ZodiakTL

heh.. right, they say that it's not the fall that kills u, but the sudden stop against the concrete at the end of it

Fiddler

SteveB / Zodiak ...... dont start this again there is no winners in your arguments.. just drop it...

Steveb

It's not about who's the winner. It's about safety and common sense. : )

ZodiakTL

u can't really appeal to common sense if u, urself, at any given point have broken any moving code law, cuz then ur just a hypocrite. but, regardless, its all a matter of opinion IMO , so just don't go around insulting and putting down people who do things that u don't find to be right, if u dont think someone should drive that fast, just say 'i dont think u should drive that fast.' there's no reason (and this applies to all the people who made those type of remarks) to call someone an idiot or irresponsible - u've all done something stupid in ur life, and will continue to do so, no matter how old or mature u are

Mr.T

Hey Zodiak,
Did you ever clock your car with the STock tires for 1/4? Did you notice a big difference when switching to your new tires?

Mr.T

Road Rage

Jack Kevorkian.
Abortion on demand.
Moms leaving their kids to bake in their cars.
Creeps like Gary Condit.
Genocide in Serbia.
Infanticide in China.
Female genital mutilation.
These and so many other moral and ethical abominations create the fabric of the Great Issues before us.

As to this topic, I am of two minds.

The right side of my brain laments the breach of a basic social contract that we share in avoidng the reckless endangerment of those with which we share the road.

The left side of my brains says "Yeeee HAAAA!".

RUF87

First point - The guy taking off from a stop light that just ran into a train, bus, whatever.

Second point - True, no argument there.

But remember, speed is only the emotional part of this debate. It's reckless and or inattentive driving that is the real problem. Driving faster than a given situation calls for is the problem. So don't just get off on the speed aspect of the problem. Germany has fewer accidents on their Autobahns than the US has on it's Interstates per 100K miles driven. This inspite of its higher average speeds. Why? Because far more of their drivers obey the rules. While here in the US people are flying left and right, cut you off without a single thought of their actions. Trucks are all over the roads. I could go on, but it a fact because they take driving much more serious over there than we do over here. On average that is.

I also know this first hand having been on and driven on the Autobahns many of times over a period of years. It's also been posted many of times, but what you usually hear is about the 100 car pile up. That's as misleading as an airliner crashing killing all 208 people on board. Then people don't want to fly because of the fear. Yet far many more people die on the roads in their own cars.

I'll take driving for the rest of my life at 100MPH on a German Autobahn than 75MPH on a US freeeway any time.

RUF

Steveb

You're losing focus of the debate. I say speed kills and you say it doesn't. Even if you're the best driver in the world your chances of death increase with speed and that's a fact that has been proven. Just because we all do stupid things from time to time does not mean we can't state the facts.

Wouldn't you agree this statement you made is irresponsible?

"and again, "excessive" speed is very subjective. some people say 50, some say 80, others say no more than 110. i say u do what u feel confident doing. "

Most 16 y/o's feel like they are indestructible and are very confident. So going by your argument it's just fine for a 16 y/o who just got his license to drive 150mph as long as he feels confident.

Steveb

I think you're missing one significant point and that is it's more complicated driving high speeds on US hwys simply because traffic is moving slower. On the Autobahns people know to expect high speed traffic and drive accordingly.

"It's reckless and or inattentive driving that is the real problem."

I agree with that. However, inattentive driving happens to the best of us. Have you ever been in a wreck that was your fault? Maybe you partied to hard the night before. It's human nature
to be inattentive at times.

The traffic accident rate may not be higher on the Autobahn but what about the death rate per accident? That's the most important figure.

"I'll take driving for the rest of my life at 100MPH on a German Autobahn than 75MPH on a US freeeway any time."

Me too.: )

ZodiakTL

that statement is exactly what i am talking about. be smart about ur driving. if u partied too hard the night before, u should know better than to drive. if u feel exhausted, hung over or still drunk, u shouldnt be driving. take a cab or a bus. that is exactly the kind of hypocritical behavior that most of us are guilty of. u say that 16yr/olds think their invincible, but at least they are young and foolish. what is UR excuse for getting behind the wheel of car when u know ur not up to driving? ever seen some of the numbers they publish in the news on how many accidents there are due to drivers falling asleep behind the wheel? this is beyond the stupidity of drunk driving, at least the idiots who are drunk cant think straight. but there is absolutely no reason why u need to jeopardize ur life and that of others if u partied too hard. accidents can happen no matter what, but saying that speed kills... again, how fast is too fast? ur saying that the statement i made about driving at a speed comfortable for u is wrong, so then tell me, what should be the top speed that we can drive at? lets assume perfect weather, open highway, regular flow of traffic. what speed should be the limit?

and as much as i would love to drive on the autobahn, i can't really do that everyday, every week, or even every year, so i'm stuck here, and try to make it home everyday on our great nations highways

1SICKLEX

Speed does not kill.

But if you are gonna take the risk

1. Know HOW TO DRIVE.
2. Know what your car is capable and NOT capable of.
3. Do some research on high-speed driving.
4. Make sure your car is in top working condition.
5. Understand the HUGE RISKS involved.

I do not reccommend it at all.......

ZodiakTL

Mr. T,

I never clocked the TL-S, but i know that on my 00TL, when i had stock tires i raced fiddlers accord, and while he had stock tires, i took him by a carlength off the start every time. then he got pirellis, and he started taking my by a carlength, and in order to see that it was that much of a difference, i got identical tires for my TL, and once again i started taking him by a car length. so it did make a huge difference. all that power is useless if u dont get it to the ground.

Steveb

>>>that statement is exactly what i am talking about. be smart about ur driving. if u partied too hard the night before, u should know better than to drive. if u feel exhausted, hung over or still drunk, u shouldnt be driving. take a cab or a bus.<<<

How many people do you know are not going to drive because they have a hangover? In the real world you're not going to call a cab or make other plans for transportation. In theory you're right but it's just not realistic.

>>>u say that 16yr/olds think their invincible, but at least they are young and foolish.<<<

I don't understand your point. If they are young and foolish then they may take your advice to drive 150mph as long as they feel confident. The fact that they are young and foolish is not going to make driving with them on the HWY any safer. So having said that don't you think your statement was irresponsible?

>>>what is UR excuse for getting behind the wheel of car when u know ur not up to driving?<<<

If I feel I'm not in any condition to drive I won't drive. However, sometimes your mind wonders. Have you ever driven somewhere and didn't remember part of the trip? Have you ever been in an accident that was your fault?

>>>accidents can happen no matter what, but saying that speed kills... again, how fast is too fast? ur saying that the statement i made about driving at a speed comfortable for u is wrong, so then tell me, what should be the top speed that we can drive at? lets assume perfect weather, open highway, regular flow of traffic. what speed should be the limit?<<<

Let me clarify my answer. Speed is obviously not the only variable that can cause death. However, it's a major ingredient along with drunk driving, stupid drivers, etc. Speed kills, drunk drivers kill and stupid drivers kill. Remove the drunks and the idiots and your chances of killing yourself still increase with speed.

You have to use common sense when deciding what speed is too fast. For most people that drive in America 150mph is way to fast. You're trying to say since most people drive 5, 10, 15 mph over the speed limit then why not 75 mph over the speed limit. If we all had the attitude, since everyone breaks the law a little why not seriously break the law, then what kind of society would we have? That's why we have higher penalties for more serious crime. Everyone takes risk but there's a point where common sense kicks in and for the vast majority of people that's well below 150mph.

: )

Guest

Steveb writes..

"You have to use common sense when deciding what speed is too fast. For most people that drive in America 150mph is way to fast."

Let's face it guys, there aren't too many roads in the US that are safe for 150mph. NJ is better than most, but most interstate segments aren't safe for much more than 90mph even when there's no traffic!!!

Guest

C'mon now, you aren't seriously trying to argue that speed should be determined by each driver independently, depending on how "confident" a person is with his car??? What you are arguing against is the very basis of our society. We have rules for the safety of all. Why not go through a stop light if YOU think its safe? Why not kill the guy who scratched your car? Sure, we are all guilty of speeding to some extent, but I won't argue that when I did it I was in the right. That is what you are trying to say isn't it? I agree that some can speed more responsibly than others but that still doesn't make it a responsible act.

Stork

ZodiakTL

what i'm arguing is what defines it as being irresponsible. what annoys me is when people say that it is, but then say that we've all done it sometimes. if u do it, u have no right to condemn people who do it, even if they wanna do it on a regular basis. i'm not saying neone here who drove 100, 130 or 150 does so every time, but if u did it even once, u cant tell others not to do it, or that its irresponsible. it has to be at the discretion of the person, based on what he thinks his car can do and what road conditions are like. i'm not making this statement on a legal basis, but on the basis of our argument. if u wanna start getting into legal arguments (which i'm not too familiar with,) how bout just saying that neone who kills another person should be found guilty? but it doesnt work that way in our society. there are always exceptions, whether its evidence of this or that, or good lawyers, or extraordinary circumstances. my opinion is that, if i feel confident in my ability (reaction time, awareness and all else) and i'm sure that my car can do it, and i have the room to do it on an open highway with good roads, i will do it whenever i'd like to. does that mean that if cop stops me i'll be explaining this to him? no. he couldnt care less. but we are debating the point of whats going too fast to be safe. and Steveb, if a 16 year old decides that he can go 150 and gets killed, then thats how it will be. and it will be the same for 35yr old and a 60yr old. its their call. the person knows what kind of risk he's taking, and nothing u will say will change that. how many people here dont buckle up? i'm sure more than would care to admit. so dont preach sensible driving unless u practice it, and thats almost impossible unless u say u are driving speed limit every single time. oh and btw, the car is so important in this case, because i would never find myself arguing this in my buick (which was scary to take to 70mph) or even the maxima which started getting shaky at 85. what i find in my car, is that people have the same reaction - ur going 100? it only feels like 60. and many others here have made the same statement, that they find themselves going 70 before even realizing that they are moving any faster than normal. so it really depends on condidtions. our speed laws at this point in time are designed to make money, not to prevent accidents.

gohawks63

Sure, we are all guilty of speeding to some extent, but I won't argue that when I did it I was in the right. That is what you are trying to say isn't it? I agree that some can speed more responsibly than others but that still doesn't make it a responsible act.

I agree. Even though I posted earlier that I've hit triple digit speeds, I cannot defend it by saying I was safe. I may have tried to minimize the risks by doing it on a desolate road, but as someone else pointed out, it still doesn't account for the blow-out, stray animal crossing the road, or any other unforeseen circumstance.

The fact that I have a family only magnifies the issue since my actions could result in children without a father and a widow to raise those children.

Now with that said, I like to drive fast, but admittedly reaching 125mph is something that I've done only a handful of times and as I get older, I'm not as "young and foolish". In addition, as you get older you realize that you're not as invincible as you think you are when you're 16.

Trust me, I've had my share of accidents in my early driving years and I grew up with two brothers so you can understand why my parents drove beaters until we all had our own cars. My brother was also involved in an accident where a bicyclist dashed out in front of him and was killed. He was completely cleared due to the fact that he wasn't speeding (according to the skid marks, he was actually going under the limit), and witnesses came forward to the police stating that there was absolutely nothing that my brother could have done. The guy came out of nowhere and my brother simply was in the wrong place at the wrong time. None of that really matters to the person who died.

My point in all of this is that many of us speed, maybe some can handle it better than others, but let's not kid ourselves when we say it's OK to do it.

SoundSpeed

What kind of charges and jail time would your brother have faced if it was found he had been speeding?

gohawks63

I'm guessing vehicular manslaughter, although I'm not sure. The cops (Chicago) were great. Two of them came to visit my brother later that night to see how he was (he was devestated) and assured him that there wasn't anything he could have done.

Keep in mind though, since my brother was a minor, if he had been committing any violation, my dad would have been screwed from a civil lawsuit standpoint. I think at the time my dad was carrying $100,000/$300,000 liability. If my brother was found to be grossly negligent, that kind of liability coverage would have been nothing. They could have put a lien on our house.

Even though he wasn't not assigned any blame, they still sued. The insurance company lawyer told us not to worry, but my brother and my dad still needed to give a deposition. I guess since they didn't have much of a case, they took a minor settlement from the insurance company rather than risking going to court.

That's why my policy limits are at $500,000 and I carry supplemental insurance up to a $1,000,000. You just never know.

This was close to sixteen years ago and my brother still tenses up when he sees bicyclists driving on the street.

ZodiakTL

glad to hear it all worked out for u then... but that just goes to show, stupid people are everywhere, not just behind the wheel of the car.