eCo

We had a thread a while back discussing the merits and faults of various oils and how often they should be changed. Unfortunately, there was absolutely no hard data in our car. This post changes that.

I had the oil in my TL-S and my wife's Odyssey analyzed. I've been running Amsoil, and I had put Mobil 1 in the Odyssey. The results follow...

'02 Acura TL-S 18,000 miles
3.2 L vtec
9,000 miles on Amsoil 5w-20 (XL-7500)
and Mobil 1 filter

Aluminum 7
Chromium 1
Iron 29
Copper 75 (univ. avg 38)
Lead 1
Tin 0
Molybdenum 29
Nickel 1
Manganese 2
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 0
Silicon 26
Sodium 4
Calcium 2350
Magnesium 271
Phosphorus 672
Zinc 1041
Barium 0

SUS viscosity @ 210F 53.1
Flashpoint (deg F) 385
Fuel (%) <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 0
TBN 8.5

Comments: Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from this type engine after a routine oil run. Your oil was in use 9,000 miles, 3,000 miles longer than an average oil use run for the type, and we found all wear from the engine except copper, at around average levels and in the correct balance to show normal mechancal parts inside. We don’t know the source of the copper, but as new as the engine is, it could be from wear-in. Air and oil filtration look okay. This was a 5w/20 oil with no gas, moisture, or anti-freeze in it. The TBN was 8.5, easily normal.


'01 Honda Odyssey 15,000 miles
3.5 L vtec
6,200 miles on Mobil 1 10w-30
Mobil 1 filter

Aluminum 7
Chromium 5
Iron 38
Copper 80 (univ. avg. 39)
Lead 1
Tin 1
Molybdenum 6
Nickel 0
Manganese 2
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 2
Boron 36
Silicon 17
Sodium 8
Calcium 862
Magnesium 1494
Phosphorus 639
Zinc 772
Barium 0

SUS viscosity @ 210F 65.2
Flashpoint (deg F) 435
Fuel (%) <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 0.4
TBN 6.5

Comments: Universal averages show typical wear from this engine after 6200 miles on the oil. We found chrom, from rings, and copper, from bronze and brass parts, to be above average in your oil. It’s possible these levels are from lingering wear-in on this fairly new engine, but usually you’re past wear-in by 10,000 miles. We hesitate to call it a problem until we’ve seen three or four samples, so we suggest running the oil 4,000-5,000 miles and resampling. The wear trends will tell us more. The TBN read 6.5, an average number. You wouldn’t want to run the oil much longer.

* * * end of reports * * *

In summary, the Amsoil after 9k looks better than Mobil 1 after 6k. One caviat tho, is that the Mobil 1 was in the Odyssey longer than the Amsoil was in the TL-S. I'm putting roughly 400 miles on the TL-S per week. Also, the Odyssey calls for 5w-20, but I put 10w-30 in it since that's what I could find that week.

The copper values are a bit disconcerting so I'll be keeping my eye on those. Both cars have Amsoil in them now, so it will be interesting to see how the next results look.

I added this data to Bill's Maxima database . Please feel free to add your results to this thread, and there as well. The more data we have, the better. Tranny data would also be very interesting. I'll be checking mine at 30k.

These analyses were done at Blackstone Labs.

eCo

asiankidd

you one crazy and scary man my frined...none the less when can i take my car in for oil analysis?!?!

T Ho

I'm a bit hesitant to really take anything away from those results for the following reasons:

1. You used 10W in the Odyssey. Given that it's thicker on startup, that could be the wear difference right there.
2. You put more miles in less time on the TL-S. This is likely due to increased mileage per trip, and decreased number of cold engine starts. This will also tend to reduce wear products.
3. The Odyssey weighs almost 900lbs more than the TL-S, and as such, the engine leads a harder life (i.e. heavier constant load).

So, IMO, a better test would be to do that EXACT test twice in each car, under the same conditions, then switch the oil, do it twice again, and show me the results.

Todd

eCo

I mentioned those points for precisely this reason. Also, I'm not trying to claim Amsoil is better than Mobil 1 or vice versa. I'm just presenting the data.

What this *does* show is that Amsoil seems to be a perfectly good oil for our cars. The same cannot be said of Mobil 1 (in its new formulation) without similar data to back it up. I hope someone gets it analyzed and posts it.

Finally, the next oil change in the Odyssey may say something about the relative performance of the two oils. We'll see.

Regards,
eCo

copland007

I should get my RedLine 5w20 tested

How/where does one get their oil tested (sorry for the stupid question) ?

copland007

DOH! You already posted the link, my bad. I'll request their free kit and go from there.

eCo

Please do, I'd love to see a Redline analysis. I've yet to see one.

eCo

1999TL

Where's the best place to buy Amsoil? online or do local shops sell it? never seen it at the parts store...

jmai

Wow..that's some data. I'm using Amsoil 5w-30 25K w/ Mobil 1 M1-105 filter. I'm already at 7K miles. I've already changed the Mobil 1 Filter once w/ this current interval. Maybe I should send in my oil sample also.

eCo

I got an email from Bill Miles at maxima.org in regard to my results posted above. He also has some interesting info with regard to 5w/20 vs. 5w30. Hopefully this won't be too long.

<i>...your wear levels are pretty typical for the V6 Hondas, so you have nothing to really worry about. The Universal Averages are what is expected for your type engine after a certain number of miles (Blackstone usually tells you in their comments). Following the tips below will help keep your oil in good condition and improve those wear level values a bit.

Regarding the oil filter: I am now recommending an oversized oil filter for the TL and Odysseys: the STP S3985. It's a great price ($3) and an excellent design and will really help filter good, especially given you are still breaking both vehicles in (well, sorta). However, be warned that I'm not positive it will fit in the Odyssey. I can tell you for sure it will fit in the TL fine (I use one in my dad's 99 TL), but not the Odyssey.

Should the Odyssey need a "shorter" filter, then the STP S3950 will work as well. It's about an inch shorter than the other one, so it has slightly less filtering area. It's still a step above the standard filter volume on the Honda filters and the Mobil 1 M1-104. The S3950 is the same size as the M1-105, which is the oversized application for the M1-104. Several TL and CL guys are already using the M1-105. The Mobil1 filters (usually $12) are just too pricey to not just buy 2 STP ones over the same drain interval and yet protect as good or better than Mobil 1 when using it over an entire interval. Oil filtration seems to be the key with these Honda VTEC V6 engines.</i>

I asked him for a review of the STP filter:

<i>http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml

They allude to the Mobil 1 M1-105 oversized filter (wider than the M1-104) that they installed on a Prelude, which is a direct cross reference to the STP S3950 (Prelude guys briefly mention this one fitting fine as well) I mentioned in my previous e-mail. In addition, the STP S3985 filter I mentioned to you is a longer (about an inch) version of the STP S3950. Another benefit of these filters is the top bypass valve design (at the inlet). As the Prelude guys explain about the M1-105/S3985/S3950 advantage: "This one, however, has a unique bypass valve integrated into the outlet. When pressure is high enough, the oil forces the valve open and should travel right from the inlet, through the valve, and out the outlet (very short path)." Since the STP ones are about $3/each, changing them more often makes sense for extending your oil life without increasing your cost since the Mobil 1 filters are around $12 each.

Another important item: change your air filter every 6 months. Disregard what Acura recommends in this manner. This will help keep your silicon (i.e. dirt) level down in both vehicles.</i>

For the elevated copper levels, he had this to say:

<i>Copper just tends to run higher on the Honda V6s (as do chromium, lead, aluminum, iron), but yours are fairly out of range at your respective mileage points. Since you went synthetic so relatively early in both vehicles, it has taken your engines a longer time to truly break in and why you are still showing such wear. In addition, from my experience with these lab results, filters are stressed a lot in Honda engines. In my dad's TL I am using Amsoil Series 2000 0W/30 for a year with oil changes every 4 months (similar driving conditions to your Odyssey) with an oversized oil filter.</i>

And now his views of 5w/20:

<b>5W-20 benefits: </b>

• Fuel economy increases by 0.5% to 1.5%
• Emissions are marginally lowered

<b>5W-20 issues: </b>

• At operating temp., you have a much thinner oil.
• Lack of real long term testing ("Let's let the consumer try it....")
• All engines that currently recommend its use were not designed for the thinner viscosity (less of a problem in precise machined Japanese engines than "Tolerance, what tolerance?" Ford V-8 engines)
• NO significant extended drain intervals. Ford recommends 3k or 5k replacement depending on operating conditions, as opposed to the 3,750 or 7,500 mile intervals just the year before with 5W-30.

<i>Note: the 4.6L V-8 has not significantly changed since its inception around 1992. Amsoil makes 5W-20, but only guarantees it for 7,500 mile use, not 25,000 mile extended drain interval use as is the case with their 5W-30 and other viscosity grades. The 20W oil appears just too thin to use for extended mileage.

Also, in the spreadsheet in the "Domestic vehicles" section, you can also look at a Mercury Grand Marquis that I've had analyzed from birth. You can take note of Blackstone's comments regarding the 5W/20 weight when I changed the oil at 176 miles. Also, there is a CL and a couple of other TLs with some interesting results as well in the new spreadsheet.

You really shouldn't put the kind of miles you are on the TL with Amsoil's 5W/20, which is only "guaranteed" by Amsoil for 7500 miles. Also, Amsoil did change their formulation from a Group IV basestock to a Group III basestock to be more competitive with Castrol Syntec. In the TL, I would switch to Amsoil 5W/30 oil (guaranteed for 1 year or 25,000 miles) and an oversized oil filter (explained below), while with the Odyssey I would just go back to a 5W/30 or 10W/30 synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Amsoil.

Here's what I would do interval wise based on your driving conditions:

TL: Change with Amsoil every 6 months and change oversized filter every 3 months
Odyssey: Change with Amsoil every 12 months and change oversized filter every 4 months

Take a sample at the end and go from there.</i>

My driving conditions are:
Acura 30k miles/yr
Odyssey 15k miles/yr
...deep in the South.

Regards,
eCo

eCo

Oil filter update from Bill:

<i>Please note that I probably have misinformed you regarding the "extra oversized" S3985. On double-checking at the parts store today, I noticed the filter gasket is larger in diameter than the one in the S3950. It's possible that it won't seat right against the block and cause leaks. I'm going to try and have someone who is changing the oil on their CL-S this weekend buy both filters to see if that's the case. If you're more comfortable with the Bosch brand, its filter number is 3320 for the oversized application and will fit fine. It's about $5.50. I think the Mobil 1 is just too expensive for going the kind of drain intervals that you are going without being replaced at least once or twice. Also, I'll try and let you know about any Purolator filters that I come across that can fit as well.</i>

I didn't want anyone to rush out and try this oversized filter without the final word.

eCo

Southbound

Thanks eCo for the very informative and interesting Post(s)!!!

I'm sure that no two mechanics or no two owners will ever agree on the same practices... But thanks for your info just the same. It makes me feel better about using 5-W-30 over 5-W-20.

Southbound

eCo

Thanks for the kind words, Southy.

Yeah, I'm going to do a quicker change on this interval and move to 5w-30 as well. I'm impressed with Amsoil, tho, and so will order a case here pretty quick.

I love this oil sampling practice. It sure takes the guesswork out of how well your oil is doing - especially if you go for extended intervals. We need more folks to participate, tho.

eCo

T Ho

I'll give it a go when I drain the oil next time (should be getting close).
I'm doing Mobil 1 5W-30, using STP filter, and changing every 5000 miles, or 6 months, whichever comes first.

Todd

samkws

i agree...the odessey has to push a lot harder coz of its weight

jean

Ditto for me... I prefer protecting my engine rather than gaining 0.5% of fuel economy and I will not be a 5W20 "guiney-pig"..!!

eCo

Hey folks,

I got a new analysis in. Numbers on the whole were better than last time, but copper is still a tad high. This is to be expected since I shortened my drain interval.

This car gets a lot of highway mileage - about 400 miles/wk, so oil age is not an issue. I've got the last of my purchase of the 5w20 in the car now, and will be switching to 5w30 next time. If you look at the SUS viscosity (see bottom of list below), 5w20 is borderline acceptable. 5w30 ought to push it toward 60, and this should help drop that copper level.

I also plan to change the oil filter at 3k or so. I already changed the air filter at 20k (Acura recommends 30k).

Blackstone Labs analysis follows:

'02 Acura TL-S 26,000 miles
3.2 L vtec
7,500 miles on Amsoil 5w-20 (XL-7500)
and Mobil 1 filter

Aluminum 3
Chromium 1
Iron 14
Copper 54 (univ. avg 40)
Lead 1
Tin 2
Molybdenum 4
Nickel 0
Manganese 1
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 1
Boron 5
Silicon 11
Sodium 3
Calcium 2232
Magnesium 295
Phosphorus 671
Zinc 1071
Barium 0

SUS viscosity @ 210F 53.8 (<i>suggested range: 53-62</i>)
Flashpoint (deg F) 360
Fuel (%) <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 0.7

Comments: We're happy to see the copper drop [<i>was 75 - see first post above</i>]. While 54 ppm is still not great, it's better. Part of the improvement may be due to the shorter run on the oil, and part may be due to the wear-in process passing. Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from this type engine after a routine oil run. Suggest staying with 7500 miles for the next oil and resampling. If copper continues washing out the system and drops even further, you may be able to begin extended use program. Suggest changing oil filters every 3000 miles to keep insolubles within limits.

Has anyone else gotten their oil analyzed yet? If so, please post results.

eCo
_

fender4

I had my oil analysis added to the maxima
database , note I had 114 ppm iron after 9600 miles on one amsoil filter and amsoil 5w30, lab recommended changing filter. I changed oil to amsoil 0w30 and will change filter at 5k but keep the oil in for 10k...


http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=100060