TL Type-S or BMW330ci???
02-06-2002, 02:04 PM
#42
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"To address a couple of the previous posts, I definitely think of the M5 as a "real" sports sedan. It is both large and nimble. "
I agree but no more so than the M3 and the M5 is smaller than the TLS is it not?
I'd bet if you drove the M3 and the M5 back to back, you'd find the M3 more sporty.
I agree but no more so than the M3 and the M5 is smaller than the TLS is it not?
I'd bet if you drove the M3 and the M5 back to back, you'd find the M3 more sporty.
02-06-2002, 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by hemants
"To address a couple of the previous posts, I definitely think of the M5 as a "real" sports sedan. It is both large and nimble. "
I agree but no more so than the M3 and the M5 is smaller than the TLS is it not?
I'd bet if you drove the M3 and the M5 back to back, you'd find the M3 more sporty.
"To address a couple of the previous posts, I definitely think of the M5 as a "real" sports sedan. It is both large and nimble. "
I agree but no more so than the M3 and the M5 is smaller than the TLS is it not?
I'd bet if you drove the M3 and the M5 back to back, you'd find the M3 more sporty.
I know that some people call the 3-series coupe (and hence the current M3) a "two-door sedan," too, because of the balance of interior space.
02-06-2002, 02:12 PM
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These same "rich guys in the gym" (Jimmy maybe, watch Jimmy drive, watch Jimmy talk about the 3, Jimmy is the greatest
) probably want segregation again, the cold war in full effect, like showing big money and having big DEBT, probably drive automatic PORSCHES, and enjoy talking about things they have no clue about.....
If they laugh at 3 series BMWs, I guess us low-life Acura and Lexus owners just drive POS Hondas and Toyotas.....
Jimmy drives a 540i auto WITHOUT the sport kit, 16" wheels and all........
) probably want segregation again, the cold war in full effect, like showing big money and having big DEBT, probably drive automatic PORSCHES, and enjoy talking about things they have no clue about.....If they laugh at 3 series BMWs, I guess us low-life Acura and Lexus owners just drive POS Hondas and Toyotas.....
Jimmy drives a 540i auto WITHOUT the sport kit, 16" wheels and all........
02-06-2002, 02:17 PM
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I agree with your points. No one car can be all things to all people. The M3 is still a 'sedan'. You can only squeeze so much out of that platform. BMW does a very good job with the newest M3 (I think the preivous US versions were/are lame), but it is still a sedan. What is the point of paying (currently) over $50K for a BMW 3-Series sedan? That is just stupid. I would sooner buy a two to three year old Corvette in mint condition w/less than 25K miles and a new TL-S for a little ($3K - $6K) more than the price of new $55K BMW M3. Than I would have a 'real' sports car and a very good performing sedan. I have to ask again who in the hell would buy a brand new BMW M3 for $55K???
02-06-2002, 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by hemants
Hmmm, how does the handling of a Corvette compare to an M3?
Hmmm, how does the handling of a Corvette compare to an M3?
02-06-2002, 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by hemants
How about the relative pricing of the Z06 and the M3, are they close?
How about the relative pricing of the Z06 and the M3, are they close?
Corvette coupe : 62 400 CAD
Corvette cabrio: 69 645 CAD
Corvette Z06 : 70 780 CAD
M3 : 73 500 CAD
M3 cabrio : 83 500 CAD
1 USD = 1.58 CAD
02-06-2002, 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by hemants
How about the relative pricing of the Z06 and the M3, are they close?
How about the relative pricing of the Z06 and the M3, are they close?
02-06-2002, 03:30 PM
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I was perfectly happy with the previous M3 and it's 44k loaded price. I do think a 55k M3 is a lil too much dough for it. But then again you have 55k C32. Both cars can be had in it's less costly versions for what 30k? Is the performace increase worth 20k? These cars are also weighing MORE AND MORE. Yeah more power is cool but the REAL CHALLENGE is less weight, which no one really looks at anymore......
The 540 -6 is 20k less than a M5, is the M5 worth it? Is it really about PERFORMANCE or STATUS? A 540 -6 is more than 10 out of 10 drivers. I guess a M5 is for those that crave a lil more and are willing to spend the dough.
Which brings a good question. Would people buy a 50k TL or a 50k IS 300 if they brought similar performance gains (i.e. C32/M3)?
The 540 -6 is 20k less than a M5, is the M5 worth it? Is it really about PERFORMANCE or STATUS? A 540 -6 is more than 10 out of 10 drivers. I guess a M5 is for those that crave a lil more and are willing to spend the dough.
Which brings a good question. Would people buy a 50k TL or a 50k IS 300 if they brought similar performance gains (i.e. C32/M3)?
02-06-2002, 04:36 PM
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Good Points 1SICKLEX. I don't think anyone will spend much more than $35K or so for a front wheel drive car. If there was a performance version of the Lexus GS-Series or the Acura RL series, than maybe. No one is going to pay an extra $10K, much less $20K for an Acura TL. Acura has a niche right now that they fit into very well (performance, value, etc.).
I think that performance variations in the upper end Japanese luxury cars might do well. It wouldn't cost them a whole lot to experiment. They could do something to these cars kind of like Shelby used to do and charge an extra 15% - 20%. I don't know if it would work though. The Japanese luxury cars don't have the same pedigree that the German luxury cars do. It would however be a small gamble and would take some creative marketing.
I think that performance variations in the upper end Japanese luxury cars might do well. It wouldn't cost them a whole lot to experiment. They could do something to these cars kind of like Shelby used to do and charge an extra 15% - 20%. I don't know if it would work though. The Japanese luxury cars don't have the same pedigree that the German luxury cars do. It would however be a small gamble and would take some creative marketing.
02-06-2002, 04:41 PM
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I actually agree. I don't think too many people would buy a 50k IS 300. There is a market for people that want a GS M5 fighter, but Lexus only sold 191 GS 430s last month, and with Lexus making ANOTHER SUV, you see what they are thinking about.....
BTW, a Lexus SC 300 (coupe no convertible) and AWD IS 300 will be here in 2003, you heard it here first........
BTW, a Lexus SC 300 (coupe no convertible) and AWD IS 300 will be here in 2003, you heard it here first........
02-06-2002, 04:50 PM
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hey MB-telecom,
what's up with all ur agressive comments.. lets keep it cool.
anyways.. i don't think bmw 3 series is at all like the way u described to be.. actually, if i had money and could choose between the 3,5,or7 series bimmer.. i'd go for the m3 or 330. it's not about what a "bimmer" really is.. people have their own tastes and likes/dislikes.. as for me.. i love the 3series coupes.. and i think they look and perform the best out of all the bmws.. and i have never seen it as a "cheap" or "low-end" bmw.. it's just a nice car! if u think mercedes owners just laugh at the 3series.. why don't we pick on mercedes low-end C series? they look cheap cuz they are cheap.. it's the same deal as what u'r describing with the 3series. anyways.. a TL is cheap (but doens't look like it) for what it comes with.. so yeah.. that's the awesome part.
what's up with all ur agressive comments.. lets keep it cool.
anyways.. i don't think bmw 3 series is at all like the way u described to be.. actually, if i had money and could choose between the 3,5,or7 series bimmer.. i'd go for the m3 or 330. it's not about what a "bimmer" really is.. people have their own tastes and likes/dislikes.. as for me.. i love the 3series coupes.. and i think they look and perform the best out of all the bmws.. and i have never seen it as a "cheap" or "low-end" bmw.. it's just a nice car! if u think mercedes owners just laugh at the 3series.. why don't we pick on mercedes low-end C series? they look cheap cuz they are cheap.. it's the same deal as what u'r describing with the 3series. anyways.. a TL is cheap (but doens't look like it) for what it comes with.. so yeah.. that's the awesome part.
02-06-2002, 04:56 PM
#58
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MB.. i was talking about these comments (if i confused u.. sorry)
<<<A real BMW is a 5-Series or up. Only those that feel the need to sport a 'label' would buy a BMW 3-Series. It is a marketing ploy by BMW to help the insecure people feel better by giving them the chance to own a 'BMW'. A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.
Who gives a **** about handling? The differences in handling (unless you are on a race track) are indiscernable in normal driving conditions. Doesn't that apply for most everyone 99% of the time?
If you are more concerned wih quality and value, then buy the TL-S and save several thousand dollars. If you need a 'label' and need to tell everyone you own a 'BMW' (not a real one though), then run out and buy a BMW 3-Series.
People that own the 'real' BMW's, Mercedes and Audi's laugh at the 'wannabe's' drivng around in their little, entry-level German cars. Trust me, I hear the rich guys at my gym (who drive the big BMW's, Mercedes and Audis) laughing about it many, many times.
If you can't have the real thing, then why pretend? It is like the person who goes to New York and comes back with a Rolex. Who is he fooling on his $30K per year salary?
tea elle - If you don't like other people's comments than don't log on to this board. Why are you such a whiner? I think you need Military Basic Training. That would toughen you up a bit.>>>
<<<A real BMW is a 5-Series or up. Only those that feel the need to sport a 'label' would buy a BMW 3-Series. It is a marketing ploy by BMW to help the insecure people feel better by giving them the chance to own a 'BMW'. A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.
Who gives a **** about handling? The differences in handling (unless you are on a race track) are indiscernable in normal driving conditions. Doesn't that apply for most everyone 99% of the time?
If you are more concerned wih quality and value, then buy the TL-S and save several thousand dollars. If you need a 'label' and need to tell everyone you own a 'BMW' (not a real one though), then run out and buy a BMW 3-Series.
People that own the 'real' BMW's, Mercedes and Audi's laugh at the 'wannabe's' drivng around in their little, entry-level German cars. Trust me, I hear the rich guys at my gym (who drive the big BMW's, Mercedes and Audis) laughing about it many, many times.
If you can't have the real thing, then why pretend? It is like the person who goes to New York and comes back with a Rolex. Who is he fooling on his $30K per year salary?
tea elle - If you don't like other people's comments than don't log on to this board. Why are you such a whiner? I think you need Military Basic Training. That would toughen you up a bit.>>>
02-06-2002, 05:08 PM
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Somewhere in my post on page two I did mention 'entry-level German cars'. I think that is a 'catch all' for Mercedes as well as Audi.
You have your opinion about the 3-Series BMW and I have mine. I can live with that... I just think, as I have stated in the past, that the entry-level German cars are overpriced by thosusands of dollars when compared to the TL's, I30's, Maximas, and ES300's. Nothing wrong with different opinions is there?
Consumer Reports thinks that the Camry straight up is a better car than the Acura TL or TL-S. They make fact-based decisions as much as they can, but their decision on the Camry being better than the TL is subjective in the end. They feel similarly about the Camry whe compared to the ES300. I have my take on why some people need to have 'labels' and 'status'. Everyone is different.
If you stitched an Aramani label on Gap jeans, then many people would pay over double the price...for the pure sake of the label.
You have your opinion about the 3-Series BMW and I have mine. I can live with that... I just think, as I have stated in the past, that the entry-level German cars are overpriced by thosusands of dollars when compared to the TL's, I30's, Maximas, and ES300's. Nothing wrong with different opinions is there?
Consumer Reports thinks that the Camry straight up is a better car than the Acura TL or TL-S. They make fact-based decisions as much as they can, but their decision on the Camry being better than the TL is subjective in the end. They feel similarly about the Camry whe compared to the ES300. I have my take on why some people need to have 'labels' and 'status'. Everyone is different.
If you stitched an Aramani label on Gap jeans, then many people would pay over double the price...for the pure sake of the label.
02-06-2002, 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by MB-telecom
A real BMW is a 5-Series or up. Only those that feel the need to sport a 'label' would buy a BMW 3-Series. It is a marketing ploy by BMW to help the insecure people feel better by giving them the chance to own a 'BMW'. A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.
A real BMW is a 5-Series or up. Only those that feel the need to sport a 'label' would buy a BMW 3-Series. It is a marketing ploy by BMW to help the insecure people feel better by giving them the chance to own a 'BMW'. A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.
02-07-2002, 12:08 AM
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nobody is better than BMW in terms of having fun....
money is the only issue...coz TL-S is very tempting at its price
if u want a cheaper bimmer, get the 325ci...same sweet I6 sound and fun...but less power...only a bit less power...
money is the only issue...coz TL-S is very tempting at its price
if u want a cheaper bimmer, get the 325ci...same sweet I6 sound and fun...but less power...only a bit less power...
02-07-2002, 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by hemants
"nobody is better than BMW in terms of having fun.... "
I hate to break it to you but once you've tasted AWD in a powerful car, you'll never go back.
"nobody is better than BMW in terms of having fun.... "
I hate to break it to you but once you've tasted AWD in a powerful car, you'll never go back.
02-07-2002, 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by hemants
"nobody is better than BMW in terms of having fun.... "
I hate to break it to you but once you've tasted AWD in a powerful car, you'll never go back.
"nobody is better than BMW in terms of having fun.... "
I hate to break it to you but once you've tasted AWD in a powerful car, you'll never go back.
Oh, and I just saw your wet-vs-dry comment. With that twist, fully agreed, but it rains something like twice a year in Austin!
02-07-2002, 02:18 PM
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guys...u can't define fun by just look at the power...
BMW didn't need AWD or power to make itself famous...it's all about balance...
remember the 2002 and 320i back into 70s...they were not powerful at all...but fun to drive...I6 in the 80s...not too much power either...but the sweet sound is already screams better than the today's nissan VQ6...
and i agree with MB...only M3 or 5 series or 7 series are the real BMW...
the 3 series are not build in germany anymore...south africa...cheap plastics...while M3 shares the same interior material with 5 and 7...
ppl have voted the 5-series is one of the best all around sedans in the world for more than 12 yrs...
BMW didn't need AWD or power to make itself famous...it's all about balance...
remember the 2002 and 320i back into 70s...they were not powerful at all...but fun to drive...I6 in the 80s...not too much power either...but the sweet sound is already screams better than the today's nissan VQ6...
and i agree with MB...only M3 or 5 series or 7 series are the real BMW...
the 3 series are not build in germany anymore...south africa...cheap plastics...while M3 shares the same interior material with 5 and 7...
ppl have voted the 5-series is one of the best all around sedans in the world for more than 12 yrs...
02-07-2002, 02:30 PM
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If the 3-series isn't a "real BMW" or a "real sport sedan," what does that say about the TL-S?!
The 328i/330i has consistently beaten out the TL-P/TL-S (respectively) in every single car comparo but one (the Edmunds.com comparison in which the TL-S won that's constantly used here as validation of the TL-S)!
If the 3-series is a joke, than pretty much every other $30-40K car must be a joke, too, I guess...
Note that sarcasm is VERY much intended in this message...
The 328i/330i has consistently beaten out the TL-P/TL-S (respectively) in every single car comparo but one (the Edmunds.com comparison in which the TL-S won that's constantly used here as validation of the TL-S)!
If the 3-series is a joke, than pretty much every other $30-40K car must be a joke, too, I guess...
Note that sarcasm is VERY much intended in this message...
02-07-2002, 02:36 PM
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My main argument against the BMW 3-Series is that it is overpriced by several thousand dollars as compared to other 'near-luxury sedans' (if that it what we can call it...). I just don't think it is a good value. I think it does have that pedigree that breeds some of its 'label' appeal. Some say because of the BMW 3-Series' handling/performance that makes it worth several thousand dollars more than the Japanese competition. To each their own.
02-07-2002, 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by SCWells72
If the 3-series isn't a "real BMW" or a "real sport sedan," what does that say about the TL-S?!
The 328i/330i has consistently beaten out the TL-P/TL-S (respectively) in every single car comparo but one (the Edmunds.com comparison in which the TL-S won that's constantly used here as validation of the TL-S)!
If the 3-series is a joke, than pretty much every other $30-40K car must be a joke, too, I guess...
Note that sarcasm is VERY much intended in this message...
If the 3-series isn't a "real BMW" or a "real sport sedan," what does that say about the TL-S?!
The 328i/330i has consistently beaten out the TL-P/TL-S (respectively) in every single car comparo but one (the Edmunds.com comparison in which the TL-S won that's constantly used here as validation of the TL-S)!
If the 3-series is a joke, than pretty much every other $30-40K car must be a joke, too, I guess...
Note that sarcasm is VERY much intended in this message...
u wouldn't want a 3 if u have owned a 5...
02-07-2002, 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by samkws
i didn't say the 3 series is a BAD car...it's still a BMW...but i would say it is a genetic modified BMW...but i think it is overpriced with the material used in the car...even the 3000 dollar sport package doesn't come with the M quality parts...
u wouldn't want a 3 if u have owned a 5...
i didn't say the 3 series is a BAD car...it's still a BMW...but i would say it is a genetic modified BMW...but i think it is overpriced with the material used in the car...even the 3000 dollar sport package doesn't come with the M quality parts...
u wouldn't want a 3 if u have owned a 5...
Having said that, I agree that the 3-series is quite expensive for what you get, especially if you option it out. Most of the car comparisons have taken into account relative value, though, and still put the 3-series on the top. I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, but it's definitely consistent.
And I actually know several people through the BMW clubs who've traded their 5-series (530s and 540s) for the current //M3 because of its more nimble handling. They're the kinds of people who don't need the full back seat room.
I personally have a GS430, very similar to the 540i, and I thought about doing the same thing at one point.
02-07-2002, 04:58 PM
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Hmmm, as the owner of both a 5 and a 3 I can say MB-Telecom really has no idea what he is talking about.
A 3 series is a much more capable car than most people think. If you can't tell the difference in handling at normal speeds than you don't pay too much attention. If you took a 323i and ES300 on a track the 323i would just WALK away in the corners. while the ES plowed its way to the around the track. I have seen lightly modified 323i's do very well at 10/10ths at track events. The lack of power only matters if the driver is very slow in the corners. The chassis dynamics are top notch and that is why it keeps winning all these comparison tests in the magazines.
I had a friend just buy a used E30 M3. He also has a 635i race car. I asked him if it will take a while to get used to the handling of the M3 on the track. He just looked at me and said, "It's a BMW and feels like every other BMW."
The worst thing about a BMW is that they are so forgiving and easy to drive fast people think they are better drivers than they really are.
I will give you one thing. BMW's are not the best value but for a car enthusiast that is not the most important factor in a purchase.
Kevin
'91 M5 (susp, chip, etc. my 4000lb track beast)
'00 323i Touring (bought it for my wife so I could always be driving a Bimmer)
A 3 series is a much more capable car than most people think. If you can't tell the difference in handling at normal speeds than you don't pay too much attention. If you took a 323i and ES300 on a track the 323i would just WALK away in the corners. while the ES plowed its way to the around the track. I have seen lightly modified 323i's do very well at 10/10ths at track events. The lack of power only matters if the driver is very slow in the corners. The chassis dynamics are top notch and that is why it keeps winning all these comparison tests in the magazines.
I had a friend just buy a used E30 M3. He also has a 635i race car. I asked him if it will take a while to get used to the handling of the M3 on the track. He just looked at me and said, "It's a BMW and feels like every other BMW."
The worst thing about a BMW is that they are so forgiving and easy to drive fast people think they are better drivers than they really are.
I will give you one thing. BMW's are not the best value but for a car enthusiast that is not the most important factor in a purchase.
Kevin
'91 M5 (susp, chip, etc. my 4000lb track beast)
'00 323i Touring (bought it for my wife so I could always be driving a Bimmer)
02-07-2002, 05:05 PM
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When my wife's 330 conv. went in for an oil change the other day, I was given a 2001 540i as a loaner, and I must say that the 330 felt more confident in cornering than the 540. Granted the 540 was faster but it's size made it seem less nimble, and considering my wife's is a convertible, even with less structural rigidity, it just hugs corners at 70mph, whereas the 540 made me want to tap the brakes a bit.
02-07-2002, 06:24 PM
#78
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Originally posted by MB-telecom
A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.
A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.
I totally love the 3-series, especially the 330ci manual, I would opt to drive it any day over the TLS. I also find the acceleration and power delivery to be superb, just like the TLS.
However, I am not so sure if I want to own one...because of the high ownership costs. I'm very happy with my TLS, I think its a damn good car.
02-07-2002, 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by 91M5
Hmmm, as the owner of both a 5 and a 3 I can say MB-Telecom really has no idea what he is talking about.
A 3 series is a much more capable car than most people think. If you can't tell the difference in handling at normal speeds than you don't pay too much attention. If you took a 323i and ES300 on a track the 323i would just WALK away in the corners. while the ES plowed its way to the around the track. I have seen lightly modified 323i's do very well at 10/10ths at track events. The lack of power only matters if the driver is very slow in the corners. The chassis dynamics are top notch and that is why it keeps winning all these comparison tests in the magazines.
I had a friend just buy a used E30 M3. He also has a 635i race car. I asked him if it will take a while to get used to the handling of the M3 on the track. He just looked at me and said, "It's a BMW and feels like every other BMW."
The worst thing about a BMW is that they are so forgiving and easy to drive fast people think they are better drivers than they really are.
I will give you one thing. BMW's are not the best value but for a car enthusiast that is not the most important factor in a purchase.
Kevin
'91 M5 (susp, chip, etc. my 4000lb track beast)
'00 323i Touring (bought it for my wife so I could always be driving a Bimmer)
Hmmm, as the owner of both a 5 and a 3 I can say MB-Telecom really has no idea what he is talking about.
A 3 series is a much more capable car than most people think. If you can't tell the difference in handling at normal speeds than you don't pay too much attention. If you took a 323i and ES300 on a track the 323i would just WALK away in the corners. while the ES plowed its way to the around the track. I have seen lightly modified 323i's do very well at 10/10ths at track events. The lack of power only matters if the driver is very slow in the corners. The chassis dynamics are top notch and that is why it keeps winning all these comparison tests in the magazines.
I had a friend just buy a used E30 M3. He also has a 635i race car. I asked him if it will take a while to get used to the handling of the M3 on the track. He just looked at me and said, "It's a BMW and feels like every other BMW."
The worst thing about a BMW is that they are so forgiving and easy to drive fast people think they are better drivers than they really are.
I will give you one thing. BMW's are not the best value but for a car enthusiast that is not the most important factor in a purchase.
Kevin
'91 M5 (susp, chip, etc. my 4000lb track beast)
'00 323i Touring (bought it for my wife so I could always be driving a Bimmer)
glad to see they are still in gd shape...
i do agree with the easy to drive issue...BMW have rated as the highest safety in crash test...so ppl think they are very safe to drive fast...and guess what...accidents...the insurance for BMW is very expensive in Toronto...
also i can't wait for the reborn of the 6 series!!
Wow!