Supercharging cars
03-06-2003, 07:32 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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Supercharging cars
I want to know why it is they can take a heavy a$$ car like a mercury merauder S and (Ford Crown Victoria )and put a supercharger with 7lb. of boost to get four hundred and 60 horses. the car stock comes with 300 and two horses. now why can't we get at least 300 from a base 225 TL or 325 from a Type S. That mercury car can do 60 in 4 seconds. So many cars can do 60 in under 6 and many are four cylinder cars. WTF I want real engineers making parts Im tired of rinky dink redesigns of stock parts to add a horse here and there. Is it just because CT is using low boost or is it weak design?
03-06-2003, 08:24 PM
#2
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Actually Mercury Marauder turned out to be a slow car despite all the tuning. Definitely not 4 seconds. More like 7.something seconds.
As a matter of fact Mercury decided to stop producing the Marauder because it did not meet expectations.
Also a stock Mercury Grand Marquis does not make 300HP. It makes somewhere between 200 and 250HP.
You have quite a few bits of wrong info.
As a matter of fact Mercury decided to stop producing the Marauder because it did not meet expectations.
Also a stock Mercury Grand Marquis does not make 300HP. It makes somewhere between 200 and 250HP.
You have quite a few bits of wrong info.
03-06-2003, 08:30 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
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Pick up this months car and driver! The Marauder is in that issue. It is exactly as I posted and slow stock but fast after the SC. I was referring to the mods that a tunning company did to it, keeping the engine stock just with a supercharger. And thats just an example take all those mitsubihi turbos and all the supercharged cars and they go much faster thats my point.
03-06-2003, 08:41 PM
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Those cars have V8's. Large displacement V8's at that. We have an average size displacement V6. To get 300hp out of a V6 without forced induction is a work of art in itself. Also some V8's out there are iron block. Very strong and very heavy. Aluminum (what our block is made of) is very light but also very weak. Displacement and/or boost will give you the power you're looking for. there's only so much you can do with 3.2 liters before you have to bore and/or stroke the engine. Of course, once you bore out an engine, you're making the walls thinner and even weaker.
At any rate, to answer your question as to why can't a CL/TL make those kinds of numbers or that power depends on many variables. Weight of the car, transmission (strength and efficiency), suspension, tires, weight of the wheels, gearing, etc.
Drivetrain
FWD is horrible for traction if you want acceleration. RWD and AWD have the advantage here. The 4 cyl FWD cars out there pushing fast times are light weight and in some cases are AWD (in the case of the WRX). FWD is also a fragile drivetrain. You can only put so much power through it before something breaks. Keep in mind you're trying to push all this power through these very skinny and britle half shafts. RWD has a nice big, heavy, and most importantly, strong driveshaft down the center of the car. Then it usually goes to a solid live rear axle. Also very big, heavy, and strong. AWD will give the benefits of RWD when it comes to acceleration. AWD even has the best advantage for off the line jumps. But the drawback is it's still just as britile, if not more brittle as FWD. AWD also is not very efficient at power transfer. There are so many parts in an AWD drivetrain to spin that it takes a good bit more power JUST to rotate all those components.
Forced Induction
Now when you go supercharging things, there are a few more things you do when you want to supercharge the right way. Port & polish the heads, cams designed to take advantage of forced induction, larger fuel injectors, higher grade fuel pressure regulator & pump, sometimes forged internals are needed. Intercoolers are also an important component. Superchargers can make the boost at a lower RPM than a turbocharger can and thus a lot faster 0 to 60 time. In the 1/4 mile, you've got a good bit of distance to make use of the entire rev range. In 0 to 60's, you've got the entire first gear and the low to mid end of 2nd. The WRX and Dodge Neon SRT-4 use turbo's which spool up a little faster (smaller & ligher turbo). This will provide great mid range power at the cost of high end power.
Gearing
Manufacturers make gears on production cars to be fuel efficient and still provide some kick in the pants. I've noticed a few manufacturers have made their gearing to give great numbers in 0 to 60 times. But those tend to be less fuel efficient when it comes to cruising. The same can be said for 1/4 mile times. Generally, manual's have shorter gearing and will give better acceleration times.
I'd go on but I feel my post is long winded already. I'm sure you get the point though and I'm sure others here are capable of elaborating more.
At any rate, to answer your question as to why can't a CL/TL make those kinds of numbers or that power depends on many variables. Weight of the car, transmission (strength and efficiency), suspension, tires, weight of the wheels, gearing, etc.
Drivetrain
FWD is horrible for traction if you want acceleration. RWD and AWD have the advantage here. The 4 cyl FWD cars out there pushing fast times are light weight and in some cases are AWD (in the case of the WRX). FWD is also a fragile drivetrain. You can only put so much power through it before something breaks. Keep in mind you're trying to push all this power through these very skinny and britle half shafts. RWD has a nice big, heavy, and most importantly, strong driveshaft down the center of the car. Then it usually goes to a solid live rear axle. Also very big, heavy, and strong. AWD will give the benefits of RWD when it comes to acceleration. AWD even has the best advantage for off the line jumps. But the drawback is it's still just as britile, if not more brittle as FWD. AWD also is not very efficient at power transfer. There are so many parts in an AWD drivetrain to spin that it takes a good bit more power JUST to rotate all those components.
Forced Induction
Now when you go supercharging things, there are a few more things you do when you want to supercharge the right way. Port & polish the heads, cams designed to take advantage of forced induction, larger fuel injectors, higher grade fuel pressure regulator & pump, sometimes forged internals are needed. Intercoolers are also an important component. Superchargers can make the boost at a lower RPM than a turbocharger can and thus a lot faster 0 to 60 time. In the 1/4 mile, you've got a good bit of distance to make use of the entire rev range. In 0 to 60's, you've got the entire first gear and the low to mid end of 2nd. The WRX and Dodge Neon SRT-4 use turbo's which spool up a little faster (smaller & ligher turbo). This will provide great mid range power at the cost of high end power.
Gearing
Manufacturers make gears on production cars to be fuel efficient and still provide some kick in the pants. I've noticed a few manufacturers have made their gearing to give great numbers in 0 to 60 times. But those tend to be less fuel efficient when it comes to cruising. The same can be said for 1/4 mile times. Generally, manual's have shorter gearing and will give better acceleration times.
I'd go on but I feel my post is long winded already. I'm sure you get the point though and I'm sure others here are capable of elaborating more.
03-06-2003, 08:45 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Well I think getting 300-305 from a SC from base 225 with headers, exhaust, fuel pump, all upgraded isnt a lot to ask for. As far as drive shafts there is a company that makes heavy duty race drive shafts for our front wheel car.
03-06-2003, 08:47 PM
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While we're at it....does anyone know how much boost CompTech's supercharger is providing for the CL-S?
All they say on the site is "screw type blower unit".
They also quote an "additional 54-57 wheel horsepower". Sounds like they're only running 6 to 8 psi or so. Judging by the picture they provide, I don't like how they have the supercharger set up. Granted they didn't have a choice (thanks Honda for putting the intake on the opposite side of the belts). They're loosing some efficiency with that long driveshaft on that supercharger.
All they say on the site is "screw type blower unit".
They also quote an "additional 54-57 wheel horsepower". Sounds like they're only running 6 to 8 psi or so. Judging by the picture they provide, I don't like how they have the supercharger set up. Granted they didn't have a choice (thanks Honda for putting the intake on the opposite side of the belts). They're loosing some efficiency with that long driveshaft on that supercharger.
03-06-2003, 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by NighthawkBlack
Well I think getting 300-305 from a SC from base 225 with headers, exhaust, fuel pump, all upgraded isnt a lot to ask for. As far as drive shafts there is a company that makes heavy duty race drive shafts for our front wheel car.
Well I think getting 300-305 from a SC from base 225 with headers, exhaust, fuel pump, all upgraded isnt a lot to ask for. As far as drive shafts there is a company that makes heavy duty race drive shafts for our front wheel car.
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03-06-2003, 09:09 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I think all your points are valid but I dont think enough thought was given. I hope some other company tries to do something better but if they dont I will have to settle for CT'c SC
03-06-2003, 09:37 PM
#9
If I may make an additional point for the drivetrain section:
That would be in, what is called, a "high polar moment" in a weight shift from front to rear (where the drive wheels aren't)when the gas is mashed.
The exact opposite of when the brakes are hit hard and thus why the front brakes where out first.
That would be in, what is called, a "high polar moment" in a weight shift from front to rear (where the drive wheels aren't)when the gas is mashed.
The exact opposite of when the brakes are hit hard and thus why the front brakes where out first.
03-06-2003, 10:00 PM
#10
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as far as supercharging goes, I think I can chime in, I used to drive a supercharged Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. 3.8L V6. Stock 240HP and 280 lbs*ft torque. A few cheap mods will allow to do 300HP (the pre-production Grand Prix prototype made 300HP)
And does anyone here remember the Buick GNX? It was basically the same 3.8L V6, only nicely turbocharged. It was VERY powerful.
http://www.buickgnx.com/
And does anyone here remember the Buick GNX? It was basically the same 3.8L V6, only nicely turbocharged. It was VERY powerful.
http://www.buickgnx.com/
03-06-2003, 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by Ruski
as far as supercharging goes, I think I can chime in, I used to drive a supercharged Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. 3.8L V6. Stock 240HP and 280 lbs*ft torque. A few cheap mods will allow to do 300HP (the pre-production Grand Prix prototype made 300HP)
And does anyone here remember the Buick GNX? It was basically the same 3.8L V6, only nicely turbocharged. It was VERY powerful.
http://www.buickgnx.com/
as far as supercharging goes, I think I can chime in, I used to drive a supercharged Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. 3.8L V6. Stock 240HP and 280 lbs*ft torque. A few cheap mods will allow to do 300HP (the pre-production Grand Prix prototype made 300HP)
And does anyone here remember the Buick GNX? It was basically the same 3.8L V6, only nicely turbocharged. It was VERY powerful.
http://www.buickgnx.com/
03-06-2003, 10:36 PM
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Yeah, I hear those Audi/VW 1.8T's are pretty strong 
But really, my motor has an iron block and aluminum head. Its pretty stout. The record amount of horsepower at the wheels on a 1.8T bone stock from valve cover to oil pan is 470. Thats 26 psi on some T3/T4 derivative and a small shot o' giggle on top of that. Not bad for 1786 cc's
But really, my motor has an iron block and aluminum head. Its pretty stout. The record amount of horsepower at the wheels on a 1.8T bone stock from valve cover to oil pan is 470. Thats 26 psi on some T3/T4 derivative and a small shot o' giggle on top of that. Not bad for 1786 cc's
03-07-2003, 06:23 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hey so whats your point guys? Those are 6 cylinder cars you are praising. Does that mean because our engine is aluminum, you cant supercharge it and expect to get up 75 more horses with Headers and Exhaust , icebox from a base 225?
03-07-2003, 07:14 AM
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Comptech can get way more power than they advertise, but they want to make a reasonable simple, safe and inexpensive kit. You have to take into account the engine adn drivetrain components when designing a kit for a car. Also as many mentioned, the stock displacement. It's all about pusshing air. 7 psi is half of atmospheric pressure, so it's like multiplying the engines displacemtn by 1.5 (sort of) so if you add 7 psi to a 4 liter v8, it's going to push air like a 6.0 liter engine, while the same on a TLS is going to be more like 4.8 liters. Realize that the TLS engine has hig compression which means with boost you really want to pull back spark timing to avoid pint/knock situations. Tuning a car isn't as easy as slaping on a turbo or SC, there is a lot to it. It takes many R&D hours and there is a lot to consider. Comptech puts out a kit that they know will last many miles and will not put too much stress on the stock internals. If you want a car that is as fast as your describe, you are not talking about a TLS. Go get a beater civic and put $10k into or spend some serious $$$ on an AMG car or someting.
03-07-2003, 09:04 AM
#15
With an all-aluminum engine like in our cars, adding forced induction and turning up the boost would completely fry the engine, no doubt.
The '03 Cobra had to switch back to iron block because when they added the Eaton supercharger with aluminum block, the results were devastating.
Switching to iron block to add forced induction in our cars would throw off the weight distribution, and make it more nose heavy. Now it handles like a boat. Then it will handle like an aircraft carrier.
It's possible to add forced induction on a stock 3.2L as long as you keep the boost within reasonable limits. I saw a supercharged CL-S on the CL forum. As far as I know, it didn't have any internal engine modifications.
Shagura TL --
Yeah, the 3.8L V6 is a peppy one in the Camaro/Firebird. But I would say get the LS1 5.7L V8 if you are gonna buy one.
Bad-ass engine, putting down 290-310 hp at the wheels.
Ray_Khan --
I agree. Without some internal modifications, the engine would probably give up within a couple thousand miles. Plus, I think our 3.2L has 11.0:1 compression? You would have to bring that down a little bit if you want to play it safe with forced induction. Again, more than just bolting on a supercharger or a turbocharger and calling it a day.
The '03 Cobra had to switch back to iron block because when they added the Eaton supercharger with aluminum block, the results were devastating.
Switching to iron block to add forced induction in our cars would throw off the weight distribution, and make it more nose heavy. Now it handles like a boat. Then it will handle like an aircraft carrier.
It's possible to add forced induction on a stock 3.2L as long as you keep the boost within reasonable limits. I saw a supercharged CL-S on the CL forum. As far as I know, it didn't have any internal engine modifications.
Shagura TL --
Yeah, the 3.8L V6 is a peppy one in the Camaro/Firebird. But I would say get the LS1 5.7L V8 if you are gonna buy one.
Bad-ass engine, putting down 290-310 hp at the wheels. Ray_Khan --
I agree. Without some internal modifications, the engine would probably give up within a couple thousand miles. Plus, I think our 3.2L has 11.0:1 compression? You would have to bring that down a little bit if you want to play it safe with forced induction. Again, more than just bolting on a supercharger or a turbocharger and calling it a day.
03-07-2003, 10:12 AM
#16
lover and fighter
Your original post claims you wanted 325 horses with mods for the Type S and 300 or so for the TL-P...
With the dyno's shown on the CL page, you ARE getting that...The last dyno I saw showed the CL-S with h/i/e and the s/c putting down 299 whp...That means your "325" figure is accurate...
If you think about it, a near-luxury, front wheel drive car with 300 whp (TL-S should have similar whp) is fu(k!n insane by today's standards. Moreso, the actual driving performance is what matters...Posts go back and forth but my car with h/i has WASTED a G35, a Passat W8, etc...Look at their hp numbers? Ray_Khan is right--you want more performance than your close to 5.3 sec 1/4 mile with the above mods from your semiluxo Acura, go by an M3 or a C32 or something...With all my mods, I've only spent $34,600 including tax, tag, title and installs and when my warranty runs out, I'll slap $5k (includes install( on the s/c. Less than $40k and sub 5.5 1/4mile--I'll take it any day!
With the dyno's shown on the CL page, you ARE getting that...The last dyno I saw showed the CL-S with h/i/e and the s/c putting down 299 whp...That means your "325" figure is accurate...
If you think about it, a near-luxury, front wheel drive car with 300 whp (TL-S should have similar whp) is fu(k!n insane by today's standards. Moreso, the actual driving performance is what matters...Posts go back and forth but my car with h/i has WASTED a G35, a Passat W8, etc...Look at their hp numbers? Ray_Khan is right--you want more performance than your close to 5.3 sec 1/4 mile with the above mods from your semiluxo Acura, go by an M3 or a C32 or something...With all my mods, I've only spent $34,600 including tax, tag, title and installs and when my warranty runs out, I'll slap $5k (includes install( on the s/c. Less than $40k and sub 5.5 1/4mile--I'll take it any day!
03-07-2003, 10:34 AM
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If you think about it, a near-luxury, front wheel drive car with 300 whp (TL-S should have similar whp) is fu(k!n insane by today's standards. Moreso, the actual driving performance is what matters
Less than $40k and sub 5.5 1/4mile--I'll take it any day!
because if you be runnin 5's for $40k, you are doing something right. But I agree with you, for what you get in a TLS for all around performance, luxury, safety, reliability, looks etc, and if you put a few $$ mods, there aren't many cars that do it all so well for the $$$. But seriously, 300 who is damn good. You can't expect a Z06 killer from a TLS. A CLS 6 speed is another story.
03-07-2003, 10:36 AM
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But really, my motor has an iron block and aluminum head. Its pretty stout. The record amount of horsepower at the wheels on a 1.8T bone stock from valve cover to oil pan is 470. Thats 26 psi on some T3/T4 derivative and a small shot o' giggle on top of that. Not bad for 1786 cc's
not sure if Billy's car is the best example since reliability is being talked about here. How many miles did he have?
03-07-2003, 10:53 AM
#19
Originally posted by Ray_Khan
I think much more than 300 whp in the TLS is plenty...wouldn't want much more in an FWD.
I think much more than 300 whp in the TLS is plenty...wouldn't want much more in an FWD.
I'm assuming you mean sub 5.5 0-60 because if you be runnin 5's for $40k, you are doing something right. But I agree with you, for what you get in a TLS for all around performance, luxury, safety, reliability, looks etc, and if you put a few $$ mods, there aren't many cars that do it all so well for the $$$.
because if you be runnin 5's for $40k, you are doing something right. But I agree with you, for what you get in a TLS for all around performance, luxury, safety, reliability, looks etc, and if you put a few $$ mods, there aren't many cars that do it all so well for the $$$.
Two wrongs do make a right sometimes.
But seriously, 300 who is damn good. You can't expect a Z06 killer from a TLS. A CLS 6 speed is another story.
03-07-2003, 11:19 AM
#20
Lead Footed
Originally posted by Pure Adrenaline
True. If you're looking for a Vette killer, then you're modding the wrong car.
True. If you're looking for a Vette killer, then you're modding the wrong car.
Ruf
03-07-2003, 11:39 AM
#21
lover and fighter
Yeah--0-60 was it...Appears I was getting way ahead of myself...Even the quarter times at 13.9 are seriously strong w/ the auto and a s/c...
I just want someone with the CL-S 6 spd to seriously post about the torque steer w/ a turbo or s/c and having to shift...It's gonna be bad enough with the auto...
I am so happy with the type-s and mods. I'm likely to buy another unless I can stomach ponying up for an AMG variant of some sort. While I love the M3, bimmers always look like a$$ after 3 years...
I've seen plenty of modded IS300's and certainly, the glimpse of the show IS430 was awe inspiring, but it is sooo much smaller than our Acura...
And as I have heard many of you say, I'm with you in never wanting to shell out a pittance of $25,000 for anything American. The overall quality is horrendous...Even a Z06 is unpalatable...
I just want someone with the CL-S 6 spd to seriously post about the torque steer w/ a turbo or s/c and having to shift...It's gonna be bad enough with the auto...
I am so happy with the type-s and mods. I'm likely to buy another unless I can stomach ponying up for an AMG variant of some sort. While I love the M3, bimmers always look like a$$ after 3 years...
I've seen plenty of modded IS300's and certainly, the glimpse of the show IS430 was awe inspiring, but it is sooo much smaller than our Acura...
And as I have heard many of you say, I'm with you in never wanting to shell out a pittance of $25,000 for anything American. The overall quality is horrendous...Even a Z06 is unpalatable...
03-07-2003, 12:30 PM
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This has been a really informative thread to read! Thanks guys!
American build quality is awful especially in terms of the interior. It's nice to finally see that the Big three are now getting the idea that the interior counts just as much as the exterior, as evident in some of the new cars shown at Detrioit in Jan......but I'm still amazed....you know, how can someone spend 50+ on an escalade with 20+" wheels and stand that hideous interior? Compare the escalade's instrument cluster to a IS300. It's like caddy spent five mins trying to copy what the IS has.
All the big three are guilty of it. Go look at the H2 - inside, it looks like a Tahoe....the Plymoth Prowler - same crappy stereo you get in a dodge stratus....and now Ford has even *ruined* the guages on the S-type, they look like them came right out of a Taurus! :yack:
The corvette, man, what a fun car to drive, but inside you only see more plastic at a fisher price toy factory!!! If you're used to driving foreign cars all your life, this stuff sticks out like more than just sore thumb....it's an eyesore.
www.forbes.com has some of the best car reviews out there b/c they're not afraid to say "this interior feels like it was built by a 3-yr old." or "memo to Bob Lutz: add some variety to the interior of a chevy." I highly encourage your read their reviews....
okay, sorry, getting waaaay off topic here. back to superchargers...
American build quality is awful especially in terms of the interior. It's nice to finally see that the Big three are now getting the idea that the interior counts just as much as the exterior, as evident in some of the new cars shown at Detrioit in Jan......but I'm still amazed....you know, how can someone spend 50+ on an escalade with 20+" wheels and stand that hideous interior? Compare the escalade's instrument cluster to a IS300. It's like caddy spent five mins trying to copy what the IS has.
All the big three are guilty of it. Go look at the H2 - inside, it looks like a Tahoe....the Plymoth Prowler - same crappy stereo you get in a dodge stratus....and now Ford has even *ruined* the guages on the S-type, they look like them came right out of a Taurus! :yack:
The corvette, man, what a fun car to drive, but inside you only see more plastic at a fisher price toy factory!!! If you're used to driving foreign cars all your life, this stuff sticks out like more than just sore thumb....it's an eyesore.
www.forbes.com has some of the best car reviews out there b/c they're not afraid to say "this interior feels like it was built by a 3-yr old." or "memo to Bob Lutz: add some variety to the interior of a chevy." I highly encourage your read their reviews....
okay, sorry, getting waaaay off topic here. back to superchargers...
03-07-2003, 03:13 PM
#23
hafids --
Agreed. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people told me they didn't like the interior of my Tahoe. Well, I do. So it's really different for everyone.
One of my friends has a '99 vert Vette. I know how all the magazines say it's "plasticky". Well, ****. I think it's pretty nice. So what, if there's no wood trim? I hate wood trim, anyway. If I could've deleted that option on my TL-S, I would have. I hate wood trims in my cars.
Ok, back to forced induction.
Agreed. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people told me they didn't like the interior of my Tahoe. Well, I do. So it's really different for everyone.
One of my friends has a '99 vert Vette. I know how all the magazines say it's "plasticky". Well, ****. I think it's pretty nice. So what, if there's no wood trim? I hate wood trim, anyway. If I could've deleted that option on my TL-S, I would have. I hate wood trims in my cars.
Ok, back to forced induction.
03-07-2003, 03:15 PM
#24
By the way, the H2 is just that - a Tahoe.
Tahoe chassis, Tahoe front suspension, etc. Suburban rear suspension with Trailblazer steering wheel. They just dug into their parts bin, put some **** together and priced it at 55 grand. Not bad, considering they are probably making at least 25 grand off of each H2.
Tahoe chassis, Tahoe front suspension, etc. Suburban rear suspension with Trailblazer steering wheel. They just dug into their parts bin, put some **** together and priced it at 55 grand. Not bad, considering they are probably making at least 25 grand off of each H2.
03-08-2003, 09:53 AM
#26
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Originally posted by ShaguraTL
While we're at it....does anyone know how much boost CompTech's supercharger is providing for the CL-S?
All they say on the site is "screw type blower unit". They also quote an "additional 54-57 wheel horsepower". Sounds like they're only running 6 to 8 psi or so. Judging by the picture they provide, I don't like how they have the supercharger set up. Granted they didn't have a choice (thanks Honda for putting the intake on the opposite side of the belts). They're loosing some efficiency with that long driveshaft on that supercharger.
While we're at it....does anyone know how much boost CompTech's supercharger is providing for the CL-S?
All they say on the site is "screw type blower unit".
They also quote an "additional 54-57 wheel horsepower". Sounds like they're only running 6 to 8 psi or so. Judging by the picture they provide, I don't like how they have the supercharger set up. Granted they didn't have a choice (thanks Honda for putting the intake on the opposite side of the belts). They're loosing some efficiency with that long driveshaft on that supercharger.
03-12-2003, 11:06 AM
#29
still a Masshole
I also think that comptech might be working on some newer pullies to up the boost (read it somewhere but couldn't find it). I think CT has done a pretty good job getting 295-300whp with only the 3.0-3.5 lbs of boost (even with the headers/icebox). If we look at allmotor's TC I believe he was getting about 350whp (give or take) with somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-6.5 lbs of boost.
300whp is about what....370 at the crank? Thats about a 110hp increase at the crank with headers, icebox and SC on a 6-speed! Its expensive (guessing about $6000-6500 if you do all CT and don't do any of the install yourself) but a decent power increase. This is all at a conservative (and hopefully safe) 3-3.5lbs of boost.
300whp is about what....370 at the crank? Thats about a 110hp increase at the crank with headers, icebox and SC on a 6-speed! Its expensive (guessing about $6000-6500 if you do all CT and don't do any of the install yourself) but a decent power increase. This is all at a conservative (and hopefully safe) 3-3.5lbs of boost.
03-12-2003, 11:39 AM
#31
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is that sub 5.5 0-60 confirmed or just guess work?
03-12-2003, 01:28 PM
#32
lover and fighter
The lack of torque has a lot to do with the 0-60 issues as well, but the s/c adds at least 50 ft/lbs...
I bet it would come down to driver and tires on the 60 time, but it should happen. My dealer advertises that with the Comptech headers, exhaust, and ice-box, the CL-S 6 speed hits 60 in 5.3 seconds...A TL-S with the same mods and the sc oughtta at least do that...
I bet it would come down to driver and tires on the 60 time, but it should happen. My dealer advertises that with the Comptech headers, exhaust, and ice-box, the CL-S 6 speed hits 60 in 5.3 seconds...A TL-S with the same mods and the sc oughtta at least do that...
03-12-2003, 11:33 PM
#33
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If your dream is turbo/sc, and you're buying Honda (or Acura for that matter), you're travelling down the WRONG path. Honda philosophy is to built naturally aspired (NA) cars....ei, no force induction..EVER! Have you ever seen a FI Honda from manufacturer (may be other than the racing team?).
You get your Honda turbo/SC, you'll have to modify it via aftermarkets....then again, the car is not built for FI to begin with so you'll get into many problems (space/install/parts/reliability/warranty/$$$...and the list goes on).
You get your Honda turbo/SC, you'll have to modify it via aftermarkets....then again, the car is not built for FI to begin with so you'll get into many problems (space/install/parts/reliability/warranty/$$$...and the list goes on).
03-13-2003, 08:17 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
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Well this is my philosophy. When I brought my 2000 TL I thought it was the best looking, best equiped car for the money. Then I saw the Honda Inspire and realized they could have did more with it but chose not to since I saw the technology oversees they just figured they would release it 5 years later like getting the new Nintendo system when I was a kid, "they get it first". So I was left with one choice, modding myself. I've been doing that and happy with the results. Almost done, just want more power and I cannot afford a new car. So with that said I will do what I can to get it there.
If we start with 225 getting 300 should not be so hard even with our aluminum engine. SO your saying NSX and Honda S2000 have iron blocks? I've learned after so much moding anything is possible and if done right can be reliable. I was just hoping others had sucess in getting those numbers.
If we start with 225 getting 300 should not be so hard even with our aluminum engine. SO your saying NSX and Honda S2000 have iron blocks? I've learned after so much moding anything is possible and if done right can be reliable. I was just hoping others had sucess in getting those numbers.
03-13-2003, 08:39 AM
#35
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i wouldnt worry too much about our blocks being weak, we honda guys have been slapping turbos and now superchargers on our cars for years(well not really slapping.there has been some thought put into it) yes there is a limitation to doing so but a 300 to 400 hp range on our stock engine is more than possible. the internals on our engine are VERY stout and can handle quite a bit. the typical 4cylinder honda engine can handle 350 to 400 hp without any internal modification is needed.
03-13-2003, 10:46 AM
#36
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i wouldnt worry too much about our blocks being weak, we honda guys have been slapping turbos and now superchargers on our cars for years(well not really slapping.there has been some thought put into it) yes there is a limitation to doing so but a 300 to 400 hp range on our stock engine is more than possible. the internals on our engine are VERY stout and can handle quite a bit. the typical 4cylinder honda engine can handle 350 to 400 hp without any internal modification is needed.
I disagree...the 400 hp civics and tegs that LAST usually have some engine work done. Forged piston/rods/crank. And plenty of honing and head work to increase flow. Usually they also getting some reinforced cylinder walls as well. I wouldnt start dumping big boost into this engine without proper reinforcement. Adding boost means increasing engine temps, having hgh compression and boost means you have to be careful of detonation. This is where engine management comes in and spark timing is critical. Unless you realy know your stuff, you won't even notice minor detonation if it's happening. You will only notice big detonation and by that time it may be too late. Not saying anything isn't possible, just saying to be careful and be realistic when modding. If getting big hp through major forcced induction from any honda engine (or any OEM spec engine for that matter) were reliable, I would think comptech or other major tuners would have some nice kits out there. They all have kits, but nothing for crazy power. They have to worry about liability adn reliablity. I don't see mention of software tuning in most kits out there. They would rther skip this for a few reason. For one it is complicated and expensive. That is my $.02
03-13-2003, 12:06 PM
#37
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Ray_Khan
I disagree...the 400 hp civics and tegs that LAST usually have some engine work done. Forged piston/rods/crank. And plenty of honing and head work to increase flow. Usually they also getting some reinforced cylinder walls as well. I wouldnt start dumping big boost into this engine without proper reinforcement. Adding boost means increasing engine temps, having hgh compression and boost means you have to be careful of detonation. This is where engine management comes in and spark timing is critical. Unless you realy know your stuff, you won't even notice minor detonation if it's happening. You will only notice big detonation and by that time it may be too late. Not saying anything isn't possible, just saying to be careful and be realistic when modding. If getting big hp through major forcced induction from any honda engine (or any OEM spec engine for that matter) were reliable, I would think comptech or other major tuners would have some nice kits out there. They all have kits, but nothing for crazy power. They have to worry about liability adn reliablity. I don't see mention of software tuning in most kits out there. They would rther skip this for a few reason. For one it is complicated and expensive. That is my $.02
I disagree...the 400 hp civics and tegs that LAST usually have some engine work done. Forged piston/rods/crank. And plenty of honing and head work to increase flow. Usually they also getting some reinforced cylinder walls as well. I wouldnt start dumping big boost into this engine without proper reinforcement. Adding boost means increasing engine temps, having hgh compression and boost means you have to be careful of detonation. This is where engine management comes in and spark timing is critical. Unless you realy know your stuff, you won't even notice minor detonation if it's happening. You will only notice big detonation and by that time it may be too late. Not saying anything isn't possible, just saying to be careful and be realistic when modding. If getting big hp through major forcced induction from any honda engine (or any OEM spec engine for that matter) were reliable, I would think comptech or other major tuners would have some nice kits out there. They all have kits, but nothing for crazy power. They have to worry about liability adn reliablity. I don't see mention of software tuning in most kits out there. They would rther skip this for a few reason. For one it is complicated and expensive. That is my $.02
i personally am going to try the 3.5 conversion this summer (if i can find out what parts they used) its cheaper and as much hpor more.
03-13-2003, 02:44 PM
#38
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i wasnt saying every one and that they would last 100k. i was just simply stating with the proper equipement and install a 400 hp 4cylinder is more than possible. i had a 99 civic si with 7 hp shy of 300 hp and it ran perfect on pump gas all year around and it made it to 96k (when i traded it in on my TL) any way the internals are very stout on honda engines so like i said before with the proper kit and instal a 300+ hp engine i dont think is out of the question. just look at the accord concept car. it made 300+ hp NA and they said it was easily achieavable . just my .02
I hear ya bro...I'm not saying honda engines aren't great. THey are, but getting into the 300+ hp club (from a 4 banger) get's tricky and dangerous. You have to know what you are doing and take very good care of the car. Reliability can be there, it's just not eas easy as some might think.
As for the TLS, I think the 3.5 upgrade is the way to go. It will add more lw end tq than the SC and with headers will be awesome. Good luck.
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