Soap Box: To the complainers of road noise:
12-05-2001, 08:35 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Wa
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soap Box: To the complainers of road noise:
I have always claimed that the few people on this board full of complints about the TL's in regards to road noise and in regards to rattles are simply incorrect. I will now provide my proof:
Car & Driver this month has it's top 10 for 2001. When they do this they also print the top and worse performers in various categories. One of them is interior noise level. This year the car with the lowest noise inside the cockpit of any car made was the:
2002 Acura TL Type S
What does this mean: This means that of every car made at this point, the TL is in fact the quietest car made. I have seem may posts from people b$ching and complaining about air and road noise in their TL. You are wrong, as Car & Drive tests show, you are wrong.
Now, lets get to the point... Why is your TL loud? And why does your TL rattle:
I admit that the moon roof is a problem for most, as is the nature of the roof. Other people may have problems due to craftsmanship. I have done a sampling of the people who are complaining most about these 2 items. Looking at most of their signatures you see things printed like: 19" rims, ZR Rated tires, Comptec Springs, Tokico shocks (talk about stiff), sway bars, Exhaust, intake, etc...
You brought your problems upon your self. Your car, like mine is MUCH louder once you got to a low profile ZR rated tire. My TL's is a LOT louder now. I get a LOT more road noise. My TLs with Eibock springs is also a lot rougher on the road. Many of you have much more on then I do. With The stiffening of the suspension and body the car takes a lot harder shock to its frame causing the squeaks. As you stiffen these things your chassis is more likely to contort to the pressure on it.
You have none to blame but yourself. If you want a quite, normal ride then make your car stock again, but stop b$tching about the problems you created here and stop blaming Acura.
Car & Driver this month has it's top 10 for 2001. When they do this they also print the top and worse performers in various categories. One of them is interior noise level. This year the car with the lowest noise inside the cockpit of any car made was the:
2002 Acura TL Type S
What does this mean: This means that of every car made at this point, the TL is in fact the quietest car made. I have seem may posts from people b$ching and complaining about air and road noise in their TL. You are wrong, as Car & Drive tests show, you are wrong.
Now, lets get to the point... Why is your TL loud? And why does your TL rattle:
I admit that the moon roof is a problem for most, as is the nature of the roof. Other people may have problems due to craftsmanship. I have done a sampling of the people who are complaining most about these 2 items. Looking at most of their signatures you see things printed like: 19" rims, ZR Rated tires, Comptec Springs, Tokico shocks (talk about stiff), sway bars, Exhaust, intake, etc...
You brought your problems upon your self. Your car, like mine is MUCH louder once you got to a low profile ZR rated tire. My TL's is a LOT louder now. I get a LOT more road noise. My TLs with Eibock springs is also a lot rougher on the road. Many of you have much more on then I do. With The stiffening of the suspension and body the car takes a lot harder shock to its frame causing the squeaks. As you stiffen these things your chassis is more likely to contort to the pressure on it.
You have none to blame but yourself. If you want a quite, normal ride then make your car stock again, but stop b$tching about the problems you created here and stop blaming Acura.
12-05-2001, 10:00 PM
#2
Drifting
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, you should get a check from Acura for writing that message! 
Seriously, though. I haven't modded my TL-S at all, and I'm telling you it's noisy (and I'm not talking about squeaks and rattles either). I rode in my friend's 02 Toyota Camry and it's way quieter than the TL-S at the same highway speeds.
Now, the TL-S is not excessively noisy; I just think it could be a lot quieter.
Car & Driver can say whatever they want (I haven't read their story), but I doubt that the TL-S is the quietest car in production today. I mean, the quietest of all cars in production? Come on.
Seriously, though. I haven't modded my TL-S at all, and I'm telling you it's noisy (and I'm not talking about squeaks and rattles either). I rode in my friend's 02 Toyota Camry and it's way quieter than the TL-S at the same highway speeds.
Now, the TL-S is not excessively noisy; I just think it could be a lot quieter.
Car & Driver can say whatever they want (I haven't read their story), but I doubt that the TL-S is the quietest car in production today. I mean, the quietest of all cars in production? Come on.
12-05-2001, 10:32 PM
#3
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't believe that for a second. Have you riden in a LS400? I would say that car is WAY more isolated from road and wind noise than ours. Maybe Car and Driver measured the noise at idle...I do have to say that the TL-S is pretty silent at idle, but at 60 much more noise than some other cars.
12-05-2001, 11:21 PM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Wa
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically.
12-05-2001, 11:24 PM
#5
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by daverman
Wow, you should get a check from Acura for writing that message!
Seriously, though. I haven't modded my TL-S at all, and I'm telling you it's noisy (and I'm not talking about squeaks and rattles either). I rode in my friend's 02 Toyota Camry and it's way quieter than the TL-S at the same highway speeds.
Now, the TL-S is not excessively noisy; I just think it could be a lot quieter.
Car & Driver can say whatever they want (I haven't read their story), but I doubt that the TL-S is the quietest car in production today. I mean, the quietest of all cars in production? Come on.
Wow, you should get a check from Acura for writing that message!
Seriously, though. I haven't modded my TL-S at all, and I'm telling you it's noisy (and I'm not talking about squeaks and rattles either). I rode in my friend's 02 Toyota Camry and it's way quieter than the TL-S at the same highway speeds.
Now, the TL-S is not excessively noisy; I just think it could be a lot quieter.
Car & Driver can say whatever they want (I haven't read their story), but I doubt that the TL-S is the quietest car in production today. I mean, the quietest of all cars in production? Come on.
Well... but I still love this car.
12-05-2001, 11:32 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, i think by saying the TL-S is the quiestest production car that's pretty odd, coz' cars like the bimmer 740, mecedes s class, lexus ls430, etc..... they are definitely way quieter.....
in terms of its class, that could be possible though.
in terms of its class, that could be possible though.
Trending Topics
12-06-2001, 12:28 AM
#8
Drifting
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by y2ks2k
I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically.
I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically.
Do they have an online version of this review? What issue is it in?
12-06-2001, 01:25 AM
#9
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not true that the TL-S has a quiet ride.
My grandpa's old Buick ParkAvenue Ultra was way more quiet ride.
First of all, my 2000 TL was a bit quieter than my TL-S, but I think it is because of the low profile tire. We hear much more road noise and we have to push the radio volume up at higher speed.
But, there is a trade off for the noise...SPEED!
My grandpa's old Buick ParkAvenue Ultra was way more quiet ride.
First of all, my 2000 TL was a bit quieter than my TL-S, but I think it is because of the low profile tire. We hear much more road noise and we have to push the radio volume up at higher speed.
But, there is a trade off for the noise...SPEED!
12-06-2001, 07:01 AM
#10
Not a Blowhole
Can we get back to rationality? This is an area in which I have some expertise so please pardon the length of the post.
I believe C&D's testing is suspect.
How does C&D measure? As I recall, they use an SPL meter positioned where the driver's head is - fair enough. But what ANSI weighting scale do they use? A, B, C? Each of these has a different bandwidth, favoring a particular set of criteria. It is easy to measure at idle, whiile rolling is fraught with variables as explained below.
A-weighting rolls off the low and high frequencies - C-weighting is closer to the full freq spectrum.
1) Can we be assured that the test criteria (ANSI weighting scales) were identical?
2) The quality of the measurement devices: I have measured great variation in the accuracy of SPL meters esp below 100 Hz. Unless C&D uses calibrated meters of the same type in all tests, they are meaningless (My RTA is accurate to within .5 dB)
3) Road conditions and wind conditions affect the tests as well. Road surface causes all sorts of sympathetic vibrations which will be caught by the measuring instrument. Unless all tests are done on the same stretch of road, same temperature, same wind conditions, the results are meaningless. Doubt they have that quality control.
4) What spectra are being measured? By that I mean bandwidth. An SPL meter set to average the readings latches on to the loudest sound - if this is 20 Hz, it is barely audible to a human, but displays prominently on the meter. If it is 200 Hz, that is sound easily heard and very annoying. Without a low-pass filter to roll off subsonics, the tests are easily skewed and misinterpreted.
5) We also hear through bone conductivity apparatus - vibrartion and harshness are picked up by our bodies and mixed into the total audible noise - the meter cannot measure that at all.
I have run RTA (real-time analysis) of car noise many times over the last ten years, and currently have a very accurate portable unit. (You may recall I measured the Bose system a while back). I can assure you that there is a tremendouys amount of low freq (below 50 Hz) acoustic energy produced in a car. Let's say you have an LS400 and a TL - The LS400 may be (and having owned one, I believe it is) quieter in the audble range than my TL. But the V8 may produce more low freq energy, which the meter cannot distinguish from lower midrange energy. So the LS400 is "measured" as noisier when it is in fact quieter according to more important cirteria.
If it were I, I would measure:
1) With a low-pass filter to reduce low freq energy
2) Do a RTA of the entire audible spectrum looking for spikes
3) Only measure under identical road and wind conditions
Then you might have something.
Back to the personal anecdote mode: I think the TL is quiet, but nowhere near as quiet as my Lexus was, thoug quieter than my BMW 3-series.
I believe C&D's testing is suspect.
How does C&D measure? As I recall, they use an SPL meter positioned where the driver's head is - fair enough. But what ANSI weighting scale do they use? A, B, C? Each of these has a different bandwidth, favoring a particular set of criteria. It is easy to measure at idle, whiile rolling is fraught with variables as explained below.
A-weighting rolls off the low and high frequencies - C-weighting is closer to the full freq spectrum.
1) Can we be assured that the test criteria (ANSI weighting scales) were identical?
2) The quality of the measurement devices: I have measured great variation in the accuracy of SPL meters esp below 100 Hz. Unless C&D uses calibrated meters of the same type in all tests, they are meaningless (My RTA is accurate to within .5 dB)
3) Road conditions and wind conditions affect the tests as well. Road surface causes all sorts of sympathetic vibrations which will be caught by the measuring instrument. Unless all tests are done on the same stretch of road, same temperature, same wind conditions, the results are meaningless. Doubt they have that quality control.
4) What spectra are being measured? By that I mean bandwidth. An SPL meter set to average the readings latches on to the loudest sound - if this is 20 Hz, it is barely audible to a human, but displays prominently on the meter. If it is 200 Hz, that is sound easily heard and very annoying. Without a low-pass filter to roll off subsonics, the tests are easily skewed and misinterpreted.
5) We also hear through bone conductivity apparatus - vibrartion and harshness are picked up by our bodies and mixed into the total audible noise - the meter cannot measure that at all.
I have run RTA (real-time analysis) of car noise many times over the last ten years, and currently have a very accurate portable unit. (You may recall I measured the Bose system a while back). I can assure you that there is a tremendouys amount of low freq (below 50 Hz) acoustic energy produced in a car. Let's say you have an LS400 and a TL - The LS400 may be (and having owned one, I believe it is) quieter in the audble range than my TL. But the V8 may produce more low freq energy, which the meter cannot distinguish from lower midrange energy. So the LS400 is "measured" as noisier when it is in fact quieter according to more important cirteria.
If it were I, I would measure:
1) With a low-pass filter to reduce low freq energy
2) Do a RTA of the entire audible spectrum looking for spikes
3) Only measure under identical road and wind conditions
Then you might have something.
Back to the personal anecdote mode: I think the TL is quiet, but nowhere near as quiet as my Lexus was, thoug quieter than my BMW 3-series.
12-06-2001, 08:07 AM
#11
O.G.
I also don't believe that the TL-S is the quietest car.
About toyota/lexus, their cars were made for more luxury than sport. That's why it is so quiet inside. The TL-S is more sporty than luxury and therefore more noisy (but not a lot).
About toyota/lexus, their cars were made for more luxury than sport. That's why it is so quiet inside. The TL-S is more sporty than luxury and therefore more noisy (but not a lot).
12-06-2001, 09:05 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stop B!tchin and just drive your damn car! 
If you want your car as quiet as a Camry go get one and you can go b!tch at the Camry forum about how much slower it is compared to your "Noisy" TL.
Yeah a Lexus, LS400/430 is quieter, but it also costs alot more than our TL's.
Like i've said before, some people just have to b!tch about something. You know why everyone complains about sqeaks/rattles? Thats b/c its the only thing they can find wrong. Go troll other forums and see what they complain about. Almost all of them have a serious gripe with their car, and its not rattles and squeaks.
This wasnt directed to any one individual, just something i wanted to say.
If you want your car as quiet as a Camry go get one and you can go b!tch at the Camry forum about how much slower it is compared to your "Noisy" TL.
Yeah a Lexus, LS400/430 is quieter, but it also costs alot more than our TL's.
Like i've said before, some people just have to b!tch about something. You know why everyone complains about sqeaks/rattles? Thats b/c its the only thing they can find wrong. Go troll other forums and see what they complain about. Almost all of them have a serious gripe with their car, and its not rattles and squeaks.
This wasnt directed to any one individual, just something i wanted to say.
12-06-2001, 09:49 AM
#13
f-a-b-o-l-o-u-s
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought that C&D measured decibel ratings (not sound pressure level). And they measure 3 things: idle, cruising (70mph), and full throttle acceleration.
12-06-2001, 10:36 AM
#14
Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Western MA
Posts: 2,157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, they measure dB readings, and remember that award for the TL-S being the quietest is only for cars measured or tested this past calendar year. So 2000 model years and older are not included. I'm sure there are quieter cars out there, but none that they tested this year. And even if their testing is flawed (final resulting number is incorrect), as long as they conduct the test the same in all the cars, then at least the vehicle in question is correct, even if the numbers are wrong. That is, the TL-S is quieter in relation to all other the other cars tested this year, regardless of the actual dB readings.
12-06-2001, 12:14 PM
#15
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Mundelein, IL
Age: 61
Posts: 1,687
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
2 Posts
Originally posted by Road Rage
Can we get back to rationality? This is an area in which I have some expertise so please pardon the length of the post.
I believe C&D's testing is suspect.
How does C&D measure? As I recall, they use an SPL meter positioned where the driver's head is - fair enough. But what ANSI weighting scale do they use? A, B, C? Each of these has a different bandwidth, favoring a particular set of criteria. It is easy to measure at idle, whiile rolling is fraught with variables as explained below.
A-weighting rolls off the low and high frequencies - C-weighting is closer to the full freq spectrum.
1) Can we be assured that the test criteria (ANSI weighting scales) were identical?
2) The quality of the measurement devices: I have measured great variation in the accuracy of SPL meters esp below 100 Hz. Unless C&D uses calibrated meters of the same type in all tests, they are meaningless (My RTA is accurate to within .5 dB)
3) Road conditions and wind conditions affect the tests as well. Road surface causes all sorts of sympathetic vibrations which will be caught by the measuring instrument. Unless all tests are done on the same stretch of road, same temperature, same wind conditions, the results are meaningless. Doubt they have that quality control.
4) What spectra are being measured? By that I mean bandwidth. An SPL meter set to average the readings latches on to the loudest sound - if this is 20 Hz, it is barely audible to a human, but displays prominently on the meter. If it is 200 Hz, that is sound easily heard and very annoying. Without a low-pass filter to roll off subsonics, the tests are easily skewed and misinterpreted.
5) We also hear through bone conductivity apparatus - vibrartion and harshness are picked up by our bodies and mixed into the total audible noise - the meter cannot measure that at all.
I have run RTA (real-time analysis) of car noise many times over the last ten years, and currently have a very accurate portable unit. (You may recall I measured the Bose system a while back). I can assure you that there is a tremendouys amount of low freq (below 50 Hz) acoustic energy produced in a car. Let's say you have an LS400 and a TL - The LS400 may be (and having owned one, I believe it is) quieter in the audble range than my TL. But the V8 may produce more low freq energy, which the meter cannot distinguish from lower midrange energy. So the LS400 is "measured" as noisier when it is in fact quieter according to more important cirteria.
If it were I, I would measure:
1) With a low-pass filter to reduce low freq energy
2) Do a RTA of the entire audible spectrum looking for spikes
3) Only measure under identical road and wind conditions
Then you might have something.
Back to the personal anecdote mode: I think the TL is quiet, but nowhere near as quiet as my Lexus was, thoug quieter than my BMW 3-series.
Can we get back to rationality? This is an area in which I have some expertise so please pardon the length of the post.
I believe C&D's testing is suspect.
How does C&D measure? As I recall, they use an SPL meter positioned where the driver's head is - fair enough. But what ANSI weighting scale do they use? A, B, C? Each of these has a different bandwidth, favoring a particular set of criteria. It is easy to measure at idle, whiile rolling is fraught with variables as explained below.
A-weighting rolls off the low and high frequencies - C-weighting is closer to the full freq spectrum.
1) Can we be assured that the test criteria (ANSI weighting scales) were identical?
2) The quality of the measurement devices: I have measured great variation in the accuracy of SPL meters esp below 100 Hz. Unless C&D uses calibrated meters of the same type in all tests, they are meaningless (My RTA is accurate to within .5 dB)
3) Road conditions and wind conditions affect the tests as well. Road surface causes all sorts of sympathetic vibrations which will be caught by the measuring instrument. Unless all tests are done on the same stretch of road, same temperature, same wind conditions, the results are meaningless. Doubt they have that quality control.
4) What spectra are being measured? By that I mean bandwidth. An SPL meter set to average the readings latches on to the loudest sound - if this is 20 Hz, it is barely audible to a human, but displays prominently on the meter. If it is 200 Hz, that is sound easily heard and very annoying. Without a low-pass filter to roll off subsonics, the tests are easily skewed and misinterpreted.
5) We also hear through bone conductivity apparatus - vibrartion and harshness are picked up by our bodies and mixed into the total audible noise - the meter cannot measure that at all.
I have run RTA (real-time analysis) of car noise many times over the last ten years, and currently have a very accurate portable unit. (You may recall I measured the Bose system a while back). I can assure you that there is a tremendouys amount of low freq (below 50 Hz) acoustic energy produced in a car. Let's say you have an LS400 and a TL - The LS400 may be (and having owned one, I believe it is) quieter in the audble range than my TL. But the V8 may produce more low freq energy, which the meter cannot distinguish from lower midrange energy. So the LS400 is "measured" as noisier when it is in fact quieter according to more important cirteria.
If it were I, I would measure:
1) With a low-pass filter to reduce low freq energy
2) Do a RTA of the entire audible spectrum looking for spikes
3) Only measure under identical road and wind conditions
Then you might have something.
Back to the personal anecdote mode: I think the TL is quiet, but nowhere near as quiet as my Lexus was, thoug quieter than my BMW 3-series.
12-06-2001, 08:54 PM
#19
Drifting
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by my2sense
I thought that C&D measured decibel ratings (not sound pressure level).
I thought that C&D measured decibel ratings (not sound pressure level).
12-07-2001, 12:23 AM
#20
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA
Age: 60
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Soap Box: To the complainers of road noise:
Originally posted by y2ks2k
This year the car with the lowest noise inside the cockpit of any car made was the:
2002 Acura TL Type S
What does this mean
This year the car with the lowest noise inside the cockpit of any car made was the:
2002 Acura TL Type S
What does this mean
Why do people get so offended when we voice our opinions in this forum. What did I just say? FORUM. If you have no interest in my squeaks and rattles, don't read the posts that are entitled, "Squeaks and rattles."
have a nice day.
12-07-2001, 02:47 AM
#21
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Y2ks2K
What's interesting is your telling people to stop b!tching and complaining about their TL-S.
Well, I'm here to tell you...Stop b!tching and complaining about those people and let them post what ever the heck they want to post about.
If you care so much about it, become a friggin moderator and delete their post. You can start by deleting mine I guess.
Another thing, read what Road Rage had to say. It makes a lot of sense, but if you don't want to read it...the bottom line is everything is relative, just like road/wind noise. Shoot, my TL is much quieter than my old Ford, but no comparison to my mother's Mercedes.
I understand your comment about tires, lowering your car, or whatever, but not everyone that said something negative about road/wind noise had modifications, so don't have a cow man. Chill out and don't read the posts that have the word "noise" in them
One more thing. I challenge you to test drive other cars. Try out a Mercedes E or S class. Try a BMW 3,5,7 series. Shoot, try Lexus or Infinity or whatever you want. Then come back and tell me "I still naively believe in C&D 100% and that the Acura Tl-S is the quietest car in production" I'd like to see that.
What's interesting is your telling people to stop b!tching and complaining about their TL-S.
Well, I'm here to tell you...Stop b!tching and complaining about those people and let them post what ever the heck they want to post about.
If you care so much about it, become a friggin moderator and delete their post. You can start by deleting mine I guess.
Another thing, read what Road Rage had to say. It makes a lot of sense, but if you don't want to read it...the bottom line is everything is relative, just like road/wind noise. Shoot, my TL is much quieter than my old Ford, but no comparison to my mother's Mercedes.
I understand your comment about tires, lowering your car, or whatever, but not everyone that said something negative about road/wind noise had modifications, so don't have a cow man. Chill out and don't read the posts that have the word "noise" in them
One more thing. I challenge you to test drive other cars. Try out a Mercedes E or S class. Try a BMW 3,5,7 series. Shoot, try Lexus or Infinity or whatever you want. Then come back and tell me "I still naively believe in C&D 100% and that the Acura Tl-S is the quietest car in production" I'd like to see that.
12-07-2001, 03:12 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yo ymckon, word.
Wash and Wax...word up to you too man...this is definitely a forum for opinions.
Coffeefingers...that be funny man.
NBPTL...I don't they are biatching man. They just don't agree with Car and Driver and with that Y2K fella. they just comparin cars man.
Road Rage...I have no idea what the fock you said, but that was some cool s#it. You're just too smart for me, but yeah I agree with you too.
Y2K fella...you not cool at all man. You bedda learn to check yo self foo. Tellin people that they all wrong and S#it is the same as tellin em they be lying. I know I ain't lyin when I say that my CL-S is not the quietest ride I've been in...even when it was stock so step off man.
Wash and Wax...word up to you too man...this is definitely a forum for opinions.
Coffeefingers...that be funny man.
NBPTL...I don't they are biatching man. They just don't agree with Car and Driver and with that Y2K fella. they just comparin cars man.
Road Rage...I have no idea what the fock you said, but that was some cool s#it. You're just too smart for me, but yeah I agree with you too.
Y2K fella...you not cool at all man. You bedda learn to check yo self foo. Tellin people that they all wrong and S#it is the same as tellin em they be lying. I know I ain't lyin when I say that my CL-S is not the quietest ride I've been in...even when it was stock so step off man.
12-07-2001, 07:24 AM
#23
Not a Blowhole
Daverman: You are of course correct. dB are the units measured by the SPL meter, so the post questioning it is confused.
I love the way these thread degenerate back to "whatever"....
Let me break down my previous post for the impaired:
Unless C&D specifies the measurement criteria and performs them under nearly identical road conditions and wind velocity, its stated "Quietest Car" is sheer nonsense and not worth jacksh*T.
I love the way these thread degenerate back to "whatever"....
Let me break down my previous post for the impaired:
Unless C&D specifies the measurement criteria and performs them under nearly identical road conditions and wind velocity, its stated "Quietest Car" is sheer nonsense and not worth jacksh*T.
12-07-2001, 09:44 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: tx
Posts: 973
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Road Noize
Originally posted by coffeefingers
Dude,
More car noise = turn the friggin' stereo louder.
Girlfriend/wife talks too much when you're driving = turn the friggin' stereo EVEN LOUDER.
Dude,
More car noise = turn the friggin' stereo louder.
Girlfriend/wife talks too much when you're driving = turn the friggin' stereo EVEN LOUDER.
amen.
12-07-2001, 09:51 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: tx
Posts: 973
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Road Rage
Unless C&D specifies the measurement criteria and performs them under nearly identical road conditions and wind velocity, its stated "Quietest Car" is sheer nonsense and not worth jacksh*T.
Unless C&D specifies the measurement criteria and performs them under nearly identical road conditions and wind velocity, its stated "Quietest Car" is sheer nonsense and not worth jacksh*T.
jajaja, funny how some ppl just dont get it...feeble minds i guess....but i understand exactly what ya mean...
here's a though, why not use a wind tunnel to measure this, and maybe retrofit a conveyor belt to actually run the car at the same time so all 4 wheels turn and u get a pretty good simulation of actual driving. if that cant be done for some reason...at least using something like a dyno to roll the rear wheels would probably suffice to get that engine noise going....but i have a great idea which is very scientific...its all about repeatability in exact same circumstances
12-07-2001, 10:31 AM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Y2ks2K,
You trippin' dawg. That was a useless and stupid post. I have a stock 01 TL-S and I think it is quiet compared to most cars on the road, but compared to my CL 500...it is noisy. THe motor noise is a bit loud and the chassis is weak. THats why there are creaks and rattles.
You drive all hondas (it seems) which suffer from weenie chassis (except s2000). Try drivin a benz or bmw...they are like a vault rolling on wheels. Solid chassis.
You trippin' dawg. That was a useless and stupid post. I have a stock 01 TL-S and I think it is quiet compared to most cars on the road, but compared to my CL 500...it is noisy. THe motor noise is a bit loud and the chassis is weak. THats why there are creaks and rattles.
You drive all hondas (it seems) which suffer from weenie chassis (except s2000). Try drivin a benz or bmw...they are like a vault rolling on wheels. Solid chassis.
12-07-2001, 11:50 AM
#27
Advanced
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This should provide some insight (just got C&D yesterday night.)
1. Cars must be under 66K. Not just base or something like that, so some E classes out, S-class and LS430 are out.
2. Cars have to have been tested in 2000.
dB or dBA (human threshold screened) are the same as SPL, but unlike your speakers (a la Road Rage) or industrial equipment (in my case) you can't really get 1m away. I've had 2-3 dB differences in meters (which is 60-100% more sound energy.) I'm betting they have a $300 meter with a foam cap and they're just sitting in the car.
1. Cars must be under 66K. Not just base or something like that, so some E classes out, S-class and LS430 are out.
2. Cars have to have been tested in 2000.
dB or dBA (human threshold screened) are the same as SPL, but unlike your speakers (a la Road Rage) or industrial equipment (in my case) you can't really get 1m away. I've had 2-3 dB differences in meters (which is 60-100% more sound energy.) I'm betting they have a $300 meter with a foam cap and they're just sitting in the car.
12-07-2001, 04:47 PM
#28
Suzuka Master
chime...
At least you TLS guys *don't* the have CLS side-view mirrors (with their noise from air turbulence at higher speeds)
Toss in psychoacoustics (study of human sound perception), and one person’s "quiet" is another person's "noisy" (and there are also issues about how different people [with age, genetics, and other issues] perceive sounds frequencies and/or intensities and noise. (I believe Road Rage touched upon this…)
There was this bashing of ZR rated tires -- what does speed rating have to do with noise?
Tires can also be stickier than stock (and designed for higher speed) without necessarily being noisier than stock.
A lowering spring with proper damper/shock could actually reduce noise…
Now toss-in production variances in areas of door and window sealing – oh boy…
$0.02
-end chime-
At least you TLS guys *don't* the have CLS side-view mirrors (with their noise from air turbulence at higher speeds)
Toss in psychoacoustics (study of human sound perception), and one person’s "quiet" is another person's "noisy" (and there are also issues about how different people [with age, genetics, and other issues] perceive sounds frequencies and/or intensities and noise. (I believe Road Rage touched upon this…)
There was this bashing of ZR rated tires -- what does speed rating have to do with noise?
Tires can also be stickier than stock (and designed for higher speed) without necessarily being noisier than stock.
A lowering spring with proper damper/shock could actually reduce noise…
Now toss-in production variances in areas of door and window sealing – oh boy…
$0.02
-end chime-
12-07-2001, 07:21 PM
#29
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Wa
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see we have a bunch of educated posters on this board. Can someone interprete some of the posts up there?
Some of you have really good arguments...
Others: Again, take your complaints up with Car&Driver.
Some of you have really good arguments...
Others: Again, take your complaints up with Car&Driver.
12-07-2001, 07:34 PM
#30
Not a Blowhole
Y2K: Be glad to, but isn't your request a bit backward? How can we possibloy begin to know what you do not understand and need to have interpreted?
State your questiona and I for one will do my best.
State your questiona and I for one will do my best.
12-08-2001, 12:49 PM
#32
Advanced
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Age: 52
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a guy whose household owned a Honda, drove other Acuras/Hondas, and sold Toyotas (as well as had a chance to compare noise levels with trade-ins), I noticed Honda puts a low criteria in muffling road noise. Actually over the years Honda seems to have been perfectly content designing cars with an overall noise level that's mid-pack in their respective classes.
Over the past few years, Honda in their pursuit of a low NVH goal made first popular by the Lexus and early 90s Toyotas, has begun to make their cars quiet overall but road noise seems to be the last of their concerns still. The 1998-2000 Accord as commented by Consumers Reports has moderate levels of road noise and for 2001 finally the road noise was muffled some more.
I think so far of all the noise sources (road, wind, engine, exhaust, accessory, other...), Honda has done a good job with everything but road noise. Despite their recent efforts, they still need a bit more to attain Toyota/Lexus levels of road noise isolation.
Finally it may not be Honda's concern anyways to be the quietest from the standpoint of road noise. And in some cases the actual overall level may be low but the source perceived to be the loudest may actually be the road noise. I sure know that some complain Lexus cars have some wind ruffling around the A-pillars but Lexus has done such a fantastic job isolating everything else that the only sound one hears is the muted wind rush.
Over the past few years, Honda in their pursuit of a low NVH goal made first popular by the Lexus and early 90s Toyotas, has begun to make their cars quiet overall but road noise seems to be the last of their concerns still. The 1998-2000 Accord as commented by Consumers Reports has moderate levels of road noise and for 2001 finally the road noise was muffled some more.
I think so far of all the noise sources (road, wind, engine, exhaust, accessory, other...), Honda has done a good job with everything but road noise. Despite their recent efforts, they still need a bit more to attain Toyota/Lexus levels of road noise isolation.
Finally it may not be Honda's concern anyways to be the quietest from the standpoint of road noise. And in some cases the actual overall level may be low but the source perceived to be the loudest may actually be the road noise. I sure know that some complain Lexus cars have some wind ruffling around the A-pillars but Lexus has done such a fantastic job isolating everything else that the only sound one hears is the muted wind rush.
12-08-2001, 01:26 PM
#33
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Wa
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by STAGED
As a guy whose household owned a Honda, drove other Acuras/Hondas, and sold Toyotas (as well as had a chance to compare noise levels with trade-ins), I noticed Honda puts a low criteria in muffling road noise. Actually over the years Honda seems to have been perfectly content designing cars with an overall noise level that's mid-pack in their respective classes.
Over the past few years, Honda in their pursuit of a low NVH goal made first popular by the Lexus and early 90s Toyotas, has begun to make their cars quiet overall but road noise seems to be the last of their concerns still. The 1998-2000 Accord as commented by Consumers Reports has moderate levels of road noise and for 2001 finally the road noise was muffled some more.
I think so far of all the noise sources (road, wind, engine, exhaust, accessory, other...), Honda has done a good job with everything but road noise. Despite their recent efforts, they still need a bit more to attain Toyota/Lexus levels of road noise isolation.
Finally it may not be Honda's concern anyways to be the quietest from the standpoint of road noise. And in some cases the actual overall level may be low but the source perceived to be the loudest may actually be the road noise. I sure know that some complain Lexus cars have some wind ruffling around the A-pillars but Lexus has done such a fantastic job isolating everything else that the only sound one hears is the muted wind rush.
As a guy whose household owned a Honda, drove other Acuras/Hondas, and sold Toyotas (as well as had a chance to compare noise levels with trade-ins), I noticed Honda puts a low criteria in muffling road noise. Actually over the years Honda seems to have been perfectly content designing cars with an overall noise level that's mid-pack in their respective classes.
Over the past few years, Honda in their pursuit of a low NVH goal made first popular by the Lexus and early 90s Toyotas, has begun to make their cars quiet overall but road noise seems to be the last of their concerns still. The 1998-2000 Accord as commented by Consumers Reports has moderate levels of road noise and for 2001 finally the road noise was muffled some more.
I think so far of all the noise sources (road, wind, engine, exhaust, accessory, other...), Honda has done a good job with everything but road noise. Despite their recent efforts, they still need a bit more to attain Toyota/Lexus levels of road noise isolation.
Finally it may not be Honda's concern anyways to be the quietest from the standpoint of road noise. And in some cases the actual overall level may be low but the source perceived to be the loudest may actually be the road noise. I sure know that some complain Lexus cars have some wind ruffling around the A-pillars but Lexus has done such a fantastic job isolating everything else that the only sound one hears is the muted wind rush.
I agree... The largest complaint I had of all of the Honda models you see that I owned below was loud road noise. My CRV that we currently own is so dam loud that I hate it. However, the Acura division has been touting the technologies that it uses to reduce noise for many years (in Acura models).
12-09-2001, 06:50 AM
#34
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,418
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
y2ks2k:
HA ha ha ha ha ha ha....
" I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically."
That's really interesting...having such enormously blind faith. Wow...well uhm I'm here to tell you my car was totally stock for about 2 weeks and I had 2 separate squeaks in it, one nice throaty SQUEAK! and a high pitched just-stepped-on-a-mouse squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak!. I find it funny that you call their studies scientific, but I don't want to make this post too long. I will say though since there are a lot of people on this forum with no squeaks, and a lot with...it ever occur to you that they got a squeakless car? Because both types seem to exist. I think at times my Acura TL-S means Acura TL-S(queak). You realize in true science you actually would have tested a LOT of different cars of the same make/model/year to determine this...
Austin519
HA ha ha ha ha ha ha....
" I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically."
That's really interesting...having such enormously blind faith. Wow...well uhm I'm here to tell you my car was totally stock for about 2 weeks and I had 2 separate squeaks in it, one nice throaty SQUEAK! and a high pitched just-stepped-on-a-mouse squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak!. I find it funny that you call their studies scientific, but I don't want to make this post too long. I will say though since there are a lot of people on this forum with no squeaks, and a lot with...it ever occur to you that they got a squeakless car? Because both types seem to exist. I think at times my Acura TL-S means Acura TL-S(queak). You realize in true science you actually would have tested a LOT of different cars of the same make/model/year to determine this...
Austin519
12-09-2001, 11:13 AM
#35
I like Car & Driver, I like my TL-S... but
The NORMAL road noise in this vehicle is higher than my two previous VW Passat's and prior to that two previous Nissan Maxima's.
Most of the noise I find objectionable is probably due to the stock tires, not the vehicle. Some of it is due to the stiffer suspension, and I asked for that when I selected the type-S.
The NORMAL road noise in this vehicle is higher than my two previous VW Passat's and prior to that two previous Nissan Maxima's.
Most of the noise I find objectionable is probably due to the stock tires, not the vehicle. Some of it is due to the stiffer suspension, and I asked for that when I selected the type-S.
12-09-2001, 11:28 AM
#36
Not a Blowhole
Well, C&D probably has more innate scientific knowledge about pyscho-acoustics than the average A-TL Forum contributor, but I would go one on one with any of them on this topic any time, any place. The guys there who have engineering backgrounds (such as Dennis Simanaitis) have mechanical, not electrical, engineering backgrounds and pro. experience with cars, not sound. My degree is in EE and audio, so I have a bit of cojones in this discipline.
I tire of the speculation - I am going to run RTA analyses of the noise spectrum and report back - as I did measuring the frequency response of the Bose system a while back. We will see.
I tire of the speculation - I am going to run RTA analyses of the noise spectrum and report back - as I did measuring the frequency response of the Bose system a while back. We will see.
12-09-2001, 12:03 PM
#37
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Wa
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Austin519
y2ks2k:
HA ha ha ha ha ha ha....
" I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically."
That's really interesting...having such enormously blind faith. Wow...well uhm I'm here to tell you my car was totally stock for about 2 weeks and I had 2 separate squeaks in it, one nice throaty SQUEAK! and a high pitched just-stepped-on-a-mouse squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak!. I find it funny that you call their studies scientific, but I don't want to make this post too long. I will say though since there are a lot of people on this forum with no squeaks, and a lot with...it ever occur to you that they got a squeakless car? Because both types seem to exist. I think at times my Acura TL-S means Acura TL-S(queak). You realize in true science you actually would have tested a LOT of different cars of the same make/model/year to determine this...
Austin519
y2ks2k:
HA ha ha ha ha ha ha....
" I can tell you this, I trust the leader in the car industry (Car & Driver) more then anything that you can possibly say against them. Any arguments about their testing methods should be taken up with them. I however as a 10 year subscriber trust their scientific studies almost empirically."
That's really interesting...having such enormously blind faith. Wow...well uhm I'm here to tell you my car was totally stock for about 2 weeks and I had 2 separate squeaks in it, one nice throaty SQUEAK! and a high pitched just-stepped-on-a-mouse squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak!. I find it funny that you call their studies scientific, but I don't want to make this post too long. I will say though since there are a lot of people on this forum with no squeaks, and a lot with...it ever occur to you that they got a squeakless car? Because both types seem to exist. I think at times my Acura TL-S means Acura TL-S(queak). You realize in true science you actually would have tested a LOT of different cars of the same make/model/year to determine this...
Austin519
Not really. I have simply found over the past 15 years that people like you will praise a magazine when its "right" for you and when they say something you don’t think, your claim is that the magazine is getting paid by its advertisers. Maybe its an education thing, many people fail to understand the scientific method and as some point you have to put away your own bias's and listen to someone such as Car & Driver who has 50 years in the industry and trust what they are doing. It probably took me 5 years of being a subscriber before I really began to trust the magazine.
Please... ignorance is bliss... open your mind.... Educate yourself before you enter arguments....
12-10-2001, 02:43 AM
#38
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,418
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Road Rage:
A man of my own calling...I'm like you in terms of educational background
Onward Oscilloscope!!
y2ks2k:
Interesting...I've commented below...
"Not really. I have simply found over the past 15 years that people like you will praise a magazine when its "right" for you and when they say something you don’t think, your claim is that the magazine is getting paid by its advertisers."
Ha ha ha....yeah uhm I'm sorry I fail to see where you're basing a judgment on "people like me" when you don't even know me...and when this is the first time on this forum I have ever even talked about a magazine's opinion. I'm equally confused as to where you found me saying the mag was paid by advertisers...when in fact I was not critiquing the magazine at all...just their scientific method of analysis...a method which I have pointed out a flaw in and one which you don't even begin to explain (I assume because you can't).
Now, since you don't have any idea about people like me, or who I exactly am in this respect...I forgive you for saying the next part...saying I'm a fair-weather fan in terms of magazines. I am more than happy to critique any magazine based on its methods of analysis, and the people that follow those magazines and their flawed analyses as if it were a religion (such as a self proclaimed zombie like yourself). I've been reading Car Stereo Review since I was 11, and I'm very good friends with a lot of people up there and agree with quite a lot of what they say, but I still write in all the time or call up Bill Burton and tell them some test or review was awful if I think they pulled it out of their butts...
"Maybe its an education thing, many people fail to understand the scientific method and as some point you have to put away your own bias's and listen to someone such as Car & Driver who has 50 years in the industry and trust what they are doing. It probably took me 5 years of being a subscriber before I really began to trust the magazine."
Hmm...maybe it is a scientific thing. Yeah, a guy who's in college, in the Computer Engineering Honors Program, pursuing a double major, with enough physics and chemistry for a minor in both...yeah definitely I don't understand the scientific method (hahaha...you're just hilarious). I have no bias, I read Car and Driver, and think they do a lot of good tests. But you need to take their reviews with a grain of salt, or in this case, a barrel. And to be honest...I'm not impressed that you sold your scientific soul to them after only 5 years, if at all. That's definitely not something I'd brag about.
"Please... ignorance is bliss... open your mind.... Educate yourself before you enter arguments..."
Again, you're a funny guy. This wasn't at first anything against you explicitly...but you've picked the wrong guy to blame his disagreement with your opinions upon lack of education. Bad approach. Ignorance may be bliss for you, happy to accept everything that C&D puts out whether it's one of their best tests, or one of their worse...and worse yet just accepting it as fact when even the guys up there will tell you that their tests are not to be generalized to everything, just to provide another point of view. But for me, ignorance is ignorance, and the true scientific method, applied correctly to science and experiments, is bliss. I have my 8th grade science book in my closet somewhere if you need me to copy over for you what the scientific method you allude to is because I assure you, accepting one test as fact is anything BUT what the scientific method says...I suggest you go back to school for a few years...
Austin519
A man of my own calling...I'm like you in terms of educational background
Onward Oscilloscope!!
y2ks2k:
Interesting...I've commented below...
"Not really. I have simply found over the past 15 years that people like you will praise a magazine when its "right" for you and when they say something you don’t think, your claim is that the magazine is getting paid by its advertisers."
Ha ha ha....yeah uhm I'm sorry I fail to see where you're basing a judgment on "people like me" when you don't even know me...and when this is the first time on this forum I have ever even talked about a magazine's opinion. I'm equally confused as to where you found me saying the mag was paid by advertisers...when in fact I was not critiquing the magazine at all...just their scientific method of analysis...a method which I have pointed out a flaw in and one which you don't even begin to explain (I assume because you can't).
Now, since you don't have any idea about people like me, or who I exactly am in this respect...I forgive you for saying the next part...saying I'm a fair-weather fan in terms of magazines. I am more than happy to critique any magazine based on its methods of analysis, and the people that follow those magazines and their flawed analyses as if it were a religion (such as a self proclaimed zombie like yourself). I've been reading Car Stereo Review since I was 11, and I'm very good friends with a lot of people up there and agree with quite a lot of what they say, but I still write in all the time or call up Bill Burton and tell them some test or review was awful if I think they pulled it out of their butts...
"Maybe its an education thing, many people fail to understand the scientific method and as some point you have to put away your own bias's and listen to someone such as Car & Driver who has 50 years in the industry and trust what they are doing. It probably took me 5 years of being a subscriber before I really began to trust the magazine."
Hmm...maybe it is a scientific thing. Yeah, a guy who's in college, in the Computer Engineering Honors Program, pursuing a double major, with enough physics and chemistry for a minor in both...yeah definitely I don't understand the scientific method (hahaha...you're just hilarious). I have no bias, I read Car and Driver, and think they do a lot of good tests. But you need to take their reviews with a grain of salt, or in this case, a barrel. And to be honest...I'm not impressed that you sold your scientific soul to them after only 5 years, if at all. That's definitely not something I'd brag about.
"Please... ignorance is bliss... open your mind.... Educate yourself before you enter arguments..."
Again, you're a funny guy. This wasn't at first anything against you explicitly...but you've picked the wrong guy to blame his disagreement with your opinions upon lack of education. Bad approach. Ignorance may be bliss for you, happy to accept everything that C&D puts out whether it's one of their best tests, or one of their worse...and worse yet just accepting it as fact when even the guys up there will tell you that their tests are not to be generalized to everything, just to provide another point of view. But for me, ignorance is ignorance, and the true scientific method, applied correctly to science and experiments, is bliss. I have my 8th grade science book in my closet somewhere if you need me to copy over for you what the scientific method you allude to is
because I assure you, accepting one test as fact is anything BUT what the scientific method says...I suggest you go back to school for a few years...Austin519
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
MrHeeltoe
1G TSX Tires, Wheels, & Suspension
20
02-23-2023 01:54 PM
MrHeeltoe
2G TSX Tires, Wheels & Suspension
3
09-29-2015 10:43 PM
MrHeeltoe
3G TL Tires, Wheels & Suspension
0
09-28-2015 05:43 PM
