beatsme

I have an 03 TL with ~159K miles. I am the original owner. Car is my daily driver and I'm trying to get a few more years out of it if possible. Car has been regularly serviced and not abused.

It is due for an oil change and transmission fluid service (which I've done annually since the transmission was replaced in 2011 by the dealership where I bought the car).

The valve cover gasket and oil pump seal are both leaking. So I'm getting smoke from under the hood (which stops temporarily after I clean it off with some Windex and water). I'm not losing oil between changes but the smoke is alarming.

The independent shop (since sold to a large chain) I used to take it to said it also needs camshaft thrust O-rings. And two motor mounts (side and rear). No one has said anything, but I think I'm probably due for a new timing belt, tensioners and water pump (which were last replaced in December 2011 at 87K) based on age. I'm worried the leaking oil pump seal is possibly going to damage the timing belt (based on posts I have read here). And I guess I should have the valves adjusted when the cover comes off?

All of this sounds like a month's worth of pay. Is it worth it? As always, money is tight. But you guys saved me a ton of money when my transmission was going out. I'm hoping you can help me now.

So, what would you do? And in what order?
What can wait?
There is a Honda dealership near where I work so I need to make an appointment and take it in.
Thanks for any advice you can share about prioritizing these issues. I really appreciate it.

Chojun

Maintaining your car is *almost* always cheaper than buying a new/used one, unless you significantly downgrade.

My recommendation is in this order

1) Timing belt + oil pump seal. I would say you're probably okay to wait on that belt but if your oil pump is leaking then definitely get that fixed first and right away.
2) Valve cover gaskets and camshaft o-rings. since you have to take the timing belt off to do the o-rings probably most people would recommend you do that with the maintenance in #1 to save money. You can do the valve cover gaskets yourself if you're not afraid to turn a wrench.
3) Engine mounts (you can do the side mount yourself)
4) valve adjustments (can be done with the valve cover gaskets)

Be sure that the smoke isn't also coming from a leaking Power steering pump.

beatsme

Thanks Chojun,

This is very helpful. I'll call the dealership and ask. I'll probably do the timing belt and replace the valve cover gasket along with the other things you have suggested in #1 and #2 below. If money was not an issue I'd do all four (and have the headlight replaced---it's been out for over a year).

I just worry that I'll get rear-ended the very next day or the transmission will go out. Even a minor fender-bender would total the car.

This car has been very dependable for me. Other than a dead battery in my driveway, it has never ever let me down. I don't know if I'm living on borrowed time or it the maintenance I've had done is paying for itself. I would happily keep driving it for another five years if it continues to run.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. You are the best!

Iggy

I would recommend not going to the dealership for maintenance(unless it's warranty work), they will rake you over the coals. Find a local independent shop that sees a lot of imports.

My .02$

Chojun

I agree. Find an independent mechanic first. Sometimes Honda/Acura dealerships will run specials on timing belts and will drop the price a couple hundred, but it'll still be in the $900+ range.

If money's tight then one thing you could do to break up the payments would be to buy the parts first and when you can afford it, take them to the mechanic for the labor.

Pair of TLs

Why don't you fix the headlight?

beatsme

Thanks everyone.

I called an independent shop that was recommended in another post on this site. The shop is all former Honda/Acura dealership guys. Said to drop the car off after hours and it will be ready the next afternoon. Prices for most services are posted on their website.

The timing belt replacement including the water pump, tensioners, etc., is $645 (and it includes the camshaft O-rings---no clue what that is, to be honest, but it is included).

If the oil seal is leaking, they will replace all of them (including the pan seal(s)) for $300.

Transmission fluid replacement is $69.

And the valve covers (both) and adjustment is $250.

I will wait to see what they say about the motor mounts. Hopefully one or both of the mounts is close to something they will be working on anyway. If not, I will probably defer replacing those.

Pair of TLs, the reason I leave my headlight burned out is because you have to take the whole bumper off to get to it and it is the wiring (ballast, igniter or whatever) that is not working. OEM parts for that is about the same price as the timing belt service. And the bulbs are $100. I always turn on my headlights when I drive the car so this is probably the only part or system in the car that is actually abused (by me) due to overuse. It doesn't make sense to me to repair it because of the cost and because I don't drive at night that much anyway. The last time I replaced a bulb, my teenager's grandfather helped us do it (meaning he did all the work) in his front yard. Where I live (downtown Atlanta) we aren't allowed to work on our cars or the HOA will send out a citation ($500 per offense). I've gotten the stink eye for helping jump a neighbor with a dead battery.

If there was someone local who does HID conversion, I would probably to that route when finances permit. Or maybe not.

I'm making payments on a 2017 Honda Civic for my teenager. I just need this TL to give me a few more years if possible and, if it is still running when that car is paid off, I will keep driving the TL.

Chojun

If they do a transmission fluid replacement for $69, that sounds like a good deal. Just be sure that they're using Honda DW-1 fluid (don't let them use a 'compatible' fluid). Also, do *NOT* allow them to flush the fluid. It could destroy your transmission. Low-pressure fluid exchange or 3x drain/fill *only*.

The only motor mount that will be in the area of their work is the side mount, which isn't really known to go bad as much as the front and rear.

Removing the front bumper is super easy. The hardest part is disconnecting/reconnecting the fog lights. Definitely *don't* replace your headlight components with OEM - they're flawed, expensive, and go bad quickly.

beatsme

Thanks Chojun.

The shop owner happened to be the one who answered my call. He initially told me to wait to do the timing belt replacement because of the mileage and previous replacement in 2011. When I mentioned that I was worried because the oil seal was leaking, the conversation changed. If it weren't for this forum, I wouldn't have known to mention it. Based on the conversation I had with the owner, I can see why his shop has such high ratings and was recommended on this board.

"Removing the front bumper is super easy." Ha, ha, ha. The day we actually attempted this, I realized I don't have the patience to deal with it. Teenager had a blast with grandpa though.

Pair of TLs

Agree--Don't buy Honda/Acura bulbs--You can pick up a pair for half the cost at any parts store.
If you found a good shop, mention everything when you take it in and since you're spending bucks, they should do a complete inspection free and make similar recommendations to what the guys here said.

BTW, that's a GREAT price for a timing belt/water pump/seals R&R job.

beatsme

Hey Chojun, Iggy and Pair of TLs,

The shop sent me these pictures.

What are they?



beatsme

Chojun

Thanks for the pics!

And wow, what a mess! Is your front main seal leaking?

beatsme

I have no idea. Does it look like it was leaking from the pictures?

Chojun

I'm not an expert on that, that's why I was asking.

beatsme

Okay, I'll ask the shop owner when he calls back.
Turns out he had me mixed up with a different lady who brought in the same car last week for a quote. I think she must have scoffed at the prices he quoted her. He was making the point that it is the labor that you are paying for (so he was sending the pix to show what was involved in breaking down the car for these repairs). Thanks to you guys on the forum I was well aware of that---all the labor and headache---but the pictures sort of freaked me out (because it looks like my engine is exploded all over the place). I have no qualms with the price he is charging, I'm just worried there is more stuff wrong with my car.
He is also replacing the hose to the steering (pump?) at no cost, which is very nice. He mostly mentioned replacing a lot of seals and then they will be moving on to the valve gasket cover(s) and the valve adjustment. And the car may not be ready until tomorrow morning.
So far, so good.
All I can tell you (from looking at the car and driving it everyday) is that there was oil seeping out of a bunch of places at and near the valve gasket cover and I kept having to spray it down with Windex and water to clear the grime away and keep it from smoking under the hood all the time. But it was never dripping significant amounts of oil on the pavement.

Anyway, ask any questions you want. I'll write them down, ask the owner and report back.

Chojun

Which power steering hose? If it's the high pressure hose then he's being _very_ nice to you and you've found a fantastic mechanic.

The pics look intimidating but basically (from the top image) you're looking at the passenger side of the engine through the wheel well. The pump assembly, filter unit and oil pan is removed, along with the timing belt and etc components. Your P/S pump and P/S fluid reservoir is removed also. Actually after looking at the pic again it looks like he's replacing a P/S return hose for you, which is not as involved but still pretty nice for him to do. He also had to drop the exhaust J Pipe to get the oil pan off. Your side engine mount is removed. Your (new? old?) timing belt is lying on your engine trim pieces. I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary other than yes, it's a lot of work.

Pair of TLs

VERY nice guy. Plus, with all the things he's pointing out and replacing is the right way to do it--it's all apart, so NOW is the time.
I'm assuming he's going to clean all the parts before reassembly so you can easily spot any future leaks, and clean off the underside...
If this guy does all this, keep him on your contacts list.

beatsme

Hey Y'all,

The owner called back this morning at 8:30. I found out he used to work at the dealership where I bought my TL, had it serviced for years and where they good-willed the transmission in 2011. Small world.

My TL is ready to go. They pressure washed the engine and inspected the rest of the car. Total cost for transmission fluid service, timing belt, water pump, valve adjustment, all those seals and gaskets, oil, coolant and a few other things was a little over $1300. I'll try to post the invoice later.

There were a few additional problems. Something was wrong with the radiator cap, there is a spring somewhere in the cap that migrated somewhere else it wasn't supposed to be. They fished it out and put it back the way it is supposed to be but recommended the cap be replaced. I asked them to please go ahead and put a new one on there (though the owner assured me it was something I could do myself and encouraged me to do just that). I also asked them to put in new wiper blades if that isn't a problem (it wasn't).

Other issues they found:

My nice Michelin tires (purchased in July 2011) have plenty of tread left but are showing dry rot.
Also the rear brake pads (last serviced in July 2014) are getting thin so there is that.
Anyway, he said I should probably replace them (tires and brake pads) in the next six months.
You can probably guess where I will be taking my TL to have that work done!

And I guess my burned out headlight is a lost cause because that never came up.

Chojun, I forgot to ask about the front seal and whether it was leaking but I'll try to remember to inquire when I pick up the car.

You guys have been a terrific source of information for me over the last week so I wanted to thank each of you. I am very grateful.

If someone can tell me how and where (if it is appropriate) to post my recommendation for this shop on the forum, I will do it. This shop does not advertise. They rely solely on word-of-mouth and I'm happy to give them a glowing recommendation.

Chojun

No worries, he probably would've said something if it were bad.

I'm curious to know if it feels any different after the valve adjustment.

beatsme

beatsme

08KBP_VA

Great prices and dont think I can ever say Ive seen hourly rates that crazy low EVER. Unfortunately its over 11 hours too far south for me to use.

beatsme

08KBP_VA,

I'm sorry to hear that and I wish you were closer. Even the independent shops inside the perimeter (I-285 in Atlanta) charge close to dealership rates. The dealerships are all outside the perimeter so it's usually a hike to get there (but you do get a loaner).
It was well worth the $60 I paid for Lyft to pick me up and drop me off both times.
When I was dropping my car off (you leave your keys in a drop slot) on Sunday night, there was a couple with NC tags dropping off a Honda SUV for the timing belt service. Now I know why. These are very competitive rates.
But I'm still going to have to fix my headlights myself.

Chojun

I was just going to say that 49.50/hr is a STEAL. You've found a great shop. At those prices I'd be tempted to leave a tip

Pair of TLs

Told ya this guy was a keeper!

His hourly rate is from the '80s! Outrageous prices on the shop supplies and disposal fees, though--jk.
You couldn't walk out of any shop around here with a bill for less than $2K...

Leave a tip is right! Maybe have a case of donuts delivered. Darned tootin' I go back there, too!

beatsme