mzdrati

Hi-

I am looking for some help solving a brake vibration problem I am experiencing on my 170,000 mi 1999 TL. I read on Acurazine many threads regarding brake rotor "warping", but I have recently replaced the front and rear rotors, pads and calipers (Legend front calipers, and of course did a complete brake fluid replacement and bleed), yet the vibration persists. So- I replaced the front struts, but that didn't solve the problem either.

Is there a thrust bushing somewhere, or something else I am missing? I do still get a subtle "clunk" from the front end when going over uneven roads. I do a lot of my own work, but I took the car to an extremely experienced mechanic/friend of mine, and he looked the car over on a lift, told me everything looks good, and swears the pedal and steering wheel vibration feels like "warped" rotors.

I replaced the rotors (again) last weekend, with new ones purchased at Autozone (by the way- Autozone offers a 2-year replacement warranty on brake rotors. If they deform within 2 years, they'll replace them- free. And they did). I gently bedded-in the pads (ceramic) and within minutes, the vibration was back.

My mechanic does not think so, but could it be a matter of just poor quality rotors? If I went to the Acura stealership and paid a lot of money (comparatively) and bought Acura brand rotors, will they somehow be better? Don't get me wrong- the higher price would be worth it to me, but I am driving straight up delicately with these latest Autozone rotors and for the car to exhibit the same vibration makes me think that it's NOT the rotors. I can't see how, but could it have something to do with the fact that I'm using the Legend calipers?

Please- any advise would be appreciated. I really like this car. It has served me very well and continues to, but the miles are getting up there, and I really don't want to just pour money into this car if I can't get it to stop like it is supposed to.

Thanks in advance!

TONY

TLin401

Where exactly do you feel the vibrations coming from when you brake? The steering wheel? the pedal?

mzdrati

I feel the vibration coming from both the steering wheel and the brake pedal. I feel it a bit more through the pedal than through the wheel.

Thanks for taking the time to try to help me.

TONY

'02_TL-S

Go aftermarket rotors next time..if you don't mind spending the money EBC or Rotoras FTW! Also I remember something about bent axle that could cause the vibration. But if you say it's when braking and you feel it in the pedal then most likely warped rotors. Sorry I can't be of more help. I might be when I finally fix my own vibration which I'm almost positive is mostly from warped rotors. But I also have one slightly bent rim Aspecs to come soon!

TLin401

Tony, I suspect the rotors of just being bad quality because that is the way mine were before I replaced them.

I went from OEM to aftermarket drilled/slotted.

Also the clunk that you hear when you go over bumps can be either your ball joints or upper control arm.

My car made that noise before I had my ball joints replaced.

For the rotor situation though, you can find some cheap good quality d/s rotors just about anywhere. I got mine on eBay and I also know people that got theirs there and there have not been any issues with them.

Also when was the last time you had your tires balanced?

You might have a broken steel plate in a tire (you would see a bubble forming). I would have the tires and ball joints checked out first. It is the cheapest. Then go with aftermarket rotors if that is not the problem.

TLin401

I just thought of another thing, have your axles checked out.

Your suspension could be bent.

Were you recently in an accident? Was the car ever in an accident?

01tl4tl

ck the suspension-steerng parts parts as said above- by a shop that does that type of work. ball joint and control arm are good suspects

If there is a misfit on the rotor to hub and some contact is being made- (ck inside of rotor for metal wear near center of hub)
A well known brand had that issue and it would shake the steering wheel violently on some cars and annoyingly on others while cruising, and under braking was a fight for the wheel as it danced in your hands
Would be ok for a day then start shaking again with new rotors
prob was fixed with some change to clearance inside hub contact area--
so its worth a look!

Legend calipers not the issue- you installed unit marked L on passenger side and R on driver side so bleeder is at the top- correct?
did you remove the big center spring from the legend caliper and used the TL brackets?- that spring clip is not needed and causes problem if contact made to outer rotor edge

zone rotors are ~ok~- equal or better than oe which are known as the Warpmasters

Tire balance was done? and rechecked for a missing weight,
Ive had one of those come off and go crazy looking for a major shake problem....
Always recheck whatever was done last is my motto

reminder brake bleed order is driver front then clockwise- LF RF RR LR
Its strange due to ABS plumbing
MUST be done that way or you can get air trapped- that will cause braking vibration and squishy pedal

Were the pad slider tabs and backs and the bracket slider cleaned and greased?

totaledTL

Had similar issue but mine only shook the wheel. Resurfaced existing rotors, was shake free so I thought it was cured. Lasted less than 1K miles before returning. Replaced rotors with EBC blanks next time & no further issues to date.

mzdrati

Thank you to those who took the time to reply thus far. I am taking the car to my friend's shop first thing tomorrow morning, and will investigate the upper arm busnings as well as the rotor-caliper interface. As a last resort- I'll replace the rotors with the EBC ones, since they get such good press on this site- but I'll be shocked if the problem is poor / cheap rotor castings since I've tried 3 different pairs (and 2 different brands) with the same results each time. Who knows- these days- all of the rotors could be the same thing in different packaging/branding.

Anyone who is following this thread might be interested in reading this:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

In case you are not familiar with "Stoptech" they are one of the best-known performance brake upgrade specialists in the business. They have a very interesting article on what they call the myth of warped rotors where they say that warping a rotor basically cannot happen. I did read in that article that since price is king, most manufacturers are removing the rotor castings from their molds before the parts are fully ready in order to start making the next batch, and that may lead to poor metal structure quality of the rotors.

TONY

totaledTL

When you check the rotor hat and hub surfaces make certain no part of the (probably) broken off rotor retaining screws are sticking out. That can cause runout problems.

CJITTY

i had this same thing happen to me for a long time on my Accord..turns out my caliper parts were bad and causing the pad to not release fully from the rotors...they fixed my caliper parts and voila, issue gone and car rode great! hopefully thats all that is wrong with yours..

TV II's TL

Let me know how it turns out. I have the exact same problem. I replaced the rotors w/ autozone rotors and it worked for awhile. Now it starts back up under heavy breaking. This is very frustrating. Sorry to jump topic, but does anyone have any suggestions for brake squeeling? I know its coming from the rear and I replaced the rear brakes. That worked for about a day and it was back. Its terrible to pull up in a drive thru and have people covering their ears! This is a TL not a junker..........

01tl4tl

are the rotors edged- that will make them squeel

mzdrati

OK- I spent 3 hours with my mechanic looking over every aspect of the suspension (upper control arm bushings, lower ball joints, thrust bushings, tie rods, sway bar and associated end links). My mechanic noticed a TINY bit of movement fron the passenger side lower ball joint, but he thinks it is so small that it wouldn't cause a vibration. (He was isolating the movement with the car held low on the lift, and a long breaker bar flexing the tire upwards and even staring at the ball joint I couldn't tell it was moving at all. Then again, I don't do this for a living.) The struts were just replaced (they have been getting progessively worse, so I thought that they were the culprit, but replacing them did not solve the vibration). There is still a discreet "bobble- bobble" sound that you can hear when going over small road imperfections.

My mechanic did notice that the Legend calipers were using a pad that was for some reason not centered on the rotor (part of the pad was hanging off the edge of the rotor). It turns out that when I purchased the loaded calipers, I put them on assuming that the pads were OK, but they are awful, don't fit right, and are crumbling at the edges already (after 3 months of light use). We took them out and put another set of pads in, and they fit like they should. We also cut the rotors to make sure we were starting with even surfaces, but on the drive home there was more vibration than I was expecting for new pads and true rotors.

I had somewhere to be so I went straight home. I didn't beat on the brakes; on the test drive home I was braking lightly, and parked the car. I do not think we solved the problem. It wasn't as severe as it was before we turned the rotors and replaced the pads, but I suspect the car is still vibrating more than it should.

Could the problem possibly lie in the front wheels/tires? I am using stock size tires (older Michelin MXV+4's- I know- they are not the best tire but money is short these days, and I was planning on running them until they are gone) on stock TL wheels. They are monitored semi-weekly (I often drive long distance on business, and I check my tire pressures quite often, and inspect the tires visually when I put gas in the car). They are inflated to 34 psi and balanced probably 4 or 5 months ago. I wouldn't think that they are the problem, but at this point, I'll try anything. I think I'll rotate them tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. If anyone has any other suggestions please chime in.

Thanks!

TONY

mzdrati

One more thought:

I am reading on other posts here on AZINE that Honda/Acura brakes suck and nobody has much of anything good to say about using the OEM or common autopart store variety of brake rotors. I have had many other cars, and have never found a performance difference between the OEM rotors (which are twice the price) and those offered at Pep Boys or Autozone. I even had the (week-old) rotors cut to verify that they are as straight as possible, and the brake lathe showed almost no run-out, so the rotors were pretty much straight before cutting them.

I really do not have the extra money to run out and buy a pair of Brembo or ATE rotors if they are not going to fix the problem. My mechanic does not think the rotors are the problem, but people on these forums have sworn that repeated vibration problems have been solved with name brand rotors. Anyone with more information that I have on the topic (which, other than my previous experience, is basically zero).

TONY

01tl4tl

ok here is the problem- you bought loaded legend calipers which came with legend pads - that you tried to install on TL rotors!!!@!

You did use the TL brackets right?- the legends are 1-2mm off at the bolt holes and would take some creative work to make fit- or not fit right and make a severe problem


So what you need is a set of TL pads- they fit right and should fix your problem
Its TL pads -TL rotors- TL mounting bracket for the Legend caliper
and dont use the big center clip inside the legend caliper

calipers are mounted so the one with the big R goes on driver side and L on passenger side so the bleeders are at the top---- correct????!

And brakes were flushed/bled in this order: LF driver front then clockwise LF RF RR LR

Luke7

I had a Prelude years ago. Honda had major problems with brake rotors warping in 1986.
I went to the Honda garage (car was under warranty) and had the rotors replaced 5 times withing 30,000 miles. One time I drove away from the garage and stopped a mile down the road, turned around, went back to the garage, got the mechanic to drive the car to show him how bad the rotors were that he just replaced. He tryed bedding them in. Didn't work so they replaced them for the 5th time. I found out from another source that Honda had gotten a bad batch of rotors and they knew of the problem. I finally bought after market (Brembo's) and things were smooth for the next 125,000 miles. Your problem could be something else but bad rotors from the factorys do happen.

mzdrati

01Tl4Tl: When my mechanic saw the poor fitment of the pads- he was certain that putting new, properly-fitting pads in would fix the problem. I can't believe that I didn't notice that the Legend pads were different than the TL pads! I am no beginner when it comes to working on cars, but this is a silly mistake to make.

I have the brakes set up exactly as you described (using the TL brackets and all). I'll take the car for a longer drive today, but my first impression from the drive home yesterday is that they are still jumping around more than I'd like. Since I replaced the entire braking system (well, everything but the master cylinder) over the last 3 or 4 months, I guess I could go and do another full brake bleed and see if that helps (of course- longest line to shortest), then if it does not, rotate the tires...

Thanks so much for taking the time to try to help me.

Luke: It's stories like yours that make me want to go out and buy name brand rotors and give that a try. Logically- I have a hard time believing that even under LIGHT brake loads, these generic rotors (that have been trued on a brake lathe just to verify that they are straight) won't work for 1 mile and not vibrate. That's why I am hesitant throwing money at that aspect of this problem. I already have two sets of rotors for this car and I don't want a third (unless they are mounted on the car solving the problem.)

Other than the action items stated above, I'm out of ideas.

Thanks again guys.

TONY

TLin401

Damn dude so it was just a matter of the brackets????

WOWWWWWWW

That sucks anyway...

At least you got it fixed.

01tl4tl

MZ-
brake bleed is NOT longest to shortest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats regular cars~
- due to the abs plumbing the order on the TL is as follows and NO other way
Driver front= LF then clockwise around the car- LF RF RR LR
anything else will leave air in the lines

do that again and see if it helps

01tl4tl

the differance in the pads is subtle and hard to see if you dont know ahead of time
I tried the brackets just to know what the problem was and it couldnt be seen until trying to tighten the bolts..just a few mm off- fk!

thats why all the times I posted part numbers for referance, it was for semi loaded- with brackets that you take the new end spring clips and bolts from and use them on the TL--cheap way to get new hardware bits,, then throw the legend bracket back in the box with the old TL caliper for return

note to others- parts store actually prefer getting a TL caliper back instead of Legend- not many people know the trick so they sell more plain TL calipers- your old one becomes someones new one

01tl4tl

always best to recheck all past work before suspecting the rotors and buying new ones again
Unless there is metal shavings found inside the rotor hub from contact- that would show a fitment problem from bad batch of rotors- I had those from a major maker of performace rotors!!

01tl4tl

ck correct torque on calipers to brackets- too tight like with an air gun will bind them up

mzdrati

Really? can you please explain that bleed order to me? I have another ABS-equiped car (a very low mileage 1988 BMW M3) and a BMW Master Mechanic friend of mine told me that the longest to shortest rule applies to that car. Why is the TL any different?

I drove the car a little today, and it definitely feel better, but it still shakes- especially on longer stops (gradual speed reduction from a higher speed). I let a friend drive the car and while in the passenger seat, I noticed vibration coming from under my feet.

401: I did not use the Legend brackets- I have been using the correct brackets all along. I was using the Legend brake pads that came in the loaded calipers, and that was responsible for at least some of the vibration.

My friend who took the car for a drive thinks that the lower ball joint is the culprit, but my mechanic is telling me that although it is a *tiny* bit loose, it's not loose enough to cause a vibration. Anyone have an opinion on that?

I'm definitely going to bleed the brakes, take it for a spin, then do a tire rotation and see if that makes any difference.

Thanks again guys!

TONY

TLin401

That makes a ton of sense.

I used the order or LF RF LR RR when I replaced my caliper last weekend and it def changed my braking. I am no longer losing fluid and the pedal doesn't have to be pressed as far down. Now I just have to get tires and then my car is ready for the winter.

01tl4tl

the TL is special in its bleed order- not same as any other car I have worked on! I didnt believe it till I read it in the book

It is due to the ABS plumbing and how it routes affecting tube length etc, they dont go direct like old school- its all crossover valves and things I dont know about internally~
Other euro car systems I cannot tell you about, and leave it to a tech of those cars

for the TL this is the way, and only way to to do it right!

Driver front = LF then clockwise around the car- your owner book will confirm this
LF RF RR LR
driver front then passenger front
move to rear of car
passenger rear and finally driver rear

Also if you had the lines open-- to replace calipers for example-
This is from the shop service book:

you MUST do 2 ABS activated stops from 45mph- throw water on the street if you have to, but the pedal must be shaking under your foot at max effort..
to know the ABS PUMP and master controller are working and pushing out the small secret trapped air bubble or 4 ,, move them to the nearest caliper- the driver front--for you to bleed out
I redo the whole system if any found,, to be safe

the test is get to 45mph and stomp brake pedal- once stopped accellerate to 45mph and stomp brake come to complete stop both times-
If the 2nd time had a stiffer- firmer pedal there WAS air in the ABS-
go bleed the brakes and you should have much improved braking

rotate the tires to see if its a rim issue

did you grease the back of the pads where the pistons contact and the front pad gets grease where the fingers contact the pad backing
and greased the slider tabs on the end of the pads- and the metal plate you took from the legend bracket is greased for the pad tabs to ride on-?
they move in and out about 1-2mm when in action- thats how brakes work

Dont experiment with your buddies bleeding methods- just do it Acuras way!

01tl4tl

TLin401 redo yours with the correct order for rears

totaledTL

Huh? Sounds like he's still trying to figure it out-

01tl4tl

I sticking with bleed them per acuras method and most of the prob will go away
Past that its a tire or rim issue

mzdrati

01tl4tl- I am not stubborn in the slightest. I am planning on bleeding the brakes anyway. I'll do the bleed the way you mentioned and report back. The calipers are lubricated properly, and with the car sitting on a lift were operated with the tires off to verify that everything is moving and returning as designed.

In MY mind- the problem sounds and feels like a bushing or a balljoint issue. My mechanic disagrees, and his opinion trumps mine, as I'm no expert. I have yet to see anyone attribute vibration to bushing or balljoint wear, at least not in AZINE.

Thanks again guys! I really appreciate your input!

TONY

01tl4tl

its possible a worn bushing is invovled- why dont you go to a suspension shop for inspection--an eye who knows what wears out on various cars thru experience

Im not trying to say you are stubborn~ just want you to get the system working right and see if that solves part of all- its not cool to be driving with air somewhere in the BRAKE system

01tl4tl

another thought- on legend calipers- if you dont prefill them before install to get most of the air out- its really easy to have some trapped in the dual piston setup--had it happen is why I know

I usually prefill and partially bleed any new hydraulic part like that.. to protect the seals inside- once oil is on them they move much easier~

mzdrati

No- don't misunderstand me- I'm trying to say that I appreciate your guidance and efforts. All I was trying to say is that I know that there are a lot of things I don't know about cars, (apparently all cars are not bled the same way, as I thought they were). I won't get to it until next weekend, as I'll be 9 hours from home for the Thanksgiving holiday, and we're taking the Odyssey, not the TL).

Just curious- what is the mechanism by which a tiny amount of air bubbles in the brake lines translate to a vibration problem? I have verified that the brakes are not dragging, so the pads are returning to their positions away from the rotor. Air in the lines gives the brakes a spongy, indirect feel for sure, but that's not my problem.

No, I did not pre-fill the calipers. I probably should have, and will the next time I replace calipers. I made that mistake on my go kart rear brake, and had fluid coming out everywhere until the seals got wet. Then it sealed and worked perfectly.

The TL brakes were working fine when I put them on and bled them back in July (even with the incorrect Legend pads). Over the past month in a half or 2 months, it has gotten progressively worse.

BTW- the mechanic with whom I am working IS a suspension and allignment expert. He showed me how to check all of the joints and bushings, but the only thing we could find that was even close to loose was the passenger-side lower ball joint.

He is friends with a tech at the local Acura dealership, so he and I are going to go over there to see if that tech can give us his opinion.

Thanks again! Have a great Thanksgiving!

TLer trash

The one thing that you haven't mentioned is checking the runout of the rotors ON the car. Try that, along with measuring the hub flange runout. Depending on what the results are, you might have to re-index the rotors on the hubs or use an on car lathe. Make sure the flanges are clean and free of rust. Just one rust flake between the flange and rotor can screw things up.

mzdrati

OK- so I had to spend the Thanksgiving holiday at my inlaws house 9 hours away from where I live. We took the Odyssey, so I left my TL with my mechanic (at his request) so he could delve into what is causing the problem. He is friends with a local Acura tech, and they poured over the car together for an hour. The tech swears it's a "pad and rotor" problem, but I still think it's something else. After the tech left my mechanic's garage, he found what he believes is the problem: a completely broken rear transmission mount.

He's replacing it and expects the car to stop without any drama. Anyone ever have vibration while braking turn out to be the result of a broken tranny mount? For the record- there is no vibration while accelerating.

Thanks!

TONY

03tlswfl

do yourself a favor and stay away from ATE rotors. i have had nothing but squeeking at very low speeds and disappointing firm feel while breaking heavily. now it has reached the point of it being very annoying approaching red lights and or slow moving traffic. if funds were a little easier to come by, i would switch back to Power Slots or any high end name brand.

i would revert back to your old calipers with performance rotors and pads. certain things are not meant to be messed with in a car and every car has its own something not to be messed with. too much energy and time wasted trying to solve this issue.

plus, when it comes to brakes, just like tires, you never cheap out for something mediocre. your life might heavily depend on these items for survival.

03tlswfl

wow, i did not read further down the page to read about the tranny mount. not something that i would suspect.

well, at least your issue is resolved once and for all and a good lesson learned.

thx.

totaledTL

Maybe it's your pads rather than ATE rotors- you don't mention them-?

He didn't say it was resolved, yet-

01tl4tl

broken rear mount would mess things up, odd one to break but maybe the front and side were broken for a long time and finally replaced, but the rear was already overworked...

if its a vac assisted mount the car will run better too

mzdrati

Got the car back today with a new rear tranny mount. It didn't fix the problem.

The car still vibrates wildly when braking. My mechanic did notice that the swaybar end links were also bad (and the bushings were half gone) so he replaced them, and that quieted one of the sounds I was hearing, but my real concern is the vibration. My mechanic also rotated the tires in case there was a shifted belt or a crack in one of the wheels... None of it helped.

03tlswfl: I'm with you on that idea. I put the Legend rebuilt calipers on in June, (with new Autozone Rotors, (the wrong Legend pads) and rebuilt Napa TL rear calipers with new pads) and the car stopped perfectly until September, when this vibration appeared. I knew my front struts were bad, so I assumed that they were the culprit, but when I had my mechanic change them and the car still had the same problem, that is when this got crazy. I kept the stock (but tired) front TL calipers instead of turning them in as cores, in case the Legend calipers didn't work out for some reason, so I'll put them back on with the new pads that I purchased (when I recently realized that I was using Legend pads) and see if that makes any difference. I figured that the Legend caliper upgrade has been tried long and often enough with known good results that if I was going to replace calipers anyway, I might as well upgrade if possible, since I'm committed to this car for the long haul. I don't feel as though I've been cheap with this effort. Could I have spent more than I did? Probably. I did buy the best locally available parts that I could afford and did the job myself slowly and methodically (although it appears that I did bleed it incorrectly). I can't think of a reason why the calipers would be the problem, but again- to agree with you- I have to at least put the stock ones on to see if it makes a difference.

That's my next step. Then a clockwise bleed (starting at the drivers front). If that doesn't make a difference I'll drive to Camden NJ and leave the keys in a convenient location... Kidding.


TONY