JeffNY

Thanks Paul....I believe we will find the processor to be an "embeded" type....but it appears C is a common language for these type processors too. We probably can't get our hands on the source code but it should be easier to read than if it was assembler or machine code.

We need someone who has a backup copy of a DVD I could borrow....anybody out there? You could even send it to me anonymously if you want (my email address is on the web page). Again, it IS legal to use it for "testing purposes"...and I can't use it anyway without a DVD drive right? And if we get something working Alpine/Acura can sell more DVD's.

And if anyone from Alpine is reading this, email me the complete tech specs Ok? That would really help :p Thanks Alpine...

Jeff

Prez808

Awesome thread! Why isn't this a sticky already?

JeffNY

The HD software page has been added to the web site and I added a page on PCMCIA readers....yesterday I started a page on how to remove your HD Nav computer too.

As always, send me any additional info or corrections you see that need to be made.

Jeff

JeffNY

I had hoped to have more info compiled on the HD Nav Computer hardware this week, but I got busy. But I am continuing to work on this...

If only we could get Honda/Acura/Alpine to help out in supporting 5GB hard drives. I understand they can't support this "officially". For a number of reasons. But it could go a along way in showing they support the people who buy their products...and they could make MONEY selling more DVD's.

I'll even host any software "patches" or installers on my web site FREE OF CHARGE for anyone who wants it.

How about it Acura? Email me....I won't even tell anyone you did if you don't want me too (...in case you don't want to have to deal with a ton of people lobbying you for help upgrading their HD systems).

As far as Fat32 support goes (if we don't currently have it) there may be a couple work arounds (I can think of at least two right now)...

Jeff

JeffNY

Apparently I was confusing hard disk "drivers" with FAT tables, so even if a hard drive has only one "driver" you can use a different FAT table on each partition of the drive (I was trying to see if we could use two "drivers", one FAT16 and one FAT32 on each partition...but that may not be necessary), read on.....

http://www.duxcw.com/faq/win/ntfs.htm
"You can put multiple NTFS, FAT32, and FAT16 partitions on a hard disk and Win 2000 and XP can access all of them and move files between them. Win 95 OSR2/98/Me can do the same with FAT16 and FAT32 partitions, "

.....sooooo, IF we can't use FAT32 now maybe on a 5GB hard drive we could do a tiny (10MB) partition that uses FAT16 to do an initial boot up to add FAT32 support...by loading the FAT32 support file to RAM...then change some system globals and add some address traps so the 4.99GB partition becomes the default drive (using FAT32)...then have the system finish by booting the DVD software on the 4.99GB (FAT32) partition and our HD system now boots up thinking it's running on a DVD system. Please, please, no applause, please....

Another way is to partition the 5GB drive into 8 or 9 (FAT16) partitions...then modify the map app to access each separately. There may be a way to make the separate partitions look like one big drive to the map software too.

ALSO: Even FAT16 supports drives up to 2.1GB (4 times as big as the 520MB Calluna). So we format a 5GB with the first partition 2.1GB...then at a minimum maybe we can put up to four or five map areas on that partition...

Jeff-

JeffNY

Ok, additional info. Upon further reading I realized DVD disks do not use FAT32 (or ISO9660 used on CDROM). They use UDF. UDF support must be in the ROM in the Acura DVD Navi systems.

Do the DVD drives used in the DVD Navi systems support DVD-9 (single sided, 2 layer 8.5GB) disks? Not sure yet, I suspect some drives made in 2000 or 2001 may not. Does anyone know?

At any rate, DVD-5 disks have an actual formated capacity of 4.7GB I believe. The Toshiba 5GB PCMCIA drives have a formatted capacity of 5GB.

So, we can make the first partition up to 300MB and format this partition as FAT16. The second partition would be 4.7GB and use UDF (are there PC apps to let us format this second virtual drive as UDF?). We now copy the DVD map disk this "drive".

Now we get a copy of the ROMs used in the DVD computer and put this ROM image on the 300MB drive....a startup app would load this ROM (or parts as needed) to RAM...then the startup app makes whatever changes are needed to get the system to use the "virtual DVD drive" we have in the second partition and finish booting up. We now have full U.S. coverage.

With a little help from American Honda we could have something working very quickly.

Jeff

JeffNY

Why should Acura or American Honda help us? Well, first because we are great guys who like and buy their products. Isn't that enough reason. No?

Ok, Ok...how about this reason; there are how many Navi '99 TL's and RL's out there? 50,000? 60,000? If Acura could send most of them a letter (they have most of us in their database) saying "Now you can upgrade your navigation system to have FULL U.S. coverage for only $479.95! And with the upgrade you will be able to use some future DVD updates (if you have your own computer and card reader)"

Lets face it, how many people buy the HD map updates? And who's going to drop $1300 to $2000 for a DVD unit? Here is a chance for Acura to not only support it's loyal customers but make some easy money.

Acura should offer two options:

Option 1. A 5GB drive with all software pre-installed, a copy of the current DVD map disk and a CDROM with the "installer" software (so you can install future DVD updates yourself). With this option the local Acura dealer installs the drive for you and makes sure it works (a 5 minuet job), then presents you with your old drive (to use as a backup) and your DVD and CD disks. The "Total Luxury Care" option. Then rings your credit card...

Option 2. A software kit with a copy of the current DVD map disk and a CDROM with the "installer" software so you can install the software yourself for maybe $200 (you provide your own 5GB PCMCIA drive). The "installer" would probaby even fit on the DVD map disk itself...but then Acura couldn't charge extra for it.

Either option gets the buyer into the dealership where they can offer other parts and service and show them the new models...more $$$

Of course any one who belongs to this forum should get a steep discount....and mine should be free heehee

Now are you interested Acura? You sell CD Changer upgrades and all kinds of other things...why not navigation upgrades? $$$

Oh, and can you get Canada on the map? A lot of us in the Northeast travel to Canada to vacation...Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island.....THIS is when you need this thing.

Jeff

JeffNY

Did you guys at Acura do the math yet? If even just 500 people buy the upgrade your looking at MILLIONS $$$$...for an investment of almost nothing.

JeffNY

I think I found a way to get a copy of the ROMs in a 2000 DVD Navi computer. We just need an old 500MB to 2GB ATA/IDE 3.5" hard drive. That drive should have the same data and power connectors as the DVD drive. We format it as UDF and put an app on there that will run at boot up to search for the ROMs then copy them to the hard drive. We start the car, wait 10 seconds then turn it off. We now remove the hard drive from the car....which now has a copy of the ROMs....we then install the drive in our computer to retrieve the ROM files

Any of you guys out there got a 2000 TL Navi your willing to open and take pictures of (so we can see if it has the same motherboard as our HD systems)? And let us copy the ROMs? If a bunch of us put up $20 bucks each it might be worth your while...

Jeff Jeff810095@aol.com

Davediego

well first off i believe UDF is just a burning format, i could be wrong but ive never been presented with the option to format a partition in UDF. secondly i doubt the hard drive navi will have support for reading UDF in the rom, so we would need some method to flash its rom. thirdly why bother with formatting a hard drive with difficult file formats and not just stick a dvd drive in? IDE dvd drives are VERY cheap these days, cheaper than even a 5gig HD. then you could just use a navi dvd directly

keep up the great work

JeffNY

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the input;

>>i believe UDF is just a burning format, i could be wrong but ive never been presented with the option to format a partition in UDF.<<

I believe UDF is a system level disk format and file system like FAT32 or HFS on the Mac. You would not normally be presented with this option on a PC or Mac when formatting a disk, but utilities exist to let you format a disk UDF:
http://www.softarch.com/us/products/ddtu.html

>>secondly i doubt the hard drive navi will have support for reading UDF in the rom, so we would need some method to flash its rom.<<

Not necessarily. You can have the support in a file on the hard drive and then load it to RAM at boot up. Like your PC or Mac does with a lot of code.

>>thirdly why bother with formatting a hard drive with difficult file formats and not just stick a dvd drive in?<<

Well, that'd be great. But you have to mount the drive someway and somewhere, and we aren't sure we can put an ATA connector on the motherboard to connect a DVD drive too. Further, if you did that you >>definitely<< would need UDF support in ROM because the HD would be gone (unless you left both connected and the ROM code supported Master/Slave devices). That means making new ROMs and replaceing them (surface mount) on the motherboard. Something only a pro should do. And that will cost money.

>>IDE dvd drives are VERY cheap these days, cheaper than even a 5gig HD. then you could just use a navi dvd directly<<

A (cheap) DVD-ROM drive can probably be bought for about $40 these days. But the total cost to burn and replace the ROMs and mount a connector (and then hope you don't damage your motherboard), then try and mount the drive somewhere (and we're not even sure the hardware will support it) and try and cut a slot in the plastic....not many people will do it.....using a 5GB PCMCIA drive and a software solution I think is a more practical way to go in the long run. And has a better chance of working. But if we can find any way to do it I'm open minded and will listen...

>>keep up the great work<<

Thanks, will do

Also, my Type III adapter came Wedensday. So I could access the hard drive. I've been looking at the files. NavTech appears to use the sifplus format for the map data. This place has a free PC "viewer" (Geographic Explorer) that may show the maps from our systems. Anyone want to try?
http://www.bluemarblegeo.com/index.php
...think it was 4.8MB. I didn't have time to download it yet. I'm trying to find more info on the sif format...

I think the system generates the map on the LCD in layers, first the geographic layer, then roads go on top of that, then street names and place names on top of that...

I'm still trying to track down what type CPU this has. I still think a ARM or MIPS embeded derivitive...can't prove that though...I want to see what type C compiler was used to write the apps on the HD. Alpine isn't going to develp their own compilers or software tools, that makes no sence. If, for example, we know MetroWerks C was used then we really narrow down the list of what type CPU is....Alpine is using their own part numbers to hide the fact. But there are ways to figure it out. I'm also asking around to people who may know... (BTW I found some embeded CPUs even have LCD screen support on-chip...don't know if this one does or not yet)

Best,
Jeff-

JeffNY

Paul,

Can you test something for me? Your SE region only takes up about 350MB did you say? Can you set up one of your PCMCIA drives with TWO partitions? One, say, 400MB and one 120MB? Then put your map data on the first partition and see if it boots and works using the first partition? You may have to format both partitions as FAT16, think I read somewhere FAT32 can only typically be installed on 500MB+ partitions.

But if we can set up two partitions and have the machine boot off the first FAT16 partition we'll know we have a way to bring the machine up with a two partition 5GB drive. If we can do that we have a path to boot the machine and load in any necessary software to use the DVD map data, then configure it to work like a DVD machine.

I'd try it myself but my Navi is still out of my car...and my spare drives won't be here until Monday or Tuesday.

Oh, and Acura did confirm new HD maps will be available this month.....yawn....we want FULL US COVERAGE ACURA!!!!!

Jeff-

JeffNY

Oh, and if Acura INSISITS on not supporting HD Navi users with support for 5GB drives why don't they sell the map regions on a CD set or DVD disk so owners can install their own regions as needed? I know some people won't know how to do it, but a lot of us do.

Hey, if I had a software program that let you guys install the map data from the DVD onto a 5GB PCMCIA drive and use it would you pay $40 to $60 bucks for it? I'm not looking to make money on this, but if I know people who could make this work we'd have to make it worth their while to work on this...

Who's interested?

Jeff

JeffNY

Hello All,

I have decided to stop posting to this thread and "publishing" my efforts to get our '99 HD Navi units to use more map data. While it appears a lot of people are reading the thread, it has generated only a few posts by others. It appears there is not as much interest as I had hoped.

With what I have learned about our systems in the past few weeks it is quite clear to me that our systems are FULLY CAPABLE of handling much larger hard drives and map data (upto 2GB without any "software tricks"...and most likey 5GB and larger drives).

The only thing at this point keeping it from happening is ACURA. I still don't understand why they will not even sell a CD set (or DVD disk) with all map regions. At a minium they should offer that and a software utility (or tell us how to do it) so we can have 2, 3 or 4 map sets on a larger hard drive. They could do this for almost no invesment, and they would sell more map sets. They should also offer Canada maps. Navtech has the maps for sale for other car makes right on their web site!

I am very dissapointed Acura refuses to support this product with nothing more than a map update every 2 years. They don't even have a web page with update info and a GIF showing the map regions available! Navtech has a graphic showing their CD sets on there web site that almost matches our map sets (plus Canada). All they gotta do is edit it in PhotoShop!!! But I guess even that is too much to ask of Acura! I may add that to my web site...

I am going to work on this some more privately. I have a couple avenues I want to pursue. If I come up with any breakthoughs I'll post it. To those of you who emailed me and posted to this thread thanks for your interest. To Acura, thanks for nothing.

Jeff

JeffNY

I moved to Earthlink Cable, the web site has moved to:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/navi.html

ALSO, I may have found a source for DVD map data (for testing) and a DVD Navi computer, hopefully I can add detailed pics of the inside of one (and all the components on its' motherboard) to the web site...so we can compare CPU type, RAM and ROM sizes, ect. with the HD Navi computer.

You know who you are out there....Thank You!

Jeff-

JeffNY

Oh, I also recently found photocopies of the Acura manual that shows (graphically) the HD ('99=>) map regions. I will try and scan them shortly and add them to the web site. Think my dealer was kind enough to copy the pages from the manual for me a while back when I asked if he had any "maps" showing the coverage areas....too bad Acura still doesn't have these images on their web site somewhere.

Acura Dealer Good......Acura Inc. Bad

JeffNY

I added the "Database Coverage Area" maps to the web site...

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/...navi/maps.html

...from an Acura dealer manual

kfurrow

Has anyone actually upgraded the HD navi to the DVD version? If so, what was the procedure? I'm hoping that the DVD version main unit can simply be exchanged for the HD version.

paulmooney

Yes I've done it, it's easy if you can find one. I looked for a year before I found one at the price and condition I wanted.

More info here...
http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/99_acur...avi/index.html

Kamitsuna

I would kill for the nav files right now. I spend two days getting the dealership to put them on my drive then there was an error and it wont boot now it says to check the disk! UGH!!!!!!!