume a perfect red bushing. And as we seen already, these red bushing have problems. Now what will happen when that vertical red bushing begins to fall apart. THE BUSHING WILL PULL OUT OF THE BRACKET. And, that will probably have ugly consequences when your motor is free to move about the engine bay under WOT. This differ from the oem mounts. The oem mount will not allow the engine to pull completely away from the broken mount. It remains trapped although the oem mount is busted.
4. If this vertical bushing looses tension via the center bolt becoming loose like you experienced with the previous mounts, what will happen? Again, a unexpected and unforeseen failure will occur because the vertical bushing pulled out of the bracket completely from a loss of tension. There is nothing to trap the motor in place when the bushinf pulls free of the bracket. Unlike this vertical design, the oem mount and the regular IM mounts will trap the motor preventing the motor from moving about with unlimited freedom.
5. Another force that IM underestimated was "time". What happens when those bushing become less pliable with age ? The bushing will have less friction to be held in the bracket, and the bushing will pull out of the bracket.
6. What happens if/when oil soaks into that bushing/bracket interface ? Slippery...and that bushing is going to pull out of that bracket.

Needless to say that if the regular IM mounts were of this vertical design, I would had no way in hell had put them on my car. I would be to paranoid of if/WHEN that bushing was going to pull out of the bracket.

THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING THAT BUSHING FROM ESCAPING THE BRACKET !!!! Just a designed amount of assumed friction by the
IM engineer under ideal conditions.

I do wish you no harm by hoping that I am wrong. God bless.

Inaccurate

I think that we have a flaw in our testing method.

I know from my black mounts that these urethane bushings become MUCH LESS harsh with mileage (500 or 1000 miles).

Any NEW mount would be more harsh than a mount that was already broken-in.

I bet if I took a new red mount and just fired-up the car that this new red mount would be more harsh than a broken-in "Black 75" bushing.... the NEW red mount might even be more harsh than a "85A Race (Grey)" that had 5000 miles on it.

RUF87

Sorry guy, but if you look at what was the round hole you will clearly see that the hole is no longer round, but becoming more oval . . an that is what we're talking about when we say doughnuting.

Also, you need to consider that the red bushings I took pics of to show how bad they had doughnuted, was after being installed for several months wereas the black bushings were only on for few weeks. And add to that because the blacks are harder/stronger it wouldn't begin to show extreme doughnuting as quick as the red ones would.

In addition, it is NOT normal to show the amount of wear the black ones had after such a short period of time. And I would not run the blacks any more than I'd run the reds.

Ruf

RUF87

THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING THAT BUSHING FROM ESCAPING THE BRACKET !!!! Just a designed amount of assumed friction by the
IM engineer under ideal conditions.

That is not true, at least from the vantage point I have in seeing the mount in real life. The mount is not some piece of hollow steel. It has a center hub made of steel that the bushings are pressed in to. And while it's theroritcally possible to rip the bolt through the whole assembly, it would require forces much higher than these engine could generate with a turbo, NOS or S/C.

And to further position the 2 designs, I've already destroyed 2 set of red bushings using the horizontal design. The last one within 2 weeks . . . now that's something everyone needs to worry about. Again, while the blacks are stronger, my experience leads me to believe that I'd be replacing the black bushings every 6 months. That's no better than the OEM mounts.

I suggest you call IM yourself and let them explain the design advantages and differences. I've done all I can at this point.

Ruf

RUF87

The fact that in both the 1st gen red bushings and then black bushings ended up with increasing vibrations at idle over time, in my opinion is directly related to the doughnuting of the bushings. It's very straight forward that as the bushings are stretched out of shape, the play that results from that allows the engine to move more than when it was new.

In the end, the vibration issue is primarily connected to the rear mounts. I had no problems when the rear still had the OEM mount. Anyway, I'm going to give IM one more shot and then I'll make a decision whether to put an OEM mount in the rear or keep letting them try and solve the problem.

Ruf

Inaccurate

RUF87,

Thanks for the replies. You have more experience than I do with these mounts. Sure hope that my black mounts last

RUF87

No problem . . . I want this fixed as bad as anyone . . . that's why after about a year now I'm still working on it.

Anyway, here's post I just did on the CL forum . . . and just to be 100% certain about the bushings not being able to be pulled through, IM did confirm that there is a center steel stop inside the mount, which if you removed the bushing you would see it, so we can rest assured that this design is sound.

And here's the post update I just did . . ..

There are 2 different things that we'll pursue at this point.

First, regarding the 3rd gen mounts . . . Tim said these should soften up some so give it a couple of weeks and see if it does. Since I was out for a few days I've not been driving it. Today was just the 3rd day with them, but I can say other than the vibrations, these feel even better than the black ones on the 2nd gen mount, so I'm willing to give them some time and see if it works out.

Secondly, IM is also working on yet another version of the horizontal mount design and I'll give that a go if the others don't work out.

Sigh, so . . . we're still not there, but I hope that the ones Sentinel has work out. There is one major concern I now have with the horizontal mount is that the stress point is a small surface area hitting on the inside of the bushing when it really should work like the 3rd gen design I now have. My concern is that the bushing will fail prematurely and we could be replacing bushings on a regular basis . . . say 6 months or a bit more.

Stay tuned . . .

Ruf

2003TL-S

So, really what you are deducing is that if one were to keep the OEM rear mount and just replace the front and side mount the vibrations would be no more than normal, and engine movement would be greatly decreased, not to the extent if the rear was replaced with an IM though. Now my thinking is replacing the front and side would relieve the stress off the OEM rear hence prolonging its life, correct??? If so, this may be the way I end up going, I have full confidence in IM but unless they can get a test vehicle this could take much longer than it already has.

RUF87

For the most part, you are correct . . . in what my experience and assumptions are.

Regarding the vibrations with the rear OEM and front and side IM, there was some vibration compared to full OEM, but it was very minimal in my opinion. I'd have no problem with it as a daily driver.

My thought regarding the OEM rear lasting longer with IM fronts it should last longer. My reasoning is that in both of my 2 mount failures, the front was by far the worst. So I'm assuming that if I had a stronger front, the rear should hold up.

That said, I'm not sure I would go with the 1st or 2nd gen horizontal design. The bushings have not held up well in any of the 3 different cases I tested them. IM is coming out with one more horizontal design that I'm planning on testing. It's supposed to reduced the amount of pressure that is placed on the bushing by the center bolt. If that doesn't work out, my plan of now is to use the vertical design on the front, and an OEM in the rear.

Note: I have not yet tested the vertical mount with an OEM rear, so it's an assumption that it will have minimal vibrations.

Ruf

yunginTL

any other updates on this?

Bfor3

iTrader: (2)

Updates?

TLGOD84

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...492237&page=22

RUF87

From this point on I'll only post the details in the CL Forum . . . sorry. I will come over here and let you know that there have been meaning full updates.

As for me . . in short I'm about to throw in the towel and put an OEM mount back on the rear.

Depending on how much trouble I have with that process will determine whether I will try out future designs . . so stay tuned.

The final set up will have an OEM rear, IM side and IM 3rd Gen on the front. I'll report back the results once I get it in.

Meanwhile . . . I getting tranny number 3. . . . I made it by 1 month, so it'll be under warranty.

Ruf

RUF87

Well, I'm not throwing in the towel completely . . . but I did remove the IM rear mount and install a new OEM mount. And as we already knew and expected . . . vibration problem solved.

We are still trying to get IM to do a conference call with 3 of us, but no reponse yet.

Click to read about the most recent findings and thoughts.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...492237&page=22

Ruf

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

I think I'm just going to live with it.. It's kind of soothing at lights when I sit back in my seat and sort of get a massage.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

For the 3G's, at least, the front mount has a square base, whereas the base on the rear mount is slightly inwardly curved (concaved).

RUF87

I'm fairly confident that the 3Gs were redesigned by Acura because they were a known weak link.

Also there have been some updates on the CL side of this issue, and more coming.

Ruf

RUF87

I'm Done With Innovative!

I've been trying for over a month to get an update from Innovative on the status of the latest redesign. I've tested several different designs to help them fix the vibration problem with the rear mount. I've also asked for the 2 references that Innovative claims to have no vibration problems . . . and have not provided them. Innovative is denying that there is a significant vibration problem and has not looked at the video I took to prove otherwise.

Since I've had to resort to replacing the rear mount with an OEM mount to solve the vibration problems I will no longer do free testing of their mounts.

I still have Innovative mounts on the front (3rd gen design) and the side (2nd gen).

NOTE: The following recommendations only apply to Innovative mounts for the 2nd Gen CL/TLs.

I DO NOT recommend anyone use any of the front, rear or side first gen Innovative mounts.

I also DO NOT recommend using the 2nd gen front or rear mounts.

And finally, I DO NOT recommend installing any of their rear mounts as no design to date has been anywhere close to being satisfactory.

You may PM me for a more timely response or post here in hopes that I will check from time to time.

Finally, The overall desire to address the weakness of the OEM mounts is still an issue I will continue to invest some time on, but not at the rate I've done so far. Better motor mounts are a big plus for our cars, so please let me know if you come across anything and I will check in to it and add my

I'm sorry this hasn't worked out . . . I'm not sure what actions if any to take with Innovative . . . but I know a lot of people spent a lot of money and time on a product that did not work out . . . if anyone wishes to discuss what all I and or other's have done with Innovative please PM me and I'll respond as appropriate.

Ruf

sbuswell

that sucks. Has anyone here just filled their stock mounts with polyurethane?

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

thats what im gonna do this weekend maybe. gonna follow the simple DIY. and ill see how long it lasts.

RUF87

Yes, go to the CL forum . . . distortedskool has already done all 3 mounts. I got to see them first hand and he did a great job.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...492237&page=26

Ruf

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

I am experiencing a little bit of a rough ride, but nothing like RUF is saying. There's a pretty good vibration at idle (even more pronounced with the A/C on) and a little bit of roughness during accelerating.

fsttyms1

Im working on something my self that i hope to have done soon. Ill keep you posted. Im also trying not to get too crafty with it in hopes that others could fabricate what im doing (if it works)

pmptx

front and side are done on mine and they are still in good shape 40Kmiles later.

NYtypeS03

yea hopefully we can figure this out my rear doesnt annoy me much i just pop it in Neutral at lights just i cant stand having to see my g/f give me the grill of can u fix this already lol how can you tell what gen mounts you are using i bought mine like 7 months ago off a member who never installed it. I know it came with the revised side mount thats it. Also does anyone this trying to do something with the bushing like polying filling it or window weld trick maybe?

RUF87

For the latest update check the CL forum link.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...492237&page=26

Ruf

sorviu

i want to know if do you have the website link for look the innovate motor mounts because my engine have a lot of torque and i supposed innovate dont fabricated motor mount for acura TL 00

RUF87

You can search the link I posted above as it has several pictures of the various mounts that were tried.

If you really want to waste your time with Innovative, just go to their website. I suggest you look at the DIY approach Distortedskool did.

Ruf