Sust Man

Just got a 4 wheel align and new tires after a minor wreck. My specs state -.8 left wheel and + 1.0 right wheel (camber). My car doesn't pull PERFECTLY straight, but you need to be going faster to notice the gradual pull to the right. Should I tell them to even the camber out more? This seems like a big difference even tho it is technically within specs. I think the mechanic was being lazy.

MurdaZ

iTrader: (1)

what way is the crown of the road sloping, and the car drifting too?

Sust Man

Pulls to the right. One part of the highway by me crowns left in the left lane. It stays straight on here and pulls right if you let go of the wheel long enough. Suspension doesn't feel as planted. Maybe a little more floaty. Could be the new tires, but it NEVER pulled any direction it wasn't pointed before, unless the road had a significant crown to it. It had never been wrecked before this.

fsttyms1

_.8 on one side and +1 on the other??? Id tell them to get them a little closer to spec. I wouldnt want positive camber no matter what. A little negative will help the car handle better.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

but camber is not adjustable though on our cars, without aftermarket parts

btw the way are you lowered???


anyways if it has a degree of POSITIVE camber, i would say something is bent, and needs to be fixed ASAP, but also the cross membermight be severly shifted also, those numbers should be basically even side to side ( hell i was pissy about .4 degrees of difference and the slight drift, so i got adjustable upper arms, to even them out, now my castor is off , and the wheel is biased towards the left ever so slightly, very hard to tell at times

01tl4tl

the accident damage is not repaired- thats the first prob-
what does the toe say on each wheel?

you cannot adjust the camber without aftermarket camber kits
Only the toe is adjustable front and rear and is what makes the car pull- not camber

toe is the wheels pointing in or out against straight forward and is a measured distance

camber is an imaginary vertical line- lowered cars have the top of the tire point inwards- thats too much negative camber

back to the body shop with your readout- they should have gotten it checked and aligned for you- where are the results of that?

dudeinaTL

iTrader: (1)

Uneven camber can affect the direction of the car if the road isn't perfectly flat.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

yeah 01tl4tl lol


but yes camber can also affect pulling, not as much as toe though, but it can and does, even castor has an affect on if the car drives striaght or not, not as much as camber or toe but it still does though

both my toe and camber are dead even on my car, and as said before it still has a ever so slight pull, most people would probably never notice though, due to the castor being like 0.4 difference betwenn the two sides (one side is 2.8 and the other side is 3.2)

01tl4tl

lets get back to the fact- car was in an accident, camber only changes when a wheel strut or suspension part is bent
otherwise they match left and right perfect
since there is not slotted rails or whatever to adjust camber--its usually a toe issue ,,after the car is back together right

still waiting for the toe readout

01tl4tl

to correct terms-
camber is vertical line,, and tire laying flat to the road/angle
castor is wheel being in front or behind the imaginary line for camber

toe is the adjustment for wheels to point in or out or straight ahead

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

don't get me wrong, but yes the camber should match side to side with it correctly and no bent parts (or at least within a couple of tenths)
and yes toe can also cause those numbers too, but as long as those are fairly striaght, those camber numbers are no where close to being correct




and to OP, what type of damage/ accident was it, so it can help us visulize of where the car got hit

cause if i was to say what happened is that you slid/slammed the car into a curb on the front right wheel

01tl4tl

with the toe being the only adjustment on a stock TL, first the camber and caster must be correct if you want the car to go straight -
and we agree its something bent in a major way to put the numbers opposite like that

Body shops often try to slide without doing all the work they claimed-or they honestly missed something (riiiight)
if the customer is ok with how it drives and doesnt come back to complain- they made a free 500 dollars or whatever,,it happens-
I was in the biz just long enough to learn the tricks and decide not to work in daily thievery and lying--even more than as a service writer (pained grin)

Sust Man

Sorry just now able to read this. My car has been lowered, with adjustable ball joints for camber, in perfect alignment for the last 6 years. The shop replaced the right control arm.

A car turned right from the left lane, hitting my drivers fender. It lightly pushed my right front tire into the curb which gave it visible positive camber. I was amazed that the lower control arm was the only bent component, as it is much stronger than the upper ball joint. Here are my specs:
(after align/before align/ spec range)
front wheels:
left toe = -0.8/ -0.7/ -1.0 to + 1.0_____right toe 1.0/ 1.0/ -1.0 to +1.0
left caster = 2.7/ 2.7/ 1.8 to 3.8_____right caster 3.2/ 3.2/ 1.8 to 3.8
left toe = -.03/ -.28/ -.08 to +.08_____right toe +.05/ -.27/ -.08 to +.08

Sust Man

Found an old alignment sheet from right after I lowered my car 5 years ago. These are the specs from it when my car tracked perfectly with perfectly even tire wear:

Left camber 0.87_____right camber 0.72

Left caster 2.88_____right caster 3.00

Left toe -0.01______right toe 0.00


I think most cars should have close to 0 camber in the fronts and a little negative in the rears if I am not mistaken...

Sust Man

corrected specs. 1st #'s are camber. oops

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

then if so, i think your ball joint might have just slid outta of alignment, jack up the car, and look for scratch marks on that ball joints slotted section for indication that it has slid



btw was there any marks such as scratches and stuff on that front driver's wheel, to give a indication that the other car had touched it, almost does not look like it

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and by those numbers i think it should actually be pulling quite well to the right also, cause castor, camber, and toe would all make it go to the right (and the steering whell is probably pointed to the left also)

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

are you sure those camber numbes are really positive, cause it may track striaght (or slightly to the right but not much though, depends on the rear alignment also) but it would have turned like shit though, with a very light steering wheel effort



anyways the factory does call for 0 camber up front, but a little bit of negetive camber does wounders for the handleing, even if it is like -0.5, and it hardly even affects tire wear at that, just a little inside wear, but before cords show though, the whole tread should be worn out anyways

TLer trash

I think fries is right about these numbers. Lowering almost always nets about 1 degree negative camber on our cars.
Something you could do is having someone try to shift the engine cradle slightly. It might have gotten shifted when the control arm bent. You're usually better off having a frame shop or the dealer try this as opposed to say a franchise tire, muffler, whatever shop

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

an independent shop is good too, (but yeah no franchise one though like big-o-tires or something; and even then i would be hesistent to even go to the dealer also, 95% are garbage, and the last 5% only then have some good techs)

and anyways the body shop that did the repair in the first place should be taken care of it (if not call up your insurance especially if they paid for it, and they can maybe withhold money if not taken care of properly [maybe not the money for your car exactly, but for other jobs though, that will go through there eventually)
and if that fails i would see if the insurance would let you find another shop or alignment shop to take it to, for it to be aligned properly (but you might have to pay outta pocket some though)

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

also to help make sure it is not a bent knuckle, make sure they also get a Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) to help make sure it is not bent (it is the angle of a imaginary line between the ball joints, and how the wheel rolls itself) it should be even on both sides or damn near close to it, since they are cast parts

01tl4tl

remember what I said about shops charging for work they dont do--like `frame straightening`...............

whats your invoice got to say?
and why didnt they align it before return- thats standard- the are supposed to give you back the car fixed and done = not you have to run around to more shops

trust me- the insurance got billed for it

Sust Man

That's what the sheet says. I will say that the steering does have lighter effort now which I do not like. It feels less connected to the road.... more "floaty". I agree that a slight amount of negative camber in the front would be in order. I think they should have just given the right wheel more negative camber to match the left.

Sust Man

more specs (aligned, before)

SAI left 8.4, 8.4______SAI right 8.1, 8.0

The shop did say that they like to replace the knuckle and everything on cars they work on, but they have to prove to the insurance company that it cant be aligned without replacing a knuckle here or a ball joint there...

Sust Man

The did align something. Look at my specs again. It looks like they were maybe being lazy though because all they did alignment wise was replace the lower control arm and adjust toe.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

it's cause of that positive camber on the front right, and i bet you when you turn it each way, the effort is probably not the same either with it being stiffer to the left (might actually be the right )

and it probably feels more planted too turning right then it does turning left

if indeed the knuckle is bent, should be easy to prove to the insurance that it needs replacement, especially with having a previous alignment sheet, showing what it was previously, and btw those SAI angles should not change over the life of the car, even if it is even a 1/10 of a degree of difference
so just have them recheck it up on the alignment rack, and if the numbers are different, that should be enough to prove to the insurance that it needs a new knuckle
and as long as those are the same as before, i think that adjustable ball joint shifted and just needs to be loosened realigned and then retightened, no really big deal, you could say they never knew about the adjustable ball joint, but it should have never been returned to you though, in it's current state, then if they had looked further into it, they should have seen the ball joint already there, and just adjusted (and charged the insurance accordingly if needed)

and for that lower control arm, i think they might have just saw the bad camber, put a new arm on it, and called it good
btw does that arm look new??? might be a used arm idk, but if new it should be all nice and clean and shiny, and then even if it was used, you should see indications that it had been replaced lately and such, with point where the dirt and such has been rubbed off where they had grab it and such

but yeah i think they were being extremely lazy and could care two shits about actually aligning it right

how ever you look at it, i think it might be worth a shot to call the insurance and complain, and see if they will let you find a better shop to actually do the work

so to answear your oringional question, YES you should be BITCHING, i can understand maybe a little off, but not as much as yours is though

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

it's cause of that positive camber on the front right, and i bet you when you turn it each way, the effort is probably not the same either with it being stiffer to the left (might actually be the right )

and it probably feels more planted too turning right then it does turning left



if indeed the knuckle is bent, should be easy to prove to the insurance that it needs replacement, especially with having a previous alignment sheet, showing what it was previously, and btw those SAI angles should not change over the life of the car, even if it is even a 1/10 of a degree of difference (actually maybe 2 to 3/tenths depending the amount of wear and such on the bearings, but it should be minamial though)
so just have them recheck it up on the alignment rack, and if the numbers are different, that should be enough to prove to the insurance that it needs a new knuckle
and as long as those are the same as before, i think that adjustable ball joint shifted and just needs to be loosened realigned and then retightened, no really big deal, you could say they never knew about the adjustable ball joint, but it should have never been returned to you though, in it's current state, then if they had looked further into it, they should have seen the ball joint already there, and just adjusted (and charged the insurance accordingly if needed)



and for that lower control arm, i think they might have just saw the bad camber, put a new arm on it, and called it good
btw does that arm look new??? might be a used arm idk, but if new it should be all nice and clean and shiny, and then even if it was used, you should see indications that it had been replaced lately and such, with point where the dirt and such has been rubbed off where they had grab it and such (also the cotter pin on the ball joint should be new also, even if they did use a used arm)
and heres anyother issue i see, is if the control arm was INDEED bent, the wheel bearing should be completely gone, with much play in it, cause those lower control arms are not exactly the easiest to bend (there cast iron/steel btw) then also (and the ball joint would probably have play in it also)
the other thing i have just thought about that camber being off is that you may actually need a new crossmember due to it elongating the lower bolt hole inwards, and considering how far the camber is off, they should have noticed it when they did that lower control arm, cause that bolt has to be undone to pull the control arm out



but yeah i think they were being extremely lazy and could care two shits about actually aligning it right

how ever you look at it, i think it might be worth a shot to call the insurance and complain, and see if they will let you find a better shop to actually do the work

so to answear your oringional question, YES you should be BITCHING, i can understand maybe a little off, but not as much as yours is though









mod please delete the first post of this (and add the qoutes from the first one in here also)

Sust Man

Thanks alot for everyones input. I didn't want to be one of those annoying nitpicky customers. Now I know I have a good reason to complain.

01tl4tl

we are not talking a speck off here-
its NOT repaired, and they didnt know about your adjustable camber kit but can reset it correctly and see if anything else is bent

insurance cases have to be added to all the time

Its not bitching when you paid for it to be done right~

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

x2, with not a speck off, but they still should have said something though, even if they did not know about the adjustable ball joint, with how far off it is (it may still be within spec [i know the left side is, but not 100% sure though on the right though], but the amount of difference should have thrown a red flag immediatly though, of why it is that much of a difference


but anyways to OP, when adding to an insurance claim, it's called a "sublet", i would say it AT LEAST happens on every other car, if not a whole lot more, so it is a pretty standard thing to do

rcb2000

lot of bad information about alignments.

Toe is self centering going down the road and does not cause a pull, it causes tire ware and the steering wheel to not be center,

Toe is the measurement that the wheels are not parallel from each other measured in inches or feet per mile of tire scuff relative to in or out as the car goes down the road.

Castor can effect the car going down the road and make it pull one way or the other typically it has to be a major difference from right to left to cause this, usually 3/4 degree more of positive castor to the left wheel is ideal to compensate for the crown of the road.


Camber has the biggest effect on pulling one way or the other, A good alignment shop will set the camber at 0 degrees for both sides start getting more than 1/2 degree spread in camber will create a pull one way or the other.


just blows me away some of the BS being thrown out in this thread.

rcb2000

they don't if they never looked at it but it would be pretty obvious if they did look at the upper control arm or ball joint, as they should have been look at the ball joint to see if it had been replaced with an adjustable verson as that is the only way to align this model of car to start with.

Now it should have been put on a frame rack and the body straightened (unitized body last time I look) no frames on almost all cars on the road today.

So if it was on a rack and straighten then they would have been able to determind if the spindle was bent or if an offset ball joint was enough to bring the alignment back to spec.