roadman

Group,

I just discovered that Amsoil has recently announced the release of the recommended weight oil for our cars.
http://www.amsoil.com/products/xlm.html

So long Dino oils !!!

MCD

How good is Amsoil?

Mr Hyde

Sweeeeet.

Amsoil is very good stuff, but hard to come by as it is not sold in stores. There fore it is also a little more expensive than Mobil 1. Guess I'll have to find a local distributor until Mobil starts making 5W-20

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Just call me..................Mr Hyde
TL Type-S Moderator
02 Aegean Blue TL Type-S with Navi
Accord Forum Moderator/Honda-Acura.net
96 Sherwood Green Accord EX

roadman

No need to find a distributor, or even go out to get it. You can order directly from Amsoil's web site.

These guy's invented synthetic oil about 20 years ago. They tell exactly what they put in the oil, some other major brands, you really do not know

coosamtn

Roadman..I don't dispute that Amsoil invented synthetic , but Mobile 1 was available in 1975. I used it in my new 1976 Honda Accord

greenpelikan

Does anyone have an idea why Acura decided to spec out a 5W-20 for the TL-S??

MCD

Less friction to keep the gas mileage high I believe..

csp33

Amsoil is about the same class of brand as Redline Oil, they advertise their oil in many of the domestic club racing like SCCA and stuff.... So if the 20 weight is for the gas saving, what about high performance driving? Don't we need something with a higher grade for high temp. operation? I live in Texas, and there were times the temp. will reach over 110 egrees for like a whole week and if you wanna push the engine harder, man, I don't think 20 will do the job right...

roadman

csp33

The temp where you live may warrant switching to a thicker weight oil, if you are worried about the heats impact on oil, then synthetic, regardless of the brand will offer much more safety that conventional oil. The boiling point of synthetic is far greater that the dino stuff.

feliz

Popular Mechanics, I think the latest issue, had an small article about 5-20 oil. Other manufacturers are using it besides Honda. Apparently it's the oil of the future and will be readily available.

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Feliz

98 Acura CL, primrose
2002 TL-S, silver

Road Rage

Amsoil is crap! They use third-rate hydrowaxes, not even quality PAO's. They cannot be compared to Redline, which is a true synthetic, having never been a mineral oil.

Redline is polyol ester, the highest quality ester manufactured today, with much higher shear strength, boil point, TBN, etc.

Amsoil has also, as a company, been involved in numerous shady deals over the years, including a defrauding of the Federal govt. in providing drums of "synthetic oil" which was mineral oil with a flaky additive package.

They also at one point claimed 25,000 mile drain intervals, but their oils had depleted additive componentry at about 6000 miles. Now they say you have to use their special oil filtration system, which does not flow adequately for most modern engines.

Nutz and Bolotz tested Amsoil against other synthetics and against Redline. They found that Amsoil peformed worse than Mobil 1 and Pennzoil synthetic, and that at 10,000 miles, Redline outperformed Amsoil new!

All this is not speculation - it is a matter of fact.

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Rage On!
2002 TL-S w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17

Road Rage

One other thing -Amsoil did not invent synthetic oil! That is baloney.

Synthetic was developed by Standard Oil engineers in the 1930's. The patents were generally available, and in fact, German scientists got a hold of the patents and violated them in preparing Hitler's war machine, the Wehrmact and the Luftwaffe, for WWII. The Germans were able to continue to fuel their war machine even after losing North Africa, because they had synoil capability.

If Amsoil says they invented it, they are liars, which does not surprise me at all, and argues strongly against any other claims they make as I have posted. As in a court of law, once impeached, other testimony is circumspect.

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Rage On!
2002 TL-S w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17

hunter001

Is Redline commonly available ? I would like to try it out in my next oil change. My local dealer stocks Quaker state synthetic oil. Any idea how good Quaker state is ?



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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

feliz

Road Rage is correct. The Germans worked hard to get synthetic oil into production for use on the Russian front for their tanks. Even with synthetic oil they had problems keeping equipment running in the harsh weather.

I've never used Redline in a engine but it's the ultimate oil for manual transmissions and for differentials, I've used it. It's widely used in some racing circles.

I made the mistake of contacting an Amsoil dealer once and he hounded me for months to become a distributor, I woudn't buy a product from a company that has to operate that way.

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Feliz

98 Acura CL, primrose
2002 TL-S, silver

Road Rage

Go to Redline's website to check dealer availability www.redlineoil.com.
They will sell direct if no one in your area sells it.

Warning: it ain't cheap, but you can easily go 7500 miles between oil changes.

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Rage On!
2002 TL-S w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17

hunter001

Thanks for the link Roadrage.

What do you feel about Quaker State synthetic? That's the one that is stocked at my dealer...



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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

Road Rage

QS is okay.

Last night I dowloaded all the MSDS's for Valvoline, Mobil 1, etc.

Valvoline has about 10% diester - not the polyol ester in Redline, but still better than the PAO's and much better than the crappy hydrowaxes Castrol uses in Syntec.

Mobil 1 has some ester in it but mostly PAO's.

Amsoil, naturally, was MIA - I suppose I could emand their MSDS but based on my experiences, they are not contenders in my car's engine!

So I would rate the synoils as follows:

1) Redline
2) Tie: Valvoline Synpower and Mobil 1

I am sure there may be a few other good ones but these are the ones widely used in racing and for which there is alots of experience.

BTW, the boiling point of all the other synthetics is not much higher than mineral oils, and there is some evidence that when they do burn, they don't burn off as cleanly as minerals do because they are monomolecular. So it is possible that in the hottest temp areas, that can get that hot, they might leave some residue.

Redline is temp stable out beyond 700 degrees so it offers protection if something were to go seriously wrong. One reason why some race cars have finished using RL when there was engine or fuel mishap.

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Rage On!
2002 TL-S w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17

Guest

hahaha...road rage, youre sick! Way to tell it how it is!

cedric_fl

Here is a link to a good test of oils.
http://www.c5-corvette.com/redline.htm

Hope you find this helpful.
Cedric

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2002 Aegean Blue TL-S

Road Rage

Wow! What vitriole? Did you even bother to read all the threads? Someone else claimed Amsoil said it invented synoil, not me. So calm down.

I will overlook the personal attack on me as a "knowitall" - I will leave it to the other members to decide the validity of my posts. I can tell you that I have degrees in the pertinent fields, and have worked in the automotive presss for many years. So I may be going slow in your view, but I'll match my credentials any day.

You must be a dealer to so righteously defend Al, but I have in my files the background info, and stand by it.

Dave Solomon at Nutz and Boltz did a huge expose of Amsoil a while back and as far as I know he was not attacked for slander since the truth protects the press. He is sthe source of the Federal scam.

Dave also ran the real-world tests and published the results and Amsoil did not allow extended drains, as its Total Base Number dropped too low, indicative of acid buildup and a possibly weak additive package. You may dispute that, but those are the results that were obtained.

As to the substantive points of my post, I stand by them. Amsoil once claimed 25,000 mile oil changes - if it was ever true, it still would be true. Now it is 100,000 miles? Nuts! It may keep the oil clean, but what of the sacrificial additives? They get used up! Does that filter trap acids?

They guarantee their product? - Big deal, how many have they paid out? Lubricant insufficiencies do not show up until the engine has reached very high miles, as even fairly well maintained cars using ordinary mineral oils will routinely go 100k miles.

So Al is in the Lubricant World's Hall ofFame? I would be more impressed if he were on the board of the SAE, of which I am a lifetime member. He may be a pioneer in the marketing of synthetic oil, but Amsoil is regarded by many as a company long on marketing, short on delivery. In the engineering circles I run in, they are not even a blip on the radar map in terms of innovation or intellectual property.

Xorg

I use PetroMoly, the only one that has been tested by the EPA and proven to reduce emissions while improving mileage.

That being said, just change it every 3,000 miles - everyone I know who has had their ride more than 100K miles does this regularly.

Lrpba300

Dear amslink; I have to say something to you and I hope this doesn't get ugly, but I will support Road Rage on one point he wrote on his earlier post. He made reference to a distributor harrasing him to become a distributor, and he didn't like that tactic. Well, I've been in that same situation before w/a Amsoil "person", and don't care for their dist. tactics. There were many people that felt the same, people who raced cars, built & rebuilt engines. I put it in one of my own engines that was raced and SAW no better results than reg. mineral oil. Yes, this was long ago, (about '76, '77 time frame), but the guru for BANDIMERE'S engine shop said to get that "crap" out of his shop, & don't come back!THis is actual experience, not reading somewhere or hearsay. So don't go calling ROAD RAGE a "Cliff Claven", 'cause cliff maybe correct about some things. I'm not endorsing Redline Syn. oil, b/c I don't have any experience w/ the product, but I'll tell you & others on this board, I'll NEVER have, nor will I tell others to use Amsoil in their cars. I don't care how much you tell me it's changed or how better it is. It will not be used in my engine, PERIOD!!! Thank you Road Rage for telling us like you feel it is.


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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lrpba300?...l=fld3&.src=ph

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Lrpba300 on May 08, 2001 @ ]</font>

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Lrpba300 on May 08, 2001 @ ]</font>

roadman

My apologies for incorrectly stating that Amsoil invented synthetic oil, I misread their web site. I have not used this product, my comments are based on statements from their web site. In doing a simple search on 5w-20, they were the only ones that showed any hits. With Honda and Ford now using this weight oil, it is a safe bet that all if not most oil manufacturers will come out with this grade soon.

A fact that should be noted, the Amsoil 5w-20 is not a 25,000 oil, based on their web site they call it a 7,500 mile grade, meaning that it is not their top of the line High Performance grade.

Just a thought, if anyone knows: How do these small companies manufacture synthetic oil, do they start from absolutely nothing or is there a base that they use as a starting point, then add their own brew of additives ?

Guest

It appears this Redline vs. AMSOIL discussion is getting way out of hand. Normally, I'm just a casual browser on a number of forums. I haven't before posted to this forum, and I hope I don't step on any toes.

All of the bashing and name calling is really unnecessary. I have to say that, although amslink has gotten a little hot under the collar, he's on target with his posts.

AMSOIL would certainly show up on the FTC website if there had ever been any formal complaints lodged against the company, especially if they had been proven accurate. If the "victim" had been the federal government, I believe you would certainly find at least ONE reference to this supposed scam. But, there are no references to it ANYWHERE, besides in Road Rage's post, at least not that I can find.

In addition, Road Rage refers to this Nutz and Boltz test which showed AMSOIL getting thrashed by everyone. That's all fine and good, but I can't find the results of this test anywhere either. In addition, I have to say that the fact that Redline is a large sponsoring advertiser with Nutz and Boltz does not favor impartiality of the results.
Sounds a little "shady" to me.

Moreover, the implication that AMSOIL oils won't last beyond 6,000 miles and that Red Line's oils will last far longer is rubbish, as far as I'm concerned, at least until significant proof can be shown.

I have seen numerous oil analysis reports from vehicles running AMSOIL that have shown the oil in good condition even after 25,000 and 35,000 miles (WITHOUT running a bypass oil filtration system). I have also seen oil analysis reports from two different vehicles that showed Red Line oils in poor shape after only a few thousand miles.

I put some example results up on the following pages. Names have been deleted to protect the privacy of the individuals who's oil analysis results are shown.
www.Motor-Oil-Bible.com/oil-analysis.html www.Motor-Oil-Bible.com/red-line.html

Let me be clear that I'm not sure that means Red Line oils aren't good for extended drains. There may have been other circumstances that somehow affected the oil in these vehicles to cause it to have poor numbers after such a short drain interval.

However, the point is, test results can be doctored and testing parameters can be adjusted to show just about anything you want - unless you are using ASTM standardized testing procedures.

If you see a test on some oil company's website that doesn't reference specific ASTM testing numbers, ignore it. It doesn't mean anything, because the test isn't necessarily reproducable. The parameters of the test aren't established by a third party measuring stick such as the ASTM.

Also, make sure they're using the right test for the right lube. Some companies will apply a test designed for gear lubes to motor oil. Makes for good promotional material, but it means nothing. The test wasn't designed for motor oil, so the results are meaningless.

As far as the issue of AMSOIL's marketing strategy goes, you may not like Network Marketing. Not everybody does. That's your choice.

I know there are a number of shady companies out there using MLM as their marketing strategy which sheds a negative light on any company using MLM marketing. However, there are legitimate companies out there that have a high level of integrity that use this marketing method as well. Just as there are VERY unscrupulous companies using "traditional" marketing methods to sell their products.

In addition, I'm sure you've all had the experience of dealing with an extremely pushy car or insurance salesman. Did that necessarily mean that the company they worked for didn't sell quality vehicles or quality insurance? Do you always go to another company, or do you sometimes simply find a different salesman from the same company who isn't as obnoxious?

You've got good and bad apples everywhere. Just because you run across a bad apple that happens to use MLM or a bad apple that happens to sell AMSOIL products is no reason to label the company or other representatives of the company with the same broad stroke.

An interesting side note: MANY oil additives on the market which have been sited for violations and false claims by the FTC are manufactured by subsidiaries of large oil companies such as Quaker State, Pennzoil, etc. Why is it that when large oil companies such as these use shady "traditional" marketing practices, people don't feel uncomfortable buying other products from the same company, but the very mention of network marketing or MLM sends people running.

I don't know. Just seems that everyone is getting just a little bit overzealous with all of this. I think that both Red Line and AMSOIL oils are excellent oils. I think that AMSOIL oils are more economical over the long haul and may provide an advantage in engine protection.

Can I know that for certain? Not unless I had a fleet of about 50 cars, half using AMSOIL and half using Red Line, taking the same trips under the same conditions with oil analysis results taken at the same intervals, etc. Then, about 300,000 miles later, the oil analysis results of the vehicles could all be averaged, and those averages could be compared between the two product lines. All the engines would be torn down and engine wear and tolerances measured (after having been measured all of these quantities BEFORE the test began). These values also could be averaged and compared. THEN, you might have a good idea of which oil protects best over the long haul.

Nevertheless, neither company has done this. Is it because they're afriad of the results. I don't know, but I doubt it. It's more likely because such a test is so expensive and so time consuming and really wouldn't likely increase sales all that much anyway.

So, why do it. They're in business to sell oil and to make money. Why spend all that time and energy on something that will likely only bring in a small ROI (return on investment)? It just doesn't make fiscal sense.

Both companies have excellent oils as best I can tell from my research, and I don't think that either company (or it's representatives or supporters) needs to waste it's time bashing the other company to try and increase sales. Just keep producing a quality product and let word of mouth do it's work.



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Mike Kaufman
Motor Oil Bible Author
http://Motor-Oil-Bible.com

Guest

To the Guy that posted on the board that amsoil is no good . I have to say one thing my friend you do not no what your talking about you should do more reading before you start makeing false statements. Remember one thing amsoil is the first to start synthetics and all the others came into the picture next.Maybe you should try it before you say anything.

Guest

Not that I'm all that interested in continuing this discussion any further - it's not likely to go anywhere anyway - A couple of things come to mind which should be mentioned in regards to this last post.

Four Ball - It is very true that the four ball can be manipulated by using EP agents. But, that is irrelevant because AMSOIL does not use EP agents in it's oils with the exception of Zinc and Phosphorus which all lubricants manufacturers use.

As far as MSDS, I requested them today for the 5W-20 and Series 2000 0W-30 to take a look.

As regards the warranty, what do you want them to say. Anyone who uses AMSOIL and ever has any mechanical problems with their vehicle, please feel free to request that we pay for repairs. That includes those who have antifreeze or water in their oil, those who choose to run their engines on 2 quarts of oil for months, ....

Come on. There aren't too many products out there that say, use our product any way you choose, even if it is contrary to our recommendations, and we'll pay for replacement or repair if anything goes wrong.

There has to be some realism here.



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Mike Kaufman
Motor Oil Bible Author
http://Motor-Oil-Bible.com

Guest

OK, so I have no credentials whatsoever in this subject other than an interest. To all debaters: Is it fair to say that any of these synthetics, including Amsoil and Redline, is superior to regular petroluem? Far superior? Thanks

coosamtn

I opened a can of synthetic oil and found the head of a dead mouse inside! Can I sue sombody?

feliz

I found a dead mouse in a milk container once. They replaced the milk.

Road Rage

1) I just received the MSDS for Amsoil 5w30, and it says "85-95% decene.. hydrogenated" and mentions no esters, whether di or polyol, and no PAO's of any sort. Allowing for the additive package, there is no evidence of the premier synthetic compounds amslink so vehemently refers to. To my understanding, a hydrowax is a fortified mineral oil synthesized to perform better than mineral oil, but not by much. All the MSDS's from RL, Mobil, and Valvoline mentioned the use of esters and PAO's.
2) I have tried Amsoil, years ago, and after the recommended 12,500 interval (in anew Corvette), I sent it to Quaker State for analysis. They recomended a drain based on depleted additive package. So I have tried it, but that is irrelevant anyway - let's stick to the substantive issues.
3) What published tests? Amsoil makes a big deal out of the 4-ball wear test. This is a standard ASTM test of which I have a good working knowledge. It is also capable of being manipulated by having a lot of EP (extreme pressure) compounds in the additive. You may recall that DuraLube scored extremely high in this kind of test, using huge amounts of EP. The problem is that EP's can have deleterious effects if not balanced properly, and can accelerate other wear (this is the problem with chlorinated halogens if you want to get technical).
4) Warranty? I read it last night. I suggested anyone on the Forum read it and decide whether this is anything special. It says Amsoil will stand behind its product if the oil has not been adulterated, and is shown to be the proximate cause of the failure. With a 25,000 mile change interval (a filter change at 12,500) one could have an oil failure to perform due to the oil, the engine, environmental issues, etc. This could easily lead to rejection by Amsoil, and practically begs for mid-change oil analysis, which runs the cost of operation way up. Again I ask - how many claims have been made against this warranty, and how many paid out?
5) Dave Solomon's comments on RL vs. Amsoil were made before he got any corporate support from RL, so while one might infer there is a conflict of interest today, the argument is not valid for statements made prior.
6) I never called anyone a name. That was amslink's "contribution".
7) I like Cliff Claven, but he was a postman who espoused on topics for which he had no training or professional expertise - I assure you, I have both, and no axe to grind.

Cheers!

Guest

I guess all the comments by the Redline fan (dealer?) and others mean I
shouldn't have used Amsoil for the last 25 years, shouldn't have driven over
1.5 million miles with Amsoil engine oils, gear oils, ATF, oil filters and
air filters. and definitely shouldn't have gone the 25,000 mile drain
intervals over most of that time, 35,000 intervals with the Series 2000 0W-30
for the last 5 years?

I guess I should have taken a decrease in fuel economy and changed my oil
more often.

I guess I shouldn't have become a dealer to get the stuff cheaper way back in
1976. (I'm part Scotsman).

I guess I shouldn't have decided to tell other folks about the stuff and sign
up over 150 other dealers. (Some just cheap like me wanting to get it for
less, others wanting to make a buck).

I guess I should have pressured them like I've heard some other folks do.
(there are "pressure" types and "laid back" types in about every field, I happen
to be laid back). As I told a fellow today who wanted to get some of the
stuff, "here are your options, dealer, preferred customer or retail, I
couldn't care less". I guess I should be like every other retail outlet and
make all I can on the sale.

I guess I should have crawled under my 1997 Saturn SL1 more often, that now
has 273,000+ miles on it. I gave it it's 8th oil change about an hour ago... 38,000 mile son the oil, I have been kind of busy lately so was 3000 miles late. It still gets 38 to 40 MPG in the winter and 40 to 42 MPG in the summer.

I guess I should go back to getting 35 to 38MPG at best like I'm supposed to.

BTW... Grin... There are some 4X4 events coming up this summer I'll be
attending, driving our Unimog. We need some small cars to use for wheel chocks, minor obstacles, etc.... (heh-heh).

Saabs work out pretty well with the sloping roof. I imagine Acuras would
crush better though.
http://www.edsanders.com http://www.allroutes.to/mog

Mr.T

sUP GUYS,
Just use the MObil 1

Mr.T

Guest

Mr T I also would use Mobil 1, but only if I could not get Amsoil. They both are made from the same base material which is PAO. the difference between the two is the quality of the oil additive package which has been certified by Lubrizol Corp, a fortune 500 company. Lubrizol line of business is the manufacture of oil additive packages for the chemical industry. Lubrizol has said Amsoil uses the finest oil additives available any where in the world. I think that is a great endorsement of Amsoil regardless of what others here in this chat room have said.

------------------
bcool.

Guest

TLS Dave. You are correct in believing that any of the synthetic oils are superior to any petro oil. Please do compare the synthetics by their ASTM test results because that is the only way you can really tell if you are buying a superior product. Another important ASTM test to look for is the Noack Volatility Test ASTM D-5800. It measures the ability of an oil to stay in grade after it has been heated to 150 (302F)degrees centigrade for one hour. The oil is then measured for percentage of weight loss. As the lighter components boil off the oil's viscosity will change to a heavier viscosity. You start with 5w oil and could after 1 hour wind up with a 15w or even a 20w in your engine. It is important that the oil you buy stays in grade for the proper lubrication of your vehicle

Road Rage

1) Lubrizol supplies the additive package for nearly every US manufacturer. There is very small variance between them, as the additive compounds must be carefully balanced to be effective.

2) So now Amsoil is a PAO? Amslink indicated it had diesters, polyol esters, PAO's, etc.

Well I have the Amsoil MSDS on my desktop, and here is what it says:

Section 2: Composition/information on ingredients
"1-decene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated Base, CAS#Mixture, 85-95%".

Perhaps the amateur tribologists and dealers can explain this apparent discrepancy?

Let me try (I am an amateur tribologist with stacks and stacks of relevant research and scientific monographs on this subject).
Allowing for additive package of 5 -15% (typical figure), it would appear from Amsoil's own literature that the compound that makes up Amsoil 5w30 is hydrogentated synthetic oil, or a hydrowax as it is known in the trade, and which I asserted way back in the thread.

(Hydrowaxes will outperform mineral oil, and are cheap, which is why they are used in Castrol Syntec, for example, to undercut Mobil 1, Valvoline, and others that use PAO's and esters. Redline, you may recall, is all polyol ester plus an additive package.
So unless Amsoil is cheaper, why would you want it when the others have better ingredients?)

Where are the PAO's and esters, which are far more costly and effective synthetic lubricants? Is this an omission or error in an important safety document? Or does the MSDS tell the truth, where others do not?

One other thing: when I was surfing last night and looking at Amsoil dealer's websites, I read a lot of inane and inaccurate technical claims. My favorite was one guy who claims to have 300 dealers under (it is a pyramid sales structure), and Amsoil helps protect the environment by being synthetically made. Well, Bubba, the fact is that a hydrowax starts out life as a mineral oil, and is synthesized and often mixed with gas compounds to end up as it does.

By comparison, Redline was never a mineral oil, having been created molecule by molecule from its base components, which I believe are alcohols and compouds extracted from corn, a renewable and abundant American-sourced agricultural product.

ZodiakTL

uhg.. this is like reading astro-physics only i understand a lot less here... now my head hurts ... shouldn't have read this whole thing

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'02 Nighthawk TL-S
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Comptech Springs / Comptech Headers
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Alpine CVA-1005 Head Unit / Alpine CDA-7863 CD Player / Alpine G320 EQ / Alpine DVA-5205 DVD / Alpine NVE-N851A Navi / JL Audio XR653-CS 3-Way comps for the front powered by a bridged Alpine MRV-F407 amp / Boston Acoustics 5.5 ProSeries 2-Way comps for the rear powered by Alpine MRV-1002 amp / Dual 10" JL Audio W-6 sub powered by Alpine MRV-1005 amp / Two Alpine CHA-1214 CD Changers / 20% Tint all-around

__________________
'00 Nighthawk TL
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Aem Short Ram / Comptech Sway Bars / Comptech Springs / Cross-Drilled Rotors / Pirelli SP7000 Tires / 35% Tint all-around
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Pics of my TL and Fun/Crazy Pics

Guest

Here is a chart taken from Plant Engineering which compares various types of synthetic lubes. For the sake of brevity I'm only to show two type. PAO and Polyol Ester. Those of you that read this partial chart can make up your own mind. The letter ratings are as follows. E= excellent, VG= very good, G=good,
F= fair,P=poor.
PAO Polyol Ester
Viscosity-Temperature G G

Low Temperature G G

High temp oxidation
stability with inhibitor VG E

Compatibility with
mineral oil E F

Low Volatility E E

Compatibility with
paints and finishes. E P

Hydrolytic Stability E F

Antirust inhibitor E F

Additive solubility G VG

Seal Swell performance E F

There's several other syntheic bases on this chart and in some tests they out perform both PAO and Polyol esters. What on must do is to determine what features you want and what operating conditions and then pick the lube that is best for you.

PAOs are good for reciprocating engine where there is a mixing of the combustion particulate with the lubricant since they tend to keep the particulate in suspension so that the filters can remove it.

Polyol esters are great for applications where ther is not any mixing of the combustion particulate. Example jet engines and various other turbines. Mobil Oil is the worlds largest producer of polyol ester lubes and it is used for the commercial and military jet engine applications. When they want a lube for reciprocating engines, they use PAO. Does Mobil Oil know something that certain people here on the board do not want to talk about?

Now you tend to judge Amsoil total product line by looking at only one product. You can not compare apples to oranges and come to a logical conclusion about the quality of the products. Amsoil is the world's largest
manufacturer of a full line of synthetic lubrication products. I know you will not acknowledge the last statement. If you don't believe it that is OK with me. I know it to be true since I live near the Redline Plant here in Calif and I have toured the Amsoil Plant in Wisconsin. There is no comparison in size. We have argued about lubricants and about what you have deducted from MSDS sheets. You know as well as I do the MSDS do not give the full story about whatis in a quart of oil. They give only that material that is dangerous to the public. Amsoil is a privately held company and as such is not obligated to devulge it's formulation to anybody as you well know. Now if you truly want to analyze Amsoil Use the ASTM tests and do a spectrochemical analysis of the product. Let's start wit a product that both Redline and Amsoil both make. Use Amsoil's TRO Series 2000 20W5o Race oil and compare it to Redline's @0W50 Race oil.

And finally I want to say that Amsoil has been a PAO Base oil since 1980 and that you have been dealing with hearsay and incomplete information from from other people and then passing it on as the bibilical truth. For an engineer as you say you are, you are doing a most incomplete job of researching your topics. I studied engineering(electrical)and have found at times engineers tend to judge themselves as experts in all fields. You have yet to say what field you have your degree in. Could it be Sanitation engineer rather than Tribilogy!

Guest

The above chart I posted did not reproduce as I had it set up on the screen. Keep in mind that PAO is listed first and Pololester results are 2nd.

roadman

Very cool debate, and a lot of very good techical info, good job to all. The question that I think that the driving public needs to know is this:

With both AMSoil and Redline costing at least double that of Mobil 1, are AMSoil and Redline twice as effective as Mobil 1 ?

Good point by the way on the incompatability with the paints and finish, unless of course we want that DeLorean Stainless Steel look !!!!

Road Rage

You know, educated people can disagree, but I think the name calling is typical of people whose arguments need shoring up by the raising of the voice, not by the upgrading of the argument. I personally resent being insulted by those that disagree.
Disagree all you want, but be civil.

Especially the Newbies that rise to defend their source of income, and yet have not posted useful information that has assisted others over many months.

RE: the MSDS. Are those that defend the Amsoil statement saying the PAO's and esters are not harmful and therefore should be omitted? They why are those compounds listed on the competitions MSDS (Valvoline, Mobil 1)?

And they ducked the issue of what the compound described in Amsoil's MSDS is - a hydrogenated decene is a PAO?

Re: the awesome plant engineering analysis - while I agree with most of them, it is a red herring argument - the additive package deals with most of areas that polyol's need strengthening, such as adding seal swelling agents. The point is, polyol's strengths outweight the PAO or hydrowax, and cannot be added back. Shear strength, TBN, boiling point, all favor the Polyol.

And when Acura goes racing, they use synthetic oil...Red Line. That is true for the 4-cylinder Integra and the 6-cylinder NSX engines.

The decals are prominently displayed.

Based on previous arguments, that would suggest that Acura chooses not to use the best and technically capable lubricant in its expensive race engines. Makes a lot of sense.

Re: pricing. Amsoil has several markups due to their cascaded sales system. Given normal manufacturing factors of several times base cost, it suggests that the ingredients are less expensive than RL, which does not have multiple markup pricing structure.

And the size of the plant argument is silly - playground stuff - mine's bigger! RL buys its base stocks and then blends them. If Amsoil is bigger, that proves only that they have more effectively marketed their product, not the intrinsic value. That would be like saying a Thom McAN shoe is better than a Johnston & Murphy because it has a bigger factory.