WaterGuy

I feel violated. Please tell me - should I? I sat down Wednesday with Tischer Acura (in Laurel, MD) with checks in my hand to buy my TL-S w/Navi. I signed a contract on a price we negotiated A MONTH AGO, and I've waited to have the car factory built (since it's NGP). But no! My salesman says to me, "There's a problem with the price..."

Here's the whole story: I thought I played everything right. I waited until the very last day of June and told Tischer Acura to beat a price I was quoted elsewhere: $31,400. I was very clear to my salesman that the price included type-S, Navi, *and tax and tags.* He talked to his boss and said he'd offer all that + mud flaps and sun visor for the same price (31,400). I made him repeat everything very specifically. The next day at the dealership, my salesman was busy so his friend filled out the contract that I signed (Mistake #1). (That friend has since been fired...) I'm 22 and this if my first car buying experience, and I didn't know to have the dealer sign the contract too and give me a copy. I thought it was just my obligation to them on paper. (BIG Mistake #2!!)

A month passes as they factory-order the Green TLS w/Navi, during which they were generally irresponsible about exact dates I'd get the car, etc. I talked with my salesman several times and even now I still like the guy, I must say. Finally I'm sitting at his desk to discuss payment and "there is a problem with the price. . . We can't sell you the car for just $31,400; but we'll give it to you for $31,400 + tax & tags = $33,000."

An hour-long vicious argument ensues. They claim the price we quoted a month ago would require them to sell the car for less than invoice ($31,050). They insist they pay Honda invoice for the car, so how could I expect them to take a loss? Knowing friends who buy cars for less than invoice elsewhere, I say "Bull****." They say, "But that's Honda and Toyota - they're different. We don't have rebates, incentives, etc. This is ACURA."

I ask for the contract I signed. They say they threw it out!! "Why would we keep that?" But in front of them sits a bunch of papers with numbers clearly taken from the original contract, since no other written records of that agreement exist. I ask why they wait until NOW to tell me there's a problem. My salesman takes the blame, saying he forgot about the price until a couple days ago, when he looked at the price again and realized there was a "clear mistake." (I wish I had asked him then: If he threw out the contract, how did he remember the original price?)

My salesman offers me 7 days to shop around before I decide what to do. The sales manager (quite the mofo) says, "We could sell that car tomorrow if we wanted. You have to decide today." They give me a phone and #s of other Acura dealers and challenge me to check on the invoice price and other dealers' prices, since I won't get better than $33,000 anywhere. I tried to call their bluff about invoice prices by offering $32,000 or I'm gone, but they still don't bite. They call me a cab and let me walk out of there.

Maybe $33,000 is still a good deal - please tell me if you think so or not. Nevertheless, maybe on principle, I said "F- 'em", I'm not giving my money to people like that. I go to school in California, and I think buy my car there in September instead rather than drive one to CA from MD. I have to start car-shopping all over. But I didn't like green all that much anyway.

What do you think? What do I do? What should I think about such a dealership? Thanks!

WiLz

i say screw them. if they told u they'll sell it for 31400 then they shud sell it for 31400...jus buy ur car in cali, i'm sure there are lots of ppl who can recommend u to dealers here.

btw, if u didnt like the green? y did u factory order one?

phatratpak

Hey you should try chevy chase acura in Bethesda, md, they gave me a 31,026 OTD on my 2003 tl-s w/out navi. Why did you go to Tisch? so far away from chevy chase,.... if you do deside to go to Chevy Chase Acura let them know "Mike sent you" cuz I'll get a free oil change... that really sux what happened to you, best of luck....

GSB

I too say screw 'em. If you're not satisfied with the dealership and the price of the car, you will regret buying it down the road. This should be a happy exciting experience, especially for $30,000+.
Come out to Cali, let me know where, I just bought 2002 TLS no navi in Nor Cal, and you can get your new ride somewhere here on the Westside. Good luck, let me know if I can help you shop. I talked to at least 8 dealers in Cali.

GSB

StanMan

something isn't right if the out the door price is $31,400 for tl-s with navi. this means they are selling the car for like 2 to 3 thousand less than invoice! i paid that same price ($1000 over invoice) for my 2002 tl-s with navi but that was before tax/title/license. if you don't have the papers, then you don't have a case (i guess). just screw them and go buy elsewhere.

LiQiCE

Hey if you were quoted $31,400 elsewhere, why don't you just buy the car there?

I paid $32,000 before tax and tags for my NBP TL-S w/NAVI and OEM Spoiler / Moonroof visor, and I think most people paid around $31K-32K before tax and tags, so $31,400 with tax and tags sounds pretty unrealistic unless its w/o NAVI.

I live in the DC area and I did price comparisons from about 5 different dealerships in the area and I didn't get any quotes close to what you got ... It sounds to me like the dealership quoted you a BEFORE tax and tags price, not out the door price..

If its really the dealership's mistake then I think you should offer to buy the car from them at invoice price which is $31,010 plus tax and tags... Its really your call though. The dealership is right though, right now its probably a very rare occurance that a TL/TL-S ever sells below invoice price... thats because there aren't any rebates available right now and because the TL/TL-S sells pretty well by itself.. there isn't a lot of bargaining room for a TL/TL-S right now like there might be on a 2002 Accord since the 2003 new-body style Accords will be out in a few weeks..

Anyways, good luck with whichever decision you make ... Once you get the car, I think you'll love it!

MB-telecom

Invoice on a 2003 Acura TL-S is $31,010. The dealer holdback is roughly $1020 (3% of MSRP) in the dealer's pocket. The car costs them bare bones about $30,000. That is factoring in ZERO expenses. A good deal would have been $32,500 or so, provided you came in with your own financing. A GREAT deal would have been $32,000, but I don't know of anyone that paid that little on a 2002 or 2003 TL-S w/navi. You didn't get screwed by the price of $33,000; you got 'screwed around' by the dealership. Go elsewhere and then call the 'Zone' and complain about the dealership and their tactics.

If you are going to be in Cali for at least nine months of the year for the next 2 or more years while you are going to school out there, then it only makes sense to buy the car from a dealer that is right down the road from you. If you have problems they are right there!

RAdams

At this point even if they honored the original price I'd take my business elsewhere. Shady, shady, shady...

sssick

There is no way you will get a type S navi for 31,400 out the door. I think they were playing with you, they knew that they couldnt sell you the car for that price. Go somewhere else but you will not find a better price than that anywhere.

vperkins2

Unfortunately you're learning few hard lessons:

1. THE SALESMAN IS NOT THE ONE IN CHARGE. Get past them (or don't go through them) if possible. Speak to the Fleet Manager if possible. (Sorry if I'm offending any car salesmen out there!)

2. Get and keep a copy of anything you sign for your records.

3. I'm not a lawyer, but as an agent of the dealership, the saleman's signature *may* have been binding even though he didn't work there anymore (depending on what you two signed!).

4. $31,400 sounds like a damn good price for a TL-S w/Navi! CarsDirect had a price of $31,610 for the same car (in my Parent's zipcode; $32,160 for my zipcode!).

5. Post in the forum *before* you kill the deal! Yeah, it sucked that you couldn't get your OTD price... but we would have told ya that your price was probably too good to be true.

6. Cali's tax rate is about 7.75%. Are you thinking of buying it AND registering it in Cali? If so, make sure you buy extra lube! Cali takes a big piece of the action on new car sales (in my opinion).

Good luck with your next move!

V.

WaterGuy

Thanks to everyone who replied! I just joined A-tl.com, and it's nice to be welcomed.

I know now that $31,400 was just too good to be true & I should have been more suspicious a month ago when I signed papers for that price. Tischer definitely quoted 31,400 *including* tax+tags a month ago but probably "reconsidered" in the meanwhile. If only they had told me earlier! I stayed loyal to Tischer while overlooking Chevy Chase Acura (which is 5 mins. from me).

GSB -- I would be buying in NorCal (anywhere from Santa Clara to Marin County), and I'd appreciate any help you can give.

vperkins2 -- They activated my account too late to post before I decided to kill the deal! Despite the deal I could take, I feel fine walking away from people who treat me like they did.

2 more questions for everyone:
1) What does invoice price really mean to the dealers? How do holdbacks, incentives, and rebates alter their costs?
2) Will the new '03 Honda Accord's release really lower prices for TL's next month?

vperkins2

That's cool. Can you get that deal at another dealership? If so, I say go for it!

V

Jason J

I figure you should be able to get a TL-S with navi for high $31's. Look at it this way. I actually just leased mine, and in leasing terms, the selling price is called the capitalization cost. Same thing, just different terms. My 03 TL-S <i>without</i> navi had a cap cost of just over $28k. I shopped around like crazy and got quotes from over 50 dealerships online, and then concentrated on 10 or 12 dealers within 200 miles of me. I did it within a few days of the end of the month, and think I got a smokin deal.

Anyways, if you add 7% tax to the cap cost (aka selling price), you come to just under $30k. If you add the navi system to that, and negotiate a better deal on it than the rediculous $2100 retial price, you theoretically could be out the door for $31,600 to $31,900, depending on time of month, dealership, location, sales, etc.

The biggest thing - you can't let your emotions take over. Stand your ground and don't budge from your realistic price goal. If they won't work with you, don't give them any more than 5 minutes of your time. Just walk out - if they stop you, maybe they'll come down. If they don't, screw em.

Hope this helps.

Jason

StanMan

from what i understand, dealer holdback is the amount of money the mfr gives the dealership to take care of the car before it is sold...washing supplies, paying people to wash the cars, gas, etc. the quicker they sell the car, the more they keep. then there are incentives for selling cars which no one knows really. finally, i think bigger dealers get better deals when they buy stock so it's possible they get cars for less than invoice. granted that is free money, but it's really not yours either. paying right at invoice is great, a little over is cool too, but i doubt you can really get any dealership to sell under invoice (unless they are desperate or crazy).

eddiemac

$31,400 +tax&tags is a good deal. I purchased my TL-S from Tischer last August for $32,100+tax & tags. Since that time the deals have gotten better. If they told you a total price of $31,400, they should have given you a sales slip with the deal spelled out. If they did not, then it is your word vs theirs. Wherever you decide to buy, make sure EVERYTHING is in writing and understood by all before you sign. good luck.

kcroberge

Hi. I got screwed over by Tischer too. I too ordered a NGP TL-S with navi because they did not have one. My base price was $32,245. I ordered it in March and was told that their allocation would come in in mid April.

Well mid April rolled around and no car. The story they gave me was that the factory changed their order and sent them a different color. They would now not get one until mid May. Since I couldn't find another NGP around I waited alittle bit. At the end of April they asked me if I would authorize an on-line trade with another dealer. I said why wouldn't I? They came back in a couple of days and said they found a delaer that would trade with them, for one of theirs. But it wouldn't come in until mid May. They never did answer my question that if the trade wasn't going to come in until their allocation, then why trade? Looked to me like they lied about the delivery again.

About that time I found a NGP TL-S with navi at Rosenthal Acura in Gaithersburg. I sent an email, worked out the price, $31,540 and picked it up the next day. A much better experience. And they gave me $500 more for my trade than Tischer offered. All told I got out the door $1500 cheaper than at Tischer.

Tischer was pissed when I cancelled my order. I said that they couldn't deliver so I went elsewhere. They supposedly called Rosenthal the day before and tried to trade with them, but Rosenthal wouldn't. They said that authorizing the on-line trade was a committment from me to buy from them. They never laid that out in writing to me, and they couldn't show me that they did.

I did not feel bad walking away from them. You are better off that you did as well. It did take me 6 weeks to get my deposit back from them though. I was real close to having the credit card company dispute the charge.

Good luck wherever you end up.

By the way who was the guy that got fired?

asloudasitgets

hey i got a 2003 tl type s without navi
for 29,500

FTM-1

This area is full of ACURA DEALERSHIPS, shop around again & be clear as the deal you want & what they will give you. Make sure its in writting even bring in the sales Maneger if needed. We have Rosenthal ACURA in Rockvile MD,Tisher in Laurel, BETHESDA ACURA , ACURA WEST in Catonsville MD, Karen Radley in VA. Pohnaka ACURA VA. & some others. But all are a 40 mile distance or less.

DMan

Don't buy from Tischer. You'll always regret doing it if you don't get your original agreed price.

I got screwed by the finance manager/GM of Hubler Acura in Indianapolis. It wasn't very much money, but I'm still extremely upset with the whole deal. It bothers me so much that I actually take my car to a dealer 20 miles further away for all my service.
.

thephantom

$31,400 OTD is kind of low. If it's without tags and tax then it sounds about right.

hemants

At this point it is a matter of principle.

But since you have no written record you don't have much to go on except your word and your memory. Are you sure that there was no misunderstanding 1 month ago?

If you are certain there was absolutely no ambiguity then out of principle, you should take your business elsewhere and report the dealership to Acura. It won't amount to much but it's the right thing to do.

Of course, if you really need the car now or if the price elswhere is much worse, you may have to bite the bullet and just buy it.

I had a similar thing happen. I went to a dealership and got quoted a price that was $250 more than what I thought I could get it elsewhere BUT, they had the colour I wanted on the lot. Since I had to discuss the final decision with my wife I left and they let me walk out over $250.

The salesman called me back saying they could work something and my wife and I returned keeping in our mind that we would be willing to bridge the $250 gap if necessary.

When we arrived they made the price even higher and claimed to have lost the written offer they had presented me (yeah, right) !!! The other line they gave me was that the previous days price was given by the leasing manager and that the sales manager was ultimately in charge. What a bunch of cheap slimy used car salesmen!!!.

Needless to say, I took my business elsewhere and managed to negotiate a deal that was very close to the deal I wanted plus the $250 but more importantly, I was sooooo satisfied when the original salesman called me back and I told him where to stick it.

(BTW, that dealership was Terrace Gate Acura in Scarborough Ontario I have no hesitation in saying.)

Razer

31.4K out the door is LOOOOOOOOOW sounds like they forgot about the NAVI. I got mine for 33.5 OTD at Radley in Falls Church VA, with a spoiler. So 33K OTD sounds about right.. lowest I've heard them going around here (without "special" contacts) is 32.5K

bigman

tell them for that price to throw in all the stuff you said plus a body kit. My cousin shopped around to 3 different dealers and he paid 31,700 for an 03 ABP non navi with a body kit.

gruzyxl

WaterGuy - I don't think you got screwed at all, for one reason: you didn't pay more for something than you thought it was worth. Judging by some of the other responses, the $31400 might have been too low for what you were asking - I don't know. But based on the information you had at the time, and the contract you thought that you had, I think things seemed to be a fair deal to you.

One of the first rules of car negotiations that I learned was to be prepared to completely walk away from the table and take my business elsewhere. Sure, it is massively frustrating to not get something that you've had your heart set on. But what is worse - having the dealership *think* you are a fool for wanting the car for too low a price, or to have them *know* you're a fool for paying too much?!

Good luck in your quest for a good deal - it will be well worth the wait!

eggbert

answer to 1) check out http://www.carbuyingtips.com/ will answer most of your questions. Read the whole site. It's big.
Also:
http://www.fool.com/car/Buyingacar.htm?source=PRMPIN



.

raccoondeb

You don't say where in California you go to school, but I can tell you that I got my TL for $500 over invoice and all my accessories at dealer cost. Go to Acura of Concord and ask for Mark Ellison. Tell him Deborah sent you - I found him over the Internet and did all the business by e-mail and phone until the day I picked the car up. AND, I didn't negotiate - his offer was lower than I was going to try to get my local dealer down to. The local dealer couldn't match it, so I drove out of town to buy it from Mark. A great guy. Here's his e-mail address: mellison@hendauto.com.

rozello

I just got an '03 tls with navi at Rosenthal for 30.410. Tax and tags are extra. Call the dealership and ask for Jennifer the internet sales person. Ask her for her best price. If it is any more than the price above ask her again.

If she comes up with the price you want you'll be assigned a salesman. When dealing with the salesman be sure to tell him exactly what you don't want (e.g. insurance, sound proofing, rutst proofing etc.) You should be able to get some wheel locks thrown in.

Good luck and be tough with these guys. Let me know what happens.

yield2s

TO THE LAST TWO POSTERS CHECK OUT THE POST DATE ON BOTTOM OF LEFT HAND COLUMN.


08-13-2002 11:07 AM

if he hasnt bought the car by now he prob wont,hehe

Type S Lady

Even if you can afford the $33k I wouldn't wanted to do business with them. They are too shady. Walk away!

Twenty03 Type-S

I'd also have to say $31,400 w/o tax, etc. is about right. I got my 2003 Type-S without Navi for $28,500 so if the "price" of the Navi is $2k, you are (were) about where you should have been before taxes, etc.

rozello

I just paid 30410 for a TLS with navi. Tax and tags extra. I got it from Rosenthal acura in MD. Call Jennifer the internet sales person. Ask her for her lowest price it should be as low or lower than 30,410. Keep asking her for the lowest price if it's too high.

She will refer you to a sales person and then you deal with him/her. Don't let them sell you anything you don't need. I got the car and wheel locks for the 30410. Be tough and don't let them screw you. Rememeber you are in charge. You have the money. Once you sign then you no longer are in charge.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Raheel

If you can wait for the new 2004 TL, Or at least consider it

yield2s

*****THIS THREAD IS 11 MONTHS OLD GUYS*********

MoDzHuNgRy

You beat me to it.

Mr Hyde

Racoondeb, why did you bring this old post back up? With only 3 posts from over a year ago in this forum, he probably never even bought the car.