Paul,

What was the point of your post?

Weight distribution matters. You know it does, and you mentioned the Camaro is pretty good in that respect. If all your weight is up front, those tires are gonna give long before the rears have reached their limit unless the fronts are larger... which would look stupid.

What's your point about torque? The 330i has excellent torque at 2000 RPMs. Does the TL?

I don't think anyone hear said a 330i will beat a Camaro's performance. BMW builds the best sport sedan. Not the best pure sports car.

At first you say people don't know what they are talking about. Then you spout out useless and primarily false information. You even contradict yourself.

So the question is, what are you so pissed off about? It isn't like anyone said the TL-S sucks. Its a nice car. It seems you can't accept the fact that it isn't superior to every other car in every way.


Here is my take on these cars:

TL-S
PRO: Value (great feature list), looks, acceleration, pretty good handling.
CON: Road noise. Ride is a little bumpy... doesn't feel glued to pavement (nitpicking here). Torque steer is horendous under heavy acceleration. Interior looks like it is imitating luxury.. doesn't come off as the real deal. They could fix that with real wood and a different dash texture/color. Steering is just a little too light.. but still pretty good. The front styling may be a bit overdone, but I still like it a lot.

I-30
PRO: Quiet, luxurious interior, smooth ride, good firm steering.
CON: Forgettable exterior styling, non-independant rear suspension gives that dropping/wagon effect over big bumps. Ride is a little floaty. This is not a serious cornering machine. Didn't have opportunity to open it up... don't know about torque steer. (nice car, but hard to get excited about it)

BMW 330 (sport)
PRO: Excelent handling, firm ride but forgiving, good even power delivery, interior is fairly luxurious (either real wood, or colored panels... no faux material), looks good from most angles, good resale value, just fun to drive.
CON: Standard equipment list is lame, optional equipment is overpriced, the leather looks and feels good when new... looks like crap 1 year later, BMW ignores problems with their cars, sometimes for the lift of the model (like electronic problems etc.), paint chips are terrible, break dust sucks. The rear end looks a little too much like a Honda Civic to me.

The BMW is more reliable than most give them credit for. What annoys me is that people have the same problems over and over and BMW doesn't care.

IS300
Pro: Performance, car looks good from all but 1 direction, handling, good standard feature list.
Cons: Tail lights look like crap. Interior needs some work at the price point... really sparse. Feel like you are going to fall over sideways in passenger seat because there isn't anywhere to rest your left arm. Armrest in doors small. Instrument cluster is odd.

Well that's my take.

 

Peter, you are a lost soul.

1. for 01, BMW benefited a great deal from throttle by wire, thus the car launches almost instaneously.

2. Please check what you are saying, the last time i check TL/TLS low end power isn't that great. After owning the TL for almost 1.5 years, i can honestly say that TL's throttle response is not something to boast about. TL like typical honda engine lacks low end punch, in addition to lackluster transmission response. TL is not a great launcher.

regards

 

sboje,

Take my post with a grain of salt, it was meant to put down BMW's a little, not anything about the TL-S except that it is one hell of a value. So good of a value that it make you wonder why spending an extra $10,000 for a tiny bit more performance and "feel" would be worth it.

I think the problem with me is that not only when I look at a car (whether it be new or used), I see what it can do today and what potential it has (and how much $ and effort that potential costs). A good example is the fact that the 330 handles better out of the box-or at least it is stated it does. Fine, but can a modified TL hang with or beat a stock 330? I defintely think so. I'll even bet that a moded TL vs a moded 330 would be one hell of a comparison. That is what I'm talking about. I know that there are more moded TL and TL-S in the world that moded BMW's, which tells you something. It doesn't tell you that the TL sucks out of the box, it says the typical TL driver knows the car's potential and is not afraid to exploit it. Once you exploit it, cars more capable become passe' and not worth the money.

Like I said previously, if you were looking for a $50,000 sports car, would you buy a 333hp M3, a 385hp Vette, or a $30,000 LS1 Camaro and put $20,000 of mods into it? For maximum performance a smart person would go for the Camaro and mods. The not so smart person would say that you wasted your money by having a $50,000 Camaro. If all you cared about is speed (ignoring comfort and style), a 10 second ride is faster than a 12 second one.

The real question is would you buy a $42,000 330 that is comparable in features to the TL-S for $10,000 more, or would you pick the TL-S and make mods if you wanted? I say TL-S. The best bang for the buck in my book. And if you are wondering, every BMW is within my reach financially, but I prefer the Acura.

------------------
Paul's Home Page

 

Fact is, is that BMW's are sportier in nature vrs. their Acura and Lexus counter parts. Very very little in the way of luxury, if one could call any BMW luxurious. Even the 7 series suffer from this. Loud road noise probably has much to do with this "feeling" that many of us BMW (me past)owners speak highly of. Take a GS400/430. IT will wax a 540 easily in the 0-60,1/4, Braking, AND SKIDPAD. It will trounce it above 80.Yet the bimmer is known to be sportier because of this "feel" because the GS400 is completely quet inside the cabin. So much so that one could get the feeling of isolation and detachment from the car. Now of course BMW's are known for their linear steering which contributes to this "feeling" also. THough no where near the perfection of a 944/968 series Porsche. My little 944 turbo has that "feel". It is loud as hell and is very uncomfortable. Yes I like it from time to time and I would certainly put it against any of your japanese(minus a modded Supra or NSX) or Bimmer want to be sports cars. Even the new M3. Does this "feel" make it a better car? Hell no. Not even close. As far as 50/50 is concerned, which BMW has 50/50 weight distribution.???? A 944 has that, the new Vette close. But a BMW???? Sorry but the BMW is very front biased also.
Also, you guys need to compare the TL-s to some thing in it's marketplace-the new 325. Priced the same, yet the Bimmer gets waxed by even a SVT Contour. So yeah I could compare a 911 turbo to a Camara SS, but what is the point.

As far as a fast car as mentioned above-Camaro-wrong. Yeah it would be fast
A Supra with the right mods will kill any Camaro for much less,handle better , and last longer. Now of course if your talking 20k in mods, then your taling non-streetable cars anyhow.

Just my rambling.

 

Sboje -

Just questioning why you are experiencing so much torque steer? I'm not questioning that you are or aren't, but I haven't really noticed it that much. I was really expecting to with 260HP.

Maybe because I've owned 3 other front wheel drive cars and have become used to dealing with it and instinctively compensate for it.

Anyway, I've not found it to be a problem at all. I will agree on there being way too much much weight in the front end.

As for me, money being no object I would have the new M3 or M5. Probably the M5 because it better suites the size needs for me. But the 3.2 TL-S is very close to the base 3 and 5 series. Just missing a few points on the fit and finish.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by sboje:
[B]Paul,
Here is my take on these cars:

TL-S
CON: Torque steer is horendous under heavy acceleration.

 

I think that while we are getting off the point of the post, we are touching on some interesting things: mostly reputation and perceived quality.

Think about it, would you buy a similar car (or truck) and spend $10,000 more for the exact same thing in another brand's wrapper? No, you would want something extra: like a super warranty or some sort of performance advantage, or maybe better resale value. That is where BMW and MB are situated, right at the top in reputation and performance feel, with BMW being sporty and MB being bulletproof. They are doing the right thing to keep on top too, pushing their brands are premium.

I guess for the case of the Lexus being faster than the 540i, that is more of a "secret", meaning that people percive it as luxury and the BMW as sporty. Sporty cars attract more enthusiasts than luxury cars do., so everyone automatically thinks it must be faster, or a case of perceived better performance. I do like the Lexus better than the 540, but I wouldn't buy either, not my cup of tea.

I don't mean to flame noparchment, but if you think a Supra can be faster than a Camaro for less money and handle better, you are mistaken. You should come to one of the Hi-Tech mag events in Englishtown (NJ) and see how many fast and streetable (some driven from Canada and run in the low 9's) late-model GM, Ford, and Dodge cars there are. Haven't even heard of Supras that fast yet on the street and I read all the import mags. God bless america

------------------
Paul's Home Page

 

Man, I'm gonna have to go flame!!!

 

Man, I didn't know you bought the 530i...I don't know if you ever drove the 540, but if so, how do the two compare in regards to power and handling?

And yes I agree with you, I love my TL, but it's no Bimmer...

 

Dude, don't worry about all these magazine racers here. Bottom line, a 528i will beat any TL beyond 80mph, imagine what a bigger, more powerful engine 530i will do.

 

Ruf87,

I only noticed the problem at high RPM... the steering got squirly. In a RWD car, there is no effect on the steering under heavy acceleration. It is something I'm not used to. My VW Scirocco kinda did this a bit, but I had also bent the unibody on that car.

Torque steer probably is not the right term. I drove a Volvo S60... now that ALWAYS has torque steer, and it sucks.

 

Humm. . Maybe it does something and because I've driven so many front wheel drive cars over the years I'm not bothered by it anymore.

The older model front wheel drive cars did have a real noticeable and some of them real scarey problem. I think most newer and better cars have virtually eliminated the problem.

I'll try and pay attention to it the next time I get out and report back. Honey! Do you need me to run to the store for you? ;-)

 

Interesting as I have owned many FWD cars. I prefer RWD as I love to whip the rear end around and catch it, but on the TLS, I never noticed any torque steer. On my SHO, it did nothing but torque steer and it was no where near the power as the TLS.
THough not on the subject:
1993 Supra TT
Stock-0-60 5.3/1/4 13.6
with only $1000.00 in mods: 0-60 4.0-4.2,1/4 in low 12's.
Stock 1993 Z28 manual
0-60 6.1-6.3,1/4-15.1-Motor Trend
with a $1000.00 in mods-0-60 in 5.3 maybe at best
Sure any car can be made to go fast. I can make a Hyundai whip up oin any 911 or Viper, but does it still make for a great car?
A Camaro is just a Chevy. Nothing special what so ever. Sure you can make it fast, but can you make it "better". It will always be a Chevy. Poor quality,dismall handling, very vague steering, and so forth...thus the choice of the Supra TT. IT is still not my type of car,I would prefer maybe a NSX. Like I said, if I wanted to go that fast, I would get a Datsun 510 and go from there. Im sure we have all seen the little Mazda doing the 7's or 8's and he lets OFF and the last 2 hundred feet or so!

But...thats off subject.
Being an upward mobile person, I required a performance sedan "again", so the GS fit the bill. I drove several 540's and it just did not do anything for me. I actually would prefer the TLS over the 540. Call me crazy. Maybe im tired of the same old BMW interior and black plastic or German "smell" and wanted something fresh.
They are all nice cars, just preference. NOw I can say that if the Blue had the parchment (thus my handle) I would of picked one up last month. Better then a GS or 540, NO, but certainly different, and I certainly would of taken it over the 325,330, and the IS300 even if they were all priced the same. Maybe it's that really nice nav system Acura uses.

FOR SALE: 1987 Hyundai Excel hatchback, 730RWHP. 1/4 in low 9's. Purple tint. Chain steering wheel. Hurst shifter. Gold trim everywhere. BIg dice on rear view window. But it's fast-any takers?

Remember-it's still just a Hyundai,no amount of power can change that.

 

Well said, to each his/her own! It simply boils down to personal preference. If I could do it all over again, I would still own a TL. What I know for sure is that a 530i is not a slow car as some of you claim. As a matter of fact, I would bet that the 530i would beat a TLS beyond 90-100mph or so. German cars are simply great at high end. I don't think my 540i is that great off the line, personally, not as bursty off the line as the CLS/TLS but once moving, it will whoop some ass.
Some people choose GS430 over 540i and vise versa. For all you TLS owners, you have a nice car period, I think you should enjoy your car for what it is regardless whether it's cheaper than a 5 series or more expensive than an Accord V6. You bought your car for a good reason, simply cuz you felt that "this is the one". I think I'm becoming more and more of a car enthusiast as I've learned not to judge a car simply cuz it has less HP than mine, but you have to open up every aspect to truly understand what the car is capable of.

Now, "when will this end?"

 

Mega Dittos!

Even though my old Malibu SS had all sorts of suspension work, it still wouldn't beat the TL-S. And my old 94 Z28 HO would, but I don't think it was as fast as the TL-S is. All in all I had a lot more fun in the Malibu SS. It was very predictable and with the turn of the wheel and a foot in the pedal I could straighten her right out. Man I loved going sideways in that thing. Sigh.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by noparchment:
[B]Interesting as I have owned many FWD cars. I prefer RWD as I love to whip the rear end around and catch it,

 

Yup. Nobody buys a BMW because of it's bargain pricing. You have to love something about the car, like the looks, the overall feel of the car, or the supposed status. I love the way they drive, so I can't talk myself into buying anything else.

-Scott

 

The Germans & Japenese know what they are doing. Love my TL here, but you just have to respect the 330 & 530 models, since they take off as rockets just like the TL. All are great cars, just different prices and like people said on here, different preferences.

I think deep down inside, most people eventually will want to own a BMW sooner or later in life if it's within their means and money is no object. There is something facinating about the BMW engineering.

 

Well said HokieD.

 

I figure I'll put my 2 cents in here since I just test drove a 325, 330, tl and tl type-s back to back in that order.

When I was about to get a tl-p last week I thought in the back of my mind that in a couple of years I'd regret not getting a BMW and I was somehow short changing myself with a tl to save some money. So I went to test drive the cars again, thinking I'll probably buy a 330i b/c it will blow me away and 5K over a tl (w/ far fewer options though) would be worth it.
325 drove nice, tight, felt good, a bit small, but not that much smaller. It actually felt quick surprisingly enough. Nice interior, nice wood trim, nice fit & finish, very sharp looking car.
330 drove about the same as as the 325 but quicker. It's fast, but lets not kid ourselves, it's not fast like a corvette or a real sports car.
tl - smooth, a bit floaty, stearing felt a bit disconnected, very luxurious feel inside, nice features, spaceous.
tl type S - HELLO, this car just kicked serious butt. I test drove it for over 20 mins. Did high speed lane changes, slammed on the brakes, took sharp corners, did 0-60 on public streets, etc. Seats are awsome, stereo is awsome, leather stiching is better than on the tl, not as good as BMW, ride was firm and smooth. But I couldn't really tell that it had 35 more hp than the tl, although it did haul butt when I stomped on the gas. Hardly any torque steer at all.

At the end of the day, I asked myself if all 4 cars cost the same money which one would I get, and I would definitely get the type-S. So now I have to change mi sig. below, hopefully soon to read TL-S

------------------
- Nick, still shopping for an 02, w/ or w/out nav

 

According to Edmunds.com, the TL has .4 inches more of rear seat leg room than the 3 series. The amazing thing about the 3 series is that they did an exceptional job of creating functional interior space. The 5 series doesn't have much more leg room than the 3.

I think the 3 series is extremely comfortable. I'm 5'8". It may be different for someone who is taller.

The TL is no 5 series. Not even close. The 5 series (sport) has what has been regarded to as the best passenger car suspension ever. Go drive one of those around for awhile and you will understand. You have supreme confidence driving that car. It's predatory in the way it eats up the bumps and sticks to the pavement. Reading about it doesn't tell you squat.

 

I'm surprised that so many people directly compare the 3 series to the TL. Even the car mags compare them head-to-head. Both cars give you similar luxury and sportiness for around 32K, but that's it.

The BMW 3 series is MUCH smaller and is not even in the same class if you ask me. The dimensions are totally different for these two cars and I'd think they would be attractive for two totally different consumers.

If you have kids or need room in the back for large passengers (like me), you would consider the TL foremost. If you are single, don't carry rear passengers much, and are one of those people that has to have a 5 speed, then you would probably consider the 3 series.

A better comparison for the TL is the 5 series. I can't afford a 5 series so it fell out of my list of cars. Also, don't expect the car mags to compare the 5 series to the TL because the price is so out of whack for the Bimmer. A smart consumer, and not all of us are (especially if you have boat loads of $$$ in your pocket) would never buy a 5 series over a TL.

I compared the TL Type S to other cars of similar size, the Lexus ES 300 and Nissan Maxima. The ES 300 is just too old looking in terms of styling. I think it's way overdue for a re-design. The Maxima looks sweet, but compared to all the features, HP, and quality of the TL, the choice was the clear. Acura TL Type S!

 

In terms of handling, 530i is probably the best handling 5 series in BMW's lineup. I seriously believe that 5 series was never really designed to have a V8 under the hood. If anyone has the chance look at how crowded the engine aby is for 540i/M5. BMW has to change the steering design due to the V8.

Will i am waiting for ESS tuning to finish their supercharge kit for 530i in july. I will be the 1st one the line up to get the upgrade. 350HP@6000 RPM is nice. Plus the kit is %6,000.

just can't wait.

 

Dude, don't worry about all these magazine racers here. Bottom line, a 528i will beat any TL beyond 80mph, imagine what a bigger, more powerful engine 530i will do.


Are you high? The 528i has 193 PUNIES, er I mean ponies. This pathetic wimp engine isn't in the ball park. My buddy has a 328i smaller and lighter and it STILL feels like a wimp machine. Not bad for an econo car, mind you, but not in the TL-S league by any means, even with low, low gearing this isn't comparable. Add the extra pork of the 528i and you have a real stone (relative to the TL-S). Even if it did have the grunt to keep up with TL-S above 80 (it doesn't) it would get creamed when it's rev limiter hits at 128. The TL-S has 20 MPH on it. Not impressed by the 528i, sorry...

Regards
-w

 

I do not understand how people compare the tl to a 3 series or an IS there is no comparison, the TL does not belong nor is it fair to compare it against these cars (cause it will lose badly)this makes no sense...

Now comparing a tl to a cadillac catera, es 300, I35 (yes new 3,5 liter engine good for 260 h.p.), Oldsmobile Auora, I can see this comparison, this makes sense....

 

Well in the same price range you could shop a TL-S and a 325i.

Both sedans, both sporty, both upscale cars. TL-S has pretty good handling, loads of features, and better acceleration. 325i has great handling, acceptable power (5 speed appropriate), cleaner interior, but low on features. I'm sure there are people who have compared these cars.

The fact the the TL-S gets compared to a 330 is really a compliment to the TL-S.

The IS300 just doesn't come close in interior room or luxury... they should have made it a coupe.

 

Did you not read my quote carefully? I said a TL, not a TLS. I know this for a fact cuz my friend was able to pull away from me beyond 80 in my TL. Yes, he has a manual tranny so perhaps that may have made a bit of a difference. I don't think you should compare the 528's power simply cuz it has 193HP. In that case the TLS's 260 should be able to walk away from a 240HP M3, correct?...

True, I agree that the TLS will walk away after the Bimmer hits its rev limiter. But have you ever taken your car beyond 110 mph? You'll know that your, and my TL's 4th gear is a joke and it takes forever to gain speed beyond 3rd gear. Maybe it's due to BMW's short gearing that they do so well in 4th and 5th compared to our cars. Not trying to dis our cars...geez I own one myself and love it and have no regrets. As a matter of fact, I baby my TL more than my 540i. Believe it or not, I was my White TL a lot more. Also, I do belive that the 325i is a joke of a car, now this is just my opinion simply cuz I drove the car. I also drove a CLS with Comptech Headers, yet very impressed with the take off, but 3rd gear and beyond still doesn't impress me. The fact is, NovaWhiteTypeS (CLS with Headers) and I (in my 540i) raced and when we hit about 90 or 100, he was in front of me and he quickly moved out of my way cuz he thought my car was going to rear end him due to the acceleration of my car. What I'm saying is tha the 528 or even the 530 should not be taken for granted cuz it has less horses than our cars.

If you dyno a stock TLS, you should pull like 197HP or so, my TL pulled like 170HP to the wheel. Now compared the the Bimmer, my 540i will pull 260HP (According to Bimmer.Org) due to the rear wheel drive I guess. Based on this factor the 530i will dyno about the same as your stock TLS, add a manual and better gearing, I think the 530i will do pretty well compared to the TL-S
s performance.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by AC on May 28, 2001 @ ]</font>

 

The manual tranny with very aggressive gearing, makes a lot of difference...not a "bit of a difference"...

In pretty much all these Bimmer vs TL/TL-s, you have basically compared the Manual BMW with the Auto transmissioned TL/TL-s....bimmer.org says the 540i (with the 4.0L V8) will pull 260hp....but that is an aggressively geared 6-speed manual transmissioned 540i ....yours is an automatic right ?!!!....also for acceleration, gearing is extremely important...the TL/TL-s, in-spite of their prodigious engine outputs (compared to the BMW 6-cylinder engines) have wimpy gear ratios (again compared to the aggressively geared BMWs)....if the TL/TL-s had manual transmissions and gearing similar to the BMWs, they would thrash the BMWs in acceleration.....definitely not in handling..



------------------
2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

 

I agree with you 100%, but the fact still remains...our cars are not aggressively geared like the BMW's.

From the beginning, I was never a BMW nor a TL/TLS hater/biggot/whatever. The truth of the matter is, I'm highly considering trading in my TL for a TLS but I would not expect more from the TLS than what it can give me.

Like someone stated, perhaps the ES300 would be a better comparison to our cars simply cuz they're very well matched, but then, someone will come out and say "our car will destroy the ES, etc. in performance".\
I admit, I was once an idiot before saying stuff like the IS300 is crap, etc., but I realized that I spoke prematurely because I never got behind the wheel of this car.

Again, you TLS owners, you have a very nice car and despite what a 330, or whatever can do, you should enjoy and make the best of what you have. I bought my TL cuz I felt that "this is the one" and hopefully everyone bought their TL/TLS for the same reason. I always knew that there would be faster cars for the money. Hell, if I was looking for just that, I would have bought a Mustang or Camaro but the bottom line is that they are just not my taste.

Not trying to dis at all, when I see a TLS with a body kit, it makes me look twice cuz I think the car was beautifully made, same goes for the 330Ci and 530i Sport.



<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by AC on May 28, 2001 @ ]</font>

 

Hunter, what is so great about the TL-S HP output? There is a difference in displacement (3.0 to 3.2). The BMW engine also has a lot of torque lower in the RPM range, which means you'll actually be using more of the available power. It would be interesting to compare the area under the curve/line on a HP graph of each engine. I have a jpg of the BMW 3L HP/torque graph.. just don't know how to post it. There is 280NM torque at 2000 RPM.

BMWs idea of a tricked out 3.2L engine is in the new M3. Check that out and see how prodigious the TL-S HP numbers are.

Even auto tranny 540s do under 6 seconds consistently... the published numbers are very conservative. I have no idea how fast a 530 is.

 

I don't think a 528 or a 530 with automatic transmission would keep up with a TL-S either.

I've driven the 530 though, and it is pretty fast. The engine hits about 90% of peak torque at 2000RPM. If you are driving an automatic, that means you have nearly peak torque all the time. Just driving around town, the 530 seems faster. Once you hit the gas, and get some RPMs, the TL-S simply out powers the BMW though. A 530 with a 5 speed should be able to take a TL-S (not by a huge margin though).

So take your pick... do you want low end power or high end power? If you like to race, that's an easy question to answer. I'd rather have the power down low (stop and go traffic... it sucks). Plus, I have a Honda CBR1100XX when I want to experience serious acceleration