Rukawa005

hey guys..
i will be purchasing a new car in the upcoming months. i have been stuck on deciding between the 330ci and the TL type S. though they are different cars.. they are both awesome ones. i know a lot about the TL because my uncle has one and i've done much research. all it comes down to really is that the 330ci is about 7k or 8k more than the TL-S with equal luxury items. and plus i've noticed that the aftermarket products for the 330ci costs much more than those for the TL, and not to mention maintaining the car. however, i do like the looks of the 330 as well as its sportiness (oh, and it's a bimmer). i know of course that if only judging on value alone, the TL would win. anyways, those with TL Type-S.. are u satisfied with your car?? what do u like about it or dislike about it? thanks guys!!!

Greymage

There's a good survey of entry level luxury sedans at:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...8/article.html

They basically say the BMW is the most fun to drive, though a little small and overpriced, TL-S is best value.

I am happy with my TL-S so far (had it a week) - it is fun to drive when I want to have fun, but I can just as easily stick the cruise control on when I just want to get somewhere. The only thing I regret is that it doesn't come in bright red like the BMW in the pictures at Edmund's review.

I didn't even bother looking at any BMWs - I have a bad image of BMW drivers because (here at least) they seem to be particularly obnoxious drivers. But then again my little brother got a new one last year and he's not exactly an aggressive driver, so your mileage may vary. Also, I have heard bad things about BMW reliability and service.

Ajay_RENAMED

I'm trading my 2002 TLS in for a 2002 330CI - I like the Acura but its not what I thought it would be. The power is nice and the engine is great, you do get a lot for the money. I do not think the TL handles that great and I think it rides too hard for its handling capabilities. The interior of the car is my fav part, its one of the nicest interiors I have ever seen. The BMW is so much more of a drivers car - everything about it feels perfect. I think they are two very different cars and you really cant go wrong with either choice, its just a matter of taste and what you want from your car.

InspireS

Just to let you know I had the same dilemma, it was between the 330ci and the TL-S. In the end the TL-S was a better buy for me. I mean the 330ci is a great car, and I love the looks, but it seems that everything is an option on that car, and when you add it all up it's not really all that worth it.

For me, the TL-S is much roomier, and I've always preferred a sedan over a coupe.

Another factor is that I live in Vancouver, and the BMW 3-series are like taxis here, there are so many around, and the age span driving that car is any where between 16 and 45.

In the end, the final decision is up to you, so my suggestion is go for a few more test drives and then make your decision. Don't rush yourself.

InspireS

PAW

Rukawa005
First I don't own a TL, yet. I have driven a TL and TL Type S. I also had a TL and a CL Type S as loaners. I do own a '91 Acura Legend with 150K miles. It's been the best car I've owned. If the TL is 3/4 of the car the Legend is, I'll be a very happy camper. It's reliable, well built, roomy and powerful. It can still climb the Colorado mountain passes at 80 mph. Now it needs to be in 3rd and 4th gear instead of 4th and 5th gear but it'll still do it. A little of my biography. I'm 42 married with 2 kids and tend to keep cars for about 10 years. On to the non-technical comparsion. You've already meantioned sportiness and price. Other things to consider are FWD verses RWD. Living in Colorado and traveling to the mountains, I value FWD. If you've got good snow tires or at least all season radials, you're good to go. If the weather is such that FWD and snow tires don't work, you should stay put because it's really bad. Been there, done that! I think the BMW has traction control but I don't know it's effectiveness. The BMW has a smaller rear seat and trunk. Having 2 kids, you can never have enough space. My son is the oldest at 7 year old. So when I get rid of the TL, he'll be 17 and probably 6 foot, 150 lbs. The rear seat space will be important then. To sum it up. The TL is a better value $ wise, is larger, is FWD, Acura has a good track record with me. The BMW is sportier, more prestige, better interior materials. If I were to buy a BMW, it would have to be a 5 series. But, that's mid $40K!

ZodiakTL

i also considered getting a 3 series, but it's just too cramped for me. u cant sit back and cruise comfortably, cuz ur legs have nowhere to go. especially the right foot. and the elbow room is just a bit too short, and thats where acura has just a little bit more, oh and i'm an average 5'11". i also found that passengers in my TL-S dont complain about the legroom in the rear, whereas in my friends bimmer they almost always do. in terms of driving feeling , i havnt been in nething that compares to the bmw though, its just great, but i got very used to the TL and the TL-S after that, and with the suspension mods, i can outhandle at least the '00 323 auto. i havnt seriously gone up against a 330 with sports package, but i'm sure handling results will be pretty similiar, although i'm sure it feels better in the bimmer. and since i assume ur getting an auto, or u'd be thinking about getting the 03 CL 6speed, i think fwd is the way to go for regular driving, especially if u get snow where u are (didnt check where u were from) and add to that 7-8k, i'd rather spend (and did ) the money on audio equipment for the car and maybe some perf mods. like u said, bimmer aftermarket is much more expensive.

SCWells72

Interesting that you say that. My wife drives a Z3, but mainly because she loves the retro styling and feel of the car. However, I've found the TL-S/CL-S drivers around Austin to be MUCH more obnoxious than the Bimmer drivers, always trying to get me to race whether I'm in my GS430 or my wife's Z3. I've only had one BMW 540i driver try to coax me into a race against my GS430, but the TL-S/CL-S drivers are as prevelant as the 'Stang/Z28/Firebird drivers.

I will admit that the BMW service here really stinks! It's getting much better now that they've hired a service manager from Mercedes, but we're still not entirely happy with it.

Now, to the actual question...Rukawa005, I owned a TL (not -S, but I drove the CL-S/TL-S numerous times trying to decide what to trade my TL for) for a year and I have a 3-series now (the Z3), and I have to say that the fun-to-drive factor of the 3-series is AMAZING! The TL family of cars simply doesn't compare. When I first drove the CL-S the dealer was trying to convince me that Acura had engineered a FWD car that handled as well as a RWD car. I took that to the test with him in the car and took a tight curve at about 70mph. The car felt like it was going to fly off of the road whereas our Z3 sticks to that turn like glue! It's worth noting that the CL-S DID take the turn, but it was scary as heck and not the driving experience I'd want every day. That one test drive was part of the reason I traded my TL against my GS4...a well-balanced RWD/front-engine car just handles SO MUCH BETTER than even the current FWD marvels that Acura's turning out (meaning I applaud what Acura's done for FWD handling).

So out of curiosity, why aren't you comparing the TL-S to the 330i sedan instead of the 330ci coupe? or the CL-S to the 330ci?

TommiGSR

iTrader: (1)

i'd get the TL-S...because most of my friends have bimmers...i'm not that all impressed...high maintenance and theirs is always in the shop for some kind of messed up reason...something always seems to not work or break down.

hemants

Depends if you want a highway cruiser or a twisty road zipmobile.

The TLS is a great highway cruiser and VERY FAST.

However, if you don't need the size and back seat room then the choice is clear.

BMW? No way, get the Audi A4 - no contest.

Greymage

I don't mind racing, whatever floats your boat, I was thinking more of weaving in and out of traffic, cutting people off, etc.

Am I a post whore now?

SCWells72

Well, in a sense that's what I'm talking about. I get annoyed when I'm driving down the highway and some guy pulls up next me, rides beside me, guns it for a mile, slows down, rides beside me, slows down, guns it past me, and keeps doing the same thing trying to get me into a race. The guys I see doing that are in either muscle cars (Mustangs, Z28s, Firebirds) or TL-S/CL-Ses...not much else.

1SICKLEX

After driving both you should be able to EASILY tell which one is best for you. They are different beasts to me.

Greymage

Is that what they call taunting? I haven't seen that, but then my last car was just a Maxima. I'm surprised you get that in your GS 430, I always thought they were slow until I started looking at this site and reading about people racing.

Robbdogg

Dude, 1chickennex, you still ain't banned yet? Talking about beasts is criterion for banishment.

BTW, I like both cars, but I liked the fact I got more for my money with my TL-S.

SCWells72

Yeah, taunting, goading, whatever...trying to get me to act like an idiot. Actually I'm surprised at how often I get that in my GS430 myself, but it happens. It's less of a stealth mobile than you'd think. Just about anytime someone new sees the car they go "hey, that thing's FAST, isn't it." Maybe it's successful marketing on Lexus' part, maybe it's just that people see GS4s going fast on the highway. I don't know, but I definitely get the challenges. It may also be in part because of the L-Tuned suspension work I've done...gives the car a much more aggressive stance...looks ready to run!

Greymage

According to Consumer Reports, predicted reliability for the BMW 3-series, Lexus IS300, and Chrysler 300M are all about 10% above average. ( I always thought Lexi were much better and Chryslers much worse). The TL is about 50% above average. Number one is the I35 at about 75% above average. Oldsmobile Aurora at the bottom around 75% below average. This is in the "upscale cars" segment.

For some reason the Infiniti G20 is in the "family car" segment with 80% above average, Maxima is only at 50% (even with Accord). This makes me even more confused, I thought the I35 and the Maxima were almost identical. Hyundai Sonata at bottom, about 45% below average.

In the "luxury car" segment the Lexus GS, LS and Acura RL seem about tied at 50% above average.Cadillac Seville at the bottom with 75% below average.

I can't believe people still buy Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles with this kind of record - they're pretty close to the bottom all the time.

tea elle

Evidently, you went wrong. This is a pretty costly change of heart.

tea elle

C'mon SCWells...we all know you'd never act like an idiot!

vandy786

I'm sorry to hear that. A simple test drive may have prevented this costly solution to your problem. Hope it all works out.

tea elle

Alright, now that I've quoted and commented on a couple of other posts (just for fun), as a 5th time Acura owner (biased) here's my take on it.

1. The bimmer is much smaller inside, and therefore less practical.

2. The bimmer is likely to have far more problems in the long run, so unless you're leasing that should be a consideration.

3. BMW automobiles are generally more expensive than they should be. The 330 is no exception. In that price range I would look at Mercedes and Lexus as the only cars worth considering if I were buying instead of leasing. If you're leasing, and you have the money, who cares about long-term reliability?

And, I totally love my TL-S. It is so much fun to drive, such a great value, ergonomically exceptional, roomy enough for 4 people, and nothing major ever goes wrong with Hondas.

SCWells72

Yep...taunting, goading, etc., by TL-S owners...that's exactly what I was talking about! Thanks for proving my point.

Regarding (1), some people actually prefer smaller cars or weigh performance/handling over practicality when making a purchasing decision. I personally can't imagine having a two-seater as my only car, but obviously people make that choice. Of course, you qualified "biased," so that's completely cool!

Regarding (2), people keep saying this while at the same time I read so much about tranny problems, squeaks, rattles, etc., in TL-Ses. BMWs aren't THAT unreliable, people! I know people (myself included) that have been driving BMWs relatively problem-free for years! I had as many problems in one year of driving my TL than I've had in almost three years with my Z3.

Regarding (3), true...with qualifications. Acura gives a LOT of bang for the buck, but not without cutting corners. I'm not saying that a fully-loaded 330i is worth $45K--it's not--but the overall quality of materials and set of available equipment is far superior to what Acura offers (with the exception of the navigation system). Can you get rear park assist, rear heated seats, full leather, real wood, bi-level HIDs, RWD, manual tranny, etc., on the TL-S? No.

Regarding "nothing major ever goes wrong with Hondas," how do you reconcile the number of tranny replacements on the TL-S with this statement? I consider tranny failure pretty major!

Mr Hyde

So those are your exepriences with your BMW, mine with my TL-S are that I have had no major rattles and no tranny problems. Thats comforting, but who cares???? The experiences of a few are not the experinces of the masses, and overall the TL has a better reliability rating than the 3 series. I am sure you have heard of the Beemer fire issue right?? I think I'll take the Acura tranny issue over it anyday.

Again thats nice and all but you speak as if every BMW 3 comes with all those options when the majority dont! Every TL-S on the road has the same equipment except for the Navi. The options are at such a premium that comparitively equipped to as close as you can get the TL-S that you are talking about a 8k difference 42k vs 34k. Comparatively equipped for $8000 less the cutting corners of leather on the seating surfaces only ,etc on the TL-S seem like pluses to me.

Also you neglected to mention whats standard??? Leatherette, non-memory, manually adjusted, non-heated seats/(where did heated rear seats come from????? thats news to me)/ plastic titanium trim/halogens not HID's/non-metallic paint/no moonroof/non autodimming rear view, non tilting in reverse side view, no 6 in dash cd are standard. All at a price still higher than the TL-S including navi for a smaller car ~$34,000. Sorry but the higher quality of the fit and finish of the Non-metallic, leatherette manual, non-heated seats, etc, etc, stripper BMW at a similar cost doesnt strike me in any way shape or form. Add in the options to make them similarly equipped and the extra you get for the 8k doesnt strike me either.

tea elle

I'm trying really hard not to conclude that you are basically a jerk, SC. Sometimes you seem pretty level-headed and then you pull this crap. I'm referring to the way you tear apart people's posts. The guy who posted this thread wanted to know what we think, so I told him what I think he should consider about the bimmer in making his decision. What is your problem with that?

The tranni problem seems to be an isolated thing, and there have been reports on here that it was a select few units that were part of the original Type-Ss from last March, and that was it. Other than that, I can't think of anything other than squeaks and a few rattles, but those things happen on most cars, and have all been easily fixed by the dealers. Face it, this car is very, very reliable. You're doing this guy a dis-service by slamming Acura the way you do.

The tranny thing is not an ongoing, or widespread problem, but I'm beginning to think YOU are!

SCWells72

I agree. There are lemons in any make/model and perfect cars as well. Studies do show that Acura/Honda and Lexus/Toyota have better reliability than BMW. I was merely trying to refute the claim that all BMWs break down constantly and that all Acuras/Hondas are 100% reliable.

Again, reasonable points except that one major difference between the 3-series and the TL that can't be reconciled easily is the availability of RWD, manual tranny, etc., that has wooed so many people. I'll say it again, Acura has the bang/buck ratio nailed, but for people who are going for pure performance/handling, Acura doesn't have it short of the NSX. Frankly it's impossible to outfit the two cars the same way for an apples-to-apples comparison because they're dramatically different cars, one of which is dedicated in its purpose of being a sports car and the other which is quick, roomy, and comfortable and the "quick" part makes people think it's a sports car.

Also, I don't understand why people talk about the differences between options and standard equipment. I actually saw someone say in the G35 thread the other day that the TL was a better car simply because it had one option and the G35 had several options packages. That's SO ridiculous.

Oh yeah, heated rear seats are available on the A4, not the 3-series...my bad. Good catch.

SCWells72

Wow! I'm sorry to hear you say that, because in general (unless provoked) I do try to remain level-headed. Part of the sentiment in that post was in direct response to your "C'mon SCWells...we all know you'd never act like an idiot!" post which was pretty uncalled for in my opinion. The rest of the post was trying to show the other side of the conversation about BMW vs. Acura in the reliability department, no more than what you've claimed to have been doing.

If the tranny problem isn't as widespead as I've inferred it to be, great! However, that doesn't change the fact that I had many squeaks, rattles, and mechanical issues with my 2000 TL which concurred directly with many of the posts I'd seen on this site.

It's just frustrating to see a small contention of people wearing Acura blinders here. I understand that you're going to get a certain bias on an Acura forum the same way you would on a Lexus forum or a BMW forum (actually, MUCH less so than on a BMW forum!), but as a previous Acura owner and a current Lexus and BMW owner, I try to give a wide perspective on some of the car vs. car conversations in which I have personal experience.

Sorry to offend you. Literally no offense intended, except in response to the one comment you made about "acting like an idiot." Just trying to be genuinely helpful...

Mr Hyde

Easy because the comparisons are being made to the majority of the cars on the road. The majority of the 3's arent optioned up like this. Comparatively equipped theres an $8000 difference. Of course you get RWD also, but at over an $8000.00 to get the heated power memory leather seats, moonroof, metallic paint, etc how can you complain about the quality found in the TL?? If the differential was say 2k between the two, I'd complain about cost cutting, but at $8k Im thinking more price gouging by others than cost cutting by Acura.

As far as squeels and rattles go, if you are implying the Beemers are squeek free, we both know better than to believe that. I have ridden in many. A few of who's computers gave us info repeatedly on erroneous low coolant warnings, dead moonroofs, etc which came back after trips to the dealer. Also my Euro S70 has worse creaks and squeeks than my TL-S ever could.

As you stated this is an Acura board, so goo dluck having us trade in our Acura Blinders for BMW blinders, etc.

1SICKLEX

Uhhh, like I said, 2 different beasts, other than price (barely) they have NOTHING in common.....

daddio

I've read all the wonderful (amusing at times) commentary regarding the competition between the 330 and TL-S, noting that both cars are fantastic vehicles. Let the argument rest knowing that you are comparing apples with oranges... the 330 is a great car for the single or no kid individual who is willing to spend the extra for a RWD, less amenities, a sportier ride yet stiffer ride, who doesn't really need the extra leg room. While the TL-S has a more touring ride, yet powerful enough to keep you happy, while giving you an untoppable bargain.

They are both great cars; any driving enthusiast will agree. It is similar to the comparison of a Camry with an Accord...It just depends on what you like better (although camry and accords are more comparable).

I do have to say that I disagree with the majority of car magazines that usually find Beemers the winners in their comparison test...I truly believe they are German biased...DOES ANY ONE AGREE WITH ME ON THAT?

I'm picking up my NBE TL-S w/Navi, OEM Kit and Spoiler, TOMORROW...EXTREMELY EXCITED...CAN"T WAIT...

Closer

I bought my TLS same time my friend bought his 330is.

Service/Repair:
TLS- window recall, passanger side oh **** handle broke, sunroof squeak, seat belt squeak.
330- overheat, overheat with new part, power door locks.

Performance:
TLS- comptech springs and sways makes for a nice rice. still big
and tires still suck.
330- obvious handling winner even with the springs and sways on the TLS.

Sound:
TLS- wind noise, occasional interior rattle or buzz. engine sounds
ok.
330- road noise, occasional interior rattle in dash. much less often
than TLS. very nice engine sound.

Acceleration:
TLS- great high reving feeling, strong in vtec. needs much more
power and torque for adequete throttle response thanks to slow
automatic shifts. would be much better with manual. Can drink
a latte, talk on the phone, hold onto gfs hand to keep her from
panicing and still keep even with 330.
330- much better mid range torque, but revs end fast. manual is
a clear winner for all around throttle response.

Comfort:
TLS- hauls 5 people (2 average men, 1 small man and 2 small
women) in relative comfort. huge trunk fits almost anything.
no folding rear seats though. stereo is acceptable. could be
more full sounding for being a big car.
330- hauls 4 people fairly uncomfortably. Sitting behind the 6
footer is punishment. no feet room. stereo is very full sounding
and over all impressive. same time sounds like 2 dozen speakers
pointing in every direction but where a stereo should point.

Perception:
TLS- people say, oh nice car. some ask 'how is it?' with interest
in the car. rich people usually say things like 'oh.'.
330- people say, oh wow nice car. then proceed to treat you
like youre rich. rich people usually say things like 'oh I had one
of those years ago. I have a 540 now'.

Other notables:
TLS- easy to mod and make vastly different than other TL models.
slow ass butt warmers with hot seating too hot and low setting
being worthless. I have 3 dealerships to choose from, with all
of them being of average to high quality. rear seat passengers
complain of getting sea sick.
330- looks like 328, 325, 323 even with mods. expensive with
limited mods. super fast butt warmers with lower back heating.
Only 1 local dealer with very haughty service. rear seat
passengers complain of lack of air and weird heating patterns
in the car.


Price:
TLS- TLS + wheels + mods + bodykit + big screen tv = 330
330- average price of $40,000.

I'm happy with my purchase and he's happy with his. We both
love to rag on each others cars for their faults, but both do like
each others cars. anyhow, that's just a little story of my TLS
and his 330.

Davidas

The best decision to make : Go test drive both on the same day.
Try to figure out is the 330ci worth the extra 8K $?

I own a TL-S, and let me tell you the service at Acura is exceptional. My friend own a 323ci. He's having a lot of problem with his car, and he told me the service is very bad. He won't buy another bimmer again....

Just my little story...

Greymage

I don't know why people going for pure performance/handling would look at either the TL-S or 330 (or any other "sports" sedan for that matter) rather than a nice two door sports car. Even the little RSX (non-S) I had as a loaner before my TL-S arrived was more fun to drive than the TL-S; little cars are just more agile.

AC

Man just get the Toyota Matrix!

Rukawa005

hey thanks a lot for all the input guys.. it's really letting me think more clearly in what i want to get. all in all, what i really want is bmw's handling and power and looks, and the TL's long term reliability. i guess i must sacrifice one way or another. yeah i'm thinking about test driving the cars out..

thanks guys!!

hemants

"what i really want is bmw's handling and power and looks, and the TL's long term reliability"

Get the Lexus IS300, Subaru WRX or wait for the Infiniti G35.

And once again, do NOT buy the BMW without test driving the Audi A4.

bloo_tls02

It's apples vs. oranges. There is a big difference in price if you want a 330ci fully loaded. I also heard that the BMW's tend to sit in the shop alot. Plus there is not much haggling power when you're dealing w/ the BMW folks.
I think my TL-S was a great buy for the money and havent had any complaints so far.

Turboara

exactly,
if you don't need the back seat, and are really interested in rear wheel drive high performance driving, the TLS and 330 should not even be on your menu. Get yourself a new corvette, and leave the lame "sport sedans" in the dust.

MB-telecom

A real BMW is a 5-Series or up. Only those that feel the need to sport a 'label' would buy a BMW 3-Series. It is a marketing ploy by BMW to help the insecure people feel better by giving them the chance to own a 'BMW'. A real BMW fan would never own a 3-Series.

Who gives a **** about handling? The differences in handling (unless you are on a race track) are indiscernable in normal driving conditions. Doesn't that apply for most everyone 99% of the time?

If you are more concerned wih quality and value, then buy the TL-S and save several thousand dollars. If you need a 'label' and need to tell everyone you own a 'BMW' (not a real one though), then run out and buy a BMW 3-Series.

People that own the 'real' BMW's, Mercedes and Audi's laugh at the 'wannabe's' drivng around in their little, entry-level German cars. Trust me, I hear the rich guys at my gym (who drive the big BMW's, Mercedes and Audis) laughing about it many, many times.

If you can't have the real thing, then why pretend? It is like the person who goes to New York and comes back with a Rolex. Who is he fooling on his $30K per year salary?

tea elle - If you don't like other people's comments than don't log on to this board. Why are you such a whiner? I think you need Military Basic Training. That would toughen you up a bit.

AC

OMG! This has got to be one of the most lobsided comments I've heard on this forum...actually it isn't.
I disagree, the 3 series is not a wannabe. It's like saying I drive an Acura cuz I couldn't quite afford a Lexus...c'mon.

Yes handling is very important to many people and everyday driving to you may not be the same to me or someone else.

The 330Ci power wise is about the same as TLS, handling the 330Ci is much better overall, period.

Despite what people say here, I don't know any 330's that "go to the shop all the time". All cars will have some problems as the TL/TLS is not flawless either.

If you can caugh up the $8K hands down get the 330Ci and you will understand why most of us BMW owners "overpay" for our vehicles.

hemants

Ummm, one could argue that ONLY the 3 series sedans are true sports sedans.

The rich guys at the gym are only concerned with how much money they spent, not on the performance of their car.

No matter what you put into a large car, it will never be as nimble as a smaller one - it's simple physics.

I also disagree that the TLS and the 330 will drive the same under normal driving conditions. The TLS is a nose heavy front wheel drive sedan whereas the 330 is a RWD 50/50 distributed sedan.

The BMW will drive better period. But it's not worth the extra money IMO, particularly when you start to add options and factor in the long term cost of ownership which can be expensive and frustrating.

P.S. I have both the TLS and an A4 - two completely different beasts. The TLS is a better highway car, but the A4 is definately more fun in and around the city and twisty roads.

DJ Iceman

To address a couple of the previous posts, I definitely think of the M5 as a "real" sports sedan. It is both large and nimble.