Changed the oil over the weekend. First time in my life using a synthetic oil, went with Penzoil 5/20 synthetic. How many miles can I go before changing the oil?

 

It is not a matter of 'driving more miles' on synthetic vs. regular motor oil. Recent data suggests (I am still looking for the link that shows this) that changing your oil every 3K miles does not increase engine longevity any more than changing the oil every 5K miles or by following the manufactuer's suggested intervals. The whole idea behind synthetic oil is that it is more heat resistant and has more effective lubricant properties (even this statment is inconclusive).

The airline industry has been using synthetic oil in airplanes for something like over 30 years.

The idea behind changing your oil more frequently is that the longer ther oil is in your engine (miles wise, not just time) than the more you will get 'grit' from the break down of the engine. The more 'grit' you have in the engine the more you will build up heat. The 'grit' floating around in the engine will also act as an abrasive and only compound the problem of increased engine wear. Some will insist that you change your oil every 3K miles regardless. For other reasons (this post is getting to long already) some suggesst you change your oil every 3K miles and your filter only every 6K miles.

To err on the safe side (or to satisfy yourself) change your oil every 3K miles. This will only cost you another $200 - $300 for the first 100K miles your car logs. Cheap insurance though right?

 

I have always changed my oil at 3,000 miles. But I could of sworn here a while back I saw people posting that they change their oil every 7,500 miles because they are using synthetic.

Thanks for the info you have profided. I do believe I'll stick with the 3,000.

 

it wouldn't be too bad if u change it less often say like 4k..changing too often only waste money and cause some serious pollution...

 

1) It is not an issue of grit at reasonable change intervals (5000-7500 miles. The oil filter effectively removes wear particles int eh range that can cause harm 10-12 microns or bigger). Smaller particles cause no wear.
2) The best mineral oils (Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc.) can easily go 5000 miles in a modern engine, due to the precise tolerances, fuel metering, and additive packages. 3000 miles is cheap insurance, but is wasteful and continues our Nation's dependence on foreign oil
3) A good synoil, with olefin or esters, can go 7500 miles or more easily. This is due to its monomolecular design (mineral oil's lighter factions can burn off, leaving a thick oil), shear resistance (reduces breakdown), high natural detergent properties, superior heat transfer characteristics, zero sulfur (which reduces oxidation and the formation of corrosive sulfuric acid), and generally superior additive package, including a high TBN (an indice of resistance to acid formation). Good ones: Neo, Motul, Mobil 1, Valvoline, Pennzoil, perhaps Amsoil, if they still use olefins/diesters.
4) I use the best I know of, Redline, because:
a) esters have the best chemical properties
b) Red Line is Acura's choice in racing
c) I have used it for many years, performed many oil analyses in many cars, always passes with ease

I change at 7500, it could easily go 12000, but then you risk oil filter media fracturing, which happens a lot. I am too lazy to do oil analysis all the time, which also gets pricey, but is a must for extended oil drains. I drive hard, and my auto connections get me oil at wholesale, so it is just as easy to do it at 7500 and forget it. Plus, Red Line does not deplete oil reserves, unlike Mobil 1 and all the rest.
d) It has a TBN of 12

If I did not use Red Line, I would use Mobil 1 and change every 7500 miles.

 

Definitely Mobil1 or Redline as top contenders. I have Mobil1 in everything I own and run 7500 mile intervals. Alot of my more serious road racing friends religously use Redline. I swear by all of their other fluids but have just never had a reason to change from Mobil1 with the engine oil. Make sure and don't skimp on good filter though!

 

Look below and you will see my mileage... That's been done with Mobil 1 every 5K with a filter. I have yet to see the oil level on my dipstick drop AT ALL between changes. So far so good.

 

so what kind of filter would ya'll recommend???

 

Roadrage - changing oil more frequently continues our Nation's dependence on foriegn oil? Are you joking? That is ridicluous! The combustion engine alone is the reason for our dependence on foreign oil! The lobby's for the oil comanies WILL NEVER give up until the price of oil is sky high or until we run out. Your statement about oil dependecy is very false. That dependency is political in nature.

Redline is (may) be the best because Acura Racing uses it? Funny! That has to do with sponsership! That doesn't mean Redline is better than Mobil1 or vice versa. That would take a 20 year study to determine which one is better and regardless the difference will be negligible. It comes down to business dealings. That is why Acura Racing chooses Redline. Come on... don't be so naive!

Any grit at all regardless of size will generate and build up heat. Now factor friction into the equation. Heat adds wear and tear to the engine and all of it components. Go ahead and change your every 7500 miles. That is purely up to you...

 

Hey MB-telecom:

I'm confused (more than usual anyway). Is the reason for our dependence on foreign oil the combustion engine alone, or is it political in nature?

I need this information for my college thesis, and I've found that information located in internet forums is highly reliable; especially posts that contain phrases such as 'are you joking', that is ridiculous', and 'don't be so naive'.

 

All I was doing was responding to a statement that was innaccurate. Road Rage said that the very fact we change our car's oil so frequently increases our dependence on foriegn oil. That was innaccurate and short-sighted.

You have two uneccesary commas in your post. One is after alone and the other is after thesis. You also have a dependent clause (fragment) after after your semicolon. A semicolon is used to join two sentences togther that are very similar in subject matter remember? You 'joined' a sentence with a fragment. You my friend were sleeping in the 7th grade when grammer was being taught. Your thesis will reflect you illiteracy.

 

>>All I was doing was responding to a statement that was innaccurate

>>You have two uneccesary commas in your post.

>>You my friend were sleeping in the 7th grade when grammer was being taught.

>>Your thesis will reflect you illiteracy.

MB-telecom:

Is you right about the commas and semicolons? Maybe you is and maybe you isn't. But you seem to be an inaccurate speller of unnecessary.

Now, how about an answer to my question.

P.S. Sorry about my bad grammar. I guess I isn't as educated as you.

P.P.S. Remember, never bring a knife to a gunfight

 

Road Rage's posts are more satirical and sarcastic than naive. If you check his many previous posts and dialogue on the subject of lubricants, you will discover his talent and knowledge. My guess is that he ain't done with this one.

 

my thoughts exactly

 

M-B: Let me get this straight...

1) Are you suggesting that excessive oil changing (that is, doing it far more often than needed) does not increase the consumption of mineral oil, much of which we import, thus making us more dependent?. I never said it was the sole factor - that was your inference.

2) You also missed the point about Red Line - is has no mineral oil, and is sourced from US raw materials.

3) Red Line is a tiny fraction of the market for oil compared to the Big Three. Sponsorship would be far more lucrative from Pennzoil than Red Line. Plus, you have no evidence that such a relationship exists. Ever seen a Red Line promo in a Honda or Acura dealership, or a cutout of an NSX racer in a RedLine racing suit? My contacts at Honda engineering indicate they picked Red Line because of its performance first, other considerations far secondary. You make speculation evidentiary, which violates one of the tenets of logic, if you ever studied the subject. Now, R-L may supply the racing team with lubricants in exchange for having the R-L name displayed on the car, but that is a far amount of $$$ away from sponsorship, which was the focal point of your argument.

4) Regarding the notion that tiny wear particles add significant friction to the oil itself and therfore heat, this is simply not the case. Cite any tribologist who would make that case. I have studied lubrication professionally and as an avid car enthusiast for nearly 20 years, and have never seen the theory of "particles" advanced as a major heat generator, except at the atomic level. Compared to the heat generated by boundary effects, combustion heat, heat generated by liquid pumping effects, viscosity thickening, the impellers of the oil pump, the tiny metal particles' effect is totally inconsequential. Now, wear particles will deplete the additive package, and must be removed. But Red Line's additive package can handle 7500 miles with plenty left over, as will any synthetic made with olefin or ester stocks and competent additive carrier.

5) No one here berates people for typos as evidence of knowledge, and you are petulant for doing so. Plus, you ripped Lawman (a righteous Dude with a history here) for his grammar, and got that wrong. So do typos prove you do not know much about oil - no, your words do. A bit hypocritic, no?
.
So who is being naive?

Most of the "opinions" I have stated can be verified by reading the following:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/mtecpage/at6.pdf
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com
http://www.titanlab.com/content/inside/lab/Tests.html
http://www.lube-tips.com/BackIssues/2001-10-18.htm
http://www.machinecare.com/lube.html
http://www.predict-dli.com/frameset....lservices.html

 

1.) You are talking about the 'symptom' of using mineral oil in the 'combustion engine'. The 'root cause' of using oil is the very fact that there are millions of cars on the road, not the fact the 'some' indivuduals fecide to cahnge their oil 30% - 40% earlier than recommnened or neccessary. Our dependence both militarily and commercially is based on oil and will be for years and years to come. Ever heard of the DoD?

2.) I fully understood 'the point' about Redline.

3.) Business dealings are business dealings. Redline may not be the biggst, but you do not know EXACTLY why Honda/Acura uses Redine. The fact that Redline is the best 'performing' oil (in Honda/Acura's OPINION) is funny. Do you think Honda/Acura puts enough miles on their engines to even prove whether Redline is better than Mobil1 or any other oil? You are splitting hairs. You nor anyone else can prove if Redline is the best oil there is.

4.) Where did you study 'lubrication professionally'? Does ITT now offer a 'certificate' in 'Professional of Lubrication'?

5.) Some of your past 'assumptions' on oil where debunked by the pilot gentlemen who called you out when you tried to compare airplane engines to car engines. Your 'words' and your self-proclaimed expertise expose you as a typical 'know-it-all' and after that 'airlplane analogy' your arguments are purely tenuous.

6.) I see by your posts that you have no original thought. You are only basing your 'suppossed' expertise on the merits of what ME's have done and studied. You are 'parroting' their work/thought. Why don't you properly use quotations since you have 'copied' everything someone else wrote? If you are such an 'expert' where is your 'PE' license? PE = Professional Engineer. I doubt you even have an Engineering Degree for that matter.

6.) Spelling is a small oversight and a mostly a 'typing' issue. Grammar on the other hand is fundamental to communication in society.

7.) There is no need for 'lawman' to apologize; he should just check out a 7th grade grammar book from the local library. Everyone should know grammar as long as they stayed in school through the 7th grade. That is the most basic education and it is available to everyone.

 

MB-telecom:

I'm just working on my kindergarten thesis. Shoot, unlike Jethro Bodine, I haven't even graduated the sixth grade. I'll let you know when I get my Phd (I think that stands for Post Hole Digger) degree in the Queen's English.

>>[Grammar] is the most basic education and it is available to everyone.

I am of the opinion that manners 101 is the most basic education. However, like RR, I can be enlightened.

P.S. Eveybody's ignorant - just about different things. I think Will Rogers said that.

 

Think about it guys....

Using more oil in oil changes by definition increases our consumption/dependence.

Also think about this Jiffy Lube & dealers wants you back every 3K, that's reason enough for me to say F-em all.

 

Redline, still looking for test results (ASTM four ball scar at 50c, 1800rpm 60 min.)
AMSOIL, won't inform me of their basestock ??? What's the best ???? :wow: :wow:

 

Oh yeah, for whomever cares; I put Mobil 1 in at 3000 miles and intend to change it at 10,500. Pay twice as much and change it half as often. I do that because of info I gleaned from urls provided by the old curmudgeon (double R) as well as links posted on other forums and websites.

I also like to burn a bottle of STP Complete Fuel System Treatement every 4K miles or so. Been doing that with all my cars the last 7-8 years or so. I do it because of info gleaned from car magazines and, lately, the internet. Besides, it makes me feel good.

 

M-B:
You do not raise any points to specifically address my points, so I do not see how this is a productive discourse. Regarding my credentials, I am a member of the SAE and the AES, so I have some credibility when discussing auto and audio topics (off-topic to this Forum).

Forum members can decide for themselves if posts have authority, but your kind of name-calling usually does not make a convincing case for you as a collaborative contributor here.

I have no time to parse out individual quotes to you or others. My URL's are part of my Internet Rolodex and magazines I subscribe to, including "Practicing Oil Analysis". They support my contentions and refute yours. Argue with them. They are written by degreed professionals who make a living in the pertinent disciplines, which I do not, and I guess neither do you.

The claims for synthetics on a performance basis are, I submit and can cite, not disputed. Whether individuals want to use them and how they fit in individual vehicle usage plans and needs are of course matters of choice.

Some of the other benefits that you did not cite include:
1) Better intrinsic viscosity indexes, requiring less VI improvers, which can degrade and shear down under high stress conditions
2) Resistance to oxidation and the formation of acids due to their almost complete absence of sulfur
3) Higher film strengths
4) Mono-molecularity which makes them highly resistant to viscosity changes
5) Higher intrinsic detergency properties
6) Better pumpability at low temperatures
7) Esters tend to "stick" to metal surfaces which can reduce startup wear, although boundary lubrication is mostly performed by EP additives in additive packages
8) Lower frictional forces of the lube itself (that is, heating caused by the molecules rolling over each other)

I maintain, and always have, that all modern quality oils, mineral or synthetic, perform very well, and that the added benefits of good synoils may not be needed by most people.

To others citing the 4-Ball wear test: This is not necessarily an indice of oil performance. As I have previously posted, one can make a lube look very good on that test by increasing chlorines, bromides, etc, but they have downsides. Dura-Lube added tons of EP additives to "prove" it perovides great protection, but of course those boundary pressures are almost never found in an engine, and the URL's I posted from lube testing services do not include that test (nor a test for M-B's "particle friction thermality" theory). I would suggest that if labs professionally used by fleet owners to test a lube's efficacy do not include such tests, they might not be very applicable.

Modern internal combustion engine lubricants are a very careful blend of base oil and additive carriers, designed to work as best they can together. Playing with them by juggling componets can be risky. Lubrizol's website is a good source of info to sustain that "opinion".

 

Wow! This is quite a debate. Road Rage, you've got my vote.

This thread is pretty intense. I'm glad to be a fly on the wall this time because I don't know very much about this topic. However, I do believe the Jiffy Lubes of the world are only making matters worse by perpetuating the myth that one should change one's oil every three thousand miles. The simple fact is that if people waited until 5,000 miles to have their oil changed, than consumption would decrease significantly. I have my oil changed every 4,500 miles on average.

More importantly, I hope all of you can appreciate the exceptional sentence structure and grammar that my post demonstrates. I am disgusted by the butchering of our language that runs rampant in our society thanks to "gansta" culture and rap music.

 

enough said.

 

I agree.

 

>>More importantly, I hope all of you can appreciate the exceptional sentence structure and grammar that my post demonstrates.

 

Wow, you are utilizing a post like that to critique someone else's grammAr????? I think I learned how to spell grammar in the 2nd grade. Manners on the other hand were taught to me starting long before that.

Facts vs personal opinions, attacks, and putdowns. Sorry, but you haven't won my vote in this debate.

 

Can anyone explain why 'Road Rage' then compared airplane engines to car engines with respect to oil? I guess I am one of only two people that see that fault? Then people take a short-sighted view and say that changing one's oil every 3K miles instead of every 5K miles or more increases our nation's dependency on foreign oil? Since when does some ridulous socio-economic debate have to do with chagning one's oil with respect to caer of the car engine? I can see a 'parrot' a mile away. Since you are the 'moderator', look back and see who 'flamed' whom first? I believe it was 'lawman' who made comments about my reply to 'Road Rage' At least be consistent and address others too 'moderator'.

 

OK, Road Rage & Mr. Hyde...forgive me for what I'm about to say...

MB-telecom may have a diagnosable personality disorder. Have you seen some of his other posts? PLEASE MAKE HIM GO AWAY! He reminds me of the guy in junior high school who used to get beat up after school for acting like an a$$ hole, but would do the same stupid $hit the next day and get beat up again. Where does he get the nerve to bag on everyone INCLUDING moderators?

Sorry fellas, but he's got to go.

 

"But he started it..........."


Thanks for the suggestion 'newbie'. I'll give it all the consideration it so justly deserves.

 

I'm with RR. The other guy is blowing smoke. RR, although sometimes sarcastic and at others arrogant, present verifiable information or at least logical arguments. The other guy, well....
I enjoyed this post.

 

All:

1) I had an epiphany last night - MB is an Internet Hoax, like the guy who bought expensive cigars then insured them then smoked them then asked for compensation.

2) For the record: I never "compared airplane engines to autos" - I did post a break-in document from Lycoming, an airplane engine mfr. It was to show that widely varying piston reciprocating engines have recommended break-in procedures, which was in the context of the thread. Anyone who cannot separate out the two, including M-B and a subsequent poster in that thread, clearly has an attention span challenge

3) Old Guy: Assertive, Yes! Somewhat of a Chat Room mindless blather spoilsport? Yes again! Arrogant - hmmmmm.....

 

Once again, airplane engines are 'broken in' DIFFERENTLY than car engines. They have MANY fundamental engineering differences. Road Rage's comparion was out of context simply because he tried to make a comparsion that was inherently flawed. A comparison cannot be made since the two are so different. Notice how he constantly parrots the techincalities of what engineers have deduced while he is far, far from an engineer himself.

Instead of trying to be a 'know-it-all' and an 'expert', why don't you just simply post the URLs for us to read ourselves? You can then stop parroting other's work and stop the pretending.

Don't always trust a guy like 'Road Rage' (even though he may be right most of the time, he is only parrotting what he has read elsewhere). If you trust what he says implicitly, then you are following a 'Jimmy Swaggert'. :-)

 

dude, relax this is a car forum not an engineering debate. I don't think anyone, including RR is saying that what RR says is the RULE OF THE LAND which we must all follow like sheep, I think the information he provides is extremely informative and usefull to know, if you think otherwise you should feel free to chime in with your opinion, but this back and forth nitpicking about planes and degrees and grammar and spelling is becoming silly and not really benefiting anyone.

- just my $.02 about this.

Personally I hate Mobil1 b/c when I used to put in my talon it made the lifters tick like crazy, from what I've been reading, many racing teams use redline, but I'm too cheap to use that, I've been using castrol syntec for the majority of the time with my 12 yr old talon w/ 128000 miles, can't complain. As for my TL I've gotten lazy and take it to the dealer for whatever they put in there. It's nice to see though that even after 4000 miles on the same oil, the oil looks sparkling clean.

 

Mr. Hyde:

Whatever you do, please do not ban MB-telecom. He is some of the best (if not the most predictable) entertainment in this forum. Who else would we (i.e. those who have views that differ from his) get to call us names, castigate our manhood, and point out that we are scholastic underachievers?

After doing a search and reading his posts, I submit that MB-telecom is a jewel, a once-in-a-lifetime treasure (ok maybe not once-in-a-lifetime and maybe not a treasure). I don't know if he is in a class all by himself, but I'm sure it couldn't take the teacher long to take the roll (paraphrasing Bum Phillips - former Houston Oilers football coach).

Imagine how dull certain threads would be if MB were not allowed to post. And besides, we now know two ways to yank his chain. First you can disagree with him. Second you can ignore him. Or you can do both, first disagree with him and then ignore him. Just imagine the possibilities.

If we had a vote, I would cast my ballot in favor of keeping MB-telecom around ----- just for the fun of it.

P.S. I almost forgot, I tried to keep this on topic by mentioning the Houston Oilers

 

Hey M-B: I post what I have in my head - it is called knowledge. Your admonition to others not to pay attention to me because it is repeating what other "real experts" state is absurd. That would mean we could not debate the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle because are not Werner Heisenberg himself. Your logic continues to unimpress.

Your sheer pretention in warning others that I am not an engineer is also laughable. I have a BS in Physics from one of those Ivy schools, a Masters in EE and ME, am a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers and the Audio Engineering Society, and write for an auto publication and a high-end audio magazine. My full-time position is as IT Manager for a Fortune 5 Company.

And one other thiong - when I am wrong, I admit it. Your vitriole (good word for a red-neck cretin like me) contributes nothing and only fouls the air.

Recess over, junior.

 

Road Rage I'm with you and it is obvious M-B has some sort of problem that revolves around " I have to prove you wrong and I have to have the last word". Right M-B?

 

guess I missed this one.